Join us in this engaging episode as Steve Gregg opens the floor to a dynamic discussion on Torah observance and the fundamental differences between the Old and New Covenants. With callers sharing unique perspectives, we delve into the spiritual depths behind rituals and discuss why mere tradition may fall short of true spiritual fulfillment. Is the modern-day observation of Torah a significant misunderstanding of biblical teachings? Tune in to hear insights about the New Testament’s stance on spiritual cleanness and why obedience to old laws may not equate to obedience to God today. Continuing on, the conversation takes a
SPEAKER 04 :
Good afternoon and welcome to the Narrow Path radio broadcast. My name is Steve Gregg and we’re live for an hour each weekday afternoon. We have an open phone line for you to call if you want to call in with questions about the Bible or maybe disagreements you have with the host. We’ll be glad to talk to you. The number to call is 844-484-5737. Once again, that number is 844-484-5737. And, of course, I’ve been announcing for a while, this weekend I’m beginning… an 11-day itinerary, speaking 11 days in a row in the Midwest, starting in the Grand Rapids area, Michigan, continuing into the week, into next week in other places in Michigan, and then ultimately going to be in Indiana and Illinois by the end of that trip. So it begins this Friday in the Grand Rapids area. If you live in those states and have any interest in perhaps coming to one of these meetings, you can go to our website, thenarrowpath.com, look under the tab that says Announcements, and you’ll find the dates and times and places for all those meetings. So, again, that’s thenarrowpath.com under Announcements. Our first caller today is Donovan, who’s calling from Colchester, Illinois. And, Donovan, welcome to The Narrow Path. Thanks for calling. Well, thank you, Steve. How are you doing?
SPEAKER 03 :
Good. Yeah, I just actually kind of have a couple observations and just want to know your thoughts. I’ve been listening to your debates on Torah keeping and the Sabbath. And it’s one thing I find kind of interesting is, is, I don’t know, the seeming inability for them to grasp the spiritual aspects of the shadows and also the fulfillment. And then another observation, it seems like they really try to bring in, I guess, to solidify their argument, they try to bring in, like, obedience, like the seriousness if you disobey this, which is very different from the way you do it. And so it’s just two things, two observations I was curious about. to hear your thoughts about that.
SPEAKER 04 :
Okay, yeah. I mean, I personally think that Torah observance is a mistake that is made by people who do not know the difference between the Old Covenant and the New Covenant, and seem to not even be aware that there is a New Covenant, or that the Torah was the Old Covenant, and that the coming of the New Covenant made the Old Covenant obsolete, according to Hebrews 8, verse 13. So, I mean, that’s kind of a major mis- on their part. And you have to wonder how people can read the Bible without seeing that. But I think it must be, well, I mean, I don’t mean to speak evil of anybody, but I mean, this is a difference between the Jews of Jesus’ day and of the Old Testament times, some of them, and the Christian norms. And that is that the Jews were ritualistic Christians. the prophets were continually rebuking them, and Jesus was too, because they kept rituals, and they thought rituals were what commands a man to God. And Jesus rebuked that in many ways. He said, you know, you can ritualistically keep a moral life, but if you’re having lust in your heart and anger in your heart, you know, you’re just as guilty. In other words, there’s a spiritual… phenomenon that outweighs the outward. And Jesus especially made this clear when he said it’s not what goes into a man’s mouth that defiles him, but what comes out of his mouth, because what comes out of his mouth is from his heart. What he’s saying is you Jews think that you remain clean ritually by not eating ritually unclean foods. But why would God care about that? I mean, all those rituals are symbolic of spiritual things. And, you know, the symbols are of no value particularly. I mean, they were teaching devices and they have value in that respect, but they don’t have any ultimate value in making a man a good man or a bad man. That comes from what he is inside. And so the entire focus of the New Testament is the spiritual. In fact, the New Testament teaches that those rituals had very little to do with what was going on inside, although they were types and shadows. They symbolize things that actually are inside. You know, ritual uncleanness is no doubt an image representing spiritual uncleanness. But ritual cleanness is not the same thing as spiritual cleanness. It’s just something that represents it in the rituals. But now, you know, that was the shadow, Paul said in Colossians. That was a shadow. The reality has come in Christ. And the reality is spiritual. The rituals were the shadows. And there’s a certain kind of person, and I don’t want to say that they must not be born again, although the Bible does indicate that unless you’re born of the Spirit of God, you will not see the kingdom of God. You will not see the spiritual nature of what Jesus established. Paul said that natural men do not receive the things of the Spirit. They’re spiritually discerned, and they seem like foolishness to the natural man. So you’ve got to have a transformation. You’ve got to be born of the Spirit. You’ve got to be taught by the Spirit. You’ve got to be led by the Spirit. None of those things have anything to do with keeping rituals. And yet, there’s a certain temperament. And this is not just with the Torah observant people. It’s not just with the Jews. It’s probably with all human beings, that is, in all races and so forth. There are no doubt people who have this temperament, which is they’re fascinated with ritual. They’re fascinated with liturgy. They’re fascinated with religion. but they miss the whole point. They don’t have any spiritual traits that correspond with the things that their religious say they believe. And so, I mean, I think there’s a certain kind of people who really has problems with the fact that you say, well, you know, eating unclean foods is symbolic, right? for doing unclean things or having an unclean heart. And the unclean heart is all that God’s really looking at. It’s not looking at the food you’re eating. Now, they say, but why did God command it? Well, there’s an answer to that. But he didn’t command it to us. And that’s the point. There are reasons God commanded the Old Testament because the law was a schoolmaster to lead us to Christ, to teach us things. And these were lessons. They weren’t lessons in spirituality. although they were lessons which had their fulfillment in spiritual things. And, you know, the way that God used them to teach the Jews these things, they didn’t learn them very well in most cases, but some did. There were spiritual Jews too, and they’re the ones who came to Christ and became the first Christians. But still, even when Jesus was preaching, the majority of the Jews were spiritual. externalist. They were ritualists. They were not spiritual. And that’s what Jesus complained about them. So the irony is that these Torah observant people usually are people who have been already Christians. Or at least they say they are. They think they are. We have to remember that not everybody who says they’re a Christian has been born of the Spirit. And if you’ve not been born of the Spirit, I guess then if you’re the kind of temperament that leans toward rituals, you’re going to be fascinated with those rituals. and think they’re important. But it’s much better to be born of the Spirit, to be taught by the Spirit, to be led by the Spirit, and to realize, hey, rituals are just things you do on the outside that have no moral or spiritual connection to doing them, which is why the prophets, Isaiah and Jeremiah and Ezekiel and all the others, they chastised Israel because they kept the rituals, and they thought that was good. But they didn’t have the spiritual part in their heart, which meant what they were doing was of no value before God. So, yeah, I think the Torah Observer Movement really misses the point. And I think that the majority of those in it, I can’t speak for all of them, but they obviously have a missing piece in their spiritual grasp. of reality, if they think that these kinds of things really are the things that really God’s excited about and that he thinks they’re important. He says they’re not. So I’d just as soon say they’re not also. Anyway.
SPEAKER 03 :
Yeah. Yeah, thank you very much. You touched on my thoughts there, and I just also want to share real quick. I heard A.W. Tozer, you know, this was years back, something I downloaded, saying that the easiest thing to do is to do the external things. And I just, anyways, you touched on my thoughts, and I thank you very much.
SPEAKER 04 :
Absolutely. Yeah, keeping Sabbath externally, how hard is that? You know, you just sit still. You just don’t do anything. Now, some people who have an itch to do stuff might find it a bit difficult to sit still, but literally it is much easier to do nothing for a day, which is what the Sabbath law was, than to actually enter into that spiritual rest, which requires faith. It requires a discipline of mind. It, you know, it requires understanding of deeper things. And yet in Hebrews 4, it says, let us strive to enter into that rest. Well, you wouldn’t have to strive to enter into rest. literal Sabbath-keeping, you just stop doing stuff. That’s not striving. You don’t have to strive. But to enter into a spiritual state of rest, you have to strive against your own nature and your own tendency to want to work for your own righteousness and things like that. So, yeah, I agree with Tozer. It’s a lot easier to do the outer stuff as long as you’re not having to do the inner stuff. The inner part is obviously harder. I mean, it’s harder… I should say it’s easier to refrain from committing adultery with your neighbor’s wife than it is to refrain from having thoughts about such things. I mean, clearly, the spiritual is, in a sense, more difficult. But people who have been born of the Spirit and walk in the Spirit realize that although it goes against our nature and that’s what makes it difficult, the Holy Spirit is there to change us, to enable us, to reorient us. And he does. He changes us into the image of Christ by stages. But more and more, we recognize that it’s really the work of God, not us. Whereas external rituals, that’s the work of us. We do that. If we do it at all, we’re doing it. God’s not doing it. But what’s inside is God’s work, which is, in a sense, more difficult for us to do on our own, but easier when it’s actually God doing it and not us that have to do it. We just have to cooperate. We have to yield. And that’s not the easiest thing in the world to do. All right. I appreciate your call, brother. David in Chino, California. Welcome to The Narrow Path.
SPEAKER 08 :
It is Chico, not Chino.
SPEAKER 04 :
Oh, I’m sorry. And my call screener was right. I just read it wrong. Go ahead.
SPEAKER 08 :
Okay. I know I get frustrated, and I believe you do, too, when people call in, don’t get to the point, ask a question. And I know that the greatest talk show host of all time, Rush Limbaugh, eliminated that problem, or at least shortened it, by using the phrase ghettos, which covers all the things that people want to say in heaping phrases or just telling a story. I think it just shortens, it could shorten.
SPEAKER 04 :
You mean like what you’re doing right now, right?
SPEAKER 08 :
Yeah, right, exactly.
SPEAKER 04 :
Okay, okay. Do you have a question?
SPEAKER 08 :
Have you ever thought about doing something like that?
SPEAKER 04 :
Telling stories? Or telling people not to tell stories?
SPEAKER 08 :
Yes.
SPEAKER 04 :
Well, I do tell them sometimes. I mean, I realize that many people’s question has a back story. And they want me to know why the question matters to them, what the context is, because, you know, there might be many things about the question that I could answer that were not relevant to the specific case they’re talking about. So I allow a certain setup. And I do encourage periodically callers, don’t set this up too much. Get to the question. And if I need to know what the setup is, then I’ll ask for more information. Because so many times, after people set it up for so long and they ask a question, sometimes the question, the setup was unnecessary. They’re just trying to get warmed up to get to the question. And in many cases, if they had asked the question without the setup, it would have been the same question and answered the same way. So, I mean, to get to the question is fine. If I say, listen, I need more backstory here, then they could give it then.
SPEAKER 08 :
Okay, I got it. Here’s the question. I have two friends, actually four people, two different couples, living together, not being married, in adulterous relationships. I don’t want to alienate them, make them mad at me, but how do I approach them in a way that will not allow that?
SPEAKER 04 :
Do they call themselves Christians?
SPEAKER 08 :
Yes.
SPEAKER 04 :
Well, I would first of all personally read 1 Corinthians 5 and realize that what Paul has said is that if these people were not Christians, you just have to tolerate it and leave it to God to convict them. They’re not our problem because they’re not our family. But Paul says if somebody claims to be a Christian… then to whatever extent they’re not lying about that, they are part of our family. And they are part of our responsibility to address, to correct. I mean, in Galatians 6, Paul said, Brethren, if any of you are overtaken in a fault, you who are spiritual, restore such a one in the spirit of meekness, considering yourself meek. lest you also be tempted. In other words, if somebody who’s a brother or sister is going the wrong way, then they are going in a direction that’s going to cost them more than they apparently realize. And we do them a great favor by letting them know that. Because Paul said in 1 Corinthians 6, 9 and 10, that those who do these things, he lists many among them as fornication, which is what your friends are involved in. He says those who do these things will not inherit the kingdom of God. Now, this is, I don’t, you know, they may feel that you’re being judgmental if you let them know that, but you’re not being more judgmental than if they were joyriding down on a country road and you said, oh, you may not know this, but You know, the bridge is out up there and it’s pitch black and foggy. You wouldn’t know that. I just came from there. It’s foggy. You’ll die if you go there, you know. Well, they may want to go there. And so what are you so judgmental about? Well, you know, if you know something, a danger that someone is in or something, some advice that will make them forever grateful that you did ultimately, and you withhold that information, that’s not very loving. And as much as they don’t want to hear it, you’re at least giving them the chance to hear it. If they don’t listen to you, then, I mean, Paul said in 1 Corinthians 5, I think it’s around 9 or 10 in that, he said if anyone calls himself a brother and is a fornicator or does these other things, he says don’t even eat with them. Don’t have any company with them. Why? This is considered to be discipline, church discipline. The idea is to let somebody know you can’t have the benefits of Christian fellowship, which are very great, and also live a life of rebellion against Christ at the same time. And, you know, it’s and therefore puts them in a position they have to make a choice. Now, unfortunately, modern Christians do not obey the Bible in this respect very often. There are churches that deliberately will not do what Paul said or what Jesus said. Jesus talked the same way in Matthew 18, verses 5 through 17. I have actually known of pastors who, when they were told that somebody who’s, you know, singing in their church or, you know, serving their church in some capacity, that that person is living in adultery. I’ve known of a pastor who said, well, we don’t practice church discipline here. In other words, we don’t care. Which means we don’t care what Jesus said. We don’t care what Paul said. We just care what we care about. And that, of course, is not a church because the church is the body of Christ and a body of Christ has a head called Christ. So anyone can claim to be a church, but only those who are following the head are really members of his body. So it’s their way of saying we are not really a church. We’re a religious club and we make our own rules. We don’t follow those that Jesus or Paul gave us. And as individuals, we have to realize that if I cut off somebody from fellowship because the Bible instructs me to do so, it may not be that it will have the impact on them that it should because other Christians will not obey the Scripture and they’ll just cut you out of their circle. But you’ll be the one who stands before God with a clean conscience for having done the right thing. They will be the ones who, according to Scripture, will not inherit the kingdom of God.
SPEAKER 08 :
And by the way, ghettos. By the way, what? Ghettos.
SPEAKER 02 :
Ghettos?
SPEAKER 08 :
Ghettos. Ghettos are all the good things that you deserve in your teaching.
SPEAKER 04 :
Oh, okay. I’m not quite I understand that, but I’ve got to take another call. David, we’ve been chatting a long time. God bless you. Okay. Carl in La Mesa, California. Welcome to The Narrow Path.
SPEAKER 02 :
Hello, Steve. My question is, when is it okay for Christians to lie? And I have a specific situation I’m dealing with in that regard.
SPEAKER 04 :
There’s two approaches to this which I think equally godly people have taken. In other words, it’s a gray area. Some might say, well, it’s not a gray area because the Ten Commandments says you shall not lie. Actually, it doesn’t say that. It doesn’t say that in the Ten Commandments. It says you shall not bear false witness against your neighbor. which is not exactly the same thing, although if you do bear false witness against your neighbor, you are lying, but not all lies would amount to bearing false witness against your neighbor. Bearing false witness against your neighbor is when you’re accusing him of something he didn’t do. That’s what that refers to. Now, nonetheless, the Bible does say very negative things about liars. You know, Revelation says the liars will not be in the New Jerusalem. But while some people say if you’re told one lie, you’re a liar, I’m not really sure if that’s what the Bible means by liars. I mean, I think there are people who habitually lie or will lie whenever it’s convenient for them. or will lie to take advantage of somebody, or will lie with nefarious intentions. There’s a lot of lying like that goes on, and I would say that people who are like that certainly would be regarded as liars. That’s their nature. That’s their habit. And so I would say that I don’t know that there’s an absolute state in the Scripture that says, All lies are sins. Now, I personally would, to my knowledge, would never lie knowingly. And that’s, you know, maybe I’m just too prideful, but it’s always been a matter of pride to me that I don’t lie. I tell people truth, you know, even truths that are unflattering about me. because I’d rather, again, I’d rather maintain a Christian clean conscience, and my conscience will not permit me to lie. But I recognize the possible legitimacy of another view, and that is that there’s obviously the kind of lying that the Bible usually describes is that which is done by dishonest people who are taking advantage of other people by deception. Whereas if you’re saving somebody’s life by telling a lie, maybe, and you’re doing nothing particularly for yourself, that might not be such a, that might not even be a bad thing. I’m not saying it’s okay. I’m saying there are people who see it that way. They say there’s a hierarchy of ethics, and there are. The Bible definitely has a hierarchy of duties that it gives us. Some things are more important than others. The most important being love. You know, the Bible says, God says, I will have mercy rather than sacrifice. Now, sacrifice was required, but he’d rather have mercy. Jesus referred to the Pharisees that they paid tithes of men, but they neglected the weightier matters of the law, which were justice and mercy and faithfulness. You know, there’s laws requiring the payment of tithes, but the laws requiring justice and mercy and faithfulness are weightier in the sight of God, apparently. So, Some say, well, there’s a hierarchy of morality in the mind of God, and rightly so, because it is possible to lie, which would generally be something you don’t want to do, and an honest person hopes to never be in a position to do so. But there might be a need, they would say, as Rahab lied about the presence of the two messengers she was hiding from the people in Jericho. She took God’s side. She deceived the local police about the whereabouts of these two Jewish men. And she let them out of the window and let them escape. So, I mean, she did lie. Now, some say, well, God didn’t approve of her lying. Well, I don’t know if he did or not. But at least we don’t read of her being condemned for it. She’s actually seen as a woman of faith. And even though people of faith sometimes do things that we wouldn’t recommend… uh being called a woman of faith means that’s how god viewed her he generally speaking he viewed her well even though we know she told a lie and there have been other people who’ve told lies not for in their own interest but in the interest of saving somebody else which they would say well the highest value of is love and doing for your neighbors you want done for you and uh you know, doing no harm to your neighbor. Paul said love does no harm to his neighbor. So some would say there are times it’s more loving to lie. And this would not be exactly the same thing as being a liar, because a liar would be somebody who is dishonest by nature and who practices deception and lying. A person who has lied on one occasion, might not be committing the same kind of lie in the mind of God. I don’t know. I still, as I said, have always taken the approach that I would rather not lie at all, even if it were to my advantage to do so. It’s a little more difficult if it’s someone else’s advantage. But I’m not going to judge anyone who takes either view because I don’t think I don’t think that all lies are the same. Or I should say, let’s just say that all misstatements are the same. Brother Andrew, now deceased, founded the Open Doors International Ministries. He was God’s smuggler. And he used this in the 60s, 50s, 60s, I think. He smuggled Bibles into closed countries, communist countries that didn’t allow the Bible in. And at border crossings, he did not tell them what he was doing and let them believe perhaps something that wasn’t true. I mean, like saying, I’m going to visit my brothers when they say, why are you coming? Well, that’s technically true, but it’s kind of a white lie because his real reason was not to visit them, but to bring them Bibles. But anyway, Brother Andrew’s view, and I believe that Richard Wurmbrandt also, who was tortured, and interrogated to give away the whereabouts of Christian leaders in the underground church in communist Romania, both of those men believed that you don’t owe the truth to somebody who doesn’t have a right to the information. Now, I don’t know if that’s exactly how God would describe things, but I consider both of those men very good men, even if they felt that they should lie sometimes. So I’m not their judge, and I think there are many Christians who feel the same way about that. And maybe God does too. We don’t have a word for him directly about that. Hey, I need to take a break. I hope that’s helpful. You’re listening to The Narrow Path. We have another half hour coming. Our website is thenarrowpath.com. I’ll be back in 30 seconds, so don’t go away.
SPEAKER 01 :
toward a radically Christian counterculture as well as hundreds of other stimulating lectures can be downloaded in mp3 format without charge from the narrow path website www.thenarrowpath.com there is no charge for anything at the narrow path website visit us and be amazed at all you’ve been missing that web address www.thenarrowpath.com
SPEAKER 04 :
Welcome back to the Narrow Path radio broadcast. My name is Steve Gregg, and we’re live for another half hour, taking your calls. Right now our lines are full, but if you want to take this number down and call in a while, a few minutes maybe. You may find a line has opened up. It happens a lot. The number to call if you have questions about the Bible or the Christian faith or want to disagree with the host is this number, 844-484-5737. That’s 844-484-5737. Our next caller today is Cola from Rochester Hills, Michigan, who I will be seeing, I think, next week. Hi, Cola.
SPEAKER 07 :
Hey, Steve. I just wanted to say thanks for everything you do, and I can’t wait for you to come to Michigan next week and hear you preach the word and fellowship with us. Me too. Hey, my question is, Steve, I’ve been listening to some of your tapes. I have historical premillennial views for the most part, but I’m very, very open to amillennialism. And I was curious as to when you say that usually those who don’t worship God are technically usually worshiping the state or the government. And so I guess the question that I was thinking about was when does certain levels of nationalism or, you know, nationalist pride, where does that cross lines? Or is there like maybe if you could elaborate on that for me, I sure would appreciate it.
SPEAKER 04 :
Oh, okay.
SPEAKER 07 :
Does that make sense?
SPEAKER 04 :
Well, I think my position is that people who don’t worship God have to find something else to worship and to trust in. And for most people, that would be the government. I suppose there’s at least a third option, if not some others. But a third option would be they’re just trusting in themselves. They’re going to go out in the woods and live in a cabin and be self-sufficient. They’re not going to look to the government or God if they’re not Christian. So there’s more than one alternative to worshiping God or trusting in God, the government being the main one, because most people actually, like you said, nationalism and patriotism are usually considered to be virtues, and therefore, if you’re not following God, It seems to make sense to be patriotic and fit in with the government as your primary authority over your life. At least to some it seems so. Now, where do you draw the line, though? Well, I don’t try to have instances of hazy lines that I’m not sure about. I’d say if the government makes laws or a government official commands me, to do something that clearly is contrary to what Christ commands me to do, then, as Peter said in Acts chapter 5, we must obey God rather than men. That’s the approach Daniel took when he was told he couldn’t pray to anyone except Darius for 30 days. It’s the approach that Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego took when they were told they had to bow to an image or die in the fire furnace. It’s the approach that the midwives in Egypt took in Exodus chapter 1 when they refused the Pharaoh’s orders to kill Jewish babies at birth. It certainly is the position the apostles took in many cases when they were commanded to stop preaching in the name of Jesus, which they had been commanded by Jesus to do. And throughout history, Christians have faced death and imprisonment and torture, as I was talking about Wurmbrandt and so forth in the last call. Throughout history, Christians have suffered martyrdom and persecution because the government wanted them to do something, and they just said, well, I’m sorry, that’s not open to me as a Christian. I’m a follower of Jesus. Now, what Jesus said, that probably should be the guide here, is render to Caesar the things that are Caesar’s and to God the things that are God’s. And knowing Jesus’ priorities, I think what he’s saying is, you know, give Caesar what he deserves insofar as it does not, you know, overturn what God deserves. You know, God has prior claim over the Christian’s loyalty. but God does not forbid us to obey governments. In fact, in general, he commands us to cooperate with governments if they are doing what God ordained them to do. And what God ordained the government to do, according to Romans 13, 1 through 7, And 1 Peter, I believe it’s in 1 Peter 2, I’m going to say 13 and 14, I think it is. In both places, we’re told to submit to governmental authority. But we’re told that they don’t have any authority except what God has given them. Paul said there is no authority but that which is of God. Jesus said the same thing to Pilate. You would have no authority over me if it wasn’t given to you from above. So, you know, we have to recognize that governments have authority, but the only authority they have is what God gives them, and he doesn’t give them absolute authority. Governments often like to usurp to themselves absolute authority, especially tyrants do, but God hasn’t given them absolute authority. So we have to recognize the sphere and boundaries of governmental authority that God has ordained, and obey them within those boundaries and don’t obey them outside those boundaries. So God has not ordained any government to tell you to disobey God. That’s not part of what he’s ordained for them. What has he ordained for them? The Bible says they’ve been ordained as God’s servants to execute evil. wrath on people who are evil. And that was criminals. So to punish criminals. But criminals are defined as people who are evil, not Christians. You know, Christians who are worshiping, you know, or going to church during COVID or something like that, those are not evil. They’re not break They’re not breaking any of God’s laws, and there’s no reason why the government should interfere with that. That’s none of the government’s business, actually. So there are things that are within the realm of what God ordained the government to do, but they don’t have any authority beyond what God has ordained them to do. That’s what Paul said in Romans 13. So that’s the way to look at it, I think.
SPEAKER 07 :
Okay, well, I appreciate your answer. Thank you so much. That helps. And again, I can’t wait to… to meet you and hear you teach the word over here in Detroit, Michigan. All right. Looking forward to it. Thanks. God bless you.
SPEAKER 04 :
God bless you, Kola. All right. Let’s talk next to David in Dallas, Texas. David, welcome to The Narrow Path.
SPEAKER 05 :
Thank you, Steve. Steve, can you tell me how much our millennialists believe in and follow Bible prophecy?
SPEAKER 04 :
Of unfulfilled Bible prophecy? Is that what you said?
SPEAKER 05 :
Well, just Bible prophecy as such in total, how much do they believe in it and follow it, in your understanding?
SPEAKER 04 :
Well, all of the Amillennialists I know, including myself, believe in all Bible prophecy and follow it.
SPEAKER 05 :
Okay. But I’ve heard you discuss it before a little bit, and some of it is deemed symbolic, you know, what you’re interpreting, and others will interpret it a different way maybe, but In regards to where we stand in our world history right now in this United States, where do you think we stand in Bible prophecy? Here I’m going to give you a verse to go by, kind of. The verse in the Bible is talking about after the dispersion in 70 A.D. from Israel, that Israel would return back to their land, which they did. In 1948, when they became the official nation of Israel with the United States, the only nation standing with them to do it in the entire world.
SPEAKER 04 :
Could you tell me which verse you’re referring to?
SPEAKER 05 :
Well, Noah came, but it’s in the Bible. Everybody that’s hearing this knows what I’m talking about. It talks about… Well, let me clarify this.
SPEAKER 04 :
Let me give you some words.
SPEAKER 05 :
Do you have some verses?
SPEAKER 04 :
I don’t need words. I need verses. Do you have verses? Okay.
SPEAKER 05 :
It says Israel would return back to their land. I agree. Do you agree with me that dispersion happened in 70 AD when Rome drove the Jews out of Israel?
SPEAKER 04 :
Of course there was a dispersion in 70 AD, but it wasn’t the first one. The first one was when the Babylonians did that in 586 BC, and it was of the return of the exiles from that dispersion that those prophecies refer to. You’ll find that after the return of the exiles from Babylon, which began in 539 B.C. and has continued ever since, but the beginning of it was in 539 B.C. and it’s been going on ever since. After that point, you don’t really have predictions about another dispersion and another return. Many Christians don’t pay close attention to the context of prophecy. I’ve made a chart, actually it’s posted at our website, Matthew713.com, under charts. I think it’s under charts. I made a chart with 50, well, I think it’s 40 Old Testament and something like seven New Testament passages, which are used by premillennialists to say this passage says that the Jews are going to return in the end times to their land. Now, I’ve got 40 verses. You didn’t bring any to me, but I have 40 of them in my chart. And I have on the left hand, I have the text of the verses. And on the right column, I have my commentary on them. In my commentary, I point out the time the prophecy was made, the time it was fulfilled, and what the New Testament writers said about that. And it’s that very kind of analysis that forced me to become an amillennialist many years ago. Because I was a dispensationalist. I believed those prophecies were talking about bringing back the exiles who had been exiled in 70 A.D. But I realized that there’s actually no reference to 70 A.D. Zechariah 14, I think, mentions 70 AD, but almost everybody else thinks that’s talking about the end of the world. But I don’t see anything in the Bible that says there’s going to be a dispersion after the coming of the Messiah from which the Jews will return and their city will be restored. I know of many passages that say that Nebuchadnezzar is going to take them into Babylon. and their temple is going to be destroyed, and then God will bring them back and restore the temple and restore the people and their country. And that did happen. That happened over 500 years before Jesus was born. And after it happened, no more predictions were made about it. So once something has happened that was predicted, if we’re going to say, well, it’s going to have to happen again, we’ll have to say, why? I mean, if someone says, well, aren’t there dual fulfillments of prophecies? There are a few, I think, but we are told in the Bible about them. That is, they’re identified for us. We can’t just make them up out of our head. I mean, for example, there’s a prophecy that says that Jesus would be born in Bethlehem. He was. If I said, yeah, well, that’s going to be a double fulfillment. Jesus is going to be born in Bethlehem again someday. You’d have every reason to say, where are you getting that? And I’d have to say, out of my own imagination, because it’s not in the Bible. If I say, well, the Bible says God’s going to bring back his people from the exile, and he did, and you’re telling me, oh, that’s going to happen again, I’d have to say, where are you getting that? And I’d like to know.
SPEAKER 05 :
You there?
SPEAKER 04 :
Yeah.
SPEAKER 05 :
Okay. Well… It says, part of that verse goes on to say… Which verse? That all people that would see Israel would come back to their land. And it happened in 1947-48. Wait, which verse are you referring to, David?
SPEAKER 04 :
David, which verse are you referring to?
SPEAKER 05 :
You said it says in that verse… I’ll tell you, the Bible is what I’m referring to, the King James Bible.
SPEAKER 04 :
It doesn’t matter whether it’s the King… David, let me jump in here. Uh… It doesn’t matter whether you read the King James Bible or any other Bible. They all have the same prophecies in them. And they all have essentially the same sentences in them with maybe sometimes worded only very slightly different but without different information. So it has nothing to do with whether you’re reading the King James. It has to do with whether you’re reading an actual passage in the King James, an actual passage that’s in the Bible. You keep mentioning this verse, this verse. If you’re reading a verse, you should be able to tell me what the reference is because I’d like to find out what we’re dealing with here.
SPEAKER 05 :
Well, have a good day.
SPEAKER 04 :
All right, David. Thanks for your call. All right, let’s talk to Jim from Sacramento, California. Jim, welcome.
SPEAKER 11 :
Hi, Steve. I’m on a bad phone, so I’m going to be as quick as possible. But I’m facing a cardiology assessment on Thursday, and hopefully Hopefully, it’s going to mean that I can get a pacemaker installed in my heart. Good. I’ve been having trouble with something called bradycardia. My heart beats way too slow. The other morning, it was all the way down to 22 beats a minute.
SPEAKER 04 :
Well, you told me over a decade ago that you had congestive heart failure. Correct. Okay, so. So, that’s good. What can I do for you, Jim?
SPEAKER 11 :
Well, I would call to ask everybody to please pray for me the next few days.
SPEAKER 04 :
That you can get a pacemaker?
SPEAKER 11 :
Yes, and that the Lord will see fit to restore my heart to normal operation so that I can get back into my missionary work that I’ve had to temporarily let go.
SPEAKER 04 :
Yes, for our listeners who don’t know, and I’m going to put you on hold because that crackling is a little annoying on the phone line, but Jim has been calling for probably almost 30 years, this program, and he’s had lots of health problems. He’s been institutionalized a lot with health issues, and among them are heart issues. There’s others, too. So, Jim, I’m going to ask our listeners just to remember you. Jim in Sacramento. and you’re going to be facing a cardiologist, and hopefully the Lord will either heal you or make it possible for the doctors to help you. Maybe a pacemaker would be the trick. But I’m glad you’re still in the land of the living. I’ll tell you, audience, Jim has told me that I think twice or three times he has been dead. He was in an accident in a bus, a metro bus in Santa Cruz once, and he’s had other issues. He’s been hospitalized many times. He’s got medical issues as long as your arm and a list of them. But anyway, he’s been hanging in there. And I guess, Jim, God’s got some reason for you to stay with us. But, yeah, we’ll be praying for you. I’m sure you’ve got hopefully a lot of people in our audience who will be doing so. All right, brother?
SPEAKER 11 :
Thank you.
SPEAKER 04 :
All right. Thanks for your call, Jim. Okay. We’re going to talk next to Ruth in Surrey, B.C. By the way, some lines have opened up. You may be able to get through if you call at this time. The number is 844-484-5737. That’s 844-484-5737. Ruth, welcome to The Narrow Path. Thanks for calling.
SPEAKER 10 :
Steve, I’ve been trying to get your correct email. I’ve tried twice, one with the Greg 7-2-2-5, and then Narrow Path as well, and they don’t go through. Is there another one you could give me?
SPEAKER 04 :
Well, the email I receive mail every single day in abundance is S-underscore- Greg, G-R-E-G-G, two Gs. F what? F as in Steve, then the underscore mark, the underlining mark by itself, and then Greg, G-R-E-G-G, and then 7225 at yahoo.com. And for those of you who didn’t write that down and want to email me, you can go to our website.
SPEAKER 10 :
That’s what I tried, Steve, and two dots, S and a dash. Greg, 7-2-2-5.
SPEAKER 04 :
Two dots? There’s no dots.
SPEAKER 10 :
One on top of each other. A semicolon, is it?
SPEAKER 04 :
A colon? No, no, no. My email doesn’t have a semicolon in it. Or a colon. No. Let’s just, I’ll give it to you again. I’ll give it to you again. It’s S, it’s S underscore colon. Greg, 7225 at yahoo.com. There’s no colon in it, and maybe that’s the problem if you’ve been putting a colon in it. By the way, my email address is at the bottom of the main page of our website.
SPEAKER 10 :
What I wanted to get through to tell you how thrilled I was that you talked about the Zionist Jews and that you figured they weren’t… There is no verse saying that they should be back, the Jews should be back in Jerusalem at this time, because the Bible keeps mentioning the house of Israel and the house of Judah, and they will return when the Lord comes. That’s what the scripture says. I’ve been studying for 15 years, and I’ve got my thesis all written up, and I was wondering if I could send it to you, because you never know too much if you make good use of it. I’m in my 90s now, but I’ve written it all down, and no one believes me when I tell them this, and I was kind of thrilled that David you were talking to, I hope you realize that the right verses to read… for containing that, you know?
SPEAKER 04 :
Yeah, I hear you, Ruth. Hey, as far as you sending it to me, I can’t say I’m not interested in it, but I will tell you this, just so you’ll know how things stand. People continually send me documents, essays they’ve written, or essays that someone else has written they want me to read, or even hard copies of the books they’ve written. I’ve got a stack of books that people send me, which I will never get around to reading. And it’s not because I don’t, not because I am not interested, It’s because on my shelves there are 1,000 books that I am interested in reading, and I usually, you know, the topics I choose to read on are the ones I’m going to be teaching on or that I’m learning something new about. So I’m saying if you want, you can send me your document, but I’m not going to be able to promise that I’ll get around to reading it. So, I mean, again, I get many, many unsolicited papers and books from people, and I’m not sure that I’ve read any of them. Yeah, maybe one or two over the years, but – I’m not in short supply of reading material in my office, in my library. But I don’t forbid you to send it. I’ll take a look at it, but that doesn’t mean I’ll get a chance to read it. I’m glad you’re writing. In your 90s, that’s tremendous. I mean, good to be productive and thinking in your 90s. And God bless you.
SPEAKER 10 :
I’m just getting back to thanking you for saying that about the Jews.
SPEAKER 04 :
All right, sister. Well, it’s great to hear from you.
SPEAKER 10 :
Okay. Okay.
SPEAKER 04 :
God bless you.
SPEAKER 10 :
Bye-bye.
SPEAKER 04 :
Bye now. All right. By the way, in saying that I don’t believe there’s any particular prophecies that predicted a return of the exile that occurred in 70 A.D. in the last days, a restoration of the nation of Israel, I need to make something clear because some people who point this out, and I’ve been pointing it out for like about 40 years now, and by the way, Well, I won’t get into this, but there are even dispensationalists who recognize that what’s happening there now is not what was predicted in the Bible. J. Vernon McGee being among them, J. Vernon McGee knew that the restoration of Israel in 1948 was not a fulfillment of prophecy, and he said so very clearly because he said that all the prophecies about Israel returning to the land assume or state that they will return because they have come back to faith. And the nation of Israel is not a nation of faith. They’re a secular nation in which not even one Jew in five in Israel even believes in the Jewish religion. and not one Jew in a hundred believes in Christ in Israel. So anyway, that’s the way things stand. So they obviously haven’t come back to faith. And J. Vernon McGee said the prophecies of the Bible require that they do so, and therefore McGee said this is not the fulfillment of prophecy. Now, I even disagree with him because he was dispensational, but I agree with him that this is not. But many people who point this out are anti-Israel. I am not. I’m not anti-Israel. I’ve never been anti-Israel. There’s a lot of people who think that Israel should be wiped out and things like that. I am not at all of that mind. I’m not against Israel. I’m not against the Palestinians. I think people should live in peace. And I think people, you know, if they are legally settled in a territory that is, you know, internationally recognized as theirs, well… You know, I don’t say that was something God predicted or ordained, but I don’t think he predicted or ordained that America, that we would take, you know, from the Native Americans, you know, North America. But that is the course history has taken. And to ask us to turn the clock back now and say, okay, somehow us white people are all going to go back to Europe and we’ll let the Native Americans have the country back. Uh, that’s just not the way history progresses. It doesn’t happen. You can’t go backward like that. You can write some wrongs, uh, of the past, but you can’t just make it all, you can’t undo it. So whatever happened, whatever wrongs may have been done to the Jews or to the Palestinians, you know, 80 years ago, uh, Not many people living today had anything to do with those wrongs. I mean, most people were the children or grandchildren of those people. And things are what they are. I’m not among those who say that, you know, the nation of Israel shouldn’t exist. I don’t say that. I’m just saying that if we look for a prophecy that somehow mandates that the modern state of Israel should exist, we come up pretty short because I don’t believe there is one in there. And I, by the way, have looked. And if you don’t know me, I ran a Bible school for 16 years where I taught through all the prophets verse by verse each year. And then I’ve taught through the prophets in other schools too, other seminaries and things like that. So I’ve taught through the prophets verse by verse probably 20 times or more. And so I’m kind of aware of what is and isn’t in there. And so, you know, I’m not saying I know everything. I’m just saying I’m pretty sure you’re not going to find anything in there that you can exegete to say that the modern state of Israel was predicted. But that doesn’t mean we have to be against the modern state of Israel. I think we should judge Israel and every other nation, our own included, according to their deeds, not according to some imaginary… that somehow the Bible says they’re supposed to be there. Okay, Ricky in San Diego, California. We’ll leave a couple minutes. Go.
SPEAKER 06 :
Yes, real quick, my first-time caller. Thank you. I’m just now getting back into trying to understand the Word of God, and I joined, I didn’t join, but I attend a Bible study with the World Church, and they were trying to tell me, or they mentioned to me that Ahsan Nguyen, I hope I’m saying that right,
SPEAKER 04 :
was jesus coming again and it kind of confused me and i’m lost right now okay that’s a cult okay that’s a cult and no wonder it’s confusing yeah jesus has not come back yet jesus said if anyone tells you that he has come back and they say look he’s over here he’s over there jesus said don’t believe them don’t go and check it out he said when the son of man returns it’ll be like when the You know, lightning flashes from the east to the west. I mean, everyone will see it. That didn’t happen. And Jesus did say there would be false messiahs, false people saying, I’m he. And he said, if anyone tells you he’s back, Jesus said very directly, well, that will happen, but it’s a lie. Don’t follow it. So I’m glad you’re studying the Bible again, but I’d say get out of that cult and just study the Bible on your own or with a group of, you know, ordinary Christian people.
SPEAKER 06 :
Thank you, dear. I was doing like crazy over here, and it upset me to the point where I couldn’t deal with it no more.
SPEAKER 04 :
Yeah, I don’t blame you, brother. God bless you, and I’m glad you called. We’re out of time for today’s program. You’re listening to The Narrow Path. We are listener-supported. You can write to us at The Narrow Path, P.O. Box 1730, Temecula, California, 92593. Our website is thenarrowpath.com.
