[Music] Welcome to Call to Freedom with Barber Carmac. This is Jimmy Lakey and I’m delighted that you are joining us for this half hour. You can reach Call to Freedom at box 370-367 Denver, Colorado, 802-37 or by going to the website at www.freedomstreet.org. If you want to leave a message or order a word-powered daily reading Bible Guide or a Freedom Street Express newsletter, you can call us toll-free at 1-877-917-7256 and leave your name and address including your zip code. If you want to talk to Barbara right now, she is expecting your call. You may call that same toll-free number 1-877-917-7256 to speak to her. And now let’s join Barbara in the studio. Welcome to Call to Freedom. I’m so glad you joined me today and I’ve got two very special people in the studio with me. I want you to know how deeply God desires to bless you. As you’re listening today or if it’s in the evening and you’re listening at night, he wants to bless you. His love towards you is unconditional. His promises are infallible and the good things he has planned for you are unstoppable. I want you to know that. All things work together for you, my dear friend, because he loves you and he’s called you to a purpose that is beyond your own understanding. So you’ve got to follow him and trust him. Oh, you are blessed to dispense for in him. You live and move and have your being. I want to welcome Matthew and Kimberly DuWell. It’s just such a pleasure to have you in the studio. Well, it’s great to be here. Finally, all the way from Oklahoma. Oklahoma, yes. We did just get running water down there. In this case, people want to know. You like to talk about that. Yes. It’s a really old joke. Two Oakes from Broken Arrow. Yes. It’s a beautiful state. I don’t talk about that enough. But Oklahoma really is very beautiful. It’s just kind of tough to weather the summers. But I’ve noticed in the last month, you’ve had higher temperatures here than we have had in Tulsa and Broken Arrow. Yes. I feel very blessed. More important than the topography or the geography are the beautiful people. They’re so genuine and friendly. I think you’re at the edge of that southern graciousness that’s in the southern states of the United States. Oklahoma is very friendly. It is in very spiritually diverse. I guess we should say it’s over 600 churches in the Tulsa market. They say we are the Bible buckle of it. Oh, buckle. We have lots of universities there. Oh, are you? Yes. So it’s very free to talk about the Lord there and almost take it for granted in a way seriously. Yes. We can be in restaurants and just pray for you. I’ll talk to you. I’ll talk to you about Jesus right away. Or I remember when we were getting groceries for you and your roommate, John and I were walking down the aisle. He was filling that grocery basket. He was really full and the music, Amy Grant, was really good. The music going on up and down the aisles, John said, I can’t believe this is Christian music. We have dealerships there that play Christian music and it’s their culture. That’s great. That’s great. And they’re not preachy about it. If you get hired there, that’s the culture. It’s really amazing. That’s going to be here. That’s marvelous. Well, I wanted to talk a little bit today about your marriage union because it has been quite unorthodox. As a mother looking on the scene for 31 years, it’s just been very unusual. It may not have been a lovely, dovey kind of a union, but your 31 year marriage has the only words I can think of are endurance and perseverance. And the respect that has grown for one another. Nothing has endured me. It’s good. No, I think another word would be peculiar. That’s a good word to describe. As I watched you in the last two days working in my yard and cleaning up my yard, thank goodness. Thank you, Lord. I’ve noticed a cooperation between the two of you and a respect. And I’m blessed by that because there have been real challenges in your marriage in the 31 years. You getting into a vocation in which you were an apprentice, apprentice to a man who was very difficult to work for. And you were faithful. You were submissive to him until he retired. And then you started your own business. And then Kimberly, homeschooling four children at different levels. You had so many different age levels there in your home. So how do you start here for half an hour or 20 minutes left? You know, I think what is interesting for us when we’re telling our story to each other. And just saying, wow, how did we walk through all of this? We kind of lived separate lives. You were so busy. Yeah, I was absolutely a workaholic. Yes, yes. And I didn’t like confrontation. And I liked feeling like, what could I do to make myself feel better because I didn’t. So I go work because work gave me satisfaction. I grew up on a farm. And so I’m a farm boy and just ingrained with a lot of chores and things like that. So work was all I knew. And then really to not, you know, it’s kind of like on the farm, the men go out work. And they don’t think the women are working. Well, you don’t see the work that’s going on to prepare the meals and to take care of the kids. And to do the grocery shopping. You don’t really see that as work when you’re on a farm. You know, the men have a different definition of work. So then we were coming together trying to blend all that. So when I was working all the time, quote, I got to provide for the family. Yet, you know, the majority load was on her with four kids and everything that we’re doing for homeschool. It, it, there wasn’t a lot of us. It was unity. So you could say, I think we say to each other, it was really broken. We were surviving. We were just surviving those years. Going through the motions. And you, you’re, you are an example of millions of couples in the United States here right now. You really are because they don’t mention it. They look like a good marriage. And they’re raising their children and they’re going to church and they’re doing all the things they need to do to look good. I think every relationship has something between it that you’re just kind of like, okay, we’re, we’re trying to get through this. And, and there might be mistrust. There might be betrayal. There might be all kinds of issues that are just kind of underneath, you know, the surface. It’s hard to talk about every single thing. And trust that the person you’re talking to is really revealing truth with authenticity. Yes. And you both, both of you came from divorced situations. Mm-hmm. Matthew, you’ve been divorced. It didn’t cumbersly. You were divorced. And then you decide to come back to talk to Broken Arrow and, and finish your 31 years away from mom. Yeah, well, that wasn’t the initial plan. No, it wasn’t. But you, you were sitting, I think you were sitting in church in 1992 and in church and, you, you, were you sitting next to each other or in a row? Oh, I remember you were saying you were sitting in a row of young people who had, it was the D row because we were all divorced. No, divorce, row. And so we’d hear a message on divorce. We’d all get each other. Oh, okay. We’re okay. Okay. Yes, we are. God is with us. Yes. So she sang a song. I, you know, he’ll do it again. And I just went up and complimented her afterwards and she was kind and said, “Oh, thank you.” And what she says today is, “The Lord.” This is the Lord ministering to me. Yeah. Then you asked my name because that’s what you do. And she goes, “I know you’re family.” Yeah, when you said Matt, “Do well.” I was like, “Okay, I would never would have recognized you.” She had been here since we had seen each other. In fact, we were talking to Barbara Wells and their daughters used to stay at your mom and that’s how she had stayed in my brother, and I’m gonna have a little bugbed. That’s right when we were singing, yes. Yeah, that was 12. We were very young. So I didn’t recognize you and I never would have known it was you. Right. Yeah. But that was fun. When you tell me that you’re Matt Duwell, I’m like, I know you. I know you’re a paradise. I did what’s funny as we get to talk a little bit. She seemed to know more about the Duwell, and I did it. I’m like, wow. Really? That’s interesting. Okay. Yeah. So, yeah, that’s how it started out. And it just seemed like such confirmation at the time because we were in a completely different state than when we knew each other as children. So I knew that that was the Lord. And it was very soon after that I didn’t think it was God anymore. Or if it was God, then he made a mistake. God made a mistake. Okay. I did not listen correctly. And, you know, we do. We get to that place where we forget that we’re in a really big story. It’s his story. His story, his story. We like to say that. Yeah. And, you know, I stopped trusting that God was in it. And it just, it became some chaos and it was hard. It was a, but because we had both been through divorce, we did not want to divorce again because that doesn’t seem to be the answer. And especially with all the confirmations up front, you know. So I personally just sat with the Lord and said, okay, you gave so many signs in the beginning that were confirming, I believe you are in this, but this is hard now what. And what the next thing was was for children. I just stayed very busy, which really created more distance between Matthew and I. You did. Right. So I did the homeschooling and was very involved with the children while he was taking care of the business and a lot of distance there. So I was reading from Jeremiah 10, 23. And I do like the message translation. Do you want to reach out? So I’m going to start with 23 there that says, I know God that mere mortals can run their own lives that men and women don’t have what it takes to take charge of life. So correct us, God as you see best. Wow. I love that. It says in the Tanakh that man’s road is not his own to choose, that man as he walks cannot direct his own steps. So I know God that mere mortals can’t run their own lives. I get that. And so you need to step in and do what you do best. And sometimes that’s taking things apart. You were just letting me know that there’s a certain place that has needed machines. You’ve been delivering machines to them and they keep breaking down. Right. So you took them a brand new machine. Broke down. And it broke down. So we have to look at. Okay. Operator error. Or, you know, and isn’t that, isn’t that analogy for us? Yeah. Operator errors within ourselves. Exactly. In our marriage, we had operator error on both sides and we were damaging the machine. We were damaging the story. And so sometimes when you get in there to fix the story, things have to really come apart. And that’s right. You dig into a machine and you’re just taking parts out. You’re taking the cover off. You are just really stripping it. And that’s a good thing. It doesn’t feel good, but it is a good thing. And we can’t go with our feelings in those moments when we feel like we’re being stripped and shaken down. We can’t go with our feelings on that. We can trust God and say, we know you’re in this. We know you’re doing something good. That’s right. And this journey that you were on, even though you were individuals and you were doing separate things in your family, we know that God is getting to the heart of the matter with your hearts. And that he’s going to come in different ways because he knows each of you in a different way and each of you operate in a different way. So God had a plan and he had some work to do to bring you together. And he’s going to always work his plan. He is. Yes. I know the plans I have for you. Yes. But he’s very patient and very kind and full of grace and mercy. And we used to hear somebody say, if plan A didn’t work out, you just do plan A again. There’s not a BC and D with the Lord. It’s just, it may not be exactly. And then you get around to his plan later because I think pride, we could talk about pride here. You mentioned earlier when this show started, how we were actually getting along and we work well together. That’s been a long journey because again, a farm boy, I had to certain ways. Of doing things. Understanding how she had a certain way of doing things. But also because I was non-confrontational, I just went along with certain things. And so maybe I wouldn’t really express myself or really share this is a way I like it. Well, after years and years of accumulating that and then starting to work together, my way of coming out would come out. In her way of like, you haven’t expressed that to me before. And so working together has gotten harder and harder until it just got to a spot where. Probably just let in about the 31 years that you’ve been married, probably just the last three or four years. I would say the turning point was when we went to Israel together. And I got really sick on that trip. I don’t get sick. I’m really not one that goes down. And real quick, though, just to insert in there, back in 19 because I thought it was so bad and this wasn’t what God wanted. So I did. I filed for divorce after 25, 26 years. I filed. Okay. What was I thinking? Well, you are like a majority of the people. You were talking about plan A, plan B, plan C. You go back to plan A. And a lot of people take the plan B and the plan C and just get out of there, get out of the whole marriage. Yeah, what’s fun and I understood your heart there is when we do that as human beings, when it feels like even if you’re looking back on it now and it feels like a mistake, like you made a mistake to file for divorce or that’s still plan A for God. And God working and it. Yes. Because that’s what really shook me up. Okay, for a lack of better term, I went through a shredding opportunity with God, but I allowed myself. I said, yes, Lord, that took four years of complete separation with coming back together. But what was so amazing is two years ago, oh, a year and a half ago coming up on two years, we actually had the opportunity, even though we were still separated to go to Israel together on a 12 day trip. It was because of Levi’s class. Right. What an opportunity. And I go back to Romans 828, all things, even the divorce is the failures, the mistakes, all things work together for good to the rest of God. So then. So we’re in Israel together and we’re in the same room together for the first time in many, many years and that’s God. And yeah, and I got sick and I couldn’t sleep when it hit my sinuses and I couldn’t breathe. And if I can’t breathe, I can’t sleep, you know. And Kimberly’s one said, not complaining, everything is fine. But when she was grabbing my arm saying, hey, this is what I need. I just remember you asking, are you okay? And I said, I need someone to pray for me and I’m not asking you, I don’t want to put that pressure on you. But I’ve got to just get up and possibly start contacting people back home and just ask for prayer, but you start to pray. And it turned into a very long prayer. It wasn’t just prayer for my health. It turned into prayer for our marriage and prayer for our children and prayer for our family and prayer for the business and prayer over our church and prayer over our United States and prayer over Israel. I mean, it just turned into a really long prayer. That’s the first time that I remember ever being in prayer together as a couple. And being in a dream. Unfortunately, say that. But yeah. But unfortunate to say after 20 years. Well, the 30 years, 30 years. Better than never. It’s still plan A, right? Because God knows what it’s going to take every individual to strip out the damage from just being humans. And what it will take to get pride out, to get self-pity out, to get rage, to get all the junk. Yeah, that’s like you do in the trees and the bushes in my yard. You took out all the suckers, all the things that were tangled in there, all the dead little and beauty. There comes. Wow. They just look gorgeous. It’s never a waste of time. It doesn’t matter that it took 26, 27, 30 years. It does not matter. What is it to God? Right. And one of the biggest things, which is just another huge testimony, was being in Israel. But when they talk about the land of milk and honey, it’s all rock. Most of it’s rock. It’s all rock. But you’ve learned. It’s like, what is milk and honey in here? You’ve so understand that God is the rock of our lives. And he’s the rock. And there’s just something about seeing the Lord taking care of us. Well, I believe it’s the next day. It was our 30th wedding anniversary. And we were in Israel learning about the rock on our 30th. He actually even went for a camel ride. Oh, I’ve got the picture. I think I put them in the express newsletter. Yeah. Yeah. So Psalm 81, 16, says that there’s honey from the rock that God can bring honey from the rock. And that’s how He will feed His people and satisfy His people. And I think sometimes we forget that the hard things, that’s rocky things, are the things that will bring the sweetest after life. And so we’ve been through some hard stuff. That’s OK. It did what it needed to do. We stopped hanging on to control, hanging on to our own way of doing things. That’s why we can work together better now. We’ll just start laughing about our little quirks and how he might see one branch. And I see another branch that needs to be about that. Before you cut it off. Right. Right. Because I’m the one with the muscles. Yeah, that’s right. Yeah. But we also use a term which is endearing to us. We hold things loosely with the Lord and we let him have it. So any plans that we make now, we just say, OK, well, that’s a good outline. And now we’ll just let the Lord fill in details and move us away from that if we need to. We need to form another outline. So instead of being so controlling and rigid and having so many ideas that we think have to take place, being in life together and holding things loosely has drawn us closer to the Lord. It’s drawn us closer to each other. And it has produced a piece that is remarkable. We can walk in our home now. Anyone can walk in our home now and feel a tangible piece that some of them walk in and just start crying immediately. Or they just want to sit and just be there. Just sit. Yes. Little you put their feet up and go, can I stay for a while? Yeah. Yeah, it’s beautiful. Oh, that’s wonderful. I’ve watched you mature and I’ve watched it with a, you know, as a mom, I have watched you grow and mature and be the wonderful adult parents that you already are for children. And all of them are going in different directions. We are blessed. Sarah is on a plane to Hawaii where this is going. We are going to be fine problems in the management of the restaurant she works for. And Hannah and Colton have just celebrated their fourth anniversary in Fargo, North Dakota and Jonathan’s work for you. Perfectly worked out for you. And Levi is kind of working and still, yeah, gaming still and doing some things. These are amazing. What a wonderful legacy you have of your children growing up with Jesus. I guess I also just want to confess that I’m not sure how to be wonderful parents to these wonderful kids. I don’t know how to do that too for adult children. This is, you know, my first time around being a parent of adult children. And so we just pray a lot. 26, 23, 20 and 18. Yeah. We do. We pray a lot. And Sarah is soon to be 21. Correct. Next one. And that’s really a lot of times we’re like, oh, Lord, man, you say that if we put the word of God in their heart early, no matter what, will there, can they come back to the word of God? Yes. Yes. They will come back. Yes. Oh. So it’s a restoration story, really. And learning to communicate has been, that’s been an adventure. It’s gotten better. Well, I enjoy your laughter. I mean, even when you’re watching, we can laugh better now together. And it’s how we get all offended and walking off or something. It’s just getting rid of the eye, eye in your life and just getting into the other. It’s like that three letter word joy. Joy is, Jay is Jesus. Oh, is others and the why is you? Your third in line. That’s right. Yeah. And it takes sometimes a lifetime, but it’s worth it. Yes, worth it. It is. I’ve heard a number of people describe marriage as a sanctification process. That’s what it is. And that’s, I really do see that. When you get to live with somebody else, if you don’t remain really open-minded to other ways of doing life, other ways of washing dishes, other ways of moving on. Other ways or painting. And just letting go of what you think is the right way. Or hanging pictures. And I know that that is ultimately what God is wanting with each one of us for all of us to be willing to see His way and to let go of our opinions. Yes. Yeah. And I know we’re close. So this isn’t just happy, good, feel, talk here. This was years of a lot of tears, a lot of working and heartache and pain for us to sit there and testify to this. And wow, I think still the best is still we have to come. Yes. I’m so grateful that you had both a legacy of Christian parents because whether they were not perfect, whether they did right or they didn’t do right, there was prayer behind those years that you struggled. And I know that Darren and I were praying for you. Praise God to God. And I’m so grateful. Even these last 15 years I’ve been without him. You have been there for me. And as a widow and as a mother. That is really important, especially when you’re 750 miles away. You’ve come in a few hours to be here when I’ve needed you physically and spiritually. So oh, thank you so much. Any last words? I was going to read from 2 Corinthians 9. Verse 8 says, and this is the message translation, God can pour on the blessings in astonishing ways so that you’re ready for anything and everything. More than just ready, God is more than just ready to do what needs to be done. As one Psalmist puts it, he throws caution to the winds, giving to the needy in reckless abandon. And that is what he’s done for us. He threw caution to the winds and he trusted something would work out. And you know, we eventually aligned ourselves with him and said, we trust you too. We trust that you can work in this even though it doesn’t look like it’s repairable. And look, he didn’t just repair. He redeemed and restored and reclaimed. I like that you like that word Matthew’s. I do. And reclamation. And reconciliation. It’s a spirit of reconciliation around you. It’s been beautiful having you too. Well, thank you. In this year, I wish you were closer so we could do this more often. And I know that if some of you would like a CD of this program, you have loved ones that are in a situation where they might need some real advice and help from the Word of God. Just call me after the program today at 1-877-917-7256. And I’ll send you that CD. I will have to send it after next Monday. But be patient. I will be sending it to you. God bless you and keep you. Thank you, Matthew and Kimberly. Absolutely. I’m going to have you tomorrow. Yeah, we’ll talk about your business. Talk about your business. Yes. Oh, your successful business. So I want to say to all of you out there, God, nothing’s impossible with God. Nothing, nothing is too difficult for our God and our Savior. And I want to say to you the last word that we say to you on this program. Take joy. Take joy. Thank you for listening to Call to Freedom with Barbara Carmack. You may get in touch with Barbara at Call to Freedom. Box 370-367 Denver, Colorado 80237. For you may leave your message at 1-877-917-7256. Call to Freedom is a listener supported radio ministry. Barbara and her power partners invite you to come on board with us and become a network of hands holding up Call to Freedom Ministry. Power partner support call to Freedom with Prayer and Monthly Financial Support. You will be blessed supernaturally. We invite you to visit Call to Freedom’s website, www.freedomstreet.org, where you can hear Barbara’s daily radio broadcast 24 hours a day or order materials. You may share your praise reports and heart prize by mailing them to Call to Freedom. Box 370-367 Denver, Colorado 80237. For you may email us at Barbara Carmack at Freedom Street dot org. Until next time, remember Jesus loves you, Barbara loves you, and take joy. Thank you. [Music]
