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Join Steve Gregg on The Narrow Path as we dive into a range of theological topics. In today’s episode, we explore the fulfilling prophecy of Deuteronomy 28, assess the traditional practices of tithing and weekly services, and discuss their relevance to modern Christianity. Discover the complexities behind Jesus’ birth date and what winter solstice might signify in religious context.
SPEAKER 1 :
Thank you.
SPEAKER 04 :
Good afternoon, and welcome to The Narrow Path radio broadcast. My name is Steve Gregg, and we’re live for an hour each weekday afternoon, taking your calls. If you have questions you want to raise about the Bible or the Christian faith, or a difference of opinion you want to present from the views expressed by the host on any topic, feel free to give me a call. I’m looking at an unusual thing right now, and that’s an open switchboard. That is to say, completely open. I don’t know if it’s because everybody’s out making final preparations for Christmas or not, but it is coming up in a few days. By the way, we’ll be live on Christmas Eve, but I think I heard we’re going to be not live on Christmas Day. So that’s what the next three days we’re live, and we look to you to call up with your questions to give us fodder for the program, give us topics to discuss. to keep people informed and to educate. So if you have a question about the Bible or the Christian faith, this is a wonderful time to call because we have no one in your way. Go ahead and call 844-484-5737. That’s 844-484-5737. I have questions that prisoners have written in. We have a lot of prisoners who listen to the program and write to us, and sometimes they send us questions. Sometimes we’re able to write back. Sometimes there’s just too many. Oh, you know what? I just noticed all the lines are popular. I think there was a problem at the studio. They didn’t have the right button push. That happens on Mondays sometimes. I think what happens at the studio, there must be another program on that uses the same equipment, and they use a different studio. And so on Monday, this is the third time now. I’ve come on the air, and there was no one visible on the air, and yet there were people filling the lines. So my mistake, well, it’s not really my mistake. It’s a problem in the studio, but I was certainly mistaken in thinking our lines were open. Again, now you can’t call, but if you call in a few minutes, 844-484-5737, you may, in fact, find a line has opened, but that is not the case at this moment. So let’s go to the phones and talk to Tim from Ontario. California. Hi, Tim. Good to hear from you.
SPEAKER 11 :
Hey, Steve. Good to be heard. Thanks for taking my call. My question is on Deuteronomy 28. We read about the blessings for obedience and the curses for disobedience to the nation of Israel. And my question is, do those curses still apply for today or was this already fulfilled?
SPEAKER 04 :
Well, they were fulfilled, but it seems to me they were fulfilled more than once. The prophecy says that if Israel violates God’s covenant, that he’ll bring all kinds of curses upon them. And he does say about that that he said these in verse 46 says these curses shall be upon you. for a sign and a wonder, and on your descendants forever. So, I mean, whenever this happened, it says it’s forever. However, anything that God says is forever when it comes to blessings or curses on nations is conditional. That is to say, if he says, I’m going to build you up forever, but if they rebel, then they don’t meet the conditions, and that’s not true. It doesn’t continue forever. Likewise here, where it says these curses will remain on you forever. It means as long as you remain in rebellion, people can come back to God and come out from under such curses. In fact, Paul says that we are not under the curse of the law. We Christians, because Christ took the curse of the law on himself when he was crucified. But this does indicate that there’s a longstanding curse on any of the Israelites who remain in rebellion against God. And it goes on and on and on, and it actually says in verse 63, It shall be that just as the Lord rejoiced over you to do you good and multiply you, so the Lord will rejoice over you to destroy you and bring you to nothing, and you shall be plucked off from the land which you go to possess. Now, this actually happened twice historically, and both for the same reason. That is because of their disobedience. The first time was in 586 B.C., when God allowed the Babylonians to disperse the Jews and destroy the city of Jerusalem, destroy the temple completely, and they went into Babylon for 70 years. But the repentant remnant were allowed to come back and rebuild. when Cyrus, king of Persia, conquered Babylon and gave the Jews and other nations that had been conquered by Babylon permission to go back to their lands. And a small portion of the Jews in captivity did. They rebuilt the nation, and that nation stood even at the time of Christ. And the temple that they built at that time also was standing at the time of Christ, but Jesus predicted it was going to be destroyed again. as it was in A.D.
SPEAKER 1 :
70.
SPEAKER 04 :
And all these curses, the descriptions that he gives of the horrible things that would happen to them if they’re in disobedience, those things happened back in 586 B.C. when they were destroyed by the Babylonians. But they happened again in A.D.
SPEAKER 1 :
70.
SPEAKER 04 :
Now, one could argue, therefore, that God… He meant what he was talking about, and the first time he took them out of the land, it was like a warning shot fired across the bow. If you don’t repent, this is showing I mean business. But he gave them another chance when he brought them back from Babylon. But then, of course, when they crucified Christ and persecuted the church, God simply abandoned them. that temple system completely and permanently and allow the Romans to come and destroy it. And it’s gone. It’s gone, as far as we know, for good. The Bible does not predict otherwise. And even if the Jews were to build the temple again, it’s obsolete. So, in other words, there’s no reason for there to be another temple. If the Jews come back and restore their old religion, which was the animal sacrifices in the temple, and the Levitical priests they are doing so strictly out of rebellion against Christ because Christ brought an end to those systems. And Christ has permanently replaced them for eternity. So, you know, if the Jews do any of those things, it’s not really God doing it. That’s them acting in rebellion against God. But the Bible doesn’t say for sure that they will. Some people think the Bible predicts there will be a third temple. If so, then shame on them for doing it. But but I don’t see any predictions in the Bible of the third temple at all. But anyway, so these curses would seemingly remain intact unless they turn to Christ, really. So they would still be applied to today. Well, right, right. But let me just clarify something. When God says they’ll be cursed and they’ll suffer all these things, I don’t know that… I don’t know that we’re to understand that God is actively persecuting them or seeking to crush them or hates them or anything like that. I think he grieves over them. And like Paul, after they rejected Christ, Paul still said he had great sorrow in his heart for them and his great desire was for them to be saved. And he even said, I could wish myself a curse from Christ if it would lead to their salvation. So I think God has the same heart toward them that Paul expresses. God wants all Israel to be saved. He loves them, but he can’t bless them. He can’t do anything in favor of them while they’re in rebellion against him. And the only way to cease to be in rebellion against him is to turn to Christ and become followers of Christ. Everything else is rebellion. You know, Paul said in 1 Corinthians 16, I think it’s verse 22, he said, If anyone does not love our Lord Jesus Christ, let him be accursed. You know, now that’s not just Jews, it’s Jews and Gentiles, but it certainly would apply to most Jews as well as most Gentiles. They don’t love the Lord Jesus Christ. And therefore, whatever curse comes upon those who aren’t followers of Christ rests upon them, too, and rests upon them until such a time as they may turn to Christ.
SPEAKER 11 :
Okay, well, that gives me some perspective, and I appreciate your answer. I’ll let you get your next caller. Thanks, Steve. All right.
SPEAKER 04 :
All right. God bless you, Tim. Good talking to you.
SPEAKER 11 :
Bye-bye.
SPEAKER 04 :
Okay, bye now. Fred from Alameda, California. Welcome to The Narrow Path.
SPEAKER 06 :
Yes. Is a pastor of a church, for example, exempt from having to attend a weekly service and paying tithe? I wondered about that.
SPEAKER 04 :
Well, no place in the Bible places an obligation on anybody to pay a tithe or to attend weekly services. That was something that was upon Israel. Israel had to go to the synagogue on Sabbaths, that’s Saturday, and worship there on a weekly basis. They also had to bring a tithe to the temple once a year, which was a tenth of all their produce for that year. And they brought it to the temple to be the food for the Levites until the next year. Now, these were part of the Jewish system. Neither of these obligations are mentioned in the New Testament. There’s no Sabbath keeping commanded in the New Testament. There’s no Sunday keeping commanded in the New Testament. There’s no weekly church attendance mentioned anywhere in the New Testament, nor tithing. So these are kind of traditions that churches have adopted, which are kind of modifications or simply adaptations of Jewish practices. Now, there’s nothing wrong with them. And frankly, as far as giving tithes is concerned, this simply refers to giving a tenth of your earned wages to support the Levites in the Old Testament. Now, we don’t have the Levites anymore, but there are still things that we should support, but not with 10% necessarily. Frankly, for most of us, it could be a lot more than that. I believe that most of us should live as modestly as we can, and the surplus of what comes in should be given to the things of the kingdom of God. That’s simply good stewardship. So the 10% is a cop-out. I think people say, well, we need to give 10%. Well, I’m not sure where that comes from. I mean, it doesn’t come from the New Testament. It comes from the Old Testament, but it’s not a Christian duty. Christian duty is that everything we own belongs to God, and he’s going to have us give account to him For all of it, you know, did we use it as he wanted it to be used? That’s what we’re going to have to answer when we see him. And he’s not going to ask, did we give 10% or not, because that’s simply an obsolete rule that belonged to a different religion, which was Judaism, and we’re not in Judaism. Likewise, God’s never going to ask, did you go to church every Sunday? I realize that maybe probably the Catholic tradition has ingrained that idea because I think their view is that you pretty much have to take the Mass every week at least, and the only place you can get that is from a priest at the church. So I think going to Mass on Sunday, every Sunday, is kind of a hard thing to duck out of without incurring condemnation. But The New Testament does not indicate that we have an obligation to attend any particular kind of meeting on a weekly basis. The early Christians met daily, which is much more conducive, I think, to spiritual community and spiritual growth and spiritual worship and mutual support. I’m not saying there’s an obligation to do that either. We’re never told how often we should meet. The Bible does say in Hebrews 10 that we should not forsake. the assembling of ourselves, but it does not indicate how often the assemblies took place. And again, we know that at certain times during the first century, the Christians met every day, if they could. But there’s no obligation to. It reminds me, frankly, in times of real revival, people want to be in meetings with other Christians. First, they want to have contact with other people who feel as they do about God, because outside in the world they don’t find people like that as often. So they long to be in the fellowship of like-minded people. They love to worship God together. They love to fellowship with each other. And they love to hear the Word of God presented. Now, I will say this. I would say it would be much more urgent now, to go to church on a frequent basis if we didn’t have Bibles. Because in the synagogue, for example, the only place people could hear the word of God was, you know, from basically the rabbis or the priests, you know, presenting it. They didn’t have Bibles at home. Many of them probably couldn’t even read if they did. And, you know, and then until the 16th century, nobody had Bibles at home. There were no printing presses to print them. So the Bible existed, but only the priests and the church leaders probably had access to copies, only because you couldn’t print one out and go buy one. So, you know, going to church and hearing the Word of God was absolutely essential. Today, I’m still totally recommended. You know, I think that the more people can be in good fellowship, the better. And during the revival that I… was in my teens, the Jesus Revolution, we had the opportunity to go to church every night. Now, we had our own Bibles we read all the time when we weren’t at church, too. But then we’d go to church every night and listen to someone expound on the Bible. And the church I went to, which was Calvary Chapel in Costa Mesa in the early 70s, they had Bible studies every night of the week. And we went, not because there was some obligation. but because that’s what spiritually minded people hunger for. Now, it’s not like it’s practical or convenient for everybody in their circumstances to attend church meeting more than once a week or even sometimes even once a week. But it’s what people desire. If they are spiritually minded, they’re drawn like a magnet to each other. And so I would say this, that going to church on a regular basis is more of a barometer or an indicator of one’s spiritual tastes than Either that or it’s an indicator of the value of the church that they attend. It doesn’t really attract them. It’s not providing anything spiritual for them, so they don’t have an interest in it. But even people who don’t go to church on a regular basis or a regular church or can’t find a good church, they’re always going to be looking for opportunities to be with and to fellowship with and to mutually encourage others of like mind. And for most people, church on Sunday is going to be the the opportunity that’s most readily available. But there are things other than that which could be taking its place. Assembling yourself with others should not be avoided, but that can happen in other situations, home Bible studies, you know, ad hoc prayer groups or Bible study groups or whatever. But, of course, the ideal is that when all the people of God come together, In one place, they can corporately, you know, minister to each other and worship God, and that’s very desirable. It’s not always easy to find these days. Thank you for your call. Randall in Tacoma, Washington, welcome to The Narrow Path.
SPEAKER 07 :
Hey, thanks, Steve, for taking my call. I was just curious, do we actually know when Jesus was born? And if he wasn’t born on December 25th, why did we pick that date to celebrate his birthday?
SPEAKER 04 :
Well, we didn’t pick it. It’s not very likely that Jesus was born on December 25th, though nobody knows what day he really was born. His birthday was not recorded yet. And that being so, it must not have been essential for us to know. You know, as far as we know, the disciples never had an annual celebration of the birth of Jesus. As far as the resurrection of Jesus, like we celebrate on Easter, they celebrate that every Sunday and probably every day of the week in some sense. But as far as the birth of Jesus, setting aside as a calendar date, that apparently was not done until maybe the fourth century or so. Now, why was December 25th chosen? Well, as I understand it, it was already kind of a famous holiday in the pagan world. It’s the winter solstice time. And as I understand it, winter solstice is the shortest night of the, what is it, the longest night of the year. It’s the longest night and shortest day of the year. And after that, each day gets a little longer and the night gets longer a little shorter, and I think it’s like the beginning of a new dawning for the year, in a sense. And I think that even pagans had, because they worshipped the sun, they had celebrations of the winter solstice, but when Rome became Christianized, paganism was thrown out, pretty much, and Christians began to colonize the day’s that had been pagan holidays and repurpose them for Christian purposes. And I believe that if I’m not mistaken, because you do hear various reports, but I think this is correct. That is why they chose December 25th, which was already a celebration in Rome. And they decided now that Rome is Christian, it’s going to be the time we celebrate the birth of Jesus.
SPEAKER 07 :
Okay. Thank you.
SPEAKER 04 :
All right. Thank you for your call. Okay. Colton in Sacramento, California. Welcome to The Narrow Path.
SPEAKER 09 :
Hey, how’s it going?
SPEAKER 04 :
Good.
SPEAKER 09 :
Yeah, it’s kind of a silly question. I’m kind of wondering about it myself, but I’ve been reading sort of the part where Jesus is crucified and everything, and I’m wondering… As a Christian, how did Jews exist after Jesus’ coming? Because if the Christianity was started by the Witness Jews and we’re all here because we believe Jesus is the Son of God, then isn’t today our – technically what I’m saying is, like, how can we coexist or how can there be existence of Jews if Jesus was the Son of God? And I don’t really know what question I’m asking, really, too. I’m kind of just perplexed by it.
SPEAKER 04 :
Okay. Well, Jesus is the Son of God, but that does not prevent there being people who have different religious views. That is, not everyone, obviously, I mean, go ask any number of people on the street, a certain percentage of them will not believe that Jesus is the Son of God. And therefore, they believed something else. Now, the Jews were the people in the context of whom the Son of God came. Jesus came to the Jews. His disciples were Jews. He lived his whole life as a Jew and died as a Jew. But he rose as a part of a new creation, neither Jew nor Gentile. So that Paul says, In 2 Corinthians 5, he says, henceforth we know no one after the flesh, though we once knew Christ after the flesh. He says, henceforth we don’t know him that way anymore. So after the flesh, we mean his race. We knew him as a Jew, but from now on we don’t think of him that way, and we don’t think of anyone that way. We don’t think of anyone in racial terms anymore, Paul said. Now, that was a mindset that not every Jew accepted, because Jesus lived and died in Israel, in Jerusalem. the capital of the Jewish state and religion, and only a minority of the Jews really embraced him. Although I will say many thousands of Jews did, and that was the beginning of what we today call the church. But though the church existed in Jerusalem, the Jews there who believed in Christ were greatly outnumbered by the Jews who did not. And so the Jews just continued in the same religion they were in before Jesus came. They just behaved as if he hadn’t come because they didn’t recognize him as anything special. Just like Buddhists in Tibet continued to be Buddhists and Hindus in India continued to be Hindus, and pagans in the jungles, animists and so forth, continue that. Just because Jesus came and lived and died and was, in fact, the Son of God and the only source of salvation, did not prevent people of other religions to continue in those religions. Now, the Jews in particular… could only continue in their historic religion for another 40 years because the temple was destroyed in A.D.
SPEAKER 1 :
70.
SPEAKER 04 :
As Jesus actually predicted it would be in that generation. He said it would be a consequence of their rejection of him. And, of course, it led to the fact that their religion that Moses had given them or that God had given through Moses could no longer be practiced. Because their religion requires a temple, requires sacrifices. The observance of holy days that take place at the temple in the context of sacrifices and so forth. So the temple was the whole linchpin of their religion. And when it was destroyed by the Romans, their religion was destroyed. It was after that that certain Jewish rabbis got together. Traditionally, it was at a town called Jamnia. where they decided to reformulate their religion so that it could exist without the temple. Of course, what they came up with was man-made religion, because God didn’t ever give them a religion without the temple. So they came up with what today should be called Talmudism or Rabbinism, Rabbinism based on the word rabbi, what the rabbis came up with, which is now written in the Talmud, and so it’s now called Talmudism. Now, Orthodox Jews today follow the Talmud. They don’t have a temple, so they don’t follow the Jewish religion that existed in the time of Christ and in the time of Moses and so forth. Ever since the temple was destroyed almost 2,000 years ago, there has been no Judaism that’s described in the Bible. The Judaism ever since time is a man-made religion invented by the rabbis. They retained, of course, what they could from their old Jewish religion, but they also added lots and lots and lots of human traditions that God never gave them. And so today, Orthodox Judaism is not identified with the Judaism of the time before Christ or in the time of Christ. So there really isn’t a Jewish religion as described in Scripture today. But there is a Jewish religion that’s as man-made as is Islam or Hinduism or Buddhism. I mean, there’s lots of man-made religions. And Judaism today is simply one of them. So there are Jews, and some of them are Orthodox Jews. Now, I will say this. Lots of Jews today are secular because being Jewish can be simply a matter of ancestry. Lots of people who have ancestors… you know, from Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, don’t identify themselves with the religion of Judaism. And they might as well not, since the current religion of Judaism isn’t the religion of their ancestors, that is, of their biblical ancestors. So it’s a very common thing for modern Jews to hold other views. Lots of them are Buddhists. Many of them are atheists, and some of them are even Christians to this day. And then some are Orthodox Jews or some other branch of Judaism. There’s also what’s called conservative Judaism and reformed Judaism. Those are somewhat less conservative even than Orthodox Judaism. But, you know, people can be identified as Jews by their religious beliefs, even if they’re not descended from Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. I’m not, but I could become a Jew by religion if I wished. I’d have to convert from my Christian faith to theirs, which I would never do. But a Gentile, like myself, could become a Jew by embracing a religion. Because sometimes Jew simply refers to one who embraces the Jewish religion. But on the other hand… Being a Jew could be a matter of ancestry or ethnicity. Having Jewish ancestors going back to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, that would be another way of being called Jewish. And many who are of that type aren’t religious at all. So, you know, Judaism is kind of a nebulous category these days. I need to take a break. We have another half hour coming, so don’t go away. You’re listening to The Narrow Path. Our website is thenarrowpath.com. And I’ll be back in 30 seconds, so stay tuned.
SPEAKER 05 :
Everyone is welcome to call the Narrow Path and discuss areas of disagreement with the host, but if you do so, please state your disagreement succinctly at the beginning of your call and be prepared to present your scriptural arguments when asked by the host. Don’t be disappointed if you don’t have the last word or if your call is cut shorter than you prefer. Our desire is to get as many callers on the air during the short program, so please be considerate to others.
SPEAKER 04 :
Welcome back to the Narrow Path radio broadcast. My name is Steve Gregg and we’re live for another half hour today. While we’re taking your calls, our lines are again full. But if you want to call with a question you have from the Bible or about the Christian faith or a disagreement with those, you can still possibly get in before the show is over. Right now you can’t call because the lines are full, but after we talk to some callers, lines will open up. You might be able to get through. The number to call is 844-484-5737. Our next caller is John from Dallas, Texas. Hi, John. Welcome to The Narrow Path.
SPEAKER 03 :
Hi, Steve. Thanks. My question today is why did Paul feel it was necessary to circumcise Timothy?
SPEAKER 04 :
Yeah, well, that’s interesting because it is in contrast to what he did with Titus. Now, Titus and Timothy we think of as very similar in their roles. Both of them traveled with Paul. Both of them kind of were extensions of his apostolic ministry. But with reference to circumcision, Paul took exact opposite approaches with these two men. And that’s because Timothy was a Jew and Titus was a Gentile. Now, it says in Galatians chapter 2, that when Titus accompanied Paul and Barnabas to Jerusalem, there were Jewish Christians there, Judaizers, who tried to pressure Paul to have Titus get circumcised. And that’s because there was, at that point, a crisis in the attempt to define the gospel. In that time, many people, Christians, felt that in order to be a Christian, you have to first be a Jew. They had no problem with Gentiles becoming Christians as long as they became Jews first, because Jews had always accepted Gentiles as Jewish converts or proselytes. But until Paul’s ministry came along, it was really not the case that they had Gentile converts first. joining the church, and so it was just assumed, since all the Christians were pretty much Jewish, and they were all circumcised, that Christ was for circumcised Jews. He was the Jewish Messiah, after all. Now, when Gentiles, who were not circumcised as infants, as all Jews were, began to be converted, and they were accepted in the church without being circumcised, This raised the question, well, is Christianity something different than Judaism, or is it simply the next stage of Judaism? Now, the Judaizers were the ones who were Christian believers, but they felt like it was simply the latest development in Judaism and did not exclude the need for people to become Jewish in order to follow the Jewish Messiah. Paul and Barnabas had a very different view. They believed that Christianity was a new creation concept, something altogether new, and that Gentiles had no need to become Jewish, to become followers of Christ. Now, Titus was a test case. When Titus came to Jerusalem, some of the Judaizers pressured Paul to have him get circumcised, and Paul said, I wouldn’t yield to them for a moment. He said, not for one hour. I didn’t want to compromise the gospel. In other words, if Paul had allowed them circumcision, And if Titus had been circumcised, this would be confirming what Paul considered to be a false gospel, namely that Christianity is just a branch of Judaism and that Gentiles have to become part of Judaism to become part of Christianity. And that was something that Paul said is a corruption of the gospels. So he would not allow Titus or any of his Gentile converts to be circumcised. On the other hand, Timothy was Jewish, but was uncircumcised. The reason he was uncircumcised is only his mother was Jewish. His father was a Gentile, and apparently at his birth, his mother’s desire to be circumcised was overridden by the father’s choice, who was a Gentile, not to have him be. Now, when Timothy left home and began to travel with Paul’s team, Paul had him get circumcised. Because everyone knew that his mother was Jewish, which made him technically obliged to be a Jew. But they knew his father was a Gentile, which meant that people would say, well, did you get circumcised or not? Now, it would have been okay if Timothy had just remained uncircumcised and said, no, I’m not circumcised. I’m a Christian. I don’t identify as a Jew, but as a follower of Christ. But it was a very controversial thing. This was only Paul’s second missionary journey. And everywhere he went, Christianity was in conflict with Jews. And Paul didn’t want to escalate those conflicts unnecessarily. You know, if Timothy had been a Gentile, Paul would have stood his ground and said, no way is this guy going to be made to become Jewish. But he was Jewish. And for him to be a Jew who was not circumcised would raise, I think, unnecessary controversies. It wasn’t necessary for Timothy to be circumcised to be saved. But an uncircumcised Jewish believer would make Paul’s reputation confusing. The reason I say that is because later in his life, Paul came to Jerusalem and met with James who headed up the Jerusalem church. And James told him, you know, there’s a lot of Jews here who are zealous for the law and they have heard about you that you’re telling Jews not to circumcise their children. Now, Paul wasn’t telling Jews not to circumcise their children. He’s saying that Gentiles don’t have to become Jews. and therefore don’t have become circumcised, but he was not opposed to Jews being circumcised. I mean, it wasn’t really his concern because he was an apostle to the Gentiles, and he wasn’t trying to rock the boat. But see, Paul was already kind of persona non grata among the Jewish believers in Jerusalem because they’d heard that he’s telling Jewish people not to circumcise their kids. Now, in order to avoid that kind of accusation from sticking, Paul went ahead and had Timothy be circumcised. It wasn’t a spiritual necessity. It was more of a diplomatic necessity, I think, in his case. Whereas Paul wouldn’t even, even for diplomatic reasons, he wouldn’t compromise the gospel by having Gentiles get circumcised because of what that would be communicating. It would be communicating that you’re not really a true Christian until you’re a Jew. And that was definitely not, Paul saw that as a perversion of the gospels. But he didn’t think that for a Jew to be circumcised was a perversion of anything. So he went ahead to avoid unnecessary conflict and had Timothy circumcised. That’s what I believe.
SPEAKER 12 :
Thank you. Do you think also maybe it had to do with for Timothy to be able to witness to other Jews to try to convert them? No doubt.
SPEAKER 04 :
No doubt. Yeah. Yeah. Because Paul’s ministry was in the synagogue a great deal. And, you know, Timothy, as a circumcised Jew, could go right in there with him, as could Barnabas. Now, some of the other Gentile Christians who weren’t circumcised, I’m not sure what their status would be or how welcome they would be or how they’d be looked upon in the synagogues where Paul did a lot of his preaching, but But to have every Jew on his team compliant with the circumcision requirement for Jews was simply, I think, more convenient and more, what should we say, diplomatic than otherwise.
SPEAKER 03 :
Thanks, Dave. God bless.
SPEAKER 04 :
Okay, John, thanks for your call. Good talking to you. All right, let’s talk to Brian from Loomis, California. Brian, welcome.
SPEAKER 07 :
Hi, how are you?
SPEAKER 10 :
Good. Hey, so this may be an odd question, but I’m kind of becoming convinced that Satan was created for God’s purposes rather than a fallen angel, which would answer some of my questions I’ve had since I’ve been a Christian, and I’m not I’m not holding tight to that, but I’m kind of leaning in that direction. But that leads me to, and a lot of it has to do with I’ve listened to your three views of hell, and it answered a lot of possible questions for me. But what about the third of the angels? Is there anything that would lead us to believe that they weren’t good angels to begin with and that they were just maybe created – to serve Satan and God’s purposes. Because to me it makes no sense that somebody who lives with God and has tasted that to rebel. That just doesn’t make sense to me.
SPEAKER 04 :
I agree. I agree it doesn’t make sense. Although Adam and Eve had walked with God before they fell. That’s true. They didn’t live in the presence of God in quite the same way. probably the same intimacy that the angels did for as long. But strangely, though I’m sure they could find no fault in God, they were nonetheless corruptible. And as far as whether Satan was made as he is or was a fallen angel, that is certainly an open question. The Bible does not clearly answer it, although most Christians assume that it does. It actually doesn’t. And if he was made to be a tester… which is all he is ever seen to be in the Bible. He’s never seen as an angel in the Bible. He’s always seen as a tester. He tests Adam and Eve. He tests Israel. He tests David. He tests Jesus. He tests us. It seems to be what his role is. If he was made to be that, then he was made to see how many good beings, like angels and men, could be corrupted. and found that every man except Jesus could be corrupted. Not all the angels were, but apparently some of them were. We read in the epistle of Jude in verse 6, the angels who did not keep their proper domain but left their own habitation. He is reserved in everlasting chains under darkness for the judgment of the great day. So we know that there’s angels that left their proper state. Peter mentions them also, of course, in 2 Peter 2. verse 4, by which we have, not there, 1 Peter chapter 2, yeah, verse 4, if God did not spare the angels who sinned, but cast them down to hell and delivered them into chains of darkness reserved for judgment, then he knows how to punish the wicked. Now, so the Bible says there are angels that sinned who left their first estate. It does not mention Satan’s role in it, but my assumption is is that Satan probably played a role in the corruption of angels just as he did in the corruption of humans, since that’s his function as a tester. Now, as far as a third of the angels falling, this is a tradition that’s not found anywhere in Scripture. It’s continually repeated by preachers and so forth, and I guess people assume it’s taught in the Bible. But the closest thing you have, in fact, the only thing you have that might point that direction is Revelation 12.4. which in very symbolic language describes a red dragon with seven heads and ten horns. And Revelation 12.4 says, Right. Now, so his tail drew a third of the stars. of heaven and through them to the earth. Some people assume those stars represent angels. So that would be where the idea of a third of the angels falling are. Now, I would say this, that the idea of stars being thrown to the earth is an image that comes from Daniel chapter 8 and verse 10. In that place, Antiochus Epiphanes is said to cast some of the hosts of heaven, the stars, to the ground and trample upon them. which clearly is not a reference to angels. It’s a reference to godly Jews that Antiochus Epiphanes persecuted and killed. And that’s what it meant to cast them to the ground and trample on them. Later in Daniel… Chapter 1, I think it’s verse 2, it says that those who turn many to righteousness, that’s verse 3, I think, those who turn many to righteousness shall be like the stars forever. So godly people are compared with stars in Daniel. And that’s also where the image of stars being cast down to the ground originally is found. So Revelation seems to be borrowing that imagery. And so it may be that the third of the stars that are cast to the ground by the tale of Satan is an allusion to the persecution of godly people rather than the corruption of a third of the angels. We simply don’t have enough to choose between those options, but it is possible that the number of angels who sinned, which we know some did, might have been as much as a third of them. but that’s not really a clearly taught doctrine in Scripture.
SPEAKER 10 :
So is it clear, it sounds like it is actually clear, that there were angels that actually sinned? I mean, playing devil’s advocate, like whatever the verse was that you quoted where they left their rightful place, I mean, I could make the argument maybe that their rightful place was in the heavenly realm, but as tempters or minions for the devil and then they decided to leave that place but i mean you you quoted a verse that says that they actually sinned and i don’t know that i’ve ever read that yeah yeah in in jude 6 it says they left their first estate and in second peter 2 4 it says they sinned yeah gotcha okay okay so so i guess one last question what what would give us confidence in that no more angels will do this?
SPEAKER 04 :
Well, I don’t know that we have absolute confidence that no more will, but the Bible doesn’t predict that they will. So, I mean, you know, I would imagine that the judgment that came upon those who did would be a warning to other angels. You know, resistance is futile. You don’t rebel against God and get away with it. I would think they may have wised up, though I’m surprised that any would not have known that in the past.
SPEAKER 10 :
Yeah, that’s just the part I can’t reconcile. It’s just so hard for me to understand that part, and I guess maybe I’ll learn why when I die.
SPEAKER 04 :
Well, yeah, there’s many, many mysteries that we don’t know, and I think with material like that, I think God… reveals things on a need-to-know basis for us. If we needed some, I think he’d say so.
SPEAKER 10 :
Thank you so much, man. That was very enlightening. Merry Christmas.
SPEAKER 04 :
Same to you, Brian. God bless. You too.
SPEAKER 10 :
Bye.
SPEAKER 04 :
All right. Priscilla from Vancouver, British Columbia. Welcome to The Narrow Path.
SPEAKER 01 :
Hi, Steve. Big salute. Big salute. I would like to touch base on a day when I was feeling really guilty about being a whore, being a prostitute, and I was feeling really some way as a woman. I was folding my laundry, and I know, then I heard in my heart ears, Joshua chapter 2. Now, I’m not at your level at all, so I was like, what do you mean? Like, okay, Joshua chapter 2, open my Bible. Well, lo and behold, Rahab, could you expand and touch base to any woman that was feeling like me that day, that there is hope and maybe we do have a path and we’ve done things, but surely there’s hope and a path for us and redemption. If we stay close with being obedient, let go of our old ways. And apparently Rahab became the grandmother of Jesus Christ. Correct me if I’m wrong, sir.
SPEAKER 04 :
Uh, you are not wrong. Um, And even though certainly being a prostitute is a very unclean and immoral activity, it is not in the Bible represented as the most unclean. I mean, it certainly holds a stigma in a Christianized world. It has been a very terrible thing to do for a living and so forth. But it doesn’t say that it is somehow the unforgivable sin or that it was… you know, that doing so cancels out all opportunities for grace. The Bible says the blood of Jesus cleanses from all sin. So, I mean, it says in 1 John 1, verse 9, it says if we confess our sins to God, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. So a past in prostitution or a past in, you know, you know, well, I’m not going to name a whole bunch of other corrupt things, but there’s plenty of corrupt things that people do before they come to Christ. Those things do not prevent God from being able to totally cleanse you from all sin and use you as if you had never done those things and accept you. God knows that prostitutes like everybody else, generally speaking, have fallen into that lifestyle by either ignorance, I mean some measure of ignorance of God, they don’t know God, or just out of sheer desperation in their lives, it can’t be a fun profession. And so, you know, God knows all that. I mean, he doesn’t approve of it, but he, you know, God is capable of disapproving of our actions while still yearning to accept us as his children. And, I mean, that’s what the prodigal son tells us. In fact, the prodigal son is said to have wasted his living with prostitutes. So he’s on the other end of that business, but still guilty of it. Now, Rahab was a prostitute. She was a harlot in Jericho, and she was a pagan. In fact, she was part of a race that God had said had to be wiped out. But she turned to God. She adopted the faith of the Israelite people. And she became part of the Israelite nation, and she did marry a man of the tribe of Judah named Solomon. And she was an ancestor of David and then, of course, of Jesus, because Jesus came from David. So she’s listed in the genealogy of Jesus in Matthew chapter 1, as one of the few women mentioned who died. who gave rise to Jesus through, you know, through the physical descent. So, yeah, I mean, this, I think, bespeaks complete redemption, you know, from even a life of harlotry. So go and sin no more, you know, and have a Merry Christmas. All right. Let’s talk to Ann from San Diego, California. Welcome, Ann.
SPEAKER 02 :
Yes. Thank you, Steve. Such an excellent program. And what I want to do is just very quickly touch on three points regarding the New Covenant, and then would love to hear your response. So I just want to say that, thank you. So out there, sometimes there’s the concept that the Old Testament covenants are canceled out by the New Covenant. So I would just admit that the Old Testament covenants were canceled not canceled, but fulfilled by the new covenant of Jesus Christ, our Lord. And I would use, among other scriptures, I would use Matthew 5, 17, where our Lord says, I have not come to abolish the law, but to fulfill it, which is just so wonderful. Second point, quickly, I would also submit that the ceremonial law, of course, it did end, but I think it’s most poignantly fulfilled. I think everything about the ceremonial law was pointing to our Lord, and the ceremonial law is, again, fulfilled. Instead of canceled, of course, it stopped. It ended. It’s no longer practiced, but it’s fulfilled in the eternally efficacious sacrifice of our Lord. And then the final thing I want to say is, and I just can’t wait to hear your response, that another aspect of this fulfillment is that the divine revelation of the Old Testament, a.k.a. in the Ten Commandments, which sometimes people forget is divine revelation, that also carries over into the New Testament. And I would use as a support of Scripture Matthew 19, where Jesus is asked, how does one gain eternal life? And the first thing the Lord starts to say, he starts to list the Decalogue, a.k.a. the Ten Commandments. Have you fulfilled this commandment? Have you fulfilled that commandment? So I put forth in this, I end with saying, not only are we in the New Covenant, we have multiple obligations in the New Covenant. Yes, absolutely, to put our faith in the Lord Jesus Christ to be saved, but also to… honor these and obey these obligations of faith and morals that carry over and are heightened in a sense. In the Sermon on the Mount, Jesus really takes the commandments to a greater state of obligation for us. So we’d love to hear your comments on that.
SPEAKER 04 :
Sure. Well, I agree for the most part with all that you said. I think that we, you mentioned the moral requirements. I believe that all the moral requirements of the law remain intact for the simple reason that morality is not, what should we say, it’s not something that is created by making laws. It is something that is reflected in laws that are made. That is, there’s a moral code a moral standard that is based in who God is. And God has never been different and never will be different. And therefore, God’s character determines what morality is. And this was true before the law was given. It’s true after the law was fulfilled. I mean, there’s always the same moral standards because God, whose character they’re based upon, is always the same. So, yeah, everything that’s a moral law in the Old Testament… actually was also morally required, although I should say it’s morally right, before the law was given. It wasn’t all explained. And so some people did things that are less than moral without knowing they were doing that. But, you know, it’s not as if, you know, it suddenly became bad to commit adultery when God put that in the Ten Commandments, or it suddenly became bad to steal or to murder or to dishonor your parents when God put those laws in there. He put those laws in there because it is bad to do those things. It was bad before he said it, and he’s listing those there so that we might always know that they’re bad things. Now, in the Ten Commandments, there was the Sabbath law, which is one of the ceremonial laws. The ceremonial laws had to do with holy days, clean foods and unclean foods, holy places, ritual sacrifices, and so forth. those things that distinguished Israel from other nations that were not basically rooted in morality, but in symbolism. The ritualistic things symbolized spiritual things. They were a type of Christ, as you pointed out, and fulfilled in Christ in spiritual ways. So that’s how I understand the law and so forth. Now, when we say the new covenant didn’t cancel out the old covenant, but just fulfilled it, I think the fulfilling of it was sort of a cancellation of it because it says in Hebrews 8.13 that where there’s a new covenant, the old one has become obsolete. But how I understand that, it’s like when a little boy grows up into a man or a little girl into a woman. that personhood, that individual’s identity does not change. It just passes from an immature stage to a mature stage. In a sense, when a boy becomes a man, his boyhood is canceled out and is replaced with manhood. On the other hand, it’s a fulfillment of his boyhood because boyhood anticipates manhood, looks forward to manhood. And so, in a sense, it’s a fulfillment. In another sense, because it is fulfilled, it also is a cancellation. But the moral requirements, which were reflected both in the law and outside the law, are always true, no matter which covenant we’re in, and no matter even before there were any covenants made. Morality is what it is, because it reflects the character of God, and that doesn’t change. I appreciate your call and your observations, Anne. We’re out of time. I’m sorry for those who are waiting, but we have Call in tomorrow. Those of you who didn’t get on today, call in tomorrow. We’ll talk to you then. You’ve been listening to the Narrow Path radio broadcast. We’ve been on the air daily for 28 years at this point. We pay radio stations all over the country to run the station so you can hear it for free. But we have no commercials or sponsors or underwriters. We are simply listener supported. If you’d like to help us stay on the air by paying the bills, you can write to the Narrow Path P.O. Box 1730. Temecula, California, 92593 or go to thenarrowpath.com.
