This episode features a rich dialogue on biblical interpretations and theological debates. Our host, Steve Gregg, thoughtfully addresses questions about the prophecy in Hosea, bringing historical and spiritual context to light. Listeners are encouraged to ponder the influence of free will in faith and actions in the modern Christian life. As always, audience participation enriches the conversation, providing a vibrant exchange of ideas and insights on scripture’s relevance today.
SPEAKER 1 :
Thank you.
SPEAKER 03 :
Good afternoon and welcome to the Narrow Path radio broadcast. My name is Steve Gregg and we’re live for an hour each weekday afternoon to take your calls. If you have questions you’d like to call in about the Bible or the Christian faith, we’ll talk about them together. You can call in to disagree with the host if you’d like. We’ll be glad to talk to you about anything you’ve heard me say that you think isn’t quite right, and you can feel free to tell me why. I’d be glad to hear from you. As always, we encourage you if you call in with either a question or a comment that you would be succinct. For example, sometimes people call up and they haven’t really thought through exactly how to word their question, and it takes a long time. To get as many calls as possible in, I’d suggest that you be succinct. And if you’re not good at being succinct, and many people are not, myself included, then maybe you could write out your question before you get put on the air and you can just read it because that would be an easier way to make sure you don’t just ramble on. I’m the only one allowed to ramble on around here. And so the number to call is 844-484-5737. That’s 844-484-5737. Our first caller today, oh, I should mention I’m teaching in Texas all week long, this coming week and through next weekend. Tonight and tomorrow I am speaking in Coppell, Texas, and there’s information about that at our website, as there is about all the other meetings coming up. I’m speaking at the Living Water Church in Bulverde on Resurrection Morning at 1030. I’ll be speaking in that same area for the next couple days after that, Monday and Tuesday. I’ll be in the Houston area on Wednesday and Thursday, and then Friday through Sunday I’ll be back in the Dallas area. So I’m all over the place. And if you live in any of those places and want to join us, go to our website, thenarrowpath.com. I’m giving you the mailing address. I’m an old guy. I get confused a lot. The website is thenarrowpath.com. I will give the mailing address later on. Okay, thenarrowpath.com under the tab that says announcements. All right, we’re going to talk first of all to Ryan from Brighton, Michigan. Ryan, welcome to The Narrow Path. Thanks for calling.
SPEAKER 06 :
Thanks, Steve. Good afternoon. I did take the time to write up my question, so here we go. Matthew 23, 15 says, Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you travel to land and sea to win one proselyte, and when he is won, you make him twice as much a son of hell as yourselves. This one always stood out to me. I’d just like to hear your thoughts on the significance of this verse. It seems to say that man can lead other men to hell, which may… have not been their outcome otherwise if they weren’t led astray. And so it seems that the spiritual battle to bring unbelievers into the kingdom has a significant dependence on our actions and obedience as believers, that our role is quite dynamic. So I guess I’m just curious to hear your thoughts on this assessment that I just gave you and the greater meaning behind this verse. That’ll be it.
SPEAKER 03 :
Are you seeing this as something of a response against a Calvinistic idea of predestination, that everything is not really determined in advance, but rather that our actions are significant in bringing outcomes? Is that kind of where you’re coming from, or are you coming from somewhere else with the question?
SPEAKER 06 :
I do see it. I see it related to that and through that lens, but I also just see it as, I hate to put it this way, not that God depends on us, but that we are part of his plan and that, yeah, that it is up to our free will and that this is kind of, this is up for grabs, right? This is a war and we need to respond.
SPEAKER 03 :
Well, yes, I believe that God’s plan will be fulfilled even if you or I do not cooperate as we should, but it will be probably hindered or slowed down. You know, it says in 2 Peter chapter 3 that we should hasten the coming of the day of God. There’s something we should do. We’ll hasten it. We’ll bring it faster, which means there’s a project we’ve been assigned to. And the sooner we get it done, the better. And, of course, that also implies that if we don’t do it, if we’re not active and obedient, well, we may have to wait longer. So it’s not that God’s plan will not ultimately be fulfilled. There’s no possibility that he would fail because that’s his eternal purpose. But as far as our participation in it, the length of time it takes to get the job done, that does appear to be… very much on us. And if we had no responsibility in the matter, our existence is hard to explain. I mean, if God is doing something that involves people, and he certainly is, but the people don’t have any way of, whether they obey or disobey, won’t have any impact on the project, Well, that would be kind of strange. I mean, God has animals. If he made humans to be animals and just operate by instinct, he’d get his job done real quick. Actually, he complains about that in Isaiah chapter 1. He says the ox knows its owner and the donkey knows its master’s crib. But why doesn’t Israel know what they’re supposed to do? Because they’re not trying to know because God gave them the law and they didn’t obey it. But he said to the animals… They know what they’re doing. They do the right thing. And I think it’s in the eighth chapter of Jeremiah. It might be the seventh. Jeremiah says the stork and the swallow, they know their appointed times as we know that those birds migrate. He says, but my people don’t know. Don’t do what they’re supposed to do. So he’s saying animals instinctively do what God programmed them to do. People, unfortunately, don’t. which means that the birds are going to get where they’re supposed to be at the right time because they don’t have a choice in the matter. They just do what they’re instinctively made to do. We do have a choice in the matter, and therefore sometimes we may not be at the place we’re supposed to be yet because we simply have not been cooperative. So I believe that God does depend on our cooperation. However, I don’t think he’s dependent on it in the sense that, you know, if nobody cooperated, God would be high and dry and couldn’t do anything. But what he has chosen to do is through people. When he made man and woman, he said, let’s make man in our own image and let’s give him dominion over this to kind of run the place. God built it and he put it under man’s control to run it, to manage it. And, of course, a person who’s given the power and the authority to manage it is also capable of mismanaging. And so God does… Think about it. Jesus had a very short lifetime, and yet he’s the most important lifetime to ever have come onto the planet. I mean, there are people who’ve lived 80, 90 years, done tremendous things, but they didn’t accomplish what Jesus was here to accomplish. His life was the most significant of all. And yet, not only did he have a short life… He spent only three and a half years of it involved in the work he was here to do. And, you know, it seems like it might have been good for him to stay a little longer and maybe even give his disciples more training because when he left… He left everything in the hands of these 12 guys who, in some respects, had shown themselves to be bumblers. I mean, they were slow to learn things. He sometimes said, how long must I bear with you? Do you still not understand? I mean, these men were not the sharpest knives in the drawer, but they were good. They were sincere, and Jesus knew that by giving them his spirit, their obedience would get the job done that they were to do. And in that sense, God made himself vulnerable, to the obedience of people. But again, if one generation doesn’t do what God wants them to do, that doesn’t mean it won’t get done. He’ll do it through a later generation who will. Remember what Mordecai said to Esther. God may have raised you up for a time like this. The nation was in peril. She was in a position to help. And he said, if you say nothing, if you do nothing, God will have to raise up help from another place. In other words, you’re the person God has appointed, but if you renege and don’t do what you’re supposed to, God will find someone else to do it. And if one generation doesn’t carry on the work of God as much as they should, then maybe a later one will. But why should we let it be delayed when it’s in our lap? And so that’s how I see it. I think God does depend upon people.
SPEAKER 06 :
I appreciate that. I just The time is urgent, and I think we as Christians, or many at least, just often think that, you know, I’m saved, or it’s more of like a personal salvation thing. I’ve reached salvation or whatever the point might be. But, yeah, and forgetting that there’s a spiritual battle going on collectively right now and that he’s calling on us to be active, to take action now.
SPEAKER 03 :
And even the idea that I’m saved so I don’t have to worry about anyone else really misunderstands what being saved means. Because someone who would say something that or think that way, they’re thinking being saved means I’ve made my arrangements to go to heaven when I die. But that’s not what the Bible means by salvation. In the Bible, salvation is a complete restoration to a proper relationship with God, which includes going to heaven when you die. but also begins now. We have eternal life now. We’re born again now. We are a kingdom of priests now. We are a body, hands and feet of Jesus now. I mean, salvation isn’t just getting a ticket to heaven. Salvation is being properly related to God now, which is what God has made possible for us and what the gospel calls us to. Now, if I am really saved in that sense, in other words, I’m not just sitting around with a ticket to heaven in my back pocket and doing nothing. I’m not really restored to a right relationship with God because that’s not a right relationship with God. To sit around and do nothing for God when he’s got something for you to accomplish in life and you’re not doing it, that’s not a right relationship with God. I’m not sure that’s full salvation. Although I’m not saying whether it has any relevance to going to heaven or not. I don’t see the word salvation as in the Bible primarily talking about heaven or hell. I mean, that’s part of it, but… But salvation is being restored to, like the prodigal son, back into the proper relationship with his father. He was a rebel against his father. He’s now back with his father. The assumption is he’s going to be not a rebel against his father. He’s going to be a faithful, dutiful son, just like his brother had been all the time. So, you know, if you’re really saved, if you’re really in a right relationship with God, that means you’re a dutiful son and a servant and obeying him. And you won’t be just sitting around saying, well, I’m going to heaven. People who are sitting around like that maybe aren’t. I don’t know. I’m not going to judge, but just something to think about because if you’re not in a right relationship with Christ, which means you’re his servant and you’re obeying him, then I’m not sure really that there’s a promise to people like that, that they are really born again or saved. So I guess I agree with you. Thanks, Ryan. I appreciate your call. Timothy from Ontario, California. Hi, Tim. Haven’t heard from you for a while.
SPEAKER 05 :
Hey, Steve, thanks for taking my call. I want to ask you a question about Matthew 2 where he says, out of Egypt I called my son. And how he is quoting Hosea 11.1, I kind of want to play the devil’s advocate and just have you answer me on this if you could. So basically in Hosea, the passage that I referred to, Matthew, he doesn’t quote the first part of the verse which says, When Israel was a child, I loved him. He merely quotes the second part of the verse which says, Out of Egypt I called my son. So essentially Matthew is not trying to equate Israel with Jesus. He’s simply saying that Jesus is another Israelite that was called out of Egypt, and he’s another Israelite son that was called out of Egypt. So in context, the entire Hosea 11 passage is talking about God calling the nation of Israel out of Egypt, which happened in Exodus, but by quoting the first part of the verse, all Matthew is saying is that, all Matthew is doing is being careful not to confuse the two.
SPEAKER 03 :
Confuse what two?
SPEAKER 05 :
The two passages, Matthew, out of Egypt I called my son or my child, and Hosea 11.1. All he’s saying is that Jesus is just another Israelite who God saved out of Egypt, who brought out of Egypt.
SPEAKER 03 :
And who would make that argument? To my mind, it doesn’t make any sense at all. I mean, for example… There’s lots of Israelites. There’s millions of Israelites. All of them, if you go back far enough, were taken out of Egypt. Their ancestors were. And no doubt there have been many Jews, including Jesus, who made trips to Egypt and came back. I mean, Egypt was not that far from Israel, and a lot of international travel took place. So, I mean, it must not have been very uncommon for a person who’s an Israelite to go and come back from Egypt. So, I mean, I’m not really sure why that would be anything worth mentioning. If Jesus is just another Israelite who happened to spend some time in Egypt, yeah, okay. So he’s one of the many millions, probably, or thousands and thousands of whom that would be true. And why would Matthew mention that? I mean, traveling to Egypt, in fact. It didn’t make Jesus. It didn’t form him. I mean, it’s not an important part of his life unless it is, in fact, related to Hosea 11.1. Now, interestingly, Tim, I was talking to a group this morning. I talked about this very case. I don’t all the time, but it came up this morning. So we can either say Matthew said it having nothing in particular in mind, which meant that he had just a little extra ink, a little extra parchment, and wasn’t sure how to fill it up. So he mentioned some insignificant thing, not really worthy of mention, even though the gospel writers provided very little data about Jesus’ childhood, almost none. And yet he thought, well, I’ll just mention this little thing, and I’m somehow connected to Scripture. Well, how would it be connected to that Scripture if not the way that he’s seen Israel as a type of Christ? Certainly throughout the New Testament, there’s many indicators that both Jesus and the apostles saw Jesus as the antitype or the fulfillment of the type that Israel was. And that certainly looks like what Matthew is doing. In fact, it makes a heap of sense to say that it is, since Matthew’s gospel has the early career of Jesus in his childhood and youth and early manhood following some of the same patterns as Israel in the Old Testament. You know, he comes out of Egypt. As an infant, he’s tempted in the wilderness, as Israel was for 40 years. Jesus was for 40 days. This was after his baptism, which Paul likens the baptism of the passing through the Red Sea of Israel to our being baptized. So Jesus comes out of Egypt. He passes through baptism. He is tested 40 days in the wilderness, as Israel was for 40 years. I mean, it seems to me like these are deliberate. patterns. Now, it’s not that Matthew’s making it up. It’s saying that these things happened to Jesus and they’re worthy of mention because it does sort of replicate some things in the history of Israel because Jesus is the antitype. Now, I can’t think of any objection. to the suggestion that Jesus is the antitype, that Israel is the type of Christ, it certainly answers fully the question of why did Matthew quote this verse about Jesus. And any alternative, I thought you were going to play the devil’s advocate in the sense that the Jews… Of course, the Jews don’t see Israel as a type of Jesus. And therefore, they would say that Matthew is being dishonest in quoting this verse because he points out that Jesus came out of Egypt. Oh, and there’s a scripture about that, which doesn’t really talk about that. But we can hope that people won’t notice that it doesn’t. Now, I mean, I think Matthew. fully intended his audience to be aware of Hosea 11.1 and of the history of Israel coming out of Egypt and to realize that he’s saying, yeah, this happened to Jesus too, just like it happened to Israel, just like Hosea mentioned. And anyway, I’m not seeing any other way that would be significant to say, well, okay, so Jesus was a Jew. There are millions of Jews. He spent some time in Egypt and came out again. Well, probably hundreds of thousands of Jews have done that. how would that then be worthy of mention, and why would he quote that verse about it? Because quoting the verse about the Exodus certainly is not parallel to every Jew going down to Egypt and coming out again. It has almost no relevance to it at all. It would only have relevance to one particular case, and that’s the one whose life is what Israel was foreshadowing, I think.
SPEAKER 05 :
I completely agree with everything you said and pretty much shared the same advice with a friend of mine. That not only that, but it totally, I guess, disrespect and disregards everything that Matthew was trying to relate with Jesus to Israel. So, yeah.
SPEAKER 03 :
Now, your friend is a Christian? Your friend’s a Christian?
SPEAKER 05 :
Yes.
SPEAKER 03 :
So he was just trying to say that that statement in Hosea is not connected to Jesus the way that you were saying. And so he’s kind of making something up off the top of his head, which is not a very deep place to get information from. But I’ll tell you this, that if he thinks that Matthew is not seeing this as some fulfillment of a type, then does he think that Matthew misunderstood Hosea? Yes. I mean, we know that Jesus opened the apostles’ understanding so they’d understand the Scriptures, and Matthew was one of those apostles. So Jesus taught Matthew what the Scriptures mean. Who taught your friend?
SPEAKER 05 :
Yeah. Again, it was a dispensationalist pastor who was referring to my friend. And, you know, the other thing he was saying is that, well, Matthew didn’t even quote the first part of the verse when Israel was a child, I loved him. And I’m like, well, he doesn’t need to. It’s pretty obvious.
SPEAKER 03 :
Yeah, anyone who’s familiar with the second part of the verse probably was familiar with the first part of the verse. I think the Jews were more familiar with the Old Testament than many Christians are. And I don’t think, I think Matthew often quotes part of a scripture that his audience is familiar with. Just like Jesus on the cross quotes the first verse of Psalm 22, hoping that everyone will know that the rest of the psalm is about him, you know. Right. We see him do that all the time in his letters, quote a section of a verse and not the whole thing. You know, I tell this story, you might have heard it before, but When I was young in the ministry, I was traveling with another brother in the ministry, and we both had to use the restroom, but there’s only one person at a time. And so he offered to let me go first. I said, oh, thanks, you don’t need to let me go first. He said, in as much. One word, in as much. Anyone know the rest of that verse? Anyone know the rest of that verse? Inasmuch as you’ve done the felices, my brethren. He just said, inasmuch. I didn’t have to hear the rest of the verse. I knew what the verse said. You knew exactly what he meant. That’s a great point, Eve. I appreciate that. All right.
SPEAKER 05 :
I’ll let you go.
SPEAKER 03 :
Wait, wait, wait. The lines are full, but if it’s a quick one, you’ve got your foot in the door. Go ahead.
SPEAKER 05 :
Well, the question was… Basically, what does it mean in Romans 11, 28, 29 that the Jews are loved on account of the patriarchs?
SPEAKER 03 :
It doesn’t say the Jews are beloved because of the patriarchs. It says the election are. You see, most Bibles do not translate that correctly, and I would encourage anybody to look it up in the Greek, as I have done, and as I hope everyone will.
SPEAKER 05 :
As far as election is concerned, they’re loved on account of the patriarchs.
SPEAKER 03 :
In the Greek, it says… According to the gospel, they are enemies. Actually, the words they are are not there, but they’re implied. He says, according to the gospel, enemies, for your sakes. According to the election, they are beloved, for the Father’s sakes. Now, the election is a term Paul used earlier in the same chapter, in verse 7, when he said, Israel has not obtained what it sought, the election have obtained it. OK, so the election, ekloge in the Greek, is used in those two places in that chapter. And in the first place, he contrasts the ekloge, the election, from the rest of Israel. Israel has not, but the ekloge have, the election have, which means the faithful remnant have. Most of Israel has not, but the faithful remnant has. They are the ekloge. Then in verse 20, he says, according to the gospel, they are enemies. Well, that’s Israel as a whole. We know who the enemies are because they’re fighting the Christians. But he says, but according to the election, or the ekloge, they are beloved for the Father’s sake. So even though most of the nation of Israel were enemies of Paul’s, there was a faithful remnant who were not and were beloved and that God had saved them in fulfillment of his promises to their ancestors. Now, if Paul had said that all Jewish people, even Judas Iscariot and Caiaphas and Sigmund Freud and other enemies of the gospel, that all Jewish people are especially beloved for the Father’s sake. And Paul’s saying, and that’s why God’s going to save them in the end. Well, what about the Jews, the millions of Jews that have lived and died over the past 2,000 years? They had the same fathers. Were they not beloved for their father’s sake? But you see, it’s not that the Jewish race is beloved. If it was, then all the Jews who have ever lived, they had the same fathers. So if they’re beloved for the father’s sake, they should all be saved just by that. But no, it’s the believers have always been beloved. And Paul’s saying throughout chapters 9 through 11 that God has saved the believing remnant of Israel, but not the whole nation, because they are not all Israel who are of Israel.
SPEAKER 05 :
And he does say that only a remnant will be saved in that Romans passage. I think it’s in 9.
SPEAKER 03 :
Okay, Timothy. Talk to you later. God bless you, man. Love talking to you. See you soon. Bye now. Okay, let’s see here. Well, it looks like if I put Michael from Denver, who is next, on right now, we’ll have to interrupt with an upcoming break here. So I’m going to, instead of start that call, I’m going to give our bottom of the hour break at this point, and then we have another half hour coming up after that, and Michael from Denver will be our first caller in the second half hour. Yeah, if you’d like to help us stay on the air, you can write to The Narrow Path, PO Box 1730, Temecula, California. 92593. That’s the narrow path, P.O. Box 1730, Temecula, California, 92593. And you can also, of course, if you don’t want to write, you can donate through the website. But before you do that, benefit from the website. The website has like 1,500 resources you can download for free, which include verse-by-verse lectures through the whole Bible by yours truly, as well as hundreds and hundreds of topical lectures on every topic you could imagine. It also has a tab that says links and resources or something like that. And you’ll find there links to other websites that are incredibly valuable, like the Matthew713.com website, where over 25,000 of calls from former shows from The Narrow Path are categorized in a topical index. And you can look up any of 2,000 topics there. any of 25,000 calls in the past this show, you can look them up by topic, and it’ll take you directly to the calls. Tremendous resource. It’s called Matthew713.com. And there’s other resources, too, that are very valuable. One of them, OpenTheo.org, has transcripts of all of my lectures written. So, I mean, there’s all kinds of good stuff there. Try it out. Go to TheNarrowPath.com. You can donate there if you want to, though everything is free. And look under links and resources. It’s amazing the stuff that they’re including, the full version of the song that you’re listening to in the background right now. I’ll be right back after 30 seconds, and we’ll take another half hour of calls. Please stay tuned.
SPEAKER 02 :
Everyone is welcome to call the narrow path and discuss areas of disagreement with the host, but if you do so, please state your disagreements succinctly at the beginning of your call and be prepared to present your scriptural arguments when asked by the host. Don’t be disappointed if you don’t have the last word or if your call is cut shorter than you prefer. Our desire is to get as many callers on the air during the short program, so please be considerate to others.
SPEAKER 03 :
Welcome back to the Narrow Path radio broadcast. My name is Steve Gregg, and we’re live for another half hour, taking your calls. If you’d like to join us, the lines are full right now, so don’t call right now, but if you call in a few minutes, lines may open up. I’ll give you the number. 844-484-5737. That’s 844-484-5737. That’s 484-5737. And our next caller today is Michael from Denver, Colorado. Michael, welcome. Thanks for calling.
SPEAKER 01 :
Hi, Steve. Thank you so much for taking my call. It’s always such an honor to speak with you and great to talk to you again. So, yeah, I just had a quick kind of question, then I’ll take my answer off the air. So I wanted to ask you about a story I saw recently. This originally happened in the 90s, actually, but it’s recently been gaining renewed interest online. So there was a discovery by NASA that may confirm the biblical account of Jesus’s crucifixion. And Oxford University biblical historians issued a statement. They believe a lunar eclipse identified by NASA was the same written about in the Bible. They based this off of the Bible stating that the sun turning into darkness and the moon into blood was referencing events following the death of Christ. NASA’s models showed a lunar eclipse occurring on Friday, April 3rd, in the year Christ was commonly believed to be thought to be crucified. And, you know, I just wanted to kind of ask your thoughts on, you know, NASA’s calculations here. What do you think about NASA trying to measure or kind of determine the date of the crucifixion kind of based off of a lunar eclipse?
SPEAKER 03 :
Well, you know, the idea that the darkness on Friday when Jesus was on the cross, it was dark for six hours. The idea that that was a lunar eclipse was actually suggested by somebody in the second century, right? And yet another church father, I’m trying to remember which father it was, one of them answered it and said, no, it’s impossible to have a lunar eclipse at Passover. Passover is halfway through the month and the position of the moon is halfway, you know, it’s full. You can’t have a lunar eclipse at that same time. And modern Christian astronomers would say the same thing. So I have to think that the darkness was not a natural phenomenon. You know, from time to time you read fictional stories about somebody who’s caught by, you know, savages in the jungle and about to be sacrificed, but this person happens to know there’s going to be a lunar eclipse at a certain time, and so they save themselves by predicting it and it happens, and the savages who didn’t know anything about such things, you know, they let him go thinking he’s a god or something. You know, that kind of thing is the stuff of fiction stories, and one could argue, well, Jesus worked it out that he was crucified right when there was going to be that lunar eclipse because he knew about that. Now, I mean, there’s no reason to believe it’s a lunar eclipse. A lunar eclipse is not supernatural and is predictable. And it can happen at predictable times and because of the position of the sun, moon, and the earth, juxtaposition between them. that’s not really what happened here. I believe the Bible has indicated this was a supernatural darkness. And again, the time that Passover falls in the month, it’s absolutely impossible for there to be a lunar eclipse with the moon in that phase. So people have said those kind of things. Actually, for about 2,000 years, people have suggested it. scientifically it doesn’t seem to my mind possible. That’s my understanding of it. All right. Let’s talk to Drew from Post Falls, Idaho. Hi, Drew.
SPEAKER 07 :
Hi, Steve. Happy Resurrection Weekend. Thank you, Cindy. Thank you very much. In him we have life. I’ve listened to you off and on for about 15 years, and first thing, I appreciate the fact that you don’t charge anything for anything. Freely we receive and freely we give, and you’re the only person I’ve ever heard that does that, so thank you for that. Many things you’ve said I have gleaned nuggets from. One of the things that you’ve said, and again, I’ve listened for about 15 years, not 24 hours a day, obviously, but when someone asks you what it means to be a Christian, you say, at least what I’ve heard you say, and correct me if I’m wrong, you said it’s one who follows Christ. But Jesus himself said that we can’t even see the kingdom unless we’re born again, and we can’t enter the kingdom unless we’re baptized. And, of course, the kingdom is to follow the king. So I’m curious as to why you never ever have said that to any caller asking what it means to be a Christian.
SPEAKER 03 :
Well, the shortest answer, the most biblical answer, is it’s a follower of Christ. And the reason I say that is because the word Christian… is defined only one place in the Bible, and that’s Acts 11.26, where it says the disciples were first called Christians in Antioch. Now, before that, the believers in Christ, members of the body of Christ, were called the disciples. And in Acts 11.26, it simply says those same people who were called disciples now had another name given to them, the name Christian. So the word Christian… is a follower of Christ or a disciple of Christ. The word disciple suggests somebody who follows. Jesus said, if anyone will come after me, let him deny himself, take up his cross, and follow me. So it’s following Christ that describes a Christian. Now, to say that a Christian has been born again by the Spirit of God, The Christian has believed the gospel. The Christian has eternal life. The Christian is part of the body of Christ and part of the temple of the Holy Spirit, like a living stone built into a spiritual house. All those things could be said about Christians, too, but that’s not the shortest way to describe what a Christian is. So, the Bible says a great number of things about people being Christians, but… The only definition we have in the Bible of a Christian is a disciple or a follower of Christ. So that’s the easiest way to put it. I could just say a disciple of Christ, but I think that the word disciple… is less immediately understandable by a modern person. Some people, when they hear the word disciple, they may think of the apostles. They may think of some, you know, tier two level of Christian, you know, like a highly disciplined missionary type or something. Whereas, in fact, the word disciple just means, the word Christian just means a disciple. And the word disciple just means one who’s following Christ. So that’s the simplest way to make it very plain, I think.
SPEAKER 07 :
Well, I agree with you about the term Christian, obviously, and that to me is the point of why it should be emphasized that a person has to be born again because we live in a day and age, obviously, where a man can identify as a woman and children can identify as furries and we can identify as anything. And the meaning of what it means to be a Christian is not an intellectual relationship with Jesus. And I know you’re aware of this. But I’ve met a lot of people who call themselves Christians who are not born again, and therefore they’re not. Here’s the thing.
SPEAKER 03 :
I’m not talking about an intellectual grasp of Jesus. Following Jesus has to do with where your feet are going, how you’re walking, how you’re living. It’s not how many intellectual ideas of Christ you’ve gotten right. In fact, I often mention that I think there’s a lot of people who are true followers of Christ whose theology leaves much to be desired. because we’re not saved by having intellectual ideas about Christ correctly arranged, or else salvation would be available only to those who had a mental capacity to sort through these kinds of abstract things. And some do, most don’t, but it takes a child. A child can follow Christ, obviously. If he’s surrendered to Christ as his Lord and King, he can follow him. But following has a great deal to do with walking and living a certain way, and that’s what I think of it as. Now, when you mention being born again, I don’t deny that we’re born again, but to tell somebody that they have to be born again, that’s not helping them, I think, because, I mean, Jesus only used that term with Nicodemus in order to point out that he wasn’t saved. Nicodemus, you think you’re saved because you’ve got a noble Jewish birth, but your Jewish birth won’t help you. You need to have a second birth. And the man said, well, how do I do that? And so… And Jesus said, well, you’ve got to believe, just like Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness. So the Son of Man will be lifted up. Whoever believes in him will have life. So, in other words, Jesus mentioned to the man that he had to be born again only because he wasn’t. But he didn’t, you know, if you tell somebody you have to be born again, which may be entirely true, you’re not telling them what to do. I mean, you don’t born yourself again. You don’t birth yourself again. That’s something God does. He does it to people who surrender to Christ and become his followers, that is, who become Christians. So, yeah, I’m totally with you. I mean, you’ve got to be born again. But if somebody asks me, what do I do to become a Christian? Well, for me to say you need to be born again, I’ve told him nothing of practical value because he can’t do anything about that. That’s something God does. He can repent. He can believe. He can surrender to Christ, which is what he needs to do. And then he will be born again, to be sure. But I guess I try to be as practical and helpful in my instructions as possible. If someone says, what do I have to do to be a Christian? I’d say, well, you have to be a follower of Christ. Well, don’t I have to be born again? Sure, sure. God will take care of that part. Now, being born again is God’s work. You’re born not of the flesh nor of the will of man nor the will of, you know, whatever, but of God. It’s God who births people again. And God doesn’t need to be told how to do that. People need to be told how to put themselves in the position for God to do that. So that’s where I’m looking at it from.
SPEAKER 07 :
And I agree with everything that you said. Again, the problem is, to my mind, we cannot even follow Jesus unless we have the Spirit of God within us who leads us and guides us into all truth.
SPEAKER 03 :
So to say you can follow Jesus… In order to follow Christ, you have to become a follower. When you become a follower is when you stop not being a follower. That’s when you repent, in other words. You repent of your life of rebellion and become a submissive follower. You put your trust in him. And you ask God to give you the Holy Spirit, as Jesus said you do. He said, how much more if you earthly fathers give good gifts to your children. When they ask, how much more will your father give the Holy Spirit to those who ask? So, I mean, that’s obviously the only way to be a successful follower of Christ is to be given the Holy Spirit. But, again, there’s lots of things that are true of Christians I could say. If I’m trying to be succinct and give a definition, while it is true that if a person doesn’t have the Holy Spirit, they’re not a Christian, the Bible doesn’t ever say, you become a Christian by receiving the Holy Spirit. Peter said if you repent and be baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, you’ll receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. Again, that’s something God does. So God births us again. God gives the Holy Spirit. I don’t think that God needs to be told his part. People need to be told what they need to do. So, again, to surrender to Christ, to become his follower, is how you can’t become a follower without first becoming a follower. And that becoming point is where you change directions, where you weren’t following him now, I’m going to now. And, of course, you become submitted to Christ. When somebody says, I’d like to do that, I’ll be glad to talk about baptism and about receiving the Spirit and walking in the Spirit and, you know, meditating on the Word of God. There’s lots of things part of the Christian life. I was just trying to be as succinct as possible. Once you give that answer, then, of course, you can unpack it as people show that they lack, you know, information about some of the things you’ve already said. All right? Well, I guess. We’ve got our lines full, and we’ve been talking for long enough. I need to talk to someone else now.
SPEAKER 07 :
Thanks a lot. Appreciate it.
SPEAKER 03 :
Okay, Drew. We can talk again sometime. God bless. Dave from Hooksett, New Hampshire. Welcome.
SPEAKER 04 :
Hello, Steve, and I’ll keep it very brief. Thank you so much. I love your show. Thank you. Yeah, no, well, first, one quick rebuttal to the astronomical thing. Eclipses don’t last very long, and the darkness did. So that’s all for that. But the question I have is something that maybe you know, because it’s occurred to me lately that whatever happened to Lazarus, Because now we know that the church leaders wanted him killed too. Yet we don’t hear anything at all in Scripture whatsoever about it. Is there anything else that would tell us what might have happened to Lazarus?
SPEAKER 03 :
You know, if Lazarus had been killed by the Pharisees as they plotted on doing, we probably would have a record of it. Although even if it did happen, it would be very much eclipsed by the fact that Jesus at the same time was put to death, which is far more central to the more important in the narrative. There are many Christians who have died as followers of Christ, and not all of them are named for us. But we have the impression that Stephen was the first actual martyr and not Lazarus. And as far as what Lazarus did after, you know, it’s interesting. What did the rich young ruler do? Did he later repent? What did the centurion do who Jesus cured his servant? Did he become a part of the church? We’re not told those things. The stories of Jesus’ interaction with different people usually are brief and, you know, some particular event, some particular interaction. And then, you know, the rest of their story is not told to us. Obviously, they did have a remainder of their story, but the purpose of the writing of the Gospels was not to give the biography of everyone Jesus met or even everyone Jesus healed. But principally, you give the biography of Jesus and very selective at that. So, you know, we don’t have, the answer is we don’t have the information. We would have described as mentally ill are in the Bible described as demonized. and are delivered by Jesus or the apostles supernaturally, just like he healed physical sicknesses. We might assume, although someone might not wish to, we might assume that there were two kinds of maladies that people had. One were physical maladies, which Jesus healed, and the other were spiritual maladies, which had to do with their behavior, their minds, and things like that. And those were seen as demonic, and they were remedied. with exorcism. Now, I don’t believe that everyone who’s kind of messed up in their thinking has a demon. But I do believe that anyone who’s deceived or in chronic confusion is probably being deceived by the devil. Now, you don’t have to be demon-possessed to be deceived by the devil. But the Bible says the devil is the deceiver of the whole world. And people are deceived in different ways and about different things. If somebody is delusional, then obviously they’re seeing things not the way they are. And that’s being deceived. I would say I’d be most inclined to see demons involved, even though I’m not referring to demon possession necessarily. I believe there is such a thing as demon possession, but I don’t think everybody who’s afflicted by demonic attack could be described as possessed, but I do think that Christians are under attack all the time from demons, not all in the same way. Now, obviously, I haven’t had this particular problem myself, so I don’t know what it feels like to have it. I don’t know what he’s aware of and what he’s not aware of at those times. But I do know very much by simply focusing on the truth. The truth can make you free. But there may be more to it. You know, people can be demonized, or they can be not demonized. They can have much more control over their own thinking, but they’re still allowing themselves to believe lies, which the devil is telling them. I don’t know at what point we would cross a line where we call it mental illness. I mean, we might speak of it as a mental illness, just in a manner of speaking, even though it’s not a term. you know a traditional illness caused by germs or by physical injury or whatever there are people whose behaviors and thinking are very much impaired by physical things by brain chemistry problems by drugs by thyroid you know problems by brain tumors there’s lots of things that can happen physically to a person that have a negative impact an impairing effect on their thinking. And that would be the first thing I’d be interested in knowing because if that’s the problem, then it’s a regular sickness. It’s not a mental illness. It’s just a brain tumor or something like that. A mental illness is not the same thing as a physical illness. I mean, the terms are not used the same way. Even if a physical illness causes people to behave strangely or think strangely. Again, if it’s caused by a thyroid condition or if it’s caused by hypoglycemia or if it’s caused by sleep deprivation or if it’s caused by you know a brain chemistry problem or brain tumor those are not mental illness those are physical illness and they should be treated like any other physical illness but a lot of times people are called mentally ill when there’s no discernible physical cause and the doctors just give them a label of mental illness because they don’t know what else to say about it they can’t give a physical diagnosis of something, sometimes they guess. They’ll even tell people who have conditions, oh, you’ve got a brain chemistry condition, but they haven’t discerned one. They just assume it must be true. Because there are many diagnoses of mental illness that have no physical basis at all. And when that is the case, I’m more inclined to see it as a spiritual problem. Again, I’m not saying it has to be demon possession, although in extreme cases it could be. But I’m just saying… I think it’s the devil that deceives people. If people are seeing things delusionally, I think the devil is not far from that situation. He’s working on them.
SPEAKER 09 :
Right. No, I appreciate that. What I’d like to say is he has asked for deliverance. Well, I think what they call mental illness is a chemical imbalance.
SPEAKER 03 :
Well, if they have found a chemical imbalance in his brain, then I would accept that. If they have not, if they’re just saying, well, have they identified what it is? What chemical is in his brain that’s not supposed to be there?
SPEAKER 09 :
Oh, I see what you’re saying. Well, they’re just saying it’s an imbalance.
SPEAKER 03 :
Yeah, see, they often say that whether they’ve found one or not because it’s their theory. Their theory is that the human body has no soul. That’s the secular view, that there is no soul, there’s no non-physical part. So everything about us must be explained physically. And brain chemistry is one of the explanations of choice among secular people. They say, well, it’s a brain chemistry problem. They can’t often find a brain chemistry imbalance in many of the patients they’ve diagnosed, but they still assume it must be. because they don’t acknowledge a spiritual component to man. Now, some Christians recognize a spiritual component, but their training has been by secular psychologists and psychiatrists, so that they often think in a secular way about these things. This is a complex situation. Obviously, I can’t diagnose him. I have no idea. But I would say that, in general, I think that some mental misbehavior is caused by physical brain problems. But I think it’s caused by that not as often as it’s claimed that it is. I think a lot of times it’s a spiritual thing.
SPEAKER 09 :
Just quickly, my brother was on the street for three years and was found naked in a canyon. Okay.
SPEAKER 03 :
Well, okay, listen, this isn’t going to be quick enough. This isn’t going to be quick enough because I only have a few minutes. All my lines are full with people who want to talk to me. I’m sorry. I can’t diagnose your brother over the phone. I’m sorry.
SPEAKER 09 :
Well, I guess what I’m trying to ask simply, and I’ll just try and get it out real quick, is this is great torment for him and pain. And I just, I have, I had a hard time with suicide being… so selfish. I mean, I know people in that state of mind are self-absorbed, but I don’t think everybody understands why. Well, you’re right.
SPEAKER 03 :
Yeah, I certainly don’t understand why, but it doesn’t change the fact. I mean, if a person is self-absorbed and they go out and kill 30 people in a bar, I don’t understand why. That doesn’t change the fact they’re a murderer and that they should be tried as murderers, but I don’t know why they did it. And I guess, you know, the Bible often doesn’t really deal with the questions of why. I think psychology and psychiatry is always fascinated with the why questions. And I guess sometimes that’s helpful to know. But in many cases, I don’t even know why. I just need to know that the person has done something that they shouldn’t have done. And therefore, you know, even if someone diagnosed them as mentally ill, that shouldn’t let them off the hook. I mean, if they’re mentally ill in such a way that they kill people, then they’re a danger to society, and they should be objectively learned.
SPEAKER 09 :
All right.
SPEAKER 03 :
Well, listen, I’m out of time for this call. I’m out of time for this call. I know you’re really concerned about your brother, and I understand why. I just can’t do much more for you about it, I’m sorry to say. And I know you probably just wanted to share some of the burden that’s on your heart about it, too, but My lines are so full, I’m going to have to turn most of these calls away because we’re running out of time in the next few minutes. Craig from Bridgeport, Connecticut. Welcome to The Narrow Path. Thanks for calling.
SPEAKER 08 :
Good afternoon. I’ll make it quick. What’s your point of view from the Bible, and how does it, in reference to R.C. Sproul’s writings? Well, okay, okay.
SPEAKER 03 :
Well, it depends on which writings. I’ve read lots of R.C. Sproul’s writings, and I’ve listened to a lot of his lectures, recorded lectures, I won’t say hundreds, maybe 50 of them. And so I’m fairly familiar with him. He wrote about a lot of things that I would totally agree with him about, probably 100%. One of the things about R.C. Sproul, though, is he is a strong promoter of Calvinism, and I’m not a Calvinist, so obviously I would disagree with him on those points. So when he’s arguing for Calvinism, I think he’s mistaken. And on many other things which are not specifically about Calvinism, I would tend to agree with him. And I probably have agreed with him on more things than I’ve disagreed with him on. But, of course, Calvinism is one of his major, or of course he’s deceased now, but it was one of his major thrusts in his ministry. And therefore that was a major thrust that I had to disagree with. If you’re interested in what I think about Calvinism, I have lectures at my website called God’s Sovereignty and Man’s Salvation, a very long series, 12 lectures. But I quote R.C. Sproul, and I quote John Piper, and I quote Calvinists of all kinds, John MacArthur and so forth, and I interact with the scriptures they use and the arguments they use. And it’s a very thorough teaching. Anyone who’s fascinated with this discussion of Calvinism and non-Calvinism would probably find it helpful to go to thenarrowpath.com and go to the Topical Lectures tab. And there at the Topical Lectures tab, scroll down until you see God’s Sovereignty and Man’s Salvation. There’s a 12-lecture series there that I’d recommend if you’re interested, because I leave no stone unturned. I deal with every scripture that Calvinists use, and I… I look at it in context. I deal with their arguments, so I quote them and answer them. So if you’re interested in that part of my reaction to R.C. Sproul, you can get it in detail at the website. As you can tell, I’m out of time for the program today, and my apologies to the many who are still waiting online. You’ve been listening to the Narrow Path radio broadcast. My name is Steve Gregg, and we are listener-supported. If you’d like to write to us, the address is TheNarrowPath, P.O. Box 1730, Temecula, California, 92593. Our website is thenarrowpath.com. Thanks for joining us. God bless.
