What separates happily married couples from those heading for divorce? On today’s edition of Family Talk, Dr. James Dobson welcomes relationship expert Dr. Gary Smalley to discuss the four “germs” that destroy marriages and the three powerful “antibiotics” that can heal them. From the danger of belittling your spouse to the power of truly listening, this conversation offers practical hope for every couple. To support this ministry financially, visit: https://www.oneplace.com/donate/707/29?v=20251111
Welcome everyone to Family Talk. It’s a ministry of the James Dobson Family Institute supported by listeners just like you. I’m Dr. James Dobson and I’m thrilled that you’ve joined us.
SPEAKER 01 :
Well, welcome to Family Talk, the broadcast division of the Dr. James Dobson Family Institute. I’m Roger Marsh, and today we’re bringing you a conversation featuring the late Gary Smalley, a beloved author, speaker, and marriage expert whose nearly 50-year career helped countless couples build stronger relationships through Bible-based wisdom. Gary Smalley had a rare gift of combining humor with deep insight. He often joked that he made his living telling people how he messed up his own marriage and what he learned from those mistakes. Gary’s transparency and practical teaching style made his message resonate with millions. Before he went home to be with the Lord in 2016, Gary authored more than 60 books and produced materials that have helped families all around the world. In the conversation you’re about to hear, Dr. James Dobson talks with Gary Smalley about four common germs that infect marriages and three powerful antibiotics to cure them. So whether you’re in the newlywed season or you’re celebrating decades of marriage together, this timeless wisdom will strengthen your relationship. Here now is Dr. James Dobson and his guest, Dr. Gary Smalley, on today’s edition of Family Talk.
SPEAKER 04 :
The four germs that interfere with marriage or weaken marriage or kill marriage.
SPEAKER 02 :
What are they? Let’s start with number one. And these come from Dr. Scott Stanley and Howard Markman’s work and Dr. John Gottman’s work and several other different people in the country. But here’s how I like to set it up, if I can explain it this way. Let’s imagine that we have a unity candle here that you would see at a typical wedding. You have the two smaller candles on the outside that are lit already, and then you have the one center candle that’s not lit. So after the couple does their vows… and prays, they usually get off their knees and the minister sets aside and they go up and they take each one of them, the man and the woman takes a candle and they light the center one and then they blow their candles out. And I’ve done a number of weddings, so I’m always nervous it’s going to catch a veil on fire or something. And then when they’re blown out, they only have one candle now. Here’s what I’ve been realizing this last year. The one candle that’s lit is the unity candle because now the man has left his father and his mother and he’s cleaving with his wife, which means he’s gluing with her. And the two of them are becoming one. Now, here’s what we’ve realized with the marriage research in the last year. The problem with couples and the average divorce is between five and seven years after marriage. But the average couple gets married and they still remain singles. They forget that they’re married. So what they do is they include the I and the me in their conversations a lot instead of the we. We’re a teen now. We’re not singles anymore. But if they remain singles, they get infected with these four germs. That’s how this happens. And they remain singles by having ordinary arguments about ordinary things, money, sex, kids, in-laws, job, cars, whatever it is, just ordinary stuff. But what they do is they approach every argument as a single and they try to win their position, which is remaining a single. And that infects them with these germs.
SPEAKER 04 :
And it interferes with intimacy. And it interferes with intimacy. Intimacy is the most satisfying aspect of a good marriage. Absolutely. And it is eluding many people.
SPEAKER 02 :
Just think of this comment that Gary Oliver taught me five years ago. All arguments are doorways to intimacy, to oneness. But if a couple doesn’t see it as a doorway, they tend to avoid the argument. Or they use an argument in a destructive way. So the four germs are all destructive ways of arguing, communicating in a marriage, which infect the marriage. And the disease is anger. But the infections are these. Withdrawing during an argument. It’s almost always the male. Because we get easily flooded with too many words, and we don’t like to argue or fight without rules. And so women can fight without rules, but we don’t like that, so we withdraw. That’s a germ and it causes the disease of anger for both people. And that’s what kills love. That’s why the divorce rate between five and seven years is so significant. Second one is escalation. Start yelling at each other, saying things you don’t really mean, shouldn’t say, causes anger. In fact, a man’s heart rate goes up almost twice as fast as a woman’s. When a man hits 100 beats a minute, he loses his ability to continue the argument rationally. So he either withdraws or becomes sometimes verbally or even physically abusive. So that’s a dangerous thing. Third one is the number one killer of marriages in America today. Anytime you belittle your mate… Or you come across as superior. You say and do things that imply that your mate is inferior to you. Little cut-downs. This is usually during an argument. Listen to how fascinating. You may have heard this before, but Dr. John Gottman has studied couples over a weekend where they videotape everything that goes on over the weekend. There’s a muscle on a man’s face right here. It’s right here on the edge of his mouth. And when it goes up, with his eyes rolling a little bit.
SPEAKER 04 :
Sort of an Elvis Presley muscle.
SPEAKER 02 :
Yeah, exactly. It goes up. During a conversation with his wife during the day, they have actually recorded how many times that happens during the day. They have a scientific name for that muscle, and I can never remember it. But anyway, they can tell a woman… what kind of diseases she will have three years later, depending on the number of times that muscle goes up during the day. I would call it the old brother muscle. Yeah, exactly. That’s kind of the attitude. That’s right, right. And it’s not just men. I mean, women are great at this. I mean, they can put us down so fast. And that is the most destructive disease, which is the exact opposite of the major commandment in Scripture of considering others to be more valuable than you consider yourself.
SPEAKER 04 :
You know, it never ceases to amaze me the power of words.
SPEAKER 02 :
Yeah.
SPEAKER 04 :
They’re so easy to say. Yeah. You don’t even have to think much to say these terribly powerful words. Yeah. And in fact, God himself identified himself with the words. Exactly. Yeah. And the things that you say in one of those moments when your heart rate is over 100 can be just thrown out there so quickly and not even really meant, but they’re remembered for a lifetime.
SPEAKER 02 :
Sure they are. Right. And that’s a major, major damage to that relationship. And if it’s over and over and over, like a lot of women don’t realize every time they say, ugh. Would you put your seatbelt on? You know, those little kind of demeaning statements, parenting that husband, oftentimes the average woman has no idea that that means I’m infecting our relationship with the worst germ that you can infect it with, which is the germ of belittling. It diminishes the personhood of the individual. And the hurt that it causes and oftentimes not discussed because it’s hard to discuss that. If you do, you’ll escalate or withdraw. And then there’s the germ, which is really powerful. My son Greg is a psychologist also. He believes this is the biggest germ from his counseling experience. And he says it’s when a couple starts seeing more negative in their mate than is actually there. So in other words, human nature anyway, you know how we like bad news and stuff all the time? Well, when you see too much negative in your mate, the more negative you see, the more you will see. which is a downward cycle because it’s called confirmation bias. Whatever you believe about your mate, you both see and hear, even if it isn’t true.
SPEAKER 04 :
I’m not sure if I understand. When you say he sees more negative, he sees characteristics that bother him about the other person.
SPEAKER 02 :
Exactly. And then they exaggerate them. And then the more they exaggerate these negative things, they actually believe. Like, for example, if we’re going to buy one of those new Volkswagen Bugs, we see them everywhere. Because it’s kind of selective perception. Well, when a woman thinks her husband is overly negative, then actually what it really is, she’ll see it bigger and bigger continually.
SPEAKER 04 :
Okay, those are the four viruses, four bugs, if you will.
SPEAKER 02 :
Let’s talk about the three antibiotics. What it is, here are the three antibiotics. The skill of honor. In fact, there’s three things you do with the skill of honor. My mates are very valuable, just like autographed by God. So they’re very valuable. And the second thing you do is you make a list of all the things that – are very valuable about your mate. In other words, this has been proven scientifically that if you start a written list of the positive things about your mate and you keep that list going for years, that alone is enough to sustain you during any crisis in marriage. Dr. John Gottman found that. Well, what we found also is one researcher in one of the universities in the East found that when he took conflicted couples… and gave them various assignments, he found that if he got couples just to make a list and to remind each other of this list on a regular basis of how positive you are as my mate, you know, to share the list with each other, he found that 70% of the time, if they only made the list and reviewed it, And kept it going, those couples improved significantly and stayed in love readily.
SPEAKER 04 :
Okay, that’s the second point under the first antibiotic.
SPEAKER 02 :
Yeah, that’s true, that’s true. The third point under the first antibiotic. The third point under honor is you tell your mate verbally. You express it either in writing or you say it on a regular basis of how valuable that person is. And that concept of honor is what the scripture says is considering others is really more valuable than we consider ourselves. It’s really Romans 12.10. Be devoted to one another in brotherly love, preferring one another in honor.
SPEAKER 04 :
See, that’s the other end of the continuum between what you talked about a minute ago of diminishing the personhood of the other individual.
SPEAKER 02 :
And so that one skill eliminates the worst germ in relationships. The second skill is we call love talk, L-U-V-E. And that’s listen, understand, and validate. I got this from Dr. Stanley, and then I realized one day when I was going to a drive-thru restaurant, McDonald’s, Wendy’s, one of those, okay, that’s exactly what they do. Now, they have spent millions of dollars researching how to have good relationships with their customers and not having customers divorcing them. What do they do? They do exactly what Scott Stanley found is the best communication in the world, and to eliminate these four germs in marriage. They do the exact same thing at McDonald’s. In other words, you drive up there, somebody always says, welcome to McDonald’s, can I take your order? That’s very honoring. And then you say, I want a hamburger, a fry, and a Diet Coke, okay? And then they always say – let me see if I’m hearing you right. They don’t say those words, but they say, you want a hamburger, a fry, and a Diet Coke. And then you say yes, and then you go forward. Now, if they would have said you want a – no, if you want a child’s meal and a Diet Coke, you say, no, no, no, no, no, no, I didn’t say that. You never hear them say, excuse me, sir, I’m looking in that round mirror over there, and I see you’re a pretty good-sized person. Are you sure you want a double cheeseburger, sir? They don’t say that because that would be invalidating.
SPEAKER 04 :
That would be belittling. I hate to mess up your illustration, but I can’t understand those little speakers that they talk on anyway.
SPEAKER 02 :
That’s right. But the point is they don’t lose their customers by giving their opinion. They listen. They validate. Give you what you want. And they give you what you want. And if you don’t give what you want, what do they always do? I’m sorry. Let me redo that order. They’re very careful. Guess what we do in marriage, though? And it all centers around mainly opinions. But let’s say when we do in marriage, what happens is that your mate gives you an opinion about something you’re arguing about. What’s the typical couple do? They belittle one another’s opinion. They express by either facial or verbal ways of saying, don’t you realize how smart I am and how right I am? And how dumb you are. And yes, how inferior you are. Can’t you get it? When we operate that way, we get infected. But if you use the method that Scott Stanley taught me, which my wife and I have been using for five years and it’s literally revolutionized our own discussions on arguments. And you can stop a teenager dead in their tracks in an argument by using the method. They don’t even need to know what you’re doing. Which is to affirm them, to listen. To listen, to repeat back what they’re saying. You don’t have to like what they’re saying. You don’t have to agree with what they’re saying. All you do is use the method. And you know what I did? I guess I can tell this. About a month ago with Norma, she and I were having an argument about how we’re going to reorganize our business. It’s been a little touchy. Have you ever had any kind of touchy discussions with Shirley?
SPEAKER 04 :
No, we never had any kind of touchy discussions.
SPEAKER 02 :
So we were having this. We were driving from Keystone down to Denver to get on the airport. So we had a couple hours drive. I decided to use this method without her knowing what I was doing and without me doing my part. In other words, when you really use this right, you exchange with each other. We started in Keystone. I did nothing but listen to her for two hours and repeat back what she was saying, clarify what she was saying. And Jim, I was totally amazed that she answered her own argument with some of the best solutions I’ve ever heard in my life. She didn’t need you to give an answer. She didn’t need me. And I affirmed her solutions because I liked them. And it taught me again that oftentimes if you just listen and understand a person, it’s amazing.
SPEAKER 04 :
The only thing Shirley and I fight over is the thermostat. And I don’t know how we’re going to get around that one. She says, I’m cold. I’m turning it up now. So I say, I see you’re cold. But I’m not sure we can solve that one quite as easily.
SPEAKER 02 :
Yeah, but you know what’s fun is when you both hear each other. and you both understand each other, and you both validate each other, because the unity candle is really an expression of that, what happens is our mind comes up with some of the greatest solutions to include both of us. That’s really the intimacy in a marriage is when you come up with a solution that you both like. So use your brain to do that. I love it. It’s been amazing. Okay, we have one more antibiotic coming. Yes, one more antibiotic. According to the research experts, Almost all arguments are caused because people perceive their needs not going to be met. It’s either it’s not being met or it’s perceived not to be met. So what we have discovered is that people have these relational needs deep in their heart. If they don’t think they’re going to be met, they even get into arguments. It’s like the surface thing we’re arguing about has really nothing to do with my deeper need. For example, my wife has a tremendous need to be organized and for our home to be in order and for us to abide by all the rules in life. Like she doesn’t like to park in a place. that says, even hints that we shouldn’t be parking there. Where my personality can basically park anywhere. And so, you know, like Silver Dollar City in Branson, Missouri has an employee parking lot. Well, I know the owners real well, so they’ve told me to park there. Well, Norma can’t do that because it says sticker parking only. So I had to go to the owners eventually and get a sticker and stick on my rearview mirror kind of thing to be able to do that. Well, Norma’s need is order and regularity and precision a lot of times. It’s not mine. So we’ll argue about a lot of things that have nothing to do with what we’re arguing about. It’s all about her need to be in order. So since I know that’s her biggest need, she knows my biggest need is to do fun things with other people, to talk and do fun things with people. Since she knows that’s my need, she falls over herself to make sure that need is met in my life.
SPEAKER 04 :
You know, when you think about that unity candle, it’s really incredible that you can bring these two different, very different personalities together. And that they can mesh with one another.
SPEAKER 02 :
And see, the fun thing is we can use our brain that God gave us to find out what her need is. She finds out what my need is. And we don’t have to hassle each other over these trivial arguments that we had for years because we really are attending. Oh, here’s another great statistic. they found that what separates couples who are divorced and couples who are happily married is 20 minutes a day of attending to each other’s needs. Just 20 minutes. Everybody has 20 minutes. And if you know what that need is and you attend to it, it’s amazing. So here again, if I know what infects my marriage, incidentally, Norma and I do not escalate anymore. Never. When we start, which I’m the one that usually wants to start, What happens is that one of us remembers that this is a germ and so we don’t do it anymore. And we never do it on vacation.
SPEAKER 04 :
In fact, we don’t even- There are those hot buttons, you know, those things that really set us off.
SPEAKER 02 :
Exactly. When you see those coming, what do you do? Well, one of us says time out. And we both stay to each other from time to time. That’s not acceptable. And so we don’t go that way. Now, another thing Norma does, which has really been powerful for my life, is we have three people in Branson who are like our 911 group. And when we get into a serious discussion that we can’t solve on our own, she’ll say, why don’t we call our 911 group and we get together. We use the same method, but it’s people who love us, and we do it in front of people. So it’s like a small group. It’s one of our small groups. And you have three of those. Yeah, we have three people. I’m in three different small groups. You mean every week you’re with them? No, I’m not in every week in every group, but I have groups. I’m training leaders to have small groups. So I’m in small groups with Norma, and we open our life up and tell them the struggles we’re going through. Where’s Norma? Where’s every other couple? I mean, every couple goes through pretty similar things. And so we’re able to be as transparent as we need to be because we’re just like everybody else.
SPEAKER 04 :
And you have confidence that that won’t be shared with anybody and won’t be abused.
SPEAKER 02 :
They can share it with you. I make my living sharing that. That’s how I make my living. I mean, all my books talk about my screw-ups. Yeah. You know, that’s what I do. And you know what? You’d think I’d get this stuff down someday. And you know what? I got to be reminded. And it’s amazing.
SPEAKER 04 :
What would you say, Gary, to a young couple? They’ve just been married a week or two and they haven’t had all these problems yet. They’re still on the honeymoon emotionally. Right. And they want to live together forever. They want their marriage to have intimacy. They want to do the right things. Where do they start?
SPEAKER 02 :
I would say that they can’t let another month go by without finding the great materials that are available. They got to get training and they got to get into a mentor group, small group, and keep that training going. They’ll be amazed. Take my own son, Michael, a counseling therapist, graduated from Wheaton. 18 hours after he got wedded, he wasn’t speaking to his wife.
SPEAKER 04 :
Isn’t that interesting?
SPEAKER 02 :
They were so locked in an argument.
SPEAKER 04 :
That always amazes me that you can go through the courtship and spend 18 hours a day looking at each other’s eyes. And you’re just so in love you can hardly bear it. And you get married and then you find out some things you hadn’t stumbled over yet.
SPEAKER 02 :
One year they argued like cats and dogs but never said a thing to me. And he was embarrassed. He was grieved. He didn’t know what direction it was going to go. And it was Scott Stanley’s training. The prep stuff, you know, the speaker-listener, which is really what I call the drive-through listening, the love talk, changed our marriage.
SPEAKER 04 :
You get your stuff out of the Word, and if it is consistent with what you find there, you can be pretty sure that it’s going to be right.
SPEAKER 02 :
It’s 1 Timothy 6.3. Is it consistent with what Jesus taught, and will it lead to God living? Some of my favorite verses. Is it still possible to live together for a lifetime? Absolutely. There’s so much – any couple – in fact, we even have our own counseling center at our center now with licensed counselors. We see some of the most impossible situations turn right around. So there’s hope for – I don’t care what couple, whatever they’re dealing with, I know there’s hope today.
SPEAKER 04 :
Now, you know, I would like to offer that hope to those who are listening to us now and whose marriages are in serious trouble. I mean, there are a lot of them out there, and they’ve contemplated divorce. They see no way out. There is hope for those folks. You know, I taught a Sunday school class back in the 70s and early 80s, I think for 12, 14 years. It was a big class, and it was made up of young married couples. There were as many as 100, 150 people there. And out of that class, there were about 20 people who were threatened with the most serious marital difficulties, primarily infidelity. And most of those people survived as a couple, and most of them are still married today. So it is possible to face those things and to overcome them.
SPEAKER 02 :
But when you’re in the middle of them or you’re easing into them, it seems so impossible. Gary, it’s always fun to have you here.
SPEAKER 04 :
Thank you. You’re a good man. I love it. Well, come back and see us again, Gary.
SPEAKER 01 :
Okay, thank you very much. Gary Smalley had a way of making you laugh while teaching you something that you could really use to save your marriage. His blend of humor and practical wisdom is what so many couples need to hear even today. And you’re listening to a special edition of Dr. James Dobson’s Family Talk, featuring a classic conversation that Dr. Dobson had with his good friend, Gary Smalley. Now, if you missed any portion of today’s broadcast, or if you’d like to share it with a couple who could use some further encouragement, visit jdfi.net. And if you want to go deeper on these ideas of honor, communication, and meeting each other’s needs, we have a resource waiting for you at JDFI.net as well. Just visit our website and read a brand new blog about marriage with grace and honor. It dives further into the themes that we explored today and offers additional insights to strengthen your relationship based on Dr. Dobson’s timeless wisdom. You’ll find it right on our homepage, and it’s also linked on today’s broadcast page as well. So go to jdfi.net for information about today’s broadcast and also the brand new blog titled Marriage with Grace and Honor. You know, when a marriage thrives, the whole family feels it. Children grow up with security. Homes become places of peace instead of conflict. And that’s why we are so passionate about equipping couples with that kind of practical biblical wisdom that you heard about on today’s Family Talk broadcast. But programs like the one you heard today are only possible because friends like you believe in our mission, are praying for us and give generously to support it. Your gift today of any amount helps us continue bringing trusted voices and timeless wisdom to couples and families who need it. Every dollar you donate strengthens our ability to defend marriage, support parents, and share the gospel with a culture that is drifting further and further from God. To make a secure donation, go to jdfi.net. You can also write to us. Our ministry mailing address is Dr. James Dobson’s Family Talk, P.O. Box 39000, Colorado Springs, Colorado, the zip code 80949. Once again, our ministry mailing address is Dr. James Dobson’s Family Talk, Or if you prefer, just use those initials JDFI for short. P.O. Box 39000, Colorado Springs, Colorado. The zip code 80949. If you’d like to speak with a member of our constituent care team, you can always do so when you dial 877-732-6825. That’s 877-732-6825. Well, I’m Roger Marsh, and from all of us here at the Dr. James Dobson Family Institute and the Family Talk broadcast, thank you so much for listening today. Be sure to join us again next time right here for another edition of Dr. James Dobson’s Family Talk, the voice you can still trust for the family you love. This has been a presentation of the Dr. James Dobson Family Institute. Here’s today’s Dr. Dobson Minute with Dr. James Dobson.
SPEAKER 03 :
My friend Ron Blue is a financial consultant and the author of several books about money management. He says parents should show their children the connection between work and rewards. In other words, we need to make it clear that money must be earned. Children must learn that income is the result of investing time, energy, and talents in worthwhile activities. the hard part about teaching this lesson is that parents must endure the discomfort of saying no to the many demands of persistent children in other words every child needs to be told no on occasion otherwise why should they sweat for it when they can get it for free Well, that’s why within reason, I recommend that parents require children to earn their own money to buy the things they want. They’ll learn that it takes commitment and persistence to survive financially, which should serve them well as they move into the adult years. For more information, visit drdobsonminute.org.
