Join Dr. James Dobson and his guest, Sandra Felton, the founder and president of Messy’s Anonymous, as they explore practical solutions for households struggling with disorganization. Sandra shares her personal journey of transformation and how it has empowered her to help others find harmony at home. In this episode, you’ll hear about key strategies that both ‘messies’ and their spouses can implement to navigate everyday conflicts and create a more peaceful and organized environment.
You’re listening to Family Talk, the radio broadcasting division of the James Dobson Family Institute. I am that James Dobson, and I’m so pleased that you’ve joined us today.
SPEAKER 02 :
Well, welcome to Family Talk. I’m Roger Marsh. You know, marriages thrive on differences. Amen? The unique qualities each spouse brings can create a rewarding, fulfilling partnership that honors God. But when those differences clash over everyday habits, especially when it comes to household organization, the result can be ongoing frustration and even conflict. On today’s edition of Dr. James Dobson’s Family Talk, we are continuing a classic conversation featuring Dr. Dobson and his guest, Sandra Felton. Now, Sandra is the founder and president of Messy’s Anonymous, and she has dedicated her life to helping people find harmony at home through understanding and practical solutions. She’s the author of more than 20 books on this subject, including The Messy’s Manual, Organizing Magic, and When You Live with a Messy. Sandra holds degrees from Columbia International University and the University of Miami, and she brings both personal experience as well as professional insight to this topic. You see, Sandra Felton is a self-described messy who learned to change her own patterns and now helps others do the same. On the last edition of Family Talk, Sandra began sharing practical advice for both messies and their spouses. On today’s broadcast, she will answer questions from a studio audience about some real-life messy situations. So here now is Dr. James Dobson to continue the conversation.
SPEAKER 06 :
Sandra Felton is back with us now for the second day, and she has written a book called When You Live With a Messy and talking about the spouse of a person who does have that disorganized temperament or for whatever reason is a messy. And we’re glad to have her back with us again. Sandra Felton is a high school teacher. She has taught math and English. And now, Sandra, you teach special education, don’t you?
SPEAKER 07 :
Yes, I do. It’s a wonderful area to be in, and I have great kids.
SPEAKER 06 :
You know, when you teach math students, if you’re teaching advanced math, you have the brightest students, and now you’re teaching those in some contexts with less ability. You’ve gone from one part of the continuum to another in this regard. Why?
SPEAKER 07 :
Well, I guess I just always have liked special ed. To tell you the honest truth, I think when the Lord said, and as much as you’ve done it unto the least of these, my brethren, you’ve done it unto me. And I find it an opportunity to serve in that way, and I just find it a privilege to be able to carry out the Lord’s instructions.
SPEAKER 06 :
Well, we share that. I don’t know if you’re aware of it. I worked for a time in a hospital for the developmentally disabled and so on, but out in California, one of the largest hospitals of that type. And then I was in the Division of Medical Genetics at Children’s Hospital and USC School of Medicine where we dealt with people who were handicapped mentally. So I have also been drawn to those. My first book was on that subject, Multidisciplinary Handbook. Nobody remembers that.
SPEAKER 07 :
One of your big sellers, I bet.
SPEAKER 06 :
Yeah, that was a graduate textbook for medical schools. And that goes back a long, long ways. That was before Dare to Discipline. But you have written a book. as I just said, called When You Live With a Messy. We kind of gave the background to this last time. You were giving practical advice when we ran out of time for what a husband or wife can do to help the messy get more organized. And you said that the answer lies in kind of a similar arena to what I wrote about in Love Must Be Tough, which is not to nag and plead and beg and But you begin to take steps to help the other person to explain it.
SPEAKER 07 :
That’s right. Talking doesn’t do very much. And remember that we’re not really trying to change the messy. I figure that that’s a matter of their own personal choice. In the first place, you can’t change the messy. In the second place, out of… I suppose a certain honoring of their individuality. Every person has to choose their own path. So I just figure you should not bother about trying to change the messy since that’s not going to be too successful anyway. So what you need to do is to change the house and to change your approach to the messy in such a way that if they choose to change… This will be their best opportunity. Now, they may not choose to change, but you want to at least set it up so that if they do wish to make that choice, that’s more possible than if you just let it go along with nagging and complaining.
SPEAKER 06 :
Now, you said yesterday that they should change the house, and you just said that again. Give an example of that.
SPEAKER 07 :
All right, here’s the example. Let’s suppose your husband, when he goes in, and I’m not saying this is just the husband, okay, could be wives, but let’s say it’s the husband. When he goes in to take a shower, always leaves his clothes on the floor. OK, so you have said everything you want to say and it’s not done any good. So the next time he does it, I recommend that you not say anything. Just as you recommend that you stop talking so much and love must be tough and start acting. Don’t say anything. Simply take the clothes and put them under the bed or in the back of the closet or in the garage or wherever. It doesn’t matter. All right, now the house is cared for. You haven’t changed a messy, but the house is okay. Now the impact of his own disorganization is falling on him. He may choose next time to pick up his clothes if he wishes, or he may not. It’s up to him.
SPEAKER 06 :
And that probably will precipitate a form of crisis, which is what I talked about in Love Must Be Tough. That’s right. Change occurs usually only in a crisis.
SPEAKER 07 :
That’s right. It is not easy to change. I don’t know why it’s so hard. Even when you want to change, it’s painful. But certainly when someone else is changing you by their actions, and again, I want to emphasize, it’s only changing the house that we’re interested in. But if that precipitates a change in the person, that’s painful, and that does precipitate a crisis.
SPEAKER 06 :
Change is tough when you decide to do it. We resist every effort of somebody outside of us to change us.
SPEAKER 07 :
That’s right, and that’s why I really do not recommend that we try and change them. We simply are trying to bring order and dignity and beauty to our lives, and that’s reasonable. We’re not asking these people to do something unreasonable like never put a spoon in the sink. We’re just asking that the house be kept in a generally organized fashion. And when they go around and fix their motorcycle in the living room, I mean, that’s way out of line, you know. We’re talking about serious disorganization that makes nobody want to come home.
SPEAKER 06 :
You said last time that you’re a messy. Yes. And you’ve written all these books on the messy, and yet you’re a messy who decided yourself to change it.
SPEAKER 07 :
That’s right.
SPEAKER 06 :
And you’ve worked hard at it.
SPEAKER 07 :
It became so painful to continue living the way I was that I was willing to endure the pain of changing. And it was painful. If it had not been so painful the way I had been living before, I would never have continued. But I could not bear to go back to that way of life. So through these last 14 years, I’m still changing. But my life is markedly different. I do not live as a Massey anymore.
SPEAKER 06 :
Someone said it’s not really the big conflicts that destroy a marriage. Often it’s the very little ones. And when a husband and wife get married, these kinds of irritants immediately begin to cause disagreements between them. Something as dumb as the way you squeeze a toothpaste tube, you know, from the bottom up, grab it in the middle and squeeze and it comes out both ends. Or rather personal things such as whether the toilet seat is left up or not. You know, newlyweds begin fussing and fighting over those things. There really ought to be a way to anticipate some of those conflicts early in marriage or even before marriage and try to hit them off because it’s a shame to have them, you know, destroy each other over those things.
SPEAKER 07 :
Well, you must realize that these people choose people to balance themselves off. And that’s okay as long as you have a lot of things in common. It’s okay to have things that are different where one person is good at it and the other person is not. But if they are too extreme, then you begin having problems.
SPEAKER 06 :
You mentioned yesterday that as difficult as it is for a cleanie to marry a messie, at the opposite ends of the continuum. It is even more unworkable or conflict-producing for two messies to marry. That’s really kind of a surprise to me. Explain why you see it that way.
SPEAKER 07 :
Well, if you have one organized person in the house, at least it keeps things from getting totally out of control. I can tell that you’ve never lived in a house that’s totally out of control. Or you wouldn’t be asking that question.
SPEAKER 06 :
You’re right. That’s true.
SPEAKER 07 :
Because when you live in a house and you can’t find your keys… When you have to wash the dishes in order to cook dinner, the house becomes such an enemy, such a burden, that it’s a blessing to have somebody who puts the skids on along the road so that things don’t get quite so bad.
SPEAKER 06 :
You get two messies living together like that. The light bill and the telephone bill and the doctor bill and all of those things. We’ve mentioned receipts for income taxes, servicing the car on time. All that stuff just begins to accumulate, doesn’t it?
SPEAKER 07 :
That’s right. And pretty soon you’re living in a state of crisis. If it’s not one crisis, it’s another. You come home and the water’s been turned off or whatever. Your checks have bounced or whatever. And these are fine, upstanding people we’re talking about who simply are not able to organize their lives in a way that works.
SPEAKER 06 :
Now, you said in my office earlier that… This problem is growing, that it’s growing by the sheer pace of life increasing and by the pressures that are on people. You’ve got two wage earners frequently instead of one. And you’ve got everybody harried and children having to go to soccer and going to sports. Little League and going to music lessons. And that puts an additional stress on people who already have a weakness at this point. And it just kind of collapses in many cases.
SPEAKER 07 :
Yes, I think that… In some ways, the fact that so many women have gone into the workforce puts a lot of pressure for everybody to do more and offers more opportunity for disorganization for people that are disorganized and for even some people that it wouldn’t show up if they had more time, it begins to show up. However, having said that, let me say that as a messy, if I’d stayed home all day, I my house would have just been messier because I was there. So I went to work.
SPEAKER 06 :
To get away from it.
SPEAKER 07 :
To get away from it and to play a game that I could win. When I stayed home, there was no excuse for the house being in that way and I was terribly discouraged. So I said, I’m losing this game every day. I’m going to go find a game where I can win. And I went out and went to work. It is not practical or reasonable or workable to live using messy principles. And even as a messy, I have to do my very best to bring into my life those principles that do get the job done. It’s hard for me. I wish it were not so, but it is. But a messy cannot simply say, hey, this is who I am. Let me be. I suppose they could if they were an artist and lived in a garret somewhere by themselves. But for most people, that would be letting themselves down and letting the people that they live with down as well. So it’s just forced upon us whether we like it or not.
SPEAKER 06 :
Let’s turn to our audience with the time that’s left. We promised yesterday that we would allow people to come and ask questions of Sandra. And give us your name and where you’re from and your question about messies and gleanies.
SPEAKER 05 :
Hi, I’m Sheila Ellenbos from Billings, Montana. And how do you handle leaving a house clean and then coming home from work and it’s in total chaos and you’re out of energy and you still need to cook supper?
SPEAKER 07 :
Well, I’m surprised to hear what happened to your house while you were at work. I take it there was somebody there. Four children. Four children. Well, why don’t you leave the house in chaos and ask the children to clean it up while you’re at work? That might turn the tables.
SPEAKER 06 :
That’s mean, Sandra. That’s mean advice.
SPEAKER 07 :
Well, I’m sort of serious, and here’s why I’m serious. Kid power is important power for a parent. And if you delegate, as Dr. Dobson mentioned earlier about his staff telling him to do, If you write it down, you might have to type it because handwriting, if it’s just mother’s handwriting, it doesn’t look as official. Type it on some sort of schedule and have them sign off when they have actually done the activities. And if they have to clean it up, they’re going to be a whole lot less quick to mess it up. So I would recommend that you actually get a schedule and expect them to keep the schedule, build in some system of rewards and punishments and stuff. See if that helps.
SPEAKER 06 :
And you’re also teaching them some of those principles that your mother taught you.
SPEAKER 07 :
That’s right. It’s important for a mother to teach her children how to do these things.
SPEAKER 01 :
Next question. Hello. My name’s OJ All, and I’m from Billings, Montana. My question is, what would you say to an organized single who’s not yet married? Should messy characteristics be taken into consideration when choosing your prospective spouse?
SPEAKER 07 :
I would think about it very, very carefully and say to myself, if I can see it while she’s putting on her best face, she’s putting her best foot forward, how bad might it be when we once get married and then everybody settles into their regular routine? It is a serious consideration because the order of the home is an important thing. So If you’re considering marrying a messy or if you’re married to a messy, they’re very lovable people. They need our concern and they need our help. And if they’re open to help, then there can be a lot of changes made on his or her part.
SPEAKER 06 :
At least you should know what you’re getting, right? Yes, I think so. You shouldn’t get a surprise after marriage.
SPEAKER 07 :
I think so. I think that for some people, it’s a very important consideration.
SPEAKER 03 :
I’m Kristen Riddell from Greenville, New Hampshire, the messy spouse. And in an effort to redeem myself, I wanted to share some encouragement. After reading your book, a messy friend and I bonded together, and we take turns Mount Vernonizing with each other. We tackle one of those rooms that you can’t open the door. And then after I go home from doing her house, we’re both energized, and we have the energy to go through and do the regular stuff and be satisfied at the end of the day when you can walk up the stairs without tripping over toys. And I also wanted to ask if maybe you’d be willing to autograph some books. I’ll bring one back for Diane.
SPEAKER 07 :
I would love to. And I will autograph a lot of your books because what you have just said is what Messy’s Anonymous is really all about.
SPEAKER 04 :
Hello, my name is Miles Dalby from Great Falls, Montana, and I come from a military background. I live in the military now, and I’ve talked to a lot of people that have grown up in the military, and their parents oftentimes on Saturday mornings would come and inspect their bedrooms, which is what they did.
SPEAKER 06 :
See if a quarter bounces off the bed, right?
SPEAKER 04 :
Exactly. Exactly. In fact, that’s what they did when I went to college myself. I’m interested in what role does self-discipline and imposed or imposed discipline have on becoming a Messi or even recovering from being a Messi?
SPEAKER 07 :
That’s a very interesting question. And you’re asking a question that deals with what the topic of the book is about, and that is changing someone from the way they are, if they’re a messie, to being an orderly person. Now, my guess is that many people who go into the military go in as disorganized people and come out as organized people. So that obviously, with very strong… Behavior modification principles, if you want to look at it that way, those changes can be made. But I’m not sure that in a marriage is the time to start doing that kind of behavior modification. So that doesn’t exactly apply to the usual relationships between husband and wife. But you’re quite right. Changes can be made. And I made changes in myself by simply working at it because it was so painful to live the other way. And Messy’s Anonymous has self-help groups where people meet, and they struggle to make those kind of changes. So changes are possible, whether they’re imposed by the military or whether they’re imposed by ourselves. But it requires some strong doing, and certainly the military has that strength.
SPEAKER 06 :
It is really good to have the chance to talk to you. We still have people who would like to ask you questions. You know what I’d like to do? I’d like to just record some of these questions and answers. Will you hold still for some more questions, Sandra?
SPEAKER 07 :
Sure. But before we finish, I would like to say one more thing to the person that lives with a Massey. Would this be a good time to do that?
SPEAKER 06 :
It sure would.
SPEAKER 07 :
The person who is a Massey may change, and they may not change. We are simply trying to get the setup so that if they wish to change, they have the best opportunity. We’re trying to bring that wish to them. But it may work and it may not. If it does not work, I want to encourage the person who lives with a Massey to not give up and say, well, my life is just going to have to be a disaster. They need to think of another plan. how to take care of themselves, even under the circumstances. It may be that they will decide to invite people into the house, even like it is. That may precipitate a crisis, or it may just make— I think that’s safe to say. Or it may be that the person will—their messy spouse will welcome them in, and they’ll have a— good social life that way or it may be the person will decide look I’m not going to cut off my social life I’m going to have to find ways to have a social life outside of my home so we’re going to have to join organizations or whatever or it may be the person will say look I can’t stand living in this house like it is so I will take up woodworking out in the garage what I’m saying is Don’t just let it go. Take care of yourself. If the person who is a messy, if you can precipitate change on their part, fine. If you can simply make certain changes in the house that will be, if you can make 20% changes that will bring 80% change using the 20-80 principle, which is so well known. That may be enough for you, but don’t give up. You’ve got to take care of yourself because living in somebody else’s chaos and letting them dictate the kind of life you live is not best for you or for them or for the family.
SPEAKER 06 :
In short, you need to develop a plan. What are we going to do with the circumstances we now have? It doesn’t help to get angry. It doesn’t help to nag. It doesn’t help to gnaw your tongue about it. Let’s sit down as two mature, grown individuals and talk this thing through and see if we can find some compromise. There are compromises necessary in the very best of marriages because you’ve got two imperfect people. And you take that material of imperfection and you try to mold it into a workable whole. And it requires both parties to say, I’d rather you wouldn’t be that way, but I will accept you the way you are. So there is a point at which you have to decide whether or not you can live with it. And if you can’t, you need to seek some outside counseling and workout plans.
SPEAKER 07 :
Exactly. That’s exactly right.
SPEAKER 06 :
I couldn’t have said it better. Thank you, Sandra, for being with us these two days. And we’re going to make you work some more. So just sit tight, will you? I sure will. Appreciate all that you do on behalf of Messy’s and Kleene’s.
SPEAKER 07 :
Well, thank you. And I appreciate your efforts on the part of Messy’s and Kleene’s as well.
SPEAKER 02 :
You know, Sandra Felton’s final encouragement really captures the heart of the issue. Don’t give up on yourself or your marriage, even when you feel that change is impossible. Sometimes the path forward means caring for the home and caring for yourself in creative new ways. You’re listening to Dr. James Dobson’s Family Talk and a classic conversation featuring Dr. Dobson and his guest Sandra Felton about finding practical solutions when you’re living with a messy mate. With the holidays coming up in particular, this is a great conversation to have because it could be yet another source of irritation in an already tense season of Thanksgiving and Christmas gatherings. Now, if you missed any part of this discussion or if you want to share it with someone who’s struggling with household chaos right now, go to drjamesdobson.org forward slash family talk. And once you’re there, you’ll also find information about Sandra Felton’s books, including When You Live with a Messy and The Messy’s Manual. And speaking of practical help. I want to share with you about a resource that has helped countless families strengthen their relationships. It’s our free email series called Conflict in Marriage. Over the course of just a few days, you’ll receive biblical insights and great encouragements from Dr. Dobson about why disagreements happen. how to resolve them fairly and practical steps for turning conflict into connection. So whether you’re newlyweds learning to navigate differences or you’ve been married for decades, this series offers wisdom that can transform how you and your spouse handle those inevitable tensions in life together. Now, if you are a parent and you’ve got children who are getting engaged and are getting into the marriage season, this is a great resource to have on hand for them. And grandparents, what a wonderful wedding gift, right? Thank you. offering hope rooted in God’s word. And your partnership makes that possible for us to continue reaching millions of listeners with trusted wisdom. So if today’s conversation has encouraged you or it’s helped you see a situation in a new light, please consider reaching out today to support the Dr. James Dobson Family Institute. You can make a secure donation at drjamesdobson.org. You can make a donation over the phone when you call 877-732-6825 or write to us at P.O. Box 39000, Colorado Springs, Colorado, the zip code 80949. I’m Roger Marsh, and from all of us here at Family Talk and the JDFI, thanks so much for listening today. Be sure to join us again next time right here when Dr. James Dobson and Sandra Felton will answer more audience questions about everything from parenting messy children to considering whether disorganization might actually be a medical issue. That’s coming up next time right here on the next edition of Dr. James Dobson’s Family Talk, the voice you can still trust for the family you love. This has been a presentation of the Dr. James Dobson Family Institute. So join the conversation at facebook.com slash drjamesdobsonsfamilytalk.
