Join host Steve Gregg as he delves into intriguing questions from callers that challenge biblical interpretations and raise discussions on God’s justice. From the perceived contradictions in scripture to the vastness of the universe and its implications for life beyond Earth, this episode offers a compelling exploration of faith and theology. With thoughtful responses to questions on free will, divine plans, and the role of state involvement in marriages, listeners are invited to gain deeper insights into their faith.
SPEAKER 01 :
This is the best of the Narrow Path Radio broadcast. The following is pre-recorded.
SPEAKER 05 :
The following is pre-recorded.
SPEAKER 02 :
Welcome to the Narrow Path Radio Program, hosted by Steve Gregg. Steve is not in the studio today, so calls from listeners will not be able to be taken. In the place of the usual format, we’ve put together some of the best calls from past programs. They cover a variety of topics important to anyone interested in the Bible and Christianity. In addition to the radio program, The Narrow Path has a website. You can go to www.thenarrowpath.com, where you can find hundreds of resources that can all be downloaded for free. And now, please enjoy this special collection of calls to Steve Gregg and The Narrow Path.
SPEAKER 08 :
Our first caller today is Alec calling from Salinas, California. Alec, welcome to The Narrow Path. Thanks for calling.
SPEAKER 09 :
Good morning, Steve. If I could, I just want to read three quick verses, and then I have a couple of questions. The first one is Ezekiel 18.20. It says, The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son. And then the second one is Deuteronomy 24.16. The father shall not be put to death for the children, neither shall the children be put to death for the fathers. Every man shall be put to death for his own sin. And then finally, Exodus 11, 5, it says, And all the firstborn in the land of Egypt shall die from the firstborn of the Pharaoh that sits upon the throne, even unto the firstborn of the maidservant that is behind the mill. So my question is, um, First of all, do you see a contradiction in those three verses, and do you think that is something a just God would do?
SPEAKER 08 :
Well, I do think it is something that a just God did, because I believe God is just. As far as a contradiction, I don’t, because in Deuteronomy 24, this is not making a statement about all events in history, that innocent people will never die for their father’s actually many people died in every war that their fathers started, and many times children have died in wars, and that’s not just biblical wars, just throughout history. If it was a prediction that there would never be a case where a child died because of his father’s sins, then that would certainly be a false prediction. But what Deuteronomy is doing is giving legislation about how Israel was supposed to legislate penalties for criminals, and God was forbidding them to execute the whole families of the children of criminals. Just because a man was a criminal, you couldn’t kill his whole family for that. And in some societies in the ancient world, they did that kind of thing. God said, no, you can’t do that. You can only kill the guilty party. And likewise in Ezekiel, he’s talking about the judgment that’s coming on Jerusalem with the Babylonian invasion. And he’s saying that the Jews were saying Well, our fathers have sinned, and now we’re suffering these consequences. And God says, no, people are suffering consequences for their own sins. You’re not suffering the consequences of your father’s sins. The person who sins is going to suffer the consequences of it here. And he’s talking specifically about the judgment that God was bringing on Jerusalem in that case. Actually, those who weren’t sinning against God fled to Egypt and were not destroyed in that. So it was a prediction about this particular event. But neither of these statements are general statements that you’ll never find a child dying for his father’s sins. Actually, to tell you the truth, every aborted child often, well, not everyone, but a great number of aborted children die because of their parents’ sins. The children are innocent enough. Likewise, the children in Egypt who died, if they were infants or very young, they certainly were not dying for their own sins because they hadn’t committed any, although many of the firstborn probably were not infants and may have been adults. You know, when a child dies in a general sweeping disaster, the child dies innocent before God. And as I understand it, everybody dies, whether they’re innocent or not. We’re all going to die. The best of people are going to die, and the worst of people are going to die. It’s universal. Everyone’s going to die. The question is, what is God going to do about people after they die? As far as I’m concerned, as I understand the Scriptures, children, when they die, die on good terms with God. I believe that there’s an age of accountability. When a child dies before they’ve reached that age of accountability, that they die on good terms with God. So any truly innocent party who dies in a general calamity, you know, I believe dies on good terms with God if they’re really innocent. And then, you know, their eternity is really what matters a lot more than how long any of us live. I mean, if somebody doesn’t believe in eternity, then, of course, they wouldn’t be sympathetic toward this answer. But the Bible clearly teaches there is an eternal destiny for every person. And that being so, whatever ends up being our case in eternity is far more important than the few days we live on this earth. Now, in the case of the children dying in Egypt, this was a case of a general judgment on a nation, a partial judgment, which took only the firstborn in that case. In other cases where God sent fire and brimstone, on Sodom and Gomorrah, of course that took out everybody, men, women, and children, and many innocents died in that case. Same thing with the flood in Noah’s day. There are many situations in the world, tsunamis and earthquakes and wars and terrorist attacks and things like that, where innocent people die, not because they’ve necessarily sinned, but because there’s a bunch of people died in one location, and they happen to be among them. Now, the words in Deuteronomy, are not talking about that kind of thing. It’s talking about how the judges of Israel are supposed to administrate punishments to criminals. And it’s made very clear that they are not supposed to punish the families of the criminals just because of the criminals’ crimes.
SPEAKER 09 :
But aren’t the first two verses showing God’s character? Shouldn’t there be like a consistency? You know, if God is telling Israel, this is how I want you to conduct yourself because… That is the way I conduct myself. I mean, isn’t there a contradiction there?
SPEAKER 08 :
Not exactly, because there are some, it’s like, you know, if there’s a bank being robbed or a crime being committed in progress in our town, if I pull out a gun and shoot the criminal, I’ll probably go to jail because I’m not authorized to do that. But if somebody who’s authorized to enforce the law shows up and it ends up being a gunfight and he kills the criminal, there’ll be no prosecution against him for that because he’s not me. I’m an ordinary citizen, and that person is an authorized government official, you know, a law enforcement official. God is the judge of the universe, and frankly, he decides how everyone will die and when they’ll die. And an awful lot of people die due to no fault of their own. I mean, there are babies who die at birth or shortly after birth. There are good people who die, missionaries who catch Ebola because they’re trying to help people in a foreign country or people who are innocently driving on the freeway and a drunk driver hits them and kills them. These kind of things happen all the time. This is the way the world is. Now, we could say that in every case when someone dies, God could have prevented it because he’s sovereign. He can do what he wants. Or we could say, well, God has declared that everyone who has ever sinned is going to die. And this being so, the real issue is not when or how. We die, but on what terms with God we die. And as I said, God has the right to take out a whole society if he wants to. He’s God. But he’s not inconsistent in telling us not to do that. Now, if he does tell someone to do that, like he told Israel to do that to the Canaanites, God’s authorized to do that as well. One thing that we need to take into consideration is we don’t have God’s authority or his prerogatives. He does desire for us to have his character. He wants us to love even our enemies, and he loves his enemies. And when he wipes out a society, it’s not because he doesn’t love people. It may seem like it, but of course at the judgment is when we’ll see what his love looks like. When people die, it doesn’t mean God was against them. Children who die, for example, like the firstborn of Egypt, if some of them were babies. God wasn’t against those babies. It was a punishment on the parents. But likewise, David lost a baby through his own adultery. You know, God took the baby, but the baby is not lost. The baby’s with the Lord, I believe. So to say that God can do certain things in the administration of justice in the universe, or even since he has the authority to decide when I will die or when anyone else will die, because everyone’s going to die sometime. The only question is when, and that’s God’s prerogative. It’s not the same thing as saying, therefore I have the right to decide when someone’s going to die, because I don’t. I’m not God. God is in a position of governance.
SPEAKER 09 :
universe that is not paralleled by anyone else’s position i’m not a parent but i’ve heard it said that uh there is nothing more painful than than losing a child and i can just imagine uh people in egypt you know losing a child for something they had absolutely no say in you know uh well actually they did have a say in it because they could put blood on their doorpost as god said to do and then the angel would not strike their home there actually was given a warning to them
SPEAKER 08 :
that if they would do a certain thing that God commanded, and many people did it and were spared, that they would be spared. And there were even Egyptians, not only Israelites, who did that, who were afraid of what might happen, and they followed God’s instructions, and they were spared. So nobody lost a child in that particular incident, except people who just refused to do what God said, in which case they had even been warned what would happen if they didn’t. But I guess they just took their chances. and taking your chances that God’s going to not fulfill his threats is not a very wise thing to do.
SPEAKER 09 :
Thanks for taking my call, Steve.
SPEAKER 08 :
All right, Alec. It’s hard on our emotions to think about these subjects, but, you know, the world is full of things that are very hard on our emotions, and we just have to kind of look at them as much as possible, rationally, and say, well, what’s really going on here? What’s the, you know, what principles does God operate upon? And I’ve looked at all those things a great deal, and I personally don’t think There’s anything there that reflects negatively on the character of God. Only if God would send people to hell and torture them forever when they had no opportunity to go anywhere else. That would reflect very negatively. But that people die. See, I had a wife who died when she was 25 years old. I didn’t expect that to happen. She was a good person. It was through no fault of her own. It was a careless driver that hit her. And she was killed instantly. And that was something that I didn’t see that coming. But When people asked me if I was angry at God for that, I thought, why in the world would I be angry at God? You know, when I married her, I knew she was going to die. I didn’t know she’d die at age 25. But I knew I was marrying a mortal human being who would die someday. And that it wouldn’t be happy for me when she died. Whether she died at age 25 or age 85 or 95, it wouldn’t be happy. It’s the fate of all people. They all die. And God, I feel, has every right to decide when I will die, when my children or my wife will die. Certainly I will be sorry when they die, if they die before I do. And I was very sorry when my wife died. But I didn’t ever think that God needed to explain himself, as if somehow my family was the one that was supposed to be immune from what all people experience, namely death, nor that we have any claim whatsoever. on ourselves dictating how God’s going to let us die or when. The real issue is, do we die prepared to meet God? If we’re prepared to meet God, Paul said to die is gain. It’s not a crisis for the person dying, only for the survivors. As you said, it is very hard for people to lose a family member. Alec, I appreciate your call very much, and thank you for talking to us today. All right, let’s talk to Rebecca.
SPEAKER 06 :
Hi, great to talk to you again. Ah, yes. My question today is, why do you think God made the universe so big, and do you think there could be life on other planets?
SPEAKER 08 :
Well, I mean, there could be life on other planets. We don’t know what God may or may not have done in that respect. If it was proven that there was life on other planets, it would not have any negative impact on the Christian faith. On the other hand, you know, the evidence that there is life on other planets is still I think, nebulous. We haven’t really gotten any signals from life on other planets, although the SETI project has been endeavoring to search the skies for any kind of radio transmissions from other galaxies or other solar systems and has gotten nothing for many decades. Of course, there are sightings of things that people think might be from other planetary planets, but of course, what they really are is not really known. They may be the products of intelligent life somewhere else in the universe, or they may be something else that we don’t know about that’s not being made known to the public. So I can’t really argue whether there’s likely to be life on other planets. I can say that if it turned out that there was, it would not contradict anything that the Bible says that I know of, and therefore it would not have a negative impact on our faith in the Bible. Why did God make the universe so big? Well, I’m not sure how big it needed to be for his purposes. I guess some people think, why is the earth so small? They say, how can you think that God’s focus of activity is on such a small little particle out in the huge universe as the earth is? Compared to the universe, we’re smaller than a grain of sand. And therefore, to think that earth is the center of God’s activity is and relations with his creatures. It seems arrogant on the part of many people who look at the Christian view about that. Yet I would say, well, how small do you want the universe to be in order for the earth to be comparatively large? You could make the earth a million times larger than it is. It would still be a speck in the universe. I assume the earth is the size that it needed to be in order for God’s purpose to be fulfilled. Why he filled space with other planets and other stars and systems like that is not something he’s revealed to us. So I don’t know the answer to that. Size is not what determines the importance of a thing, of course. I’d rather have a large growth on my arm than a small malignant growth in my brain. The size of the thing isn’t what matters. It’s the importance. It’s location. It’s what’s going on there. And so to say the earth is small compared to the rest of the universe doesn’t tell us one thing about its importance. Man is small compared to a mountain, but a man is far more important than a mountain in the grand scheme of things, at least in terms of the progress of human history. The size of the earth in comparison to the large universe doesn’t have any bearing on Christian claims about God’s focus upon the earth, at least as near as I can tell.
SPEAKER 06 :
Okay, thank you.
SPEAKER 08 :
Okay, Rebecca, thanks for your call. God bless you. All right, we’re going to talk to Ken from Diamond Bar, California. Ken, welcome to The Narrow Path. Thanks for calling.
SPEAKER 03 :
Yes, hello. I have a biblical genealogy question. This is on Genesis chapter 5 and 11, Adam to Abraham. Now, these two chapters seem to cause a lot of emotion.
SPEAKER 04 :
Really?
SPEAKER 03 :
They are very precise, and they give extra detail and no indication of gaps, and it’s deeply concerned with numbers and ages. However, the ancient Hebrews also foremost seemed concerned with projecting perfection, fullness, with their numbering and supplying a non-breaking link from Adam to the flood. So my question is the Genesis genealogy account, is it supposed to be historical? Or can we just view it as presenting a complete linkage pattern with perhaps the word son, meaning descendant?
SPEAKER 08 :
Yeah. Well, it’s… It has been taken both ways. And you mentioned it’s an emotional subject. I’m not sure who would find it an emotional issue to dispute whether any generations are left out or not. I personally don’t think any generations are left out, and it looks to me as if it’s meant to be a complete genealogy. But I’m very much aware of the fact that begot… some people say, means not just simply to become the father, but to become the ancestor of somebody. And so, if it says at such and such an age, so-and-so became the ancestor of someone else, but he did so by begetting the grandfather of that person or something, and thus, in doing so, became the ancestor, I can see that people could argue that. That doesn’t seem very natural to me. It doesn’t seem like a natural way of understanding it. On the other hand… I can’t see why I would get emotional if somebody had a different view than I had on it.
SPEAKER 03 :
Right. Okay. I guess it’s the chapters where someone wants to age the earth or age how long ago Adam was.
SPEAKER 08 :
I realize that. That’s the whole reason for the argument is to put the creation of Adam further back. than the 6,000 years that the genealogies would suggest. But again, that’s even something I’m not sure why anyone would get emotional about. Why would I care if Adam was created 6,000 years ago or 10,000 years ago? I mean, I have an opinion, but if someone differed from my opinion, I can’t imagine what would be at stake.
SPEAKER 03 :
All right. Okay. So there’s no reason for those two chapters to really be controversial. Yes.
SPEAKER 08 :
Well, I mean, controversial, I would say the passages seem pretty clear. But if somebody says, you know, I’m seeing a possibility of taking it a slightly different way, and if they’re doing it honestly, even if I think they’re making a mistake, I can just say, okay, you can see it that way if you want to. I don’t see why it has to be a big controversy.
SPEAKER 03 :
Okay.
SPEAKER 08 :
Yeah.
SPEAKER 03 :
Okay, and something very related. I’ll be quick because I don’t know if there’s anyone else on the line. Now, this is just something that occurred to me. Okay, you have the 70 weeks of Daniel. Now, 7 is the numeric symbol of perfection. 10 is the numeric symbol of fullness. Why can’t that be explained as really a prophecy of 69 weeks? with the one extra week added on just to reach that so-called magical seven and ten.
SPEAKER 08 :
Oh, in other words, that the prophecy really is fulfilled in 483 years with the coming of Christ the first time. Correct. And because that… And because that comes so close to 490 that it’s just rounded up to make it 70, because that’s a nice round number, just like we might… Well, some people believe, for example, that in the book of Judges… where every judge is said to have ruled for 40 years and then died, except for Gideon, who ruled for 80 years and then died. Some people say, well, isn’t that coincidental that 12 different judges would all come to power and die after they judged Israel for 40 years and not 41 or 39 or any number of that? And then, of course, Saul reigned for 40 years and died. And then David reigned for 40 years and died. And Solomon reigned for 40 days, 40 years and died. So it does, you know, it almost begins to look like a round number, like meaning a generation. And there are people who suggest that to be the case. Again, I don’t have the I don’t have enough knowledge. I don’t know if any of us do to know that this was not a literal number. It could have been literal in every case. It seems very coincidental, unless, of course, it’s providential. If God wanted them all to be 40 years, then it would be 40 years. But there are people who take some of these things as round numbers. And so the same kind of person might understand the 70 weeks simply to be rounding it up from, you know, it really was 69 sevens, but that’s so… close to 70, and 70 would be such an important symbolic number that they just rounded up. Again, I don’t see a need to explain it that way. I’ve got no problem with the 70 weeks being literal. But once more, if somebody saw it a different way, it’s not one of those things I could easily get excited about.
SPEAKER 03 :
It would get rid of that awkwardness of stretching it out to the stoning of Stevens or to 70 AD or… or either 2,000 plus year gap. Yeah, if you make it a literal 70 weeks, you do have to explain.
SPEAKER 08 :
what happened to the last three and a half years after Messiah was crucified? And you’re right, some people would suggest that takes us up to the stoning of Stephen or to the conversion of Saul of Tarsus. Some might say there’s a short gap from there until the three and a half years of the Jewish war ending in 70 AD. And some people make, of course, a huge gap of 2,000 years between the 69th and the 70th week. There’s all kinds of conventions that people use for this kind of thing and some of them I think are more tolerable than others but it does create a difficulty no matter which view you take and so I guess the question would be which difficulty are you willing to live with right okay okay Ken thanks for your call good talking to you I appreciate your call today alright our next caller is Dale from Oregon and we’re going to be taking a break at the bottom of the hour if we have to interrupt we’ll take you again at the beginning of the second half hour but go ahead
SPEAKER 11 :
Okay. Hi, Steve. Your earlier conversations were on divorce. I have a question on the other side. What are the implications in marriage as far as the need for a state-approved document, or can you just take your vows before God to be married?
SPEAKER 08 :
Well, first of all, the Bible does not require a state document for marriage at all. And I’ve often thought that it was a mistake that the church made in joining itself with state power to allow the state to license marriages and divorces for the simple reason that, of course, the state back then understood what marriage and divorce was back in the English common law. Nowadays, the state has no idea what marriage is. Obviously, they’ll marry people of the same sex. They’ll marry people who have been wrongfully divorced. They’ll marry anyone who wants to be married, frankly, nowadays. And they’ll grant divorces to anyone who wants to be divorced. So, in other words, the state doesn’t have the competence to license marriages and divorces, and they’ve proven it by not even knowing who they should marry or who they should divorce. However, I don’t think it’s wrong to get a state license if you get married, but the Bible does not require it. The Bible does not require that the state be involved at all in marriage. Some people choose it because they feel there’s some kind of legal protection, but the state won’t protect it. The state does not protect marriage. And so, you know, in biblical times, people not married by the state, they were married by the community, by their parents. The parents of the bride and the parents of the groom would marry. agree to the marriage and they’d have a public ceremony with the whole village or their friends. I think marriages should be, uh, witnessed preferably by the entire families of the couple, maybe even by the whole church. Uh, but I don’t think that the state has to be allowed involved in the situation. Uh, all right. Uh, we’re going to be taking a break in about a minute. I thought, uh, maybe, uh, okay. I’ve got a few seconds before the music starts playing. Um, Some of the stations that carry this program take only the first half hour, but we do go on for an hour. And if you’re listening to a station that drops the second half hour, you can still hear it if you go online at our website, thenarrowpath.com. Welcome back to the Narrow Path Radio Broadcast. And this is me live. Yeah, so why did you have to listen to me record it for the first half hour? Well, there’s a reason for that. I’m in Wisconsin now, and I’m going to be here tomorrow, too. And we have been looking all over for a way to hook up to the Internet. And we live for an hour or so. before the program and didn’t find it. But then once the program began and we were playing a recorded show, we did manage to do so. So now we’re going to be able to take your calls live, which we were not doing for the past half hour. So if you want to call in with your questions, the number to call is 844-484-5737. That’s 844-484-5737. If you’d like to call in with any questions from the Bible or of course, disagreements with the host on anything, you’re welcome to do so. And so I’m just going to go to the phones. I’ve never really broken in in the middle of the show before. But we are live now. So if you want to call in, feel free to do so. Mike from New Brighton, Minnesota. Welcome to The Narrow Path.
SPEAKER 12 :
Yes. Hi. Hi. I really enjoy your ministry. My question is, and probably seems unusual, but can a parent, a mother, a father, pray for their children so that, say, what happened was when you talked about Job, this is what reminded me this, because I’ve thought about this for years since I’ve grown up as my father was a minister, is that Could a mother and father pray for their children, and if their children died like in Job, that their children could still go to heaven, that they could intercede for their children? Does that make sense to you at all?
SPEAKER 08 :
Oh, it makes sense. I understand the question very well. The answer is a hard one to give. The Bible does not give us any actual encouragement. that our prayers for people who have already died will have an impact on them. Now, I just say it doesn’t give us any encouragement about it. It doesn’t say that they won’t. Some people, you know, Catholics, of course, think that people who don’t go to heaven when they die usually go to purgatory and that you can pray to shorten the time they spend there and then they go to heaven. That’s not taught in the Bible. And there’s other people who believe that, you know, you just shouldn’t pray for them at all. which is kind of hard not to do at times. I know I lost a wife years ago, and it’s awfully hard. And friends, when friends say, I know it’s just kind of natural when you’re talking to God, you know, to mention them and say, you know, I don’t know, just what comes out of your heart. There’s no promise from God, though, that when someone has died, that your prayers will have any impact on them. Now, if your children died unbelievers, the Bible also does not say, that they have no further chance to come to Christ. The Bible doesn’t say that they do either. This is an area where the Bible simply does not give us information. We can hope, in the mercy of God, that since he’s not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance, that his attitude about that doesn’t change after they die. If he sees that they, let’s just say, if he sees that they would have received him had there been some other you know, pressure on them in some way, but they just didn’t have time. I don’t know. I don’t know what God will do. I do know that God wants everyone to be saved. That’s not a guarantee that everyone will be. But it does raise questions why God would cut off the opportunity for repentance at death. And there’s many people… C.S. Lewis was one of them, and there’s many evangelicals who believe that after a person has died, it may be that if they – God knows. God may know there’s a reason to give them another chance. I don’t know whether it is or not. So you’re asking about something we don’t have any direct information in the Bible about, and I’ve never encouraged anyone to pray for the dead before. And John doesn’t either. You know, John in 1 John chapter 5 says, if you see your brothers, see a man sin unto death, which I believe means until they die, then he said, I don’t say to pray for him. He doesn’t say not to. He just said, I don’t say to. So he kind of leaves it ambiguous. It might even be that John, because we have no information about it, didn’t feel like he could commit himself to whether that would work or not. In any case, I understand where your heart’s at. I can tell that you’re an older man and you apparently have lost some children. I’ve lost loved ones, too. But all I can say is just commit them to the mercy of God. And just know that God is more concerned about their souls than even you are. And just leave it to God to settle things as he will, because he’ll always settle things in the most just way. And his justice is always mixed with mercy, too. So we could just I would just commit them to God since they’re out of our out of your range now. But as far as whether the Bible says you can do that or the Bible says that’ll work, I’m afraid the Bible doesn’t say that anywhere. But that doesn’t mean God isn’t merciful even after people have died sometimes. We just don’t know.
SPEAKER 12 :
You’re not listening to me. I don’t mean after they’ve died. I mean, say you have an 8-year-old, a 10-year-old, and you intercede for them, you pray for them, and then you get an automobile accident and they die. Could, by interceding for them… and praying for them before they died.
SPEAKER 08 :
I see. So you’re not talking about praying for them after they died, but you prayed for them before they died and then they did. Well, again, the same thing. My answer would be the same. And it’s the same issue to me. I mean, the question is whether people can repent after they’ve died. Whether you prayed for them before they died or after they died or whatever. The issue is whether people have opportunity to repent after they die, if they died without Christ. And the answer is the Bible is not clear on that. And that’s what, as I was saying, I did understand your question a little differently, but the answer would be the same for both situations. So I’m sorry, I can’t give you any more. Thank you for taking my question. All right, Mike. God bless you. Another Mike. Michael from Inglewood, California is next. Michael, welcome.
SPEAKER 07 :
Hi, Steve. I was like, man, I missed the Zoom last night and you’re not on today. But I’m calling because your first call, well, the recorded call, you mentioned the Jews going back to Egypt. And that was a question I’ve had for a while. I know Jeroboam went back. He fled because Solomon was trying to kill him. And I know Mary and Joseph fled there. But my question is, except for safety reasons, why and how did Jews flee to Egypt and after the Exodus?
SPEAKER 08 :
Oh, well, lots of things happened after the Exodus. The Jews were scattered from their land in many directions. When Alexander the Great conquered the whole region, Exodus came under Alexander’s control and therefore became part of the Greek dominions. And it was ruled by kings named the Ptolemies, and they were very kind to the Jews. there were many Jews who were there simply because of the exile. But I think even more Jews moved there. They had a very large population in Alexandria, Egypt, of Jews in the time of Christ because the Ptolemies in Egypt had been very kind to them. And, you know, the Jews, of course, at that time were all over the world. And they hadn’t gone deliberately back from, you know, like from Israel back to Egypt directly. It’s more that they were scattered from Israel into Babylonian empire regions, probably including Egypt. And then they were conquered there by the Persians and then by the Greeks and so forth. And so Jews moved around all over the place. They weren’t in their homeland much of that time. Though even when they were back in their homeland, even after Zerubbabel and others went back and reestablished Israel, some of the Jews didn’t go back. They just stayed where they were. So, I mean, ever since the exile in Babylon, the Jews might have had any reason for being in Egypt. They might have remained there because that’s where they had been scattered to. They might have moved there during hard times in Israel because of the persecution from the Seleucids in Syria that were coming down against them. They might have gone down to Egypt because of the persecution. sympathy Egyptians seem to treat them with. They might have had family down there from those incidents and moved on. So I don’t really know. I don’t know why any given Jew would have gone down there, but there were lots of Jews in Egypt in those days. All right, let’s talk to Don from Vancouver, Washington. Hi, Don.
SPEAKER 13 :
Yeah, a question for you here. Long time no call, by the way. But a question, until recently I was a skeptic about near-death experiences. But reading a lot of material, including a lot of Christian material, it does appear there’s something there. And so that’s not my question. My question would be, though, what happens? So many of the near-death experiences had people who were not Christian. I mean, they were perhaps nice people and everything, but no reason to think they were Christians. Do you think that the NDEs are invalid as far as indicating what happens, or do you think there might be something different going on with nonbelievers? How do you feel about that?
SPEAKER 08 :
Well, I try to not have an opinion about it because I don’t know of anything in the Bible that would direct us on it, and I, of course, have not done the studies myself. I’ve been aware of NDEs since the 80s, I guess, when some popular books, secular books, came out.
SPEAKER 13 :
Right, and I used to, I read those too, but there seemed to be so few of them back then, and I thought these were kooks and everything, and Because it didn’t seem logical that a person would, except in a few exceptions, go to heaven and then come back or, you know, wherever they went anyway.
SPEAKER 08 :
Yeah. Well, you know, most of them that I’ve heard of, let’s say, let’s talk about non-Christians who’ve died and then they’ve been resuscitated. They come back and they say they felt they left their body and they died. were kind of sensed they were going through a tunnel toward a light, and they felt warm and accepted and things like that. This is the kind of stuff you hear. And then eventually they, for whatever reason, they came back into their bodies, and so they report these things. You know, I don’t know if these people were really dead or not. I mean, of course, if we count death to be simply the absence of vital signs, some of these people apparently were. but we don’t know if the spirit leaves the body the instant the vital signs end. We don’t know if there’s any awareness of things when the breathing stops and the brain is oxygen deprived. I don’t know those kinds of things. I don’t know how to interpret their experiences. And I simply wouldn’t look to those things to make decisions about what I think about theological subjects. for the simple reason that Hindus have interesting experiences too, not near-death experiences per se, but, I mean, they have visions. There’s people who astral project, and they feel like they’re leaving their bodies, not in death, but as a spiritual exercise and so forth. I can’t really say what’s going on in all these cases. Certainly one case, one possibility, is it’s demonic, that because the demons want to deceive them, they give them these kinds of visions because the devil can give visions just like God can. Yeah, so that they’d come back and deceive people about it. Or it may be a merely physiological phenomenon. We don’t understand what happens with the mind when the brain stops working. I consider the mind to be a non-material soul. The brain is an organ of the body. But when the brain and the mind are released from each other at death, I don’t know what goes on with the soul. It’s even possible that they are taken through some tunnel to some light place where they will briefly encounter God, but they come back to life before they actually face judgment of any kind. So these are all just thoughts off the top of my head. I don’t have any real insight into that.
SPEAKER 13 :
Okay. Well, I’m the same place I was, but that was a good point about the demons. That is a very good, real possibility.
SPEAKER 08 :
All right, Don. Sorry, I can’t help you on that.
SPEAKER 13 :
Oh, that’s fine. Thank you, Steve.
SPEAKER 08 :
All right. Bye now. Kevin in Northford, Connecticut. Welcome to The Narrow Path.
SPEAKER 10 :
Hi, Steve. Yes, this is Kevin from Northford, Connecticut. Thank you for taking my call. I’ve spoken to you a few times in the past, over the past couple of years, And this morning I was reading Genesis, oh gosh, 45, chapter 45, I think it is, or it’s 44. and I’ve read it before maybe four or five times in the course of my life, and it hit me for the first time in a new way. It’s like I saw something different there that kind of like messed with my theology, and I started thinking, who could answer this? I didn’t feel like I knew any pastor that I would feel confident would be able to answer it accurately.
SPEAKER 08 :
What is the issue?
SPEAKER 10 :
Whatever reason, you popped into my head. I’m just going to take that as a signal from the Holy Spirit that I should call you about that. And so I got through to you today. And the thing of it is that I always thought that belief somehow, I don’t know where I got this, that God doesn’t violate people’s free will. And so that when Joseph, God wanted Joseph to be in Egypt to do all the good things that he did to protect the Jews and help them. But he didn’t. He let the evil of his brothers put him there because he won’t violate people’s free will. He won’t force people to keep people from committing sins. But when I read it today, it really stuck out in my head. Joseph said that God did this. You didn’t. He said to his brothers, you didn’t do this. God did this.
SPEAKER 08 :
He said, God sent me before you.
SPEAKER 10 :
Yeah, he said, don’t grieve, something like that. And And it also seemed to imply today for some reason I got the feeling that they had no culpability. They didn’t commit any sin because of that, and they didn’t do anything wrong. And it’s just kind of like messing with my theology about I always thought that Joseph ended up here because they were doing evil, but God used the dreams to turn it into something good. I always looked at it as an Old Testament example of Romans 8.28, all things work together for the good of those who love God and are called according to his purpose. But I don’t know, the way I read it today, for the first time, like I told you, I’ve read it at least four or five times before in my life.
SPEAKER 08 :
Well, when Joseph told him not to grieve, I think he was just saying, don’t think I’m angry at you. I’m not. You know, he’s not saying they didn’t do anything wrong. In fact, in chapter 15, verse 20 says, as for you, you intended evil against me. Well, that’s bad. They’re guilty of that.
SPEAKER 10 :
I didn’t get there yet, but I did read that in the past, but I’m going to read that soon.
SPEAKER 08 :
Chapter 50, verse 20, he says, You intended evil against me, but God meant it for good. So he sees both aspects. They had evil intentions, and for those, of course, they’ll have to answer to God.
SPEAKER 10 :
And I think that’s the piece that I probably retained in the past, because, yeah, that kind of like fits in with the way I understood things.
SPEAKER 08 :
Well, it’s like, you know, Judas and Caiaphas and Sanhedrin, they intended evil against Jesus, but God meant it for good because God wanted Jesus to go to the cross and save the world. But that doesn’t let them off the hook. You know, I mean, virtually, it’s like in Isaiah chapter 10, when God is saying that God’s going to bring the Assyrians down to judge Israel. and they’re going to wipe them out. Now he says, but they don’t intend that, what I’m thinking of. They just want to take spoil. They want to just do harm. He’s saying, I’m using them. He said, I’m using them like a carpenter uses a saw or an axe. They’re a tool in my hand. He said, they can’t boast in what they accomplish when they’re just a tool in my hand. But they don’t see themselves as a tool in my hand. They’re not doing this to out of a heart to want to do the will of God. They’re doing this out of their own evil motives. So, I mean, what the Bible teaches is, again and again, God, he sees people who want to do evil things to other people, and he sometimes prevents them. Other times he doesn’t prevent them, and he lets them do it because he wants the thing to be done. It doesn’t mean that they’re doing God’s will for their life, but by doing what they want, They’re carrying out God’s larger plan. And if they hadn’t done it, someone else would have. So, I mean, it says in Psalm over in. Over in Acts chapter 2, when Peter is preaching his first sermon, he says that by the predetermined counsel of God, they had delivered Jesus, or God had delivered him to be killed by the Jews. And he delivered Jesus to them. Well, there were earlier times in Jesus’ life these same people tried to kill him and he wouldn’t let them. This time he did. He let them do it. Now, God’s not responsible for their murderous intentions. They They came up with those. God didn’t put that in them. But God knew very well that they were full of those intentions. And so he just said, okay, I’m not going to protect Jesus from you because I want this thing to happen. But the fact that you are bringing about some plan that is my plan doesn’t mean that you aren’t responsible for the evil you choose because I didn’t put that in you. You did that. So I think that’s the same way that Joseph was looking at things in terms of his brothers doing bad. They did bad. But God could use it for good, as he always can. Tom from Lewiston, Maine. Welcome to The Narrow Path. Thanks for calling.
SPEAKER 14 :
Hi, Steve. I hope your debate goes very well for you. Thank you. My question, and this is one of the hardest things I’ve dealt with as a New Testament believer. You know, I’m on this side of the cross, so to speak. But how does a person understand… The principles and everything in between the Newt and the Old Testament, you know, like people, you’ll hear them say, well, I’m blessed going in, blessed going out. And, you know, when pastors teach on the tithe, they bring up Malachi, you know. But Malachi 1.1 says the burden of the word of the Lord to Israel. Well, I’m not Israel, you know.
SPEAKER 04 :
You’re right.
SPEAKER 14 :
But so is there some kind of a template or, you know, how do you – understand and meditate and read the Old Testament and, you know, understand how does that apply to me today because I’m a believer. I came into this thing after the resurrection.
SPEAKER 08 :
Right. Well, the template is the template of the Old Covenant and the New Covenant. God’s dealing with people is in terms of covenants. which are like contracts, and God made a contract or a covenant with the nation of Israel at Mount Sinai. He did not make that with anyone else, just the people who came out of Egypt. In fact, he says, I brought you out of Egypt on eagle’s wings, and now here’s my instructions to you. So the people that God brought out of Egypt were formed into a nation under a covenant God made with them at Mount Sinai. covenants have stipulations, commands, things that the parties in covenant promise to do for each other and are required to do for each other. And, of course, it’s like when you get married, that’s a covenant. You promise to be faithful. You promise to do certain things. And your wife, when she marries you, makes those promises too. And that means that she has privileges that you have promised to her and you have obligations in regard to them. And on the other side, she has obligations that are your privileges that she’s promised. That’s what a covenant is. Now, God made promises to Israel saying, you know, if you do these things that I’m going to require of you, I’ll do some things that I’ve never done for anyone else in the whole world. You’ll be a special nation to me, a unique people to me. And so, you know, the blessings and so forth and the curses that are associated with that are part of that covenant. And yet Jeremiah pointed out in Jeremiah 31 that there would come a time when God would make a different covenant, a new covenant, and it would be different. He said, it’s not like the covenant I made with them when I brought them out of Egypt. This new covenant is the covenant that Jesus made. And ever since Jesus made this new covenant with his disciples in the upper room, that’s the covenant that people relate to God through. It says in Hebrews that the two covenants don’t exist simultaneously. The coming of the new covenant has rendered the first one old and obsolete. So, you know, you’re not going to have two marriages, two different people at the same time. And God doesn’t have two covenant people at the same time. In the old covenant, Israel was his covenant people. In the new covenant, whoever is in Christ is. Now, the promises that God made to the Israelites do not pass, you know, automatically over to the new covenant. Some of them may, if they’re repeated, and some of them may not. Or if they simply are a reflection of God’s general character, he doesn’t change. So God does love his people. God does care for his people. He did in the Old Testament. He does now. So we can see examples of that care in the Old Testament. We can say, hey, that’s my dad. That’s God who I worship. He takes care of me too. When it comes to things like tithing, tithing was commanded in Israel, but it wasn’t commanded to us, as you pointed out. Malachi chapter 3 is not written to New Testament people. It’s written to Old Testament people. The purpose of the tithe was actually to support the Levites and the priesthood, which was the tabernacle system, which was the religious order of the Old Covenant. We don’t have that. We’re not in the Old Covenant. We don’t have Levites and priesthoods to support. And so that was never included in the New Covenant. What you need to, I think, understand is if you read the New Testament, what Jesus taught his disciples and what the apostles said in their writings apply to you. If you’re a Christian, you’re under the New Covenant. Now, when you read the Old Covenant. you need to ask yourself sometimes, is this a command that just belongs to the Old Covenant and therefore only to Israel? Is this a promise that only applies to Israel? I mean, when God spoke to Abraham, he said he’d make him a father of many nations or father of a multitude. Well, that’s not a promise to me. When God made a promise to one person, it doesn’t mean that everyone has that same promise given to them. Likewise, when God said, I’m going to give you the land of Canaan, when he said that to Israel, that was part of the covenant. Of course, he said it would be conditional. He said, if you obey me, you can keep it. If you don’t, I’m going to drive you out of it. Now, that has nothing to do with North America or modern nations. You know, there’s no nation in the world, no secular nation that’s in covenant with God or that he’s promised the land they’re in to them. So we can’t just, you know, when God says, you know, I’m going to give you this land forever, we can’t, as Americans, we say, hey, I’m a Christian. God’s going to give me this land forever for all generations. What land? The land I’m in? That’s not talking about that. You just have to take things in their context. and realize that there are promises that God made to the nation of Israel that apply to them as a nation under that covenant. Now that covenant is over. So those promises are obsolete now. The only promises God has for us now are those given in Christ. And, you know, it says in the Old Testament there’d be a lot of blessings that God would give Israel, but they were all natural blessings. He doesn’t promise them eternal life or anything like that. He promises them land, long life. Good crops, you know, fertile wives and livestock are better fertile. Prosperity, basically. Health and prosperity are pretty much what he promised Israel because they were an earthly nation and their concerns were earthly. They knew nothing about heaven. He didn’t tell them anything about that. But in the New Testament, Ephesians 1.3 says that we have been received… Heavenly blessings. God’s blessed us with all spiritual blessings in the heavenly places in Christ. So our blessings are not, he hasn’t promised to make us rich. He hasn’t promised that we would never get sick. He hasn’t promised that we’ll never be invaded by enemies. And no matter how good we are, those are not the promises related to the new covenant. On the other hand, we can always pray for things. I mean, whatever we should desire that God would do, we can pray for. And if it’s his will, he can answer those prayers. We can ask him to do things for us that he promised he would do for Israel under the old covenant. But we don’t have a promise that he will, but there’s nothing to prevent us from asking. He might do it. God can do whatever he wants in response to his children’s requests. But it is true that some people take statements that clearly were just applied to Israel in the Old Covenant, and they act as if we’re still under the Old Covenant, still, you know, those requirements and promises belong to us. No, there’s better ones, better promises and better requirements of us. It says in Hebrews chapter 8 that Jesus became the mediator of a new covenant which is based upon better promises, the writer of Hebrews says. The promises of the new covenant are better, so we shouldn’t. People sometimes want the covenant blessings of the old covenant. Well, why? We’ve got better ones now, and it’s not made to us. Listen, I’m going to be able to do the show live tomorrow, it looks like. I wasn’t sure when I couldn’t hook up today. I thought maybe I won’t be able to tomorrow because I’m in the same place. But we got hooked up finally, and so… We should be able to do the program live tomorrow. Also, my debate is tomorrow evening with Joel Richardson on the millennial question. There will be the possibility of streaming that from YouTube. Go to our website, thenarrowpath.com. Look under announcements. It will show how to stream that debate tomorrow night. Also, give you any other information you want, like if you want to donate, tell you how to do that. You’re listening to The Narrow Path. Our website is thenarrowpath.com. Thanks for joining us. Let’s talk again tomorrow.
