Join Steve Gregg in this episode of The Narrow Path as we explore various intriguing questions about the Christian faith. We’ll delve into topics such as the interpretation of Old Testament quotes in the New Testament narrative, discuss differing views on the Trinity, and understand the onset of eternal life in the believer’s journey. Steve addresses these topics with eagerness, inviting listeners from diverse backgrounds to participate and explore the richness of Christian doctrine together.
SPEAKER 1 :
Thank you.
SPEAKER 09 :
Good afternoon and welcome to the Narrow Path radio broadcast. My name is Steve Gregg and we’re live for an hour each weekday afternoon, taking your calls so that you can call in if you have questions about the Bible, about Christianity, anything like that, and we will talk about them on the air. If you have a different viewpoint from the host and want a balanced comment, we’ll talk about that on the air if you call in. The number is 844-484-5737. That’s 844-484-5737. A few announcements. Yesterday, I had some new announcements to make. There is an older announcement, but it has to do with about three weeks from now, and that is I’ll be doing an 11-day itinerary in the Midwest, speaking in Michigan and Indiana and Illinois, and I want you to know about that. I’m not going to give you the details here because there’s too many announcements. I can’t do that, but you can find out anything you need to know about any of these announcements at our website, thenarrowpath.com, under the tab that says announcements. Now, in August 16th through 26th, I’ll be in the Midwest in these states. There’s another Midwestern a thing being put together. I mentioned this yesterday because it was handed to me, actually, in the middle of the program when I made the announcement. And that is there’s people in Minnesota seeking to put together a series of meetings for me to come and teach there. And I gave a phone number. I gave a… an email address for those interested in contacting the person who’s trying to set these things up. And that person has received, I understand, several responses already. And if you’re in Minnesota specifically and are interested in possibly being involved in setting up some kind of an event in your state in the fall, I think it’s just at this point generically sometime in the fall, Feel free to go to our website, thenarrowpath.com, look under announcements, and you’ll find out how to contact these people in Minnesota to talk about that. The last announcement I have to make has to do with a week from Thursday, that is two weeks from yesterday, and that is in Huntington Beach. I don’t know that I’ve ever spoken in Huntington Beach before. It’s my old stomping grounds from when I was a teenager somewhat. I mean, I went to the beach numerous times in Orange County. And there is a pizza parlor, Two Brothers Pizza in Huntington Beach. And the owners are Christians. They listen to this program. And they would like to start something up, not necessarily every Thursday, but maybe with some regularity, Theology Thursday at their pizza restaurant. And so we agreed to that. They wanted me to come for these. And so we agreed that I will do so. The first of these will be on the 7th of August. So about, again, less than two weeks from now. I’m going to speak briefly, literally 20 to 30 minutes about the subject of the kingdom of God. And then there will be open discussion, open questions, answers and discussion of the topic. So it’s more or less a Bible study per se. and more of theological discussion for anyone who wishes to come. Now, I think it’s going to start at, what, 6.30 or something like that and go on until about 9. The first part of that time, you can eat there. It’s a pizza parlor, so you can get food. This is not being served free. You can order your food there. And you can eat it during the time I’m speaking. And then we’ll also go on into the evening with further discussion. That’s in Huntington Beach a week from Thursday. You can find that information also online. as all the other announcements are found at our website, thenarrowpath.com, under the tab that says announcements. So quite a few different locations. I hope to be seeing many of you. All right, we’re going to go to the phones now, and we’ll talk first of all to Ryan calling from Linwood, Washington. Hi, Ryan. Welcome to The Narrow Path. Thanks for calling.
SPEAKER 06 :
Hi, Steve. Hi. So you have a lecture that I heard a while ago, and it was – When the New Testament is quoting the Old Testament, and I think it’s usually about the kingdom or something like that, and it’s not in the ways that maybe a dispensationalist would usually interpret it, that they were interpreting it differently. In your lecture, you had all of those quotes. I was wondering if those quotes were available to you.
SPEAKER 09 :
Well, were you listening to the When Shall These Things Be series?
SPEAKER 06 :
I think so.
SPEAKER 09 :
You would quote things versus… As far as lists of it, there is a chart, and people who have listened to the lecture have often written to me and asked for it. It’s posted. The chart is posted at Matthew713.com. I assume… I assume that you’d look it up under charts because there’s a category of charts. And it’s called the Kingdom Chart. And what it does, it takes the passages about the Kingdom of God, about the Messianic Age in the Old Testament, and it itemizes, oh, I don’t know, seven or eight features that are frequently found in these passages because every time the Kingdom is mentioned in the Old Testament… although there’s many passages in several different prophets in the Psalms, they’re always talking about the same period. They’re talking about the Messiah and his kingdom. And so many of the features of the Messiah’s kingdom recur in lots of these passages. So what I did when I made this chart was I chose some of the recurring features that are distinctive of this kingdom era. And I put them across the top. Each has a column under them. Then down the left side, There’s a row that has the various passages. Now, there’s more passages than I listed, but I listed a bunch of them. I don’t know how many I listed, maybe ten or something like that, but they’re from various parts of the Old Testament. So, what I do is I go through in a chart, I show which features are found in each of these passages, and some of the features, you know, some of the passages have almost all the features in them. Some have a couple or so, but then over in the In the far right column, I quote the New Testament in its identification of the fulfillment of these passages in Christ. So anyway, it’s an interesting chart. It’s hard to picture by just being described, but what it shows is that the kingdom passages, which dispensationalists would apply to a future millennial kingdom when Jesus comes back, All the New Testament writers applied those passages to the era that began with the first coming of Christ, not the second, and therefore the era we call the age of the church, the present age. And so the kingdom era that the prophets predicted began with the first coming of Christ, and we who follow him are part of that kingdom. Anyway, yeah, it’s called the kingdom chart. I believe you’d find it at Matthew713.com under the category that says charts. Now, if you don’t find it there for some reason, go ahead and e-mail me, and I’ll send you a copy of it.
SPEAKER 06 :
Okay. That sounds good.
SPEAKER 09 :
Yeah, my e-mail can be found at the bottom of our main page on our website, thenarrowpath.com.
SPEAKER 06 :
Okay. And when you were in Washington, you and I were talking, and you had – recommended that I listen to the Strategies for Unity, and it’s just amazing, and I just wish that everybody would listen to that. I do, too. Yeah, I, too, have just this deep, my heart is broken over the disunity, and I just, you know, I really appreciate that.
SPEAKER 09 :
Thank you. Obviously, Christ’s heart is broken over the disunity of his family, too. And he’s commanded us to be united. He has indicated that the unity of his family will be the witness to the world, that he is genuine, that he was sent by the Father. And yet, of course, the world is unpersuaded of that for the most part. And no wonder the church has not exhibited this unity. And so that’s why I did this series. There’s four lectures, right?
SPEAKER 06 :
Four or five, yeah.
SPEAKER 09 :
I think it’s four, but it could be five. Anyway, it’s a series called Strategies for Unity. It’s under the topical lectures at our website, thenarrowpath.com. I appreciate your commendation of it. I believe it’s very important. I think it’s very important. All right. Thank you, Steve. Okay.
SPEAKER 06 :
God bless you.
SPEAKER 09 :
Good talking to you. Bye now. Okay. Rick in Roseville, California. Rick, welcome to The Narrow Path. Thanks for calling.
SPEAKER 08 :
Hi, Steve. I was recently at a Bible study where the Trinity was being discussed and Most of the people there did not believe in the Trinity, and I brought up 1 John 5, verses 7 and 8, and was told that that was not in the original text. Is that true?
SPEAKER 09 :
That would appear to be true. By the way, I do believe in the Trinity. And were you in a Christian church meeting? I mean, what kind of gathering was it? They didn’t believe in the Trinity? No.
SPEAKER 08 :
Correct. They are a spin-off of Herbert Armstrong’s church. Oh, okay. Okay, yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER 09 :
Herbert W. Armstrong.
SPEAKER 08 :
They don’t believe in a lot of things, but I was really shocked to hear that this wasn’t in the original text. Yeah.
SPEAKER 09 :
Well, yeah, Herbert Armstrong’s group, of course, was anti-Trinitarian. They’re not exactly a church. But they’re, yeah, virtually all Orthodox Christian assemblies would believe in the Trinity, but you don’t have to believe because they do. You should believe it because it’s taught in Scripture. Now, The favorite scripture for those who use the King James Version, you know, when they’re trying to find a scripture that actually proves the Trinity, would be 1 John 5, verse 7, where it says there are three who bear witness in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit, and these three are one. It sounds like a very concise summary of what we call the Trinity Doctrine, but they are correct because that this particular verse is not found in the oldest manuscripts available of 1 John, which raises the probability that it was not in there originally. It is found in later manuscripts, some. Now, most of our Bibles contain that verse, but if it’s not the King James Version, they probably have a footnote about that verse. Almost all the modern translation will have a footnote and point out that this verse is absent from our oldest manuscripts. Now, the history of this verse is kind of interesting because the reason it’s in the King James Version is because Erasmus… put it into the Textus Receptus, which was the New Testament manuscripts that were used later in the translation of the King James Version. Now, he didn’t put it in there originally. In his day, which is, of course, in the 1500s, they only had a relative few copies of the New Testament in Greek. I don’t remember how many he had. It seems like he only had like less than 20, maybe even less than 10. I don’t remember. It was a very small number. And he didn’t have any manuscripts that had that verse in it. And so he was a Catholic, and the Catholics asked him to put together from the existing manuscripts what’s called an eclectic text, where he would take the best reading of each passage, best attested from the manuscripts available. And he put together this combined text, and it did not contain the information in 1 John 5, 7. Now, that information was found in the Latin version of Jerome, and the Catholic Church had been using the Latin for centuries. And so they noticed it was missing from the Greek text that Erasmus put together. And they said, why did you leave out that verse? And he said, well, I didn’t intentionally leave it out. None of the manuscripts in Greek that I have contain it. You know, he said, if you have a Greek manuscript that has it in there, I’ll put it in there. I don’t have anything against it. And so they produced one. And the question of whether they produced it just, you know, to order or whether they actually found one is an open question. But to keep his promise, Erasmus went ahead and put that in there. He put it in the Textus Receptus, but he also put a footnote saying he doubted that it was authentic. So he figured it was kind of a shady deal. Now, so, you know, where do we get this verse? We get it from the Textus Receptus. And even the man who put the Textus Receptus together originally thought it was of questionable legitimacy. Now, to say that about this verse… is not to call the doctrine of the Trinity into question. At least I’ve never seen any reason to. I’ve known about the history of this verse since I was a teenager, and it never once made me have any problem believing in the Trinity because I don’t derive my doctrine of the Trinity from that verse. I derive my doctrine of the Trinity from the rest of Scripture. And there is no place in Scripture that, you know, puts the Trinity doctrine together so neatly as this verse does, which, of course, raises suspicions about the verse. I mean, obviously, the Trinity doctrine had become standard doctrine for the church, you know, 1,200 years before Erasmus’ time. But And he was a Trinitarian, too, but he doubted that that particular verse was original in the text, and I do, too. But the Trinity doctrine never depended on that verse. The Trinity doctrine depends on a synthesis of all that the Scriptures say about the nature of God. And to put it very briefly, the Scriptures tell us there’s only one God and no more than one God, only one God. But they also call the Father God, and they speak of Christ as God also, and they speak of the Holy Spirit as God. Now, one might assume, as, for example, the Oneness Pentecostals would, that there’s only really one God, and he’s sometimes referred to as the Father, sometimes referred to as the Son, and sometimes referred to as the Holy Spirit. The only problem with that is, of course, that Jesus spoke of the Father as someone additional to himself. He said, for example, if I alone bear witness to myself, my witness is not true, but I have another who bears witness to me, and my father does. So it’s me and my father. That’s two witnesses. So he doesn’t indicate that he and the father are the same witness, although elsewhere, of course, in John chapter 10, he said, I and my father are one. But there’s some question as to in what sense he meant that. And that’s just the case. We find Jesus speaking as if he and the father are identified in, for example, chapter 14. where Philip said, Lord, show us the Father, and that is sufficient for us. And Jesus said, have I been so long time with you, Philip, and you don’t know me? Do you not know that I’m in the Father, and the Father is in me, he said? He said, if you’ve seen me, you’ve seen the Father. So, I mean, that’s sort of identified with the Father. And yet, before the chapter is over, he says, the Father is greater than I. So what are we going to make of this kind of stuff? Well, what I make of it, is that in a certain sense, Jesus and the Father are one. And in a different sense, they are two. Not two gods. Two somethings. And the best illustration that I usually know to give is a biblical one, where the Bible says a man leaves his father and mother and cleaves to his wife, and the two become one flesh. Now, that way, a married couple can be said to be two, because we are two people. But we can also be called one, but not in the same sense, obviously. We don’t occupy just one place spatially on the planet. My wife and I are both in this room, but not in the same seat. She’s across the room from me. But we are two people, but we are also one in a different sense. Now, if someone wants to say, well, in what sense are a couple one? Well, that’s a good question to explore, but it’s not a questionable statement. The Bible says that God makes the husband and wife one. Not in the same sense that there are two. And I believe the same is true of God. The Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are, in a sense, one. Because there’s only one God, and they’re all called God. But in another sense, they’re not one. In another sense, they are three. Now, traditionally, the church said three persons. The Bible doesn’t use that term for them, doesn’t call them persons, but Trinity doctrine usually is that God is one in substance, but three in persons. Now, whatever we may think about the language of substance and persons, which are not terms found in the Bible, we may want to use different words or we may approve of those ones, but what we have to say is that’s an affirmation that in one sense, God is one. In another sense… God is three. Both statements can be true as long as we’re not talking about the same sense. Just like to say my wife and I are one is true in a certain sense. Not in the same sense that we’re two, but both statements are true in different ways. And, you know, so we have to say that if we take the Bible seriously and we do not eliminate any of the affirmations of Scripture from it, that the Father and the Word and the Holy Spirit are indeed one. And they are also three. Now, that is what is summarized in the verse 1 John 5, 7, even though it’s not really found in the original Greek text as near as we can tell. Well, that verse might not be found there, but the idea is found in the Bible, and that’s why I’m a Trinitarian. So you could totally remove that verse from every English translation there is, and probably it would be a legitimate thing to do, but it wouldn’t have any negative impact on my belief in the Trinity because I never depended on that verse for that.
SPEAKER 08 :
Yeah, it was an easy one for me to run to, not knowing that it was an error, because it seemed to spell it out so clearly. So it’s a good day. I learned something new.
SPEAKER 09 :
Yeah, that verse was very convenient for proving the Trinity, if we could be sure it was in the original text. But there’s very few textual scholars, even very conservative ones, even Trinitarian ones, there’s very few that believe that verse was in the original text.
SPEAKER 08 :
Got it. Thank you. Have a good weekend.
SPEAKER 09 :
Okay, Rick. God bless you. Good talking to you. Oscar in Mount Vernon, New York. Welcome to The Narrow Path. Good to hear from you again. Well, thank you.
SPEAKER 01 :
Thank you.
SPEAKER 02 :
Yeah. The word repentance, is repentance turning to Jesus, not turning from sin?
SPEAKER 09 :
Well, both are the same thing. Turning to Jesus doesn’t just, I mean, Jesus isn’t standing to your left or to your right and you turn that direction to turn to him. Turning to Jesus means that you turn your life in the direction of Christ’s lordship. Okay? He’s the Lord. And before you are his follower, you have your back to him. You are walking a different direction. And that direction is called sin. And so, turning, you know, the word repent literally means to change the mind. At least the New Testament word metanoia does. In the Old Testament… There’s a word for repentance called shuv, which means to turn around. And it’s also translated repent. So, you know, repentance means changing your mind and it involves turning around. But figuratively speaking, you don’t literally change the orientation of your body when you repent. But you realize that your life, you change the orientation of your life. You were walking your own way with Christ behind you that is ignoring his lordship. And when you repent, you turn around and say, okay, oops, I’m going to ignore my agendas and follow him now. So turning to Christ means something, and it doesn’t mean a literal turning on a pivot. It literally means that you have changed the direction of your life. You’re now following Christ. That means you have turned from the way you were going before, obviously, And that way before was sin. So if you say, is repentance turning to Christ or is it turning away from sin? Yes. Yes. I mean, that’s basically what it is. It is turning away from sin to follow Christ. Thank you. Thank you. All right. Well, it’s good to talk to you today. God bless you. Thanks. All right. Bye now. All right. We’ve got a hard break coming up here in a few minutes. I guess I could hold someone over if we get caught. Shannon in Jonesboro, Arkansas. Welcome to The Narrow Path. Thanks for calling.
SPEAKER 01 :
Hi, Greg. How are you? I’m sure you’re familiar with the Torah observance. I’ve seen some of your lectures on it. I was talking to one of those guys about once saved, always saved. Of course, we agreed on that. And then we got to talking about eternal life, and he said, hold on now. We don’t have eternal life right now. I was wondering where’s he going? And we got sidetracked, and I couldn’t push him on it. What do you think about that?
SPEAKER 09 :
Well, I wish I knew what he does believe in, but I’m going to guess that what he means is that we don’t get eternal life until we’re resurrected. Now, you’re talking about Torah observant people, and Torah observant people are not all of one eschatology or all of one viewpoint about things. Torah observant simply means they believe we’re supposed to keep the laws given to Moses as part of our Christian life. I disagree with that. And as you mentioned, I’ve got lectures against it. In fact, on my website under topical lectures, there’s a series called Torah Observance where I debunk that viewpoint. But there are some among them who would say when you’re dead, you’re dead. But if you’re righteous, you’ll be raised from the dead and you’ll be given immortality at that time. And so they would say we don’t currently have eternal life. No, I think they’re mistaken about that, and that is because they’re assuming that there’s no part of us that lives on after death. I believe that when we physically die, that as Paul said, we are then absent from the body. But there’s part of us that is in fact absent from the body, and we’re present with the Lord, and that’s the part of us that now has eternal life. Our bodies do not yet have it. and will not have it until Jesus returns and resurrects us, and we’ll have immortal bodies. Until then, we who are in Christ have passed from death unto life. It says that in John 5, 11. It says, Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears my word and believes in him who has sent me has, present tense, eternal, everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation, but has passed from death to life. Now, this Everlasting life, he’s not referring to the resurrection because none of those people had that. None of those people had been resurrected yet. But they had eternal life, you know, I believe spiritually. And that’s something that John’s Gospel often makes reference to. For example, in the next chapter, John 6, verse 54, whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has, present tense, eternal life. And I will raise him up at the last day. So there’s the resurrection of the last day later, but they have eternal life now. That’s John 6, 54. So I think the friend you were talking to is mistaken. He’s probably, I’m going to guess that he’s assuming that we will receive eternal life in the resurrection. I believe if we receive Christ and follow him and are born again, we have eternal life now, but not physically. It’s in the resurrection that our bodies will physically take on immortality, as Paul said in 1 Corinthians 15. So I think they’re confusing two different things. I appreciate your call, brother. I need to take a break at this point, and then we’ll be taking more calls. You’re listening to The Narrow Path radio broadcast. We are listener-supported. If you’d like to write to us, the address is The Narrow Path, PO Box 1730, Temecula, California, 92593. Our website is thenarrowpath.com. I’ll be back in 30 seconds. Don’t go away. We have another half hour to go.
SPEAKER 10 :
If you call the narrow path, please have your question ready as soon as you are on the air. Do not take much time setting up the question or giving background. If such detail is needed to clarify your question, the host will ask for such information. Our desire is to get as many callers on the air during the short program. There are many calls waiting behind you, so please be considerate to others.
SPEAKER 09 :
Welcome back to the Narrow Path Radio broadcast. My name is Steve Gregg, and we’re live for another half hour taking your calls. If you’d like to call in with your question about the Bible or the Christian faith, feel free to do so. The number to call is 844-484-5737. That’s 844-484-5737. Our next caller is David calling from Maycomb, Michigan. Hi, David. Welcome. Thanks for calling.
SPEAKER 02 :
Hi, Steve. How’s it going? Good. Thanks for having me. Uh-huh. I’ve listened for a few years, first-time caller, and I love the ministry and loving the lectures lately. The question is, on the Mount of Transfiguration, we have Peter waking up and basically asks Jesus, you know, it’s good for us to be here. Should we build the tabernacles, one for Moses, one for Elijah, one for you? Luke says he didn’t know what he was saying. How did he know? How did he know who they were? I mean, maybe he figured one was Moses, but, you know, you have Isaiah also with many prophecies of the Christ, of Messiah. So why couldn’t, you know, go ahead.
SPEAKER 09 :
Yeah, well, I mean, it was Moses and Elijah that was seen. Now, there’s a couple of ways to address how they would know who was speaking. That is who those people were. Now, of course, the problem is that Moses and Elijah had departed from the earth hundreds of years before this day that they were now seeing them again. Moses had been caught up 1,400 years earlier or had died earlier. 1,400 years earlier, and Elijah was caught up around 700 years earlier. So no living person, including the disciples, had ever seen those men. No photographs were ever taken of them, and they didn’t have statues made of them. That would have been against the Jewish law to make images. So nobody living at that time had any clue what Moses or Elijah had looked like, and therefore if they appeared on a mountain with Jesus, it would not be likely, it would not be even possible for anyone to know who they were, unless there was something that gave it away. Now, there’s a couple of ways we could figure out how did Peter and the others know it was Moses and Elijah. One is quite simply that in the conversation, Jesus called them by name. I mean, there was a conversation that went on. The conversation is not recorded, and it may have gone on for quite a long time. There might have been a lot said. All we are told is that they were discussing with Jesus, as it says in Luke chapter 9, they were discussing the exodus that Jesus was about to accomplish in Jerusalem. That’s a summary of what they talked about. But we don’t know how long the conversation went, what statements were made and what were not. But since Jesus is talking with Moses and Elijah today, They probably called him by name, and he probably addressed them by name. And, you know, after listening to the conversation, the disciples would have no doubt who it was they’re looking at. Now, of course, you might think, well, if Jesus called one of them Moses, called the other Elijah, you know, would that work? Would they be totally convinced that that was really them or not? Or could Jesus be mistaken or whatever? But Jesus himself was glorified before them. His face was shining like a sun. You know, he looked totally different. He looked totally divine and stuff. And they were seeing something amazing. And, you know, for Moses and Elijah to visit and talk with him there. wouldn’t seem any stranger than for Jesus to appear in that form before their eyes. So it’s possible they knew it was Moses and Elijah just from the contents of the conversation and from the three men addressing each other by name at certain times. That’s kind of what I figure, but there’s another possibility. When Jesus and the disciples were coming down from that conference on the mountain, it says that Jesus said to them, tell the vision to no one. In other words, don’t tell anyone about this vision you just had. Now, the word vision can simply mean something you saw. So it could have been, you know, it may not be speaking of some kind of a prophetic vision. On the other hand, the same word is used to speak of dreams and visions, which people can prophetically have. Peter, for example, had a vision later of a sheet drawn down from heaven with unclean animals on it. And Jesus spoke to him and said, arise, Peter, kill and eat. This, of course, in Acts chapter 10. Peter had that vision. Paul had a vision of Christ on the road to Damascus. You know, having visions was not altogether divine. unheard of, and when Jesus said to the disciples, don’t tell this vision to anyone, we may be intended and understood that this really didn’t happen except as a visionary experience. I mean, when prophets see things, well, like, for example, in the book of Revelation, John sees a lot of visions. Horses riding through the sky, you know, different colors and so forth. Well, I don’t think there were any real horses riding through the sky. I think this was something revealed to him in a visionary experience. A vision of this kind is very much like a dream. I don’t know anything about visions from experience, but I’ve had dreams. And, you know, when I have a dream, I, you know, it may be very possible for somebody, I mean, I don’t remember if this ever happened, but somebody I’ve not met is in the dream. And I just, in the context of the dream, I know who I’m talking to. I know who they are. And, of course, if I thought about it more rationally, I think, well, how would I know who they are if I saw them? But the thing is that when something is being revealed to your mind supernaturally, I would assume the identity of the persons would be equally revealed to them. So it’s possible that they knew this by divine revelation because the whole experience was a divine revelation. Or if it’s literally the case that Moses and Elijah were there talking to Jesus, then Peter might have known simply because of them addressing each other by name. So those are the two thoughts that I think would answer that question. I’m not sure which one.
SPEAKER 02 :
Oh, that’s satisfactory. I think that first one makes complete sense. It says they were talking, and, yeah, every now and then in conversation we use each other’s names, so. It just always boggles me. I’m like, how do they know? I know there’s the law and the prophets, you know, symbolism there between the two.
SPEAKER 09 :
Yeah, what they symbolize is another story. It’s a very interesting thing. But as far as just the pragmatic matter of how did they know who they were, that would be the answers I would give.
SPEAKER 02 :
No, I appreciate it. Yeah, like I said, love those lectures, and I look forward to maybe seeing you in Hamtramck. Okay, that’d be great.
SPEAKER 09 :
Okay, that’d be great. God bless you, David. All right, we’re going to talk next to Donovan from Langley, British Columbia. Hi, Donovan. Welcome.
SPEAKER 05 :
Hey, Steve. How are you doing? I’m well, thanks. Yeah, first time on your program, and thank you for all that you’ve done. My pleasure. For the Christian community. I’ve got a quick question, all right? I was talking to a person the other day, all right, and… they asked me, how do you know that you’re saved, right? Or, yeah, how do you know you’re saved? I said, well, you believe, you repent, and you baptize, right? And I guess that didn’t go down well. Am I correct in that?
SPEAKER 09 :
Well, that is, in fact, what the Bible says, whoever believes and is baptized should be saved. But, of course, believing… is something that we’d have to ask, what does this really mean? Because there’s different ways that people believe things, and not all of them would say. For example, James tells us in James chapter 2, even the demons believe, and they tremble. But he’s not saying that they are saved, believing. What James is saying is the kind of faith demons have, and which many people might have the same kind of faith, is not a saving kind of a faith. Because he’s saying the kind of faith that saves a person is one that changes the person. And your behavior then begins to conform to what you say you believe. And that’s why James repeatedly says, faith without works is dead. Which simply means saying you believe something, but your behavior, that’s what he means by works, your behavior is kind of contrary to what you say you believe, would mean that… Well, maybe you believe it at some level, but you don’t believe it in the way that saved people are believing. Now, believing that Jesus is Lord and King, if this is a true saving belief, it will translate into a conviction that one needs to surrender to him, follow him, obey him. Now, there are people who have gone forward at what we call an altar call, maybe at some evangelistic event or at a church, and then they’ve said a prayer, and they’ve been baptized there, who may or may not have really repented and believed in the biblical way. Now, I’m not trying to raise doubts with anyone. I’m just saying it happens with some people. Some people will jump through the hoops, They’re guided by the evangelist or by the pastor. Okay, say this. Do this. And once you’ve said and done this, we’re going to say you’re saved. We’re going to baptize you. Yeah, well, but of course, we know that the Bible says some people have done that. But the way they believe is not any different than the way the demons do in the sense that they don’t really live for God at all. And so faith… if it’s a saving faith, produces a changed life, a life of obedience toward Christ. Now, it’s not just James who said this. Paul said exactly the same thing. In Galatians 5, 6, Paul said it’s not circumcision or uncircumcision, by which he means it’s not being Jewish or Gentile that matters anything to God. But what matters to God, he said, is a faith that works through love. Okay, so Paul’s the one who tells us most strongly that we’re saved by faith, and we’re not saved by works. We’re saved by faith alone, but he said it is a faith. If it saves you, it’s a faith that works through love, that you’re not saved by doing a certain number of works. You are saved by having the kind of heart, trusting in God and surrender to God, that kind of faith. that leads you to live a life of love and works of love. So it’s not just having certain beliefs. And so I don’t know who you were talking to. They seem to be unpersuaded. Now, they may have been in the wrong, and you might be in the right. You might, in fact, be a saved Christian person. But the fact that someone has said, I believe and I was baptized, That should be enough, but in these days it may not be because sometimes churches baptize people who have not really been genuinely converted but have jumped through kind of a ritualistic hoop of going down at an altar call and saying a prayer guided by the pastor. And, you know, they say the words, but do they mean them? Well, only God knows that. You see, the pastor doesn’t know how much they mean it. And it’s got to be something that’s meant. It’s got to be from the heart. Paul said in Romans 10, 9, he said, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus Christ is Lord and you believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. So if you have a heart belief, and I think the word heart there should be understood to be in contrast to merely an academic mind belief. I can be persuaded that a man… is capable of pushing a wheelbarrow across a rope over Niagara Falls. I can be objectively persuaded he can do it. But if he asks me to get in the wheelbarrow and submit to him pushing it over across the line, that’s asking for something, a kind of belief that’s really an investment on my part. It means I really do believe that if I risk my life on the basis of what I believe to be his competence, that it’ll be safe. And so there’s a lot of people who believe Jesus can save people, believe Jesus rose from the dead, believe all those things, but they’re not really invested. They’re not really willing to submit and to live by that belief. And so, again, I’m just speaking generically. I’m not speaking about you particularly because I don’t know you. You may be as saved as any person on earth ever was. And I don’t know why someone would be questioning that. Now, I will tell you this. Some people might be cultists who have a different idea of how to be saved, and because you haven’t done it their way, they say, oh, well, believing and being baptized, that’s not enough, so you’re not really saved. But if this was more of an ordinary kind of true Christian and not representative of some cultic beliefs, They may be having doubts because they’re not persuaded that you’re living like a Christian. And on the day of judgment, I think almost everybody will say to God, I believe, I believe, I believe. But the Bible says on the day of judgment we’ll be judged by our works. Why? Because our works will show if we did believe or not in the right way. And so maybe your friend or the person you were talking to was, you know, based on something maybe you’re doing or something where you’re living, might have had some doubts. I don’t know enough about you to have any doubts or confidence about the matter, but I’m seeking to answer your question that, you know, to say I believe I was baptized. Well, that is the way that people get saved, but I can’t tell what the quality was of what’s being called believing. In any given case, if a person believes and is baptized, and the result is they’re living an obedient life for Christ, they’re loving their neighbor, which, as Jesus said, the way people know you’re really a disciple of his, you know, if that’s what’s happening, then I would say, hey, yeah, you did get saved when you believed and were baptized. But the sad thing is that a person can do something that somebody calls believing and can do something that someone calls being baptized, right? And they haven’t really come to Christ in the same sense that people in biblical times were expected to do so. So I’m just going to I’ll leave it there because I don’t know enough about you. But I will ask you this. Was there some reason he was doubting it? Did he give you any reason?
SPEAKER 05 :
No, so the reason why he, well, he wasn’t doting. It’s just that he, because he’s from a United Pentecostal church. He was from a United Pentecostal church. Oh, I got you. I got you.
SPEAKER 09 :
And because you didn’t, right, you weren’t baptized in the name of Jesus only, and you didn’t speak in tongues, so you’re not saved according to him, right? Right.
SPEAKER 05 :
No, no, it’s just that he thinks that, well, because he’s from a United Pentecostal Church background, right? Right, well, they believe… You need to be baptized to be saved.
SPEAKER 09 :
Right, you need to be baptized.
SPEAKER 05 :
Because I mentioned baptism.
SPEAKER 09 :
Okay.
SPEAKER 05 :
Oh, you weren’t baptized? Because I mentioned baptism.
SPEAKER 09 :
You were not baptized yet?
SPEAKER 05 :
No, I’m baptized. I’m baptized.
SPEAKER 09 :
Okay, so let me just kind of explain where he’s coming from. The United Pentecostal Church believes that to be saved, you have to be baptized by them… And it has to be only in the name of Jesus. They say if you’re baptized in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit, that’s not real baptism. That doesn’t work. It has to be only in the name of Jesus. My guess is if you’re baptized by someone other than them, you probably were baptized as I was in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. And they don’t think that’s legitimate baptism. That’s one issue. The other is they believe that to be saved you also have to be baptized in the Spirit and with the evidence of speaking in tongues, which I’m assuming you have not done. If you had done that, they should be happy. But maybe not if you spoke in tongues in the wrong Pentecostal church and it wasn’t the United Pentecostal church. I don’t know. All I can say is knowing that it was the United Pentecostals talking to you and knowing that they have their own ideas about what baptism has to be and that you apparently didn’t get baptized in a way that satisfies them, I’d have to say I guess I’m not surprised by that. But suffice to say they have views that are their very own. They’re just as much a group with unique views as the Jehovah’s Witnesses are or the Mormons are. They believe in Jesus in the sense that we would say we believe in Jesus, but they have different ideas of what saves a person. They believe Jesus doesn’t save anyone unless they’re baptized only in the name of Jesus and have spoken in tongues. They do not have the authority of scripture to make those statements. But as with all cults, they don’t mind. They have scriptures they use, which to them are sufficient to make these points. But they don’t have, in my opinion, the grasp of sufficient knowledge. amount of scripture to understand what the whole nature of salvation is. Anyway, so yeah, I mean, I don’t know if those particular issues were mentioned, like speaking in tongues, but that’s what he’s thinking. That’s what United Pentecostals believe differently than other Christians. So just so you’d understand where he’s coming from there. Okay, let’s talk to Bruce in Napa, Idaho. Napa, Idaho. Excuse me, Bruce, welcome to The Narrow Path.
SPEAKER 03 :
Oh, thank you, Steve. I’ve been listening a long time. I also am originally from California. I know where Temecula is. When I found out about your program, I thought, how come I didn’t know when I was living in San Diego?
SPEAKER 09 :
Well, I also have lived in Idaho, and I know where Nampa is, so we know where each other are.
SPEAKER 03 :
I’m waiting for you to have a group up here in Nampa. I would love to meet you face-to-face.
SPEAKER 09 :
Someone has to set it up, and I’ll be there.
SPEAKER 03 :
I will talk to some friends. My question for you is this. I’ve been a long-time Bible student and Bible teacher for over 50 years. And I grew up believing in the Father, Son, Holy Spirit. I’ve been baptized. I was just listening to the other caller. That was very interesting. And recently I did a verse-by-verse study and teaching through the book of Revelation. And In the book of Revelation, as it’s closing up in chapters 20 and 21, 22, it talks about the throne of the Father and of the Lamb. Twice in a row or so, the throne of the Father and of the Lamb. I’m thinking, well, where’s the throne of the Holy Spirit? And I couldn’t answer questions. Well, see, there is no Holy Spirit. And I said, well, I tend to differ. How do you make sense of that, Steve? I know you’ve studied through Revelation.
SPEAKER 09 :
Yes, I have. Yeah, the Holy Spirit is in the church. And so when John is caught up into heaven, for example, in Revelation 4 and 5, he sees the throne. When he sees the throne and he sees the Father apparently on the throne, then in chapter 5 he sees the Lamb there also, separate from the Father. And then later, or even earlier… Jesus speaks to the church and says to him who overcomes, I will grant to sit with me on my throne even as I have overcome and am seated with my father on his throne. So that’s verse 20 of Revelation 3. Right.
SPEAKER 06 :
I’m sorry, verse 21.
SPEAKER 09 :
Excuse me. Revelation 3.21. So Jesus said he has overcome, and he is seated with his Father on his throne. So that throne would be the throne of the Father and of the Son. They’re both seated together. It’s not just Revelation, but from Psalm 110, verse 1, and on through the New Testament, it says the Messiah sits at the right hand of God, the Father. I mean, we’re told that numerous times. So the throne… The throne where the Father is seated, Christ is seated too, and therefore to call it the throne of the Father and of God and of the Lamb is quite natural. Now, the Holy Spirit is not sitting on a throne in heaven. He’s inhabiting a temple made of living stones, which is called the body of Christ, the temple of the Holy Spirit. He’s with us here. So John doesn’t see him in heaven sitting on a throne either. And I don’t, you know, I can’t sort out all the difficult things that come along with the Trinity doctrine. But I also can’t throw any scriptures out because they’re difficult to wedge in, you know. All I can say is I’m not too terribly surprised. that John sees the Father and the Son in heaven, because that’s who is in heaven right now, the Father and Jesus in his right hand. The Holy Spirit has been sent to earth, and his home, his habitation is among men with us here now. We are his temple. We are the temple of the Holy Spirit. So I think that’s why he’s not seen in Revelation.
SPEAKER 03 :
Well, that’s a very… Succinct answer. I love your teachings. I haven’t gone to your website yet. I want to read a lot more. But you and I are just about the same generation. I turn another 10 years old next Friday, so I’ll be 70. But growing up in Orange County and being part of the Maranatha movement, I really got caught up in the late, early 70s mid-70s and late-70s. I was actually working in a church ministry there in Orange County, and I took some of our kids down to the beach, happened to meet this guy who was having a big gathering. We had lots of kids, and he said, well, this is our beach, and we’re having a service here. Would you like to join us? And it turned out to be Chuck Smith. I didn’t realize who he was at the time. You didn’t know who he was? I didn’t know who he was, no.
SPEAKER 09 :
Okay, well, Bruce, I’m looking at a clock that says I only have about three minutes left. I’ve got two people waiting.
SPEAKER 03 :
I’ll let you go. Thanks for the call.
SPEAKER 09 :
Hey, it’s good to hear your story, brother, and thanks for calling. Okay.
SPEAKER 03 :
God bless you.
SPEAKER 09 :
Bye now. Okay, let’s see. Les in Kansas City, Missouri. Welcome to The Narrow Path.
SPEAKER 04 :
Hi, Steve. First-time caller. I’ve been listening to your program for a while. Enjoy your work. I have a quick question that I’m sure you’ve been asked before, and I don’t want to pick up your time with discussion, so I’ll take your answer over to the air. But I worship with the churches of Christ, and we believe that baptism by immersion is necessary for salvation. We cite Acts 2.38, other verses and examples of baptism. Many of my friends, though, belong to denominations where they believe that all you have to do is repent, repent, Accept the Lord into your heart and believe and say the sinner’s prayer or something like that. And they primarily cite John 3.16, which just mentions belief. How do you reconcile Acts 2.38 and John 3.16?
SPEAKER 09 :
Well, of course, John 3.16 only mentions believe, but it doesn’t mention repent. It doesn’t mention accept Jesus. It doesn’t mention baptism. But other passages mention these things. I mean, Acts 2.38, when people said to Peter, what must we do? He said, repent. Now, he didn’t even say believe. He just said, repent and be baptized. Everyone of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and you receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. So he mentioned three things. And he didn’t even mention believing. I think the reason is because they actually did believe. They just sort of preached and they were asking him because they believed what he said. Now they need to know what to do next. They said, you need to repent, you need to be baptized, and you need to receive the Spirit. And then, of course, I’m sure Church of Christ people always mention 1 Peter 3 where it says baptism now saves us. My quick answer is the New Testament makes four things sort of identified with being converted. One is repenting, believing, being baptized, and receiving the Spirit. And these things, I believe, all are part of conversion. And they were all considered to be kind of one event because they did it all at once. They didn’t stretch it out over weeks or months. When a person believed, they had to repent. They had to be baptized generally the same day. and be filled with the Spirit. So that was what they did. So commonly they would mention one of these things simply as shorthand for the whole process, which included all four, in my opinion. So when John 3.16 says, whoever believes, well, believes obviously is part of that process of all the things that were natural to do in conversion. I’m out of time. Thanks for joining us.
