The conversation extends beyond scripture as Dr. Dobson and Dr. Getz address the pressing cultural shifts that challenge traditional roles and family structures. They offer wisdom on how individuals can remain grounded in their faith, despite societal pressures. With practical insights and personal anecdotes, this episode encourages listeners to reflect on their own lives and prioritize what truly matters, ensuring that the legacy they leave behind aligns with their deepest beliefs.
You’re listening to Family Talk, the radio broadcasting division of the James Dobson Family Institute. I am that James Dobson, and I’m so pleased that you’ve joined us today.
SPEAKER 02 :
As men, we need accountability, we need encouragement, and we need to model for our sons and daughters what it means to be a godly man. And wherever we are in process, that’s where we got to begin and move forward in our lives.
SPEAKER 01 :
Well, welcome to Family Talk with psychologist and bestselling author, Dr. James Dobson. I’m Roger Marsh. And today we’re continuing our conversation with Dr. Gene Getz. His landmark book, The Measure of a Man, 20 Attributes of a Godly Man, has inspired readers worldwide since 1974. That’s right. The 50th anniversary of that book was last year. Dr. Goetz founded the Fellowship Bible Church movement after spending two decades as a professor at Moody Bible Institute and Dallas Theological Seminary. He’s the author of more than 60 books and hosted the Daily Renewal radio program for 24 years. His crowning achievement, the Life Essentials Study Bible, features 1,500 principles to live by and over 250 hours of video teaching, making scripture accessible for a new generation. Dr. Goetz founded the Fellowship Bible Church movement Last time on the program, Dr. Dobson and Dr. Goetz began discussing what it means to be a godly man. And today, we’ll dive deeper into that conversation here on this special edition of Dr. James Dobson’s Family Talk.
SPEAKER 03 :
Gene, I loved our time together yesterday. We’ve got so much in common. But I want to go back to something you said. You brought it up right at the end of the program last time. that as you look back on all your accomplishments and the things that the Lord has done through you, that the one thing that you wish you could have done better is spend more time at home. You’re right. I don’t know very many people who are very successful in life, men in particular, who don’t feel that way. Billy Graham feels that way. Cliff Barrows told me he felt that way. Other great leaders in the church regret the fact that they let these years get away so quickly when your children are around your feet. And then you look back and say, man, as much as what I did was important and God led me to do it, I overdid it. Does that summarize what you were saying?
SPEAKER 02 :
Yes, I think so. And I’m just so thankful, Jim, for a wife. Elaine, love you. You’re the best thing ever came into my life. When I was working, for example, on that PhD program, I was teaching at Moody, and I was going out summers. I wrote a very lengthy dissertation. It took me six years to do it. And every spare moment I had, I was working on that. And Elaine would take those children, and she would go to the parks, and she would do things. And even on Fourth of July, I should have been out there. I was over in the office working on some stuff. But she always interpreted my heart and my schedule. Doesn’t excuse it, but she’d interpret that to the children. Dad wants to be here, but he can’t. I’m so thankful for that. But there came a point in time where I had to come to grips, Jim, with even my relationship with Elaine. Because when we went to Dallas after being at Moody… Boy, I just dug in and started over down there. Boy, just a heavy schedule. Now teaching at the graduate level. And I woke up one morning to go to work and to teach. And Elaine’s lying in bed and she said, Jane, I can’t go on this way. She said, I’ve been waiting all this time for you to be freed up. And she teases me. You would say, when then? When then? But she said, it’s not coming. And I faced the fact that she was really depressed about that. And boy, it got my attention. And I called the seminary and canceled all four classes that day. And I think that was the first time I’ve ever canceled any ministry ever. Like that. I said, I’ve got an emergency. I can’t be there. And I spent that day listening to her feelings. And as a result of that, we began to work through some literature, just learning how to communicate, learning how to share my understanding, prioritizing. And that was a great change point in my life. And I’m so thankful for that moment. You just described the story of my life.
SPEAKER 03 :
I was a student in a graduate school like you. I was working on a Ph.D. It took the measure of me. Talk about the measure of a man, which is the book you wrote. The pressures associated with that took the measure of me. When I graduated, when I got the PhD, the world opened up to me. I mean, all kind of things that would sound like I’m bragging to tell you about it. But national radio, national television, my books were all bestsellers. Dare to Discipline was my first book, and it sold four million copies. And I was running. Man, I was running. And I went 17 nights without being home on one occasion. And my daughter was three years old and my son was not yet born. And my dad, my good godly dad, who has always been a beacon. righteousness for me and he saw it happening and he wrote me a letter to change my life and he said I’m proud of what you’re doing and it’s wonderful to see the way God’s using you but I’ll tell you that when you sit where I am today and you look back, all these accomplishments that mean so much to you today are gonna be pale and washed out if you lose your kids. And I fear that your priorities are such that you’re not giving the time necessary to your daughter who’s growing up, this is a quote, in a world much farther gone into moral decline than the world into which you were born. And he said, I have observed that in this kind of world that if you don’t have time to pray for your kids, you run the risk of losing them. Boy, it shook me, Gene. I could cry about it today. It shook me. And it led to my leaving. USC School of Medicine and a plum of a position. I was doing research. I was loving it, but I was away from home too much. And we were doing this research in 15 major hospitals. I had to visit them twice a year. It just was not conducive to what I needed to do and be And I walked out of there, and that’s why I started a radio program, so I could stay home. But it was the same thing. But I almost made the biggest mistake of my life, but I didn’t.
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You know, we all need that. And when I think of Elaine and her faithfulness and her support and her encouragement – behind the scenes and I honor her as a pastor’s wife because in all the pastoral situations, I don’t ever remember her being criticized once. That’s the kind of wise woman she was. But not too long ago, we were at breakfast and she was sharing some prayer needs and I was in a hurry to get to the office and she looked at me and she said, Jane, I sense lately that you’re not prioritizing prayer. And, boy, I looked at her. You know, the first thought? I wrote a book on prayer. I said, you’re right. And I needed that because I was so busy doing – this had just happened six months ago. I thank God for a woman like that.
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Surely never let me lose sight of the priorities.
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She didn’t nag me about it, but it was always there. God knew what he was doing when he said to Adam, you need somebody to help you. Is that spelled out in your book, The Measure of a Man? We sure talk a lot about that, particularly the chapter Fathering God’s Way. You know, that’s a powerful concept. Because, you know, Paul said if you can’t manage your own family, how can you take care of the church of God? Right. I mean, that should be a priority. And so we deal with that and practical suggestions. This book was published 42 years ago.
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At least, yes. And more than a million copies have sold. It’s called The Measure of a Man, 20 Attributes of a Godly Man. And it’s obviously become a classic bestseller. And I ask you to… In all humility, explain what the explanation of this longevity is. Why is this book still out there on the bookshelves today?
SPEAKER 02 :
Well, as I said yesterday, I borrowed the outline from the Apostle Paul. Of course, we know where he got it directly from the Holy Spirit, both in his letter to Timothy and his letter to Titus.
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Why don’t you share those scriptures and the specific attributes that you found in the scripture and then wrote in the book, The Measure of a Man?
SPEAKER 02 :
Well, let me just give you the 15 from 1 Timothy. In Titus, there are more. Above reproach, a man of good reputation. The husband and one wife, which really means morally pure. Self-controlled, which means balanced in words and actions. Sensible, wise and humble. Respectable means a good role model. Hospitable, unselfish, generous. Able to teach, a capacity to communicate sensitively. Not addicted to wine. That means really not addicted to any substance. Not a bully. Not abusive, psychologically or physically. Gentle. Sensitive, loving, kind. Not quarrelsome. Not argumentative and divisive. Not greedy, which means not materialistic. Managed his own household competently. In other words, a good husband and a father. And of course, if you’re going to be a spiritual leader, not a new convert. because you can be lifted up in pride, but Satan will attack you. And then Paul says, a good reputation among outsiders and others with non-Christians. So those are 15 chapters. And then in Titus, you have some repetition, but you have some unique ones. And I pulled out five more from Titus to end the list. So there are a total of 20.
SPEAKER 03 :
And you wrote a book right out of that section.
SPEAKER 02 :
That’s right. And it grew out of a study I had with a group of guys where we took one of these a week. And we shared the responsibility. I led the first study. We looked at the Scriptures. Then we discussed how we could apply it, and then other men led, and I kind of folded into the group, even though I was their lead pastor. Started taking notes, and that’s when Bill Gregg walked into my office from Gospel Light. I showed him the outline, and I showed him the notes I was taking, and that’s when he said, Gene, I want this as a book. I had no idea it would become a book, and then that’s how I wrote The Measurable Man. You know, Gene, none of us is perfect.
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Not one of us. Only Jesus is perfect. Absolutely. And that list is formidable. It is formidable. What are the advantages of doing the best you can to follow that path?
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Well, it’s a process. And obviously one of the things, and I’ve gone over this list with many, many men. And one of the things I’ve said, don’t be discouraged. You know, don’t allow yourself to get down on yourself. I’ve had guys come up and say, you know, I’m a leader in the church. I think I ought to resign. And I’ve said, no, wait a minute. Maybe you shouldn’t resign. Maybe you should change. Let’s take a look at where you are. But, you know, when you look at this list, though, Jim, you could pretty much give a yes or no. We’re somewhere in process. But, for example, if I say, do you have a good reputation? Well, yes or no. You have a good reputation. Is there anything you’d like to do to build it? Are you morally pure? Well, I’m tempted, but I’m true to my wife. I’ve never cheated on her. Have I been tempted? Absolutely. But I want to be morally pure. That’s my goal. Are you self-controlled or temperate is another word that is used there. Does that mean… are you balanced do you go on tangents you know you keep your eyes on jesus where are you in that process are you respectable respectable simple i love that word by the way in the greek it’s cosmos from which we get our english word cosmetics and we use cosmetics to make ourselves look good well the word cosmos means that our lives should be like cosmetics to the gospel. And so this is a lifetime process. I mean, almost every one of these are goals you work at until Jesus takes us home. But in the meantime, we are to be transformed, and not conformed to the world, but transformed into the image of Jesus. So this is a profile of Christ. And we also have to understand you don’t do this alone. Absolutely. You do this in the power of the Holy Spirit. And with other members of the body because it’s really interesting because in Ephesians chapter 4, where Paul says, God has gifted the church, apostles, prophets, evangelists, pastors, teachers, equipped the saints to do the work of the ministry until we all come to the unity of faith, all, and measure up to the stature of the fullness of Christ. And the word measure is used right there. We’re to measure up as a body and as individuals. And by the way, the word for measure Measure in Greek is metron, from which we get metronome.
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Yeah.
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In music, standard. And so Jesus Christ is our standard. And through the power of the Spirit of God and encouragement from the body of Christ, as Paul said, every joint supplying, every part doing its work, the body builds itself up in love. So it is a corporate experience.
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Do you worry – about where Western men are today. I mean, you and I have lived long enough to see culture ebb and flow. And answering my own question, it feels to me like a lot of men are absolutely lost.
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It’s going down. A lot of it has been around for centuries. Imagine these guys converted out of their heathen lifestyles and they’re visiting prostitutes and And they got slave girls in the back room. And yet these men eventually began to follow Jesus. It’s incredible what Christ can do. And I sometimes say, you know, if these men could be converted out of that culture back there in the first century, can’t we stay out of it? One of the greatest challenges today for men is pornography. I mean, it is prevalent. And the statistics are scary. I think about my grandsons and their cell phones and phones. it’s everywhere it’s everywhere and it’s so and women are getting pulled into it and some of the comments that are being made on public television right now by women is absolutely incredible and here are my my grandsons hearing this well what’s the hope it’s obviously in jesus christ it’s in our families it’s modeling godliness The same power that existed in the first century exists today. Jesus is in our life. But as men, we need accountability. We need encouragement. And we need to model for our sons and daughters what it means to be a godly man. And wherever we are in process, that’s where we’ve got to begin and move forward in our lives, step by step. I often say, in fact, at the end of the book, I have a scale of these qualities – And I end up in my last video and I say, guys, as you look back over these, pick one or two where you want to improve. And I find if you can get a guy improving in one area, just one area, it spills over and encourages him. Because these are all interrelated concepts, really, in terms of this profile maturity.
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One of the cultural characteristics that gives me pause has to do with this bisexual trend, what the president of the United States has done to us by telling parents and telling the school superintendents that, that we’re really not masculine and feminine we’re not male and female we’re sort of a blend of both and therefore we ought to deny that there is a difference that has the power to destroy the family in and of itself well absolutely and if you look at romans chapter one
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And if you go all the way back to the Old Testament, statements by God Himself, that basically God’s design for man is male and female. And when you see the departure from that, as in Romans chapter 1, It’s a departure from the design of God, and it becomes a learned experience, an experience that becomes preferential. Now, I think there are exceptions. I think there are biological situations that are really difficult to understand and difficult to deal with, but by and large, If you start teaching that people are born with that trend and you encourage experimentation with that trend, you’re going to create preferences and it’s going to lead to sexual deviation. And I think we have to deal with that. How does a church deal with it? Well, come as you are, but be transformed. Be changed. Here’s a place where you can come, feel safe, but we’re going to come to know Christ and change, and we’ll help you to change. We’ve got to deal with that within our churches.
SPEAKER 03 :
Can we join together and warn parents not to be carried along by this river of culture, especially as regard to this bisexuality and the effort to change our kids from what they’re born to be to what somebody else thinks they should be? Count me in on that one. You know, the courts are now deciding against parents in regard to their own children. I just read that this weekend. And we must resist it with everything we’ve got. Now, I’m not referring to those who are genetically wired differently. And in those cases, we must be compassionate and caring. But trying to reorder the whole culture is dangerous and is wicked.
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Absolutely. It’s a violation of the will of God. But you know, Jim, I keep coming back to an encouraging thought to me. And it’s true, I think, from Scripture. The darker it gets, the brighter our light can shine. If indeed we take seriously what God can do in our lives, in our marriages, in our families, we don’t have to succumb to this. And as I said earlier, if the New Testament Christians could come out of a culture that was totally degenerate, I mean absolutely totally degenerate, can’t we stay out of it? Yes, we can. Look at the resources we have. Not only in the power of God, the armor of God, the Word of God, but the churches that we have, the Christians around us. We’ve just got to discipline ourselves As husbands and fathers, to keep our eyes on Jesus Christ and be the men. In this case, the men that God wants us to be. And with God’s help, we can be those men.
SPEAKER 03 :
This book, The Measure of a Man, would be a great tool for a pastor to preach on, wouldn’t it?
SPEAKER 02 :
Yes, I think so. I’ve preached on these, yes.
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And a lot of other men.
SPEAKER 02 :
By the way, Jim, almost every one of these qualities, except two, are repeated for women in the New Testament. Is that right? The only two that are different are a husband and one wife. But in other places, it says a woman should be a woman of one man. And the other one is a father who manages well his household. But in another place, it says a woman should be a good manager of her household. So they all apply to women as well as men. Well, then you ought to rename it The Measure of a Man and a Woman. Well, I do. My wife and I did write a book called The Measure of a Woman. It’s still in print. You also did a similar book with your son, didn’t you? Yeah, The Measure of a Young Man. That’s right. Yeah, that’s Paul’s instructions to Timothy, 1 Timothy 4, 12, I believe it is. Don’t let anyone look down on you because you’re young, but be an example in faith and purity and love and so forth. We built a little book on that one, too. But the one on women, we took Titus chapter 2, the older women.
SPEAKER 03 :
Yeah.
SPEAKER 02 :
And it lists the characteristics to teach the younger women. Yeah. And there are 12 characteristics there that we developed uniquely for women.
SPEAKER 03 :
We’ve been talking to Dr. Gene Getz, and he’s the author of more than 60 books. Are a lot of those books still available today? Quite a few are, yes. I don’t think I’ve caught up with you, though, Gene. The Measure of a Man, 20 Attributes of a Godly Man. Gene, it’s been great having you here these two days. You’re a man of God, a man that I respect very highly, and I’m glad to call you my friend. Thank you Jim. It’s mutual. Let’s do it again. Thanks.
SPEAKER 01 :
Well, you’ve been listening to Dr. James Dobson’s Family Talk, and I hope you’ve been enjoying this meaningful conversation featuring Dr. Dobson and his longtime friend, Dr. Gene Goetz, as they shared their insights on God’s blueprint for masculinity. Now, Dr. Goetz offered powerful reminders about making family time and prayer our priorities, while also sharing the story behind his influential book, The Measure of a Man. By the way, that book celebrated its 50th anniversary last year. and Dr. Goetz is still going and growing strong at 92 years young. By the way, if you’d like to learn more about Dr. Gene Goetz’s work, including his Life Essential Study Bible, visit drjamesdobson.org forward slash family talk. That’s also where you’ll find complete program information, including part one of this interview as well. Well, some broadcasts are so powerful, they simply can’t be forgotten. They’re the kind of messages that stay with you, that shape your perspective and change how you live out your faith. That’s exactly why we’ve created our 2024 Best of Broadcast Collection. While many listeners already have requested their copies, there’s still time for you to receive this powerful resource. Carefully selected programs gathered on six CDs or one special digital download that capture the very best programs from the last year here on Family Talk. It’s timeless wisdom and biblical truth that will inspire generations to come. Now we’ll be happy to send you the complete six CD set or a convenient digital download. It’s our way of thanking you for your donation of any amount in support of the Dr. James Dobson Family Institute. So don’t miss out. Request your copy today when you make a secure donation online at drjamesdobson.org. That’s drjamesdobson.org. You can also give a gift over the phone when you call 877-732-6825 or write to us at P.O. Box 39000, Colorado Springs, Colorado, the zip code 80949. For Dr. James Dobson and all of us here at the JDFI, I’m Roger Marsh. Thanks so much for listening. Be sure to join us again next time right here for another edition of Dr. James Dobson’s Family Talk, the voice you trust for the family you love. This has been a presentation of the Dr. James Dobson Family Institute.
