Delve into a thought-provoking discussion on the boundaries between science and spirituality as Dr. Rupert Sheldrake questions materialism’s resistance to the existence of non-physical phenomena. Listen as he argues that consciousness might be embedded not only in human brains but possibly in stars, electromagnetic fields, and the cosmos at large. Engage with his insights into how this perspective could reshape our understanding of reality, offering a profound connection between the physical and spiritual realms.
00:00:00 Introduction to Dr. Rupert Sheldrake’s Theories
Please stay tuned for the conclusion of our interview with Dr. Rupert Sheldrake and his theories on everything from dog intuition to a conscious sun and stars to the mind’s influence on health.
SPEAKER 02 :
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SPEAKER 05 :
You know, maybe what would help our audience on your hypothesis is some examples of what supports it, you know, some evidence that supports the idea of morphic resonance. And I think you’ve had examples of like how you can train rats to do something and then somehow rats across the globe learn the same thing without it being taught. It was taught locally and yet globally rats kind of learn this technique or this new thing.
SPEAKER 01 :
Well, there was an actual experiment started at Harvard where they trained rats to escape from a water maze. They had to swim to the right exit. And it took them to start with more than 250 trials before they cottoned on and got it. Within about 25 generations, it only took them about 25 trials to learn. This rate of learning speeded up tenfold. They assumed that it was because of the inheritance of acquired characters, or what we now call epigenetic inheritance. But when this was checked out in Australia and in Scotland, they found their rats started off where the Harvard rats had left off, with about 25 arrows, and they got better and better. But not only did the rats descended from trained parents get better, but all the rats of that breed were getting better. Now that’s what I’d expect with morphic resonance. If a lot of animals learn a new trick, all around the world it should be easier for others to learn it. If lots of humans learn something new, like programming computers, playing video games, surfboarding, snowboarding, it should get easier for others to learn it. And one line of evidence comes from the rather amazing fact that Average intelligence in intelligence tests improved all over the world by about 30% over the course of the 20th century, not because people were getting 30% smarter, but because the tests were getting easier to do. And I think the tests were getting easier to do because so many people had done them. And right now, I have an experimental project going on to find out whether it gets easier every day for people to do the New York Times five-letter word puzzle, Wordle. Every day there’s a new puzzle. Millions of people do it. Is it getting easier to do in the evening compared with the morning? Well, we don’t know yet, but there’s a student looking into this here in Britain at the moment, and she’s going to measure the first, when it’s first published in New Zealand, then it sweeps around the world with the day and the last people doing it in Hawaii. So she’s getting the scores from New Zealand and Hawaii, which would be right to an extended day to see what’s going on. Now, this also applies to crystals. If you make a new chemical and crystallize it for the first time, it may take a long time to crystallize. But if you keep making the same chemical, it should get easier to crystallize all over the world as a new habit develops. And that seems to be what happens. Chemists find that new compounds often get easier to crystallize. So these are all examples of morphic resonance.
SPEAKER 04 :
Okay, and I want to jump in real quick. Dr. Sheldrake, the examples you just gave, they seem to terrify materialists. I watched your debate with Michael Shermer, and at the very early stages of the debate, as soon as you mentioned anything… I can’t remember the exact phrase, but you mentioned something immaterial, and Michael Shermer immediately crossed his arms, and pretty much for the rest of the debate, he sat in this defensive cross-armed position, and I’ve read a number of the criticisms of your experiments online, and it seems to me that there is some measure of actual hysterical fear on the part of materialists whenever you get into mentioning things like this that cause them to attack your methods. Rather scrupulously, I must say. They do attack your methods rather scrupulously. What do you think is the source of the fear that is obvious in their hearts and in their eyes when they’re confronted with this idea that there may be things outside of the material universe that are worthy of consideration?
SPEAKER 01 :
Well, some materialists have made materialism into their worldview. It is a kind of religion for them. It’s an anti-religion. I mean, it’s an atheist worldview. And if you look at the actual personal history of many materialists, they’re people who themselves or whose parents or grandparents have rejected a religious worldview, usually Christian, sometimes Jewish. But Christianity is the religion that generates the largest number of atheists. Islam isn’t so atheist-generating as Christianity. Christianity is like a kind of engine for generating atheism. Now there’s an interesting concept that we should look into. That is profound. Well, I think it’s a very important fact, and we need to recognize it. You see, I think what happens with materialists is that they’ve personally rejected Christianity or Judaism for various reasons. I mean, Oliver Sacks, the Jewish neurologist, was a militant atheist. He rejected Judaism because he was gay. And when he was a teenager, His Jewish family told him that God was against everyone who was gay, and he was utterly condemned for being gay. So he decided he was against God. And so, if God was against him because he was gay. So he found a ready basis for that in materialist atheism, putting his faith in science. Some people reject Christianity because, you know, for a variety of reasons, they’ve had oppressive puritanical upbringings, etc. And if they take up materialism, then it provides them with an alternative worldview that seems to explain everything with no afterlife. So no need to be, if you’ve been brought up to be afraid of hell, then you don’t need to be afraid of hell anymore because there’s no such thing as any afterlife. If you’ve been brought up to feel guilty about sex, no need to feel guilty about sex. But above all, the big payoff for materialists is the feeling that if they become materialists, they’re smarter than everyone else. They’ve seen through the dogmas of religion. They’ve seen through these childish beliefs that have held back humanity for centuries. They’ve seen through all that, and they’ve risen above it. And basically, their stance is they’re smarter. So materialism is very important for them because it justifies their atheism and their self-satisfaction at being smarter than everyone else. And what happens, why I get a lot of flak, is that, you know, I’m a scientist, I’ve studied at Cambridge, I’ve studied at Harvard, I got a PhD, I’ve published papers in peer-reviewed journals, including Nature and the Proceedings of the Royal Society. And they can’t dismiss me as being someone who’s just ignorant and stupid, who doesn’t know these things, who hasn’t studied science. So I get under their skin. And then what I’m basically doing is trying to point out, as in my book, The Science Delusion, called Science Set Free in the US, the ten dogmas of materialism, which are part of their belief system. actually are not very well supported by science. They’re not supported by science at all. It is a dogmatic belief system. And they’re very, very resistant to that being pointed out because basically their whole sense of personal identity would collapse without it. So it does trigger off anxiety, anger, fear, because it is essentially a dogmatic belief system. They like to portray religious people as dogmatic believers and taking everything on faith and authority, but actually nowhere is that more true in the modern world than among materialist atheists. Most of them actually don’t know very much science, and when they say they put their trust in science, basically they put their trust in what the high priests of science tell them, They haven’t personally gone to the Large Hadron Collider and conducted experiments or personally sequenced DNA or personally analyzed genes or anything. They’ve just taken the whole lot on faith. So I think that is the real reason they get so upset and angry and why they’re so immune to evidence. I mean, in the debate with Michael Shermer, he showed not the slightest interest in evidence for anything that went against his point of view. He just thought it must be rubbish.
SPEAKER 05 :
yeah yeah so instead they do things like ban your talk on ted tv i mean was that i guess that really was banned i know you can watch it it was uh we’ve played clips of it before well they tried banning it but um they the thing is that you can’t really ban anything nowadays and when word got out they were planning to ban it people cloned the talk and put it up all over the internet
SPEAKER 01 :
Actually, they did me a good turn. You see, I think Providence works through atheists as well as through Christians and believers. And, you know, before my talk had been planned, it had about 30,000 views. It’s now had about 8 million in various formats on different websites. By far the most successful thing I’ve ever done in terms of exposure. And that would not have happened without a helping hand from the militant atheists.
SPEAKER 05 :
Well said, well said.
SPEAKER 04 :
It goes back to the truism that God’s Word never returns void. And God’s Word, whether the atheists want it to or not, God’s Word does govern everything to a certain degree. Now, you had mentioned earlier, when I asked you about spiritual versus physical things, It seemed like you implied that spiritual is necessarily separate from nature. Is that your belief? Can you clarify that? Is the spiritual necessarily separate from the natural?
SPEAKER 01 :
No, actually I think the spiritual underlies the whole of nature. As I was saying, I think the energy in nature is a manifestation of the Holy Spirit. So I see God as sustaining the whole universe from moment to moment, underlying all reality, not just setting up a universe in the first place, pressing a start button, and then having it all go on automatically like a machine. I think that God is sustaining all things. So in that sense, the Spirit of God pervades all nature all the time. But as we experience the spiritual, I think we experience it through our consciousness. And I think we experience our consciousness is not the same as the material activity of our body. It’s obviously permeates the body and depends on it. But the distinction I really make, which I think is important, is between the bodily, the psychic and the spiritual. You know, because when St. Paul says, the natural man knoweth not the things of the Spirit of God, the natural man in Greek is anthropos psychikos, the psychic man or the ensouled man. And I think there’s a realm of the psychic. which includes telepathy, premonitions, and what some might call the sixth sense, which is part of animal nature as well as human nature. I’ve done a lot of research, as you know, with psychic dogs, as in dogs that know when their owners are coming home. And I think the psychic level is to do with survival abilities and skills. I think wolves know what other wolves are doing when they’re miles away. It’s part of the way they coordinate the social group. Dogs become part of a human family and pick up our intentions, our thoughts. I don’t think these are spiritual powers. I think they’re to do, they’re like the senses. I mean, smell, taste, touch, vision. I think they’re like a kind of invisible sense, like a sixth sense, which, like everything in nature, has a spiritual underpinning, but it’s not in itself spiritual. So I think I distinguish between psychic and spiritual. Now, this is one area where I run into problems with our friends, the materialists, because they don’t believe in psychic phenomena. They don’t think telepathy and things are possible. They don’t think dogs can possibly pick up their owner’s intentions and so on. And the reason they’re so down on psychic phenomena is they think that if you let in any invisible influence at all, then God’s going to come back through the back door. And so they feel they have to deny all these psychic phenomena. I spend a certain amount of time speaking to skeptic groups. If they invite me, I accept their invitation. I go and address them, you know, atheist organizations. And one of my messages to them is you don’t need to be afraid of telepathy and psychic powers because these are part of nature. They’re natural, not supernatural, normal, not paranormal. They’re just something science hasn’t dealt with yet, but they’re part of nature. Whereas spiritual things are somewhat more different. They’re about choice. They’re about the most fundamental choices we make. They’re about morality. They’re about our connection with the divine, our openness to God and the influence of God. And they’re not quite the same as totally survival instinct level. This is something of a different level of consciousness. So, I think all of them, everything is ultimately pervaded by the spirit. But I think there’s a distinction between body, psyche, and spirit in our own lives, which is important to recognize.
SPEAKER 05 :
Okay. Well, that’s interesting. So, this gives me a better picture of this morphic resonance. And you’ve got… Isn’t there evidence, for example, of like dogs who kind of react when their owner’s on the way home? So there is evidence. It’s not just a thought and an idea. And one of the things about science is a hard currency of science is predictions. And I love that you’re doing that test with that dog. Werbel? Is that the name of it?
SPEAKER 01 :
I don’t play it. W-O-R-B-L-E.
SPEAKER 05 :
Werbel, yes. Okay. And, you know, I will have to say anecdotally, it’s not working on my dad. He’s still terrible at those games, no matter what time of day it is. But, wow, that’s really interesting. And I know you’ve even talked about… And I know this is going to be foreign to a lot of people, but maybe even the sun and the stars, they have a consciousness about them. And that somehow plays into this morphic resonance, that there’s a third element. It’s not just matter and energy, that somehow there’s an interaction. And I’m curious, because I’ve heard you talk about that. Would you believe that that’s kind of tied together electrons with a magnetic force? Because, you know, that’s what plasma cosmology does. thinks that magnetic forces are not considered enough by the secular standard cosmology.
SPEAKER 01 :
Well, I think that somehow, in a way we don’t understand yet, that electromagnetic fields are a kind of interface with consciousness. Our brains are mainly electromagnetic in the way they work, and somehow our minds interact with our brains. No one knows how. But I think that if we take the view that what interfaces with our bodies and brains is this electromagnetic activity, then the Sun has vastly more complex electromagnetic activity than we do. I mean, solar flares, sunspots, 11-year cycles, all these NASA space probes and space observatories monitoring solar weather. It’s changing all the time. And I think the mind of the Sun could interface with these electromagnetic fields which are basically within plasma. The Sun’s made of plasma. And I think the Sun and the other stars may be conscious beings. I don’t think that consciousness is confined to brains. And, you know, one of the things materialists believe is that the whole universe is completely unconscious, except in human and perhaps a few animal brains, the light bulb of consciousness is switched on for unknown reasons. That’s the materialist worldview. And they have an awful problem explaining why anything’s conscious at all. That’s why it’s called the hard problem, the very existence of human consciousness. But in the past, people thought consciousness was much more widespread in nature, that nature was alive. In the Middle Ages, it was taken for granted. It was taught in medieval universities that nature was alive. Animals are called animals because they have a soul. Anima is the Latin for soul, built into our language. So they didn’t believe they had an immortal soul like humans, but they thought they had a soul that organized their bodies and their instincts. And so I think that the stars and nature are all a reflection of an ultimate conscious source of all things, which I think of as God. And there’s no reason why consciousness should just be confined to human brains. That’s why I’m exploring the idea that sound is conscious, because I think from a scientific point of view, this is an open question. It’s not because it’s a dogma of religious belief or anything like that. It’s not part of my religious faith that it’s conscious or not conscious. It’s an open question. And I think it’s the kind of thing scientists should look at.
SPEAKER 05 :
Yeah, it’s a fun topic to consider. It’s definitely not out of the realm of possibility in God’s created nature. I love how you referred basically to Hebrews 1, 3, that God upholds all things by the word of His power, so He’s upholding all things now.
SPEAKER 04 :
Yes, yes. You know, it’s a question, I’m afraid, that is off-limits. for materialist scientists. It simply can’t be looked into because, as you said earlier, it would threaten their entire worldview. You said something earlier that could be construed by Christians and Jews to be a threatening statement. You mentioned a fellow who rejected Judaism because he was taught by his family that God is against everyone who’s gay, and he decided since he was gay that he was going to be against God. And I could go like this and start to get a little bit defensive, but of course… You know, we all understand that God’s not against any man. He’s not against anyone. He’s for everyone. God recommends against certain behaviors for obvious reasons, and God wants what’s good for all of us. But I don’t feel the kind of the knee-jerk need to defend every aspect of God against any question at any time. The way I saw Michael Shermer respond to your question implications that there was something beyond the material. Michael Shermer said, first of all, he said, I’m not God, you’re not God. And he said, there’s an objective reality. I don’t know what it is, and you don’t either. Dr. Sheldrake, I think that’s an overstatement.
SPEAKER 01 :
What do you think? Well, I think it would be definitely true to say that no one understands the whole of reality, including the mind of God, the whole of nature, etc. We’re limited humans, and obviously, by definition, our minds are human minds with a limited power of understanding. So I think that confession of ignorance is reasonable for anyone. So I don’t have a problem with that. I think the idea that there’s an objective reality to which science has unique access is questionable because scientists are humans. And as some physicists have pointed out, Our theories about nature are theories in human minds. And the so-called laws of nature are not out there. You don’t actually run into a law of nature when you’re sort of looking through a telescope. You don’t see Newton’s laws or Maxwell’s equations. These are invisible things which are accessed only through minds. And so for scientists to understand nature, they can only do so through their minds. So the very idea of objective nature relies on human minds to formulate that very idea. So I think that the idea that somehow nature is totally independent of all minds and all consciousness is an illusion that materialists have created and they themselves are the first to say they believe in science and reason and reason itself implies mind. So if you’re going to have mind in nature and mind in underlying nature which makes it comprehensible, their belief that it’s comprehensible through mathematical laws implies that underlying nature is something mind-like. And it can only be appreciated through minds. And they’re very proud of their own minds and how smart they are. So it’s actually to think of it as objective out there with no consciousness is not what science is actually telling us. True. And not what Schirmer could possibly believe, given that he’s a devotee of science and reason.
SPEAKER 04 :
Yes, yes, and that’s why the statement struck me as disingenuous. I’m not God, you’re not God, that’s not an overstatement. That’s true. I don’t necessarily believe that Michael Schirmer believes that he’s not God. But I also believe it’s an overstatement to say… that we don’t know what reality is. I think we do know what reality is, and I think that Michael Shermer’s statement that he doesn’t know is simply a revelation of the fact that he doesn’t know God. And so, Dr. Sheldrake, I don’t want to imply that I absolutely understand everything about nature, but because I do know who God is, I can say that I do know what reality is and I know that it will all be explained to me. The things I don’t understand will be explained at some point. Michael Shermer does not have that touchstone. Michael Shermer and other materialists do not have that touchstone in their mind and in their heart and not even in their psyche. And so, anyway, that seems to me to be the source of some of the inherent fear that you seem to strike into their heart.
SPEAKER 01 :
Well, it certainly doesn’t help, the fact that I make no secret of the fact that I’m a Christian. I mean, that arouses tremendous prejudice in a lot of scientists, just to start with. And it doesn’t help that I have unorthodox theories, and it doesn’t help that I think there’s evidence for telepathy in dogs and people and so on. None of that helps. But it doesn’t help with dogmatic scientists. But the interesting thing is that a lot of dogmatic scientists, when I’m talking to them alone in the evening and stuff, become much less dogmatic. A lot of them are frightened of not agreeing with the party line when they’re at work. But when they get home, many of them have had psychic experiences, some have had spiritual experiences, some have had near-death experiences, some have dogs waiting for them when they get home from the laboratory. The fact is that most dogmatic materialists Some are really dogmatic. I mean, Michael Sherman’s made a living out of it, and Richard Dawkins, it’s his whole public persona. But we recently did a survey, the Scientific and Medical Network in Britain recently did a survey of scientific, medical, and engineering professionals in Britain, France, and Germany, working scientists, and asked them, we had it done by a professional public opinion survey organization, How many of them are atheists? It’s about 25%. Quite a lot compared with the normal population, but it’s certainly not the majority. About 20% more describe themselves as non-religious agnostics. 45% describe themselves as atheists or non-religious. about 45% have described themselves as religious or spiritual or spiritual but not religious or spiritual and religious. So about 45%, about 10% didn’t say or didn’t know or whatever, but about equal numbers were sort of non-religious and spiritually bleak religious. And the atheists are certainly not a majority, even within Europe, where atheism is much more predominant than it is in the United States. And I know from my own experience of giving talks in scientific institutions that after the talk, one after another, people come up to me and they look both ways to make sure no one’s listening. And then they say, you know, I’m really interested in what you say. I agree with a lot of what you say. I’ve had these experiences myself, but I can’t tell my colleagues because they’re all so straight. And after three or four have done this, I said, well, actually, you’re not alone. I said, there’s at least three or four other people in your institute who think like you do. They said, well, how do you know? And I said, because they’ve just told me, him and her and him. And what I say to them is, you know, your life would be so much more fun if you come out of the closet. Spiritually-minded scientists who’ve had psychic or spiritual experiences are quite common, and they behaved like gays did in the 1950s. You know, they were all in the closet, I think they couldn’t possibly admit it. So my slogan to them really is, you know, come out of the closet, and you’ll find that if you talk freely in your laboratory tea room or with friends after work and stuff… you’ll find a lot of them who actually agree with you. So right now, people who do have these views are hiding them from their colleagues. Another metaphor for this is the Soviet Union under Brezhnev. You know, in the last days of communism, how many people in the Soviet Union really believed in communism? I mean, there were certainly some, but the majority didn’t. But they didn’t become outright dissidents because then they’d be locked up in psychiatric institutes or sent to Siberia. So they pretended to go along with it. You know, party congresses, they dutifully clap at the right moments and stuff. I think that within the world of science, it’s rather like that at the moment. I think there’s this materialist orthodoxy, which is held in place by inertia and by fear, but which is not actually sincerely believed in by most scientists. And if you include among most scientists, Indians and South Americans… There are more scientists in India than there are in the United States. I lived and worked in India. I hardly ever met an atheist in India. Most of the scientists, my colleagues, were devout Hindus or Muslims or Sikhs or Jains or Christians.
SPEAKER 03 :
Stop the tape. Stop the tape. Hey, this is Dominic Enyart. We are out of time for today. If you want to hear the rest of this program, go to rsr.org. That’s Real Science Radio, rsr.org.
SPEAKER 02 :
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