In this episode, Bob George tackles questions about the perceived conflict between legalism and grace, bringing clarity to a divide that has persisted since the early Christian church. With insightful discussions on the Trinity and the concept of soul sleep, listeners are invited to re-examine traditional beliefs about life after death and the nature of the Holy Spirit. Bob’s guidance emphasizes the importance of understanding divine grace and living a life centered on faith in Jesus Christ.
00:23:25 Guidance on Personal Struggles and Habits
SPEAKER 01 :
Welcome to Classic Christianity Radio with Bob George. Today we are pleased to present a special radio show featuring call-in listeners from Bob’s original people-to-people daily radio program that was on the air for over 30 years, offering real answers for real-life problems as he addresses common questions as well as the tough issues of today, directing callers to the centrality of Christ in you, your only hope of glory. We want to remind our listeners that Bob George Ministries needs your financial support to continue to have Classic Christianity Radio on the air. Please visit BobGeorge.net to find out how you can help support us financially. Let’s now join Bob as he presents practical biblical insights as he helps people experience a life of faith, hope, and love in Jesus Christ.
SPEAKER 04 :
We’re going to go to New York, listening on WJIV. Rosemary, you’re on the air.
SPEAKER 08 :
Hi, Bob. How are you?
SPEAKER 04 :
Fine, Rosemary.
SPEAKER 08 :
How you doing?
SPEAKER 04 :
Fine, thank you.
SPEAKER 08 :
Okay, I have a question. I was reading in Galatians today, chapter 2, and I get very confused every now and then. Paul speaks about the freedom in Christ, and, you know, he didn’t have to go around circumcising the Gentiles and all that. But then when you read, like, around verse 11, he says that he had to oppose Peter because Peter was sitting with the Gentiles, and then when people came from circumcision group he kind of backed away why if we have this freedom in christ and i know that we do why would the 12 kind of back away from that freedom well i don’t think you have the 12 backing away from freedom what you have at rosemary is the fact that you have paul
SPEAKER 04 :
that was sent by God to go to the Gentiles. You had Peter that opened up the salvation to the Gentiles when he saw Cornelius converted, but basically stayed with the Jews, as did James, the Lord’s brother, who was the pastor of the church of Jerusalem there, or in Jerusalem. So all Paul was doing was dealing with the freedom that we have in Christ Jesus. And as that would have progressed to the Gentile world, the Jews would have to start getting an inclination, possibly this freedom is for us as well. But that took a little time, and there was fear among the Church of James, who became the leadership. It would be like the Church of Washington, D.C., that Jerusalem is the place to be, and that’s where the church was. And so it probably became the most prominent church in that part of the world because of that fact, unfortunately. But unfortunately, it took James a while, if ever, to ever really come to the fullness of the grace of God. And so there was teaching from that church that you had to be circumcised. You had to obey the Jewish laws. You had to become a Jew before you really were a true Christian. And it seems to me that we saw Peter that was fearful of that group. And Paul had to… admonish him right to his face like i said when peter certainly wanted to go see that freedom that the gentiles were experiencing and he began to experience that too i said he was slopping down to pork chops with the rest of them and but when the uh but when the uh people from james came why then he went back to his old thing and paul had to admonish him for that so it’s just part of the weakness of the flesh isn’t it yeah obviously because every time i read this and i’ve read this of
SPEAKER 08 :
God knows how many times I’ve read these chapters, and every time I read it, I say, but why would you want to go back under the law and back under all this when Paul’s message of grace that the Lord had given him is such a freedom? Why would they do this? And when I read James, I say to myself, did James ever… Come to that full knowledge.
SPEAKER 04 :
We don’t know. Yeah, really. We do not know. But again, you say why? The same reason that you could have a person who would come to Christ who was brought up in a Catholic church and go back to the rituals.
SPEAKER 05 :
Yeah.
SPEAKER 04 :
Be saved by grace, but still hang on to the rituals. You don’t have to be a Catholic to hang on to rituals. You could do that in Protestant denominations. There are many denominations as ritualistic as the Catholics. But there’s comfort in familiarity.
SPEAKER 08 :
Yeah, I guess that’s true.
SPEAKER 04 :
But the fact of the matter is that that’s why Paul was Paul. And that’s why he never let up on the message of God’s grace. And he ultimately… Peter had to testify that some of the things that Paul teaches are confusing, but they’re from God.
SPEAKER 06 :
Yes.
SPEAKER 04 :
And to acknowledge that they were from God. So we have to realize that just like us, it takes time. And we think because somebody was an apostle, they would have gotten it immediately. That’s not true. They were just human beings like you and me, and it took time for that message to sink in. But again, when you stop to think of a man like Paul who was more steeped probably in the legalistic teaching than even Peter was, and yet when he caught it, he caught it. And I think a lot of him catching it was or being willing for it to be revealed to him is a better way of putting it, is because he went to the Gentiles. And I quite frankly think that when you’ve grown up in these ritualistic churches, you’ve got to leave them for a while in order to get free. Otherwise, you get sucked right back into it again. And I think the reason Paul was as determined as he was and as tenacious as he was is he got away from all of that garbage and was out with the Gentiles that had none of that tradition and therefore was able to see, you know, it’s all Jesus and none of us.
SPEAKER 08 :
You know, it’s so amazing how God used such a man that was so steeped in the law to go to people who didn’t even know the law.
SPEAKER 06 :
Right.
SPEAKER 08 :
It was such an amazing thing how God did that. Yeah. And like you say, to see what God revealed to Paul, and it’s down here on paper, and it’s such a wonderful insight to me. Like I say, sometimes I get so, I say to Peter, I want to yell at Peter, come on, wake up. Yeah. Wake up. Don’t you see this? But it really is a one. All right, fine. Every time I read this particular chapter, I kind of say to myself, but what’s going on?
SPEAKER 04 :
Let me tell you something, Rosemary. You can have people today, and I can’t doubt that they’re born again. I’m sure they are. They’re well-meaning people, and they go over to Israel. And they go over and get around with a bunch of Jews over there who have converted to Christianity. They come back. Jesus’ name is no longer Jesus. It’s Yeshua. Right. And they come back with the shush and the shush and the shush. And they come back, and they want to follow Jewish traditions. They’d rather be a Jew than they would be a Christian.
SPEAKER 05 :
Right.
SPEAKER 04 :
There’s something very appealing about that stuff to the flesh.
SPEAKER 05 :
Right.
SPEAKER 04 :
And so if we’re on this side of the cross with the knowledge that we do have of Christ, are able to get sucked back into that kind of nonsense, what do you think the people back then were? So we have to have compassion on them, but at the same time recognize… that instead of putting their dependency upon Christ, they were going right back into those old traditions, which seemed good stuff. And there are people today who are still holding on to all the Jewish traditions while they’re saying, I’m a born-again believer. And Paul says, in Christ there is no Jew or Gentile or slave or free, but we’ve all been made one. So you’re a child of God. You haven’t lost your Jewishness any more than you’ve lost your Gentileness. But put those things aside and become a child of the living God.
SPEAKER 08 :
I have taken my time. This is the second time I’ve read Classic Christianity. And I have called you before recently about this particular church I’ve been going to. And I had to go back to Classic Christianity. And the other day, I just finished it. And I really took my time reading, underlining, going back, reviewing what was said. And I just found it so great because there were two revelations I received. By reading, one was falling from grace, that in my Bible I wrote down, I don’t even remember how long ago, that falling from grace didn’t mean losing salvation, but I never really understood why I wrote that. And then when reading, I said, oh, that’s right, that’s why. You know, you’re going back to law, you didn’t lose your salvation, you just fell from the grace. That God gave you.
SPEAKER 04 :
Back into law again. Right. That’s what falling from grace is. You started by grace and you fell from it and fell right back into the clams of the law again.
SPEAKER 08 :
And the other thing that was so wonderful for me to understand, because I really didn’t understand it, was when Jesus is speaking about, oh, let me see. I guess it’s in Matthew. It’s on… in your book, page 129, he’s talking about committing adultery and everything, and he’s saying that the phrase people always use is, be perfect because your Father in Heaven is perfect, and I used to say to myself, oh, heavens, I can’t do this. You know, I’m not perfect, and I’ll never be perfect.
SPEAKER 06 :
Right.
SPEAKER 08 :
But as I read and realized that Jesus was saying, if you’re going to follow the law, and if you’re going, I’m telling you, do not commit adultery, and I’m also saying, don’t even look with your eyes, you know, This is the totality of the law, you know, and so if you’re going to follow the law, be perfect in the law. And I was sitting in the laundromat when this revelation came to me, and I was all by myself, and they said, I finally understand that Jesus is not telling us to be perfect as people, but if you’re going to be under the law, follow the law 110%. And it was just a wonderful thing to understand.
SPEAKER 04 :
Well, the thing of it is, it’s like everything else you said, to be perfect. And the response to that is yours. I can’t. He says, now you got it because I’ll make you what you cannot.
SPEAKER 05 :
Right.
SPEAKER 04 :
You cannot achieve it through your own works. I will make you perfect. that he told us that by that one offering he made forever perfect in the sight of God, complete. You’re never, ever going to be made complete under the law.
SPEAKER 08 :
No.
SPEAKER 04 :
It’s only under grace through Christ Jesus.
SPEAKER 08 :
Praise God for that. I’ll say.
SPEAKER 04 :
Well, Rosemary, I hope that helps and you keep listening.
SPEAKER 08 :
It certainly did. I really appreciate it.
SPEAKER 04 :
You call again. Okay.
SPEAKER 08 :
God bless.
SPEAKER 04 :
Bye-bye now.
SPEAKER 08 :
Bye-bye.
SPEAKER 04 :
Let’s go to Toledo, Ohio, listening on WRDT. Donovan, you’re on the air.
SPEAKER 07 :
Hey, thanks for taking my call. I appreciate it.
SPEAKER 04 :
You’re welcome, brother.
SPEAKER 07 :
I’m actually quite a ways away from Toledo, but that’s the closest thing I could think to saying. Well, that’s all right. You’re here on Earth. Right, right. About two miles away from, I guess, your nearest station. So it got here. Two hours driving. Anyway, I was just talking to my brother on the phone when I turned the radio on, sort of just accidentally to your station here. And him and I were discussing the Holy Spirit as part of the Trinity. And I’ve been really confused about that subject for a long time because it seems real clear to me in Scripture that the Father and the Son are one. You can just go to, I guess, the Gospel of John and see that, maybe reference it to Genesis if you’re not convinced. And I see that maybe when Jesus ascended, you know, so that the Helper could come down, the Holy Spirit could come down, that maybe I could see that as… Maybe that was Jesus’ spirit that couldn’t be omnipresent while it was still stuck to a mortal coil. But I don’t see anything that specifically gives it, like, the same authority or spot as the Father and the Son. And I was just wondering if you could clear that up, because I know so many fundamental Christians believe in the Trinity and all three being equal and separate and together and the whole deal. I only see a binary, honestly.
SPEAKER 04 :
Yeah, well, again, it shouldn’t be that way. What did Jesus tell him in the Great Commission? I’ve been given all authority in heaven and earth. Therefore, go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit. No differentiation at all in the three, the three in one. God, the Holy Spirit, remember Peter said about lying, he said to Ananias and Sapphira, you’ve not only lied to God. But you lied to the Holy Spirit. You lied to God. And so the Holy Spirit is co-equal with the Son, co-equal with the Father. When we’re indwelt by this Holy Spirit, we’re indwelt by God. And I don’t complicate it any more than that because I don’t think you can sit down and effectively, in our sphere of influence, number one, God doesn’t have flesh and blood. He’s spirit. How do I know what a spirit looks like? I don’t. I don’t know what a spirit sounds like. And so I’m really, it’s out of my sphere of understanding. So I’m told that here is how God, who God is, God the Father, God the Son, God the Holy Spirit. I’m going to apprehend that even though I possibly can’t comprehend it.
SPEAKER 03 :
Okay, Donovan, I appreciate your call, my brother, and appreciate your curiosity. You call again, okay? Okay.
SPEAKER 01 :
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SPEAKER 04 :
We’re going to go to Bellingham, Washington, listening on Carrie. Jack, you’re on the air.
SPEAKER 02 :
Yeah, hi, Bob.
SPEAKER 04 :
Hi, Jack.
SPEAKER 02 :
Yeah, say, uh… I’ve got a couple conflicting ideas from my studies in the Bible about heaven, and I really think I know what the answer is, but what I’d like to do is just briefly explain both scenarios to you and then get your interpretation. Well, in the first one, I read in 1 Thessalonians, and I read in the book of Revelations, that upon death, when Jesus comes back to establish his kingdom here on earth, that those who have died in Christ And those who are in Christ at that time will rise and meet Jesus in the air. So it makes me think in that scenario that upon death we go into a kind of a deep sleep, maybe kind of like Rip Van Winkle for 20 years. 20 years?
SPEAKER 04 :
What about 2000?
SPEAKER 02 :
Yeah, but he had no concept of time.
SPEAKER 04 :
So in this scenario, it’s a long sleep, long sleep as a long sleep. That’s what’s called soul sleep, Jack. And there are some people who believe in soul sleep. But the Bible tells us that we are absent from the body and present with the Lord. I’ll tell you how you can pull those two things together. All right. You do not go to the obscure to interpret the obvious. You go to the obvious to interpret the obscure. So when Paul is talking in Corinthians, they’re talking about what happens when you die. He’s not talking about end times. He’s talking about what happens to this body of ours when we die. And he tells us you’re absent from the body, present with the Lord, and explains in essence that you’re going to get a glorified body. When a seed is sown, it’s sown as a seed. It doesn’t come back a seed. It comes back an ear of corn. And he explains that in detail. This is what happens to you and to your glorified body. Your body goes into the grave. whether it drowned or goes into the grave by fire or what it is, it’s gone. It’s ashes. We came from the ashes. We return to the ashes. But he’s going to give us a glorified body. Now, in the Thessalonians passage you’re talking about, I believe the mistake that we’ve made is by thinking that’s a one-time event, that what takes place is the dead in Christ will be the first to rise, and then those of us who are remaining will go to meet him in the air. Now, if the rapture occurs in a split second, why would you divide time like that? He just got through telling us that in answer to the question, well, if the rapture is going to occur, what happened to people who died before the rapture? And he’s saying they’re the first to rise. They’re already there. And then those of us who are remaining will go to meet them in the air. We try to make that as an event that takes place at the same time where all the dead in Christ come alive and all those who remain go to meet them in the air. Why would you separate that by time with a split-second deal?
SPEAKER 02 :
And that’s what confuses me because it would look like we go en masse that nobody has arrived here yet. Yeah. With the exception of Elijah and Moses who probably went straight to heaven.
SPEAKER 04 :
So how’d they get their glorified body if you have to wait for the rapture? So you see, to me, it’s like here on earth it says you have a body. But then all of a sudden we’re homeless. We don’t have a house to live in when we die. We got one now, but we don’t then.
SPEAKER 02 :
I don’t believe we go into a deep sleep then.
SPEAKER 04 :
Oh, no question we do not do that. We’re absent from the body and immediately present with the Lord. That’s a firm statement.
SPEAKER 02 :
Well, because one of the passages that did confuse me other than 1 Thessalonians and the book of Revelations is that we remember that when Jesus was crucified with two criminals on the cross, one of them turned to him and said, Remember me when you come onto your throne. And Jesus said, today you will be with me in paradise. So that makes me wonder, is he using a 24-hour clock, or is he using an eternal clock?
SPEAKER 04 :
Well, the man on the cross went to paradise. That’s where Old Testament saints went. There weren’t any New Testament saints yet. And that’s where he went, to paradise. And then Jesus went to paradise, where the rest of the believers who were saved on a credit card went and led captive-captive. Okay. So it wasn’t the case that today you’ll be in paradise. When Jesus left, that’s where he went. He went into paradise and preached to the saints in paradise and led them into heaven.
SPEAKER 02 :
Do you see any contradiction there where, like for Thessalonians, they say that the dead will rise and meet him, making you think that, well, you’re in a deep sleep and will go en masse?
SPEAKER 04 :
No. No, very definitely, Jack, soul sleep is not a doctrine that has ever been ascribed to by any Christians in the past. None of the church fathers, nobody. It really is not a doctrine you can hang on to, to think, because God isn’t limited by time, but we are. Jack, go in biblical interpretation, go with the most obvious passage that you have. The most obvious passage we have is, you are absent from the body and present with the Lord. No time gap. That’s what we have to look forward to is the day that we close our eyes, the day this body stops pumping, we go immediately into the presence of Christ Jesus. Now, then leave that. So then what has happened is the evangelical world has said, well, that we know is true because it says it’s true. But what about this passage in Thessalonians where the dead in Christ? So they say, well, oh, that’s where we get our glorified body. And so the majority of the evangelical world believes that we get a glorified body at the day of the rapture. Well, Again, so though I’m homeless for 2,000 years, just floating around up in the sky someplace, that doesn’t make an ounce of sense. Nor does it make an ounce of sense that if the dead in Christ will be the first to rise, if that is taking place identically at the same place in the same time that it says, then we who remain and are alive. Why would you say that if it was instantaneous? So they’re answering the question, what has happened to those who died prior to this rapture? And he said, they’re the first to rise. They’re already there. Then those of us that are here and remain, we will go meet them in the air. And to me, that makes all the sense in the world. It’s just the case of what do you mean by the dead in Christ will be the first to rise? Well, it tells you if you’re absent from the body present with the Lord, I assume that has to be a resurrection, a rising to meet the Lord.
SPEAKER 02 :
Okay, well, in those two passages, they mention rising from your grave. Well, everybody doesn’t have a grave. That’s right. I’m a World War II merchant marine veteran, and and saw ships torpedoed in North Atlantic.
SPEAKER 04 :
Absolutely. They’re in an ocean.
SPEAKER 02 :
One time I saw a Liberty ship loaded with ammo. take a torpedo. It blew in 10,000 pieces. Man aboard. Well, they have no graves are scattered all over the North.
SPEAKER 04 :
Absolutely. Absolutely. So I say, and it wouldn’t make any difference if they had one, it’s going to be our worm food. So your body there’s, and also tells us flesh and blood will never inherit the kingdom of God. That means that anything that we got from mom and dad will never inherit the kingdom of God. Your flesh and blood is going to go into the ground. It’s either going to be blown up, as you said. It can go into the ground and decay. It can be burnt up in a fire. But it’s going to go back to dust. We came from the dust. We return to the dust.
SPEAKER 02 :
Well, that makes sense. Like the victims of 9-11, at the point of impact, when that jet hit there, those two jets hit, those people were vaporized.
SPEAKER 04 :
Absolutely. And that body is gone. But if they were in Christ, immediately they have a glorified body.
SPEAKER 02 :
Okay, well, that helps a lot, Bob.
SPEAKER 04 :
Okay, Jack.
SPEAKER 02 :
Yeah, and I’ll pursue my education. Okay, pal. Okay.
SPEAKER 04 :
Bye-bye now. Las Vegas, Nevada, listening on KKVV. Robin, you’re on the air.
SPEAKER 09 :
Hi, Bob. George.
SPEAKER 04 :
Hello, Robin. Hi.
SPEAKER 09 :
Anyway, I was calling because I have a friend who’s got a lot of medical problems, and she’s got rheumatoid arthritis, and she smokes because she says, that that helps her deal with the pain. And yet my other friend, Pat, has refused to try to take the cigarettes away from her, and I just don’t know what to say to him anymore.
SPEAKER 04 :
Well, Robin, again, I don’t think there’s much that you can say from them. First place, again, I’ve always laughingly said that no one will ever go to hell because they smoke. They may smell like they’ve been there, but they’re not going to go to hell because of smoking. But the issue is, is the person a child of God? Now, if a person is a child of God, Robin, they’re indwelt by truth. Christ Jesus is full of grace and full of truth. So you could not be indwelt by Jesus and not be indwelt by his grace and to be indwelt by his truth. Now, if Christ is living in you and his truth lives in you, how can you rebel against truth? You can say, I can’t do it, just like we were talking to Rosemary. But we’re not going to say there’s nothing wrong with it, nor are we going to say that smoking, if smoking satisfies, you only need one. So you’d only buy one cigarette and that’d be it. If it’s satisfied, it doesn’t satisfy, nor does it come, nor is there anything in a cigarette smoke that will take away the pain of arthritis or any other kind of disease. So that’s all imaginary stuff. But the issue is, is she in Christ Jesus? Or is he? I don’t know. Is it a he or a she?
SPEAKER 09 :
A she. I don’t think she is. They were both Catholic.
SPEAKER 04 :
Yeah. So what your main thing is, is to get them and to keep talking about the love of Christ Jesus and get them into Christ. Now, once you’re into Christ, then the Holy Spirit can deal with these habits of ours. But it wouldn’t do an ounce of good to stop that habit and still have them go to hell because of their rejection of Jesus.
SPEAKER 05 :
Right.
SPEAKER 04 :
So I would just continue to love them, and I’d keep talking to them, have a Bible study with them if you could. They’re certainly not adamant toward Jesus, so say, let’s just have a Bible study and talk about Jesus. And if you can, get a Bible study together with some people and let them begin to learn who Christ Jesus is. When they do that, and if they truly are then become indwelt by the Spirit of God, Then in due time, they’re going to read that they are indwelt by Christ. And as a result of that, their body is the temple of the Holy Spirit of God. Right now, they think church is the building they go into on Sunday. But when you’re in Christ, you’re going to learn, no, that’s not what the church is. The church is your body. And so would you walk into a church building smoking cigarettes? The answer is no. Then why would you light up in your own body when you indeed are the temple of the Holy Spirit of God? And that building over there is merely a building.
SPEAKER 09 :
Right.
SPEAKER 04 :
So just put priorities on that, Robin, and talk about Christ first.
SPEAKER 09 :
Okay.
SPEAKER 04 :
Okay?
SPEAKER 09 :
Alrighty.
SPEAKER 04 :
Alrighty. Good to talk to you. Bye.
SPEAKER 01 :
Bye-bye. Thank you so much for tuning in to Classic Christianity with Bob George. We hope you’ve enjoyed today’s program. We truly hope that today’s message has inspired you to walk a life of faith in the Lord. Find more information online at bobgeorge.net. There you’ll also find available CDs, DVDs and Bible studies available for purchase. It’s through your help that we are able to spread the good word of Jesus Christ. Until next time, walk in faith, be good to one another and praise the Lord. Amen.
