Join us as we navigate the complexities of free will and the reasoning behind choices related to eternal life. Drawing on examples from theological works and biblical scripture, we discuss why people might choose a ‘torment’, albeit a more tolerable one, over eternal joy. The conversation also touches upon the practical aspects of spreading the message of salvation, examining why some fail to respond to the light available to them, even in an era of widespread access to biblical teachings.
The following is a listener-supported ministry from the Grace Evangelical Society.
SPEAKER 01 :
We invite you to our website, faithalone.org. Right now, we are also inviting you to our annual national conference. Time is of the essence to get registered only about six weeks away. Get all the information at faithalone.org. And we’d love to see you there on May the 19th through the 22nd. faithalone.org. Now with today’s question and answer discussion, here are Bob Wilkin and David Renfrow.
SPEAKER 02 :
Brad asked the question, if every human will have the opportunity to be saved, then why will the majority of people reject that wonderful gift and ultimately choose to burn in the lake of fire forever? And then he says, in other words, a person is looking at eternal torture and turns and looks at eternal paradise, and they choose eternal torture. Why?
SPEAKER 03 :
Okay, first of all, I don’t buy the view that the lake of fire is eternal torture. What we find in Scripture, it’s called torment. Torment is different than torture. This word is used in the book of Revelation. There’s going to be a time period there in Revelation where people are experiencing torment. And that same word is used there for people who are alive, physically alive. In my book, The Ten Most Misunderstood Words in the Bible, I have a chapter on hell, and I suggest that most people’s view of hell is based on medieval speculation, like Dante’s Inferno, rather than based on Scripture. The Bible actually has very little to say about Hades or Sheol. which is the current place of the unbelieving dead. And it has even less to say about the lake of fire. Revelation 20, 11 to 15 just says they’re thrown into the lake of fire, and this is a place that has eternal burning and smoke coming up and this sort of thing. But it doesn’t mean that the people are literally on fire. I believe what it suggests is they’re in a fiery environment. So, yes, it’ll be torment. I mean, this isn’t a place you’re going to want to choose. So coming now to Brad’s question, why would anybody choose eternal torment, even if it’s bearable, which I argue in my book that it’s going to be tolerable for all, even though it’s going to be a painful experience forever? then why would someone choose that over everlasting life and being with the Lord and having joy forever? The reason is people really don’t choose the one over the other. Is it in Dante’s Inferno where it says better to rule in hell than to serve in heaven? Something like that.
SPEAKER 02 :
Something like that, yeah.
SPEAKER 03 :
Anyway, there are people who would hold that. But what most people are doing is they’re following what makes sense to them. And so most people, if they believe in an afterlife, which not everybody today believes in an afterlife, but most people do. If they believe in an afterlife, most people find a way to think that there’s a good possibility or probability that I’m going to get that blessed afterlife, right?
SPEAKER 02 :
What I wonder, too, is sometimes Bible teachers are not clear about what will happen in heaven and what will happen in hell. I just think that the teaching is not good. And I think some people can walk away saying, well, if you go to heaven, yeah, you’re with God, but all you are is a robot that… You’re just going to fly from one cloud to the next and praise him constantly. But that’s all you’ll ever do forever. And then hell, yeah, it may be we would call it a poor quality of life or existence. But at least, you know, it’ll be interesting. I just don’t think, you know, being a robot in heaven is interesting. You know, I get the idea from some people that that’s their view of things.
SPEAKER 03 :
Yeah. Now, I have a chapter in that Ten Words book on heaven, too. And what I point out is what you’re talking about here. The Bible doesn’t say that heaven is the eternal home of believers. It’s the temporary quarters for believers between the time of their death. And the time of their rapture. But their eternal home is someplace else. What’s the eternal home for believers? Well, in his presence forever. But where is Jesus going to be forever? On the earth. He’s not going to be in the third heaven forever. In fact, in Revelation 21, it’s called… A new earth. New heaven and new earth. Yeah. There’s a place called Jerusalem and it’s a new Jerusalem. And it’s got streets of gold and it’s got these 12 different foundations to the city. And it’s this ginormous city. It’s about the size of the United States, right?
SPEAKER 02 :
Probably so.
SPEAKER 03 :
Well, it’s not quite as big, but 1,500 miles by 1,500 miles, it’s a humongous boy.
SPEAKER 02 :
Fairly large, yeah. So don’t look at the new heavens and the new earth having the same continents and…
SPEAKER 03 :
oceans and all that stuff you know it’s a whole different thing that’s another thing we’re not going to have oceans of salt water right because revelation 21 says there’ll be no more sea we know the topography would be different because the highest mountain is going to be mount zion yeah jerusalem is going to be your like denver or something it’s going to be the mile i said mount everest is going away mount everest is going away
SPEAKER 01 :
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SPEAKER 03 :
So coming to his question, why would anybody reject the free gift of eternal life? And the answer, there’s a lot of different reasons, but at least one of the reasons, if not the major reason, is because what Jesus says does not make sense to them. Now, not everybody hears all The message that Jesus gives, right? There are people who die never even hearing about Jesus. And in my view, in their case, they’re not crying out to God for more light, for more information. Because we know if people are, that God’s going to send them the truth. I think of the Macedonian vision in Acts 16, verse 9. There’s this man in Macedonia, which was Europe, includes what we call North Macedon today, and even probably what we call Serbia and Croatia. And this man is saying, come over to us and preach to us. This man wanted to know what he needed to do to be saved. Same thing with Philippian jailer. What must I do to be saved? And Paul gives him the answer. So I think the issue is if a person’s never heard, they need to cry out. Psalm 19.1, the heavens declare God’s beauty, his glory.
SPEAKER 02 :
The glory.
SPEAKER 03 :
And if they respond to that, Romans 1, well, then God’s going to give them more truth. But Romans 1 says that most people suppress the truth and unrighteousness. So part of it has to do with the fact that people aren’t even responding to general revelation. But then on top of that, in a country like the United States, where we have the opportunity to hear the saving message on the Internet, on TV, on Christian radio, in Christian books, in churches all over the United States, from Christian friends— Well, why is it that people go to the grave and still reject the free gift of eternal life? Ultimately, it’s because they’re not taking advantage of the opportunities they have. In Acts 17, 27, Paul said to the Athenian philosophers that God had granted to all men that they might grope after God and that they might find him.
SPEAKER 02 :
Mm-hmm.
SPEAKER 03 :
and that He’s not far from all of us. And so even the Gentiles, who had never heard the name of Jesus, were being drawn by the Father so that they would respond, and then they would come to faith in Christ and be born again. And I think the underlying part of Brad’s question, I think, has something to do with the fact that, is God drawing all? In other words, you would think if God’s drawing everybody, then why would anybody reject his drawing?
SPEAKER 02 :
Right.
SPEAKER 03 :
Well, the reason is because we have an adversary called Satan. According to 2 Corinthians 4.4, he’s blinded the eyes of people. Right. God’s in the business of taking away the blinders. But in order for him to take away the blinders, we need to be open to the truth. I think of Lydia in Acts 16. She’s at the place of prayer. She’s seeking God. She’s a God-fearing Gentile. In verse 14, it says, God opened Lydia’s heart that she might heed the things spoken by Paul and Silas. He opened her heart so she might believe. And that’s what happens before any of us believe. God takes off the blinders, but he’s ready and willing and able to do that for anyone. Hebrews 11, 6, God’s a rewarder of those who diligently seek him.
SPEAKER 02 :
Seek him, yeah.
SPEAKER 03 :
So the reason ultimately, Brad, why people don’t come to faith is because they are not responding to the light they have. Whether there’s some person out in some tribal area that’s never even heard of the Bible or Jesus, if they respond to the light they have, missionaries are going to come and they’re going to bring them the message. And if it’s somebody in the United States of America and they’re growing up in some legalistic church or they’re growing up in some legalistic religious group outside of Christianity, if they’re open, they’re going to come to the truth. Jesus said to Jewish legalists, you search the scriptures, for in them you think you have eternal life. But these are they which testify of me, and you’re not willing to come to me that you may have life. We need to be willing to come to Jesus to believe in him in order to have everlasting life. So I don’t think people look at it the way Brad’s asking. But if you wanted to evangelize that way, yeah, you could say to people, which would you prefer? Eternal torment in the lake of fire or eternal joy on the new earth with the Lord Jesus Christ? Which would you pick? I remember when I taught a course on evangelism, I had a student who actually… He actually said something like that to people. Do you want to spend eternity in hell? I don’t particularly think that’s an effective way to evangelize.
SPEAKER 02 :
To scare people into believing. Yeah.
SPEAKER 03 :
If you read the Gospel of John, you don’t find even once where Jesus does that. Right. You never find him saying, would you like to spend eternity in torment, or would you like everlasting life? We find him preaching the positive. He who believes in me will not perish, but has everlasting life. Obviously, the will not perish implies eternal condemnation, and more than implies it, because he does say in the next verse, the Son of Man didn’t come into the world to condemn the world, but the world through him might be saved. So he does talk about condemnation.
SPEAKER 02 :
Mm-hmm.
SPEAKER 03 :
But I think it’s vitally important for us to recognize that when we’re talking to people, we’re sharing with them a life and death matter. And that’s what Brad’s talking about. We should make the life and death matter clear because each individual is responsible for whether they’re going to respond to God or not.
SPEAKER 02 :
Sounds good.
SPEAKER 03 :
Keep your questions coming. Make sure they’re short, one or two sentences, so that they’re easy for us to follow. And keep Grace in Focus.
SPEAKER 01 :
That’s radioatfaithalone.org. We are so thankful for our financial partners who keep us on the air. Every gift is tax deductible and very much appreciated. If you’d like to find out how you can give, go to faithalone.org. On our next episode, should believers wear crosses? We’ll see you next time. And until then, let’s keep grace in focus.
SPEAKER 02 :
The preceding has been a listener supported ministry from the Grace Evangelical Society.
