As ‘The Narrow Path’ welcomes a new audience in Miami, Steve Gregg continues to foster in-depth theological conversations while providing clarity on difficult scriptural topics. The show addresses tough questions about historical religious societies like the Nicolaitans and touches upon the delicate balance between serving Israel and the modern-day church. This episode is for anyone seeking to broaden their understanding of biblical teachings and their relevance today.
SPEAKER 07 :
Good afternoon, and welcome to the Narrow Path radio broadcast. My name is Steve Gregg. I’ve got something in my throat this afternoon, so I may have to clear my throat a little bit at the beginning here. I haven’t done much talking yet today. That happens a lot of times. If I don’t talk much in the morning, then my voice doesn’t know I’ve been awake all day. So we’re working on that. Anyway, if you’re listening for the first time and unfamiliar with the show, please We are a live broadcast in which you can call in any time during this hour. Ask any question you have about the Bible or the Christian faith, and we’ll discuss it. And if you hear something on the show you don’t agree with, you’re always welcome to call in, and we’ll discuss that disagreement if you’d like. By the way, we do have a new station coming on with us today, and we’ve got a Miami audience now. So all of you listening in Miami, We welcome you to join us. And we’re going to be losing a station in Dallas, Texas. Now, it’s not that we didn’t have the support. We do. It’s that the KAM is actually going, I guess, out of business, I guess, or something like that. They’re going offline. And so they’re closing their doors. So I guess we’ll be looking for a new Dallas station before long. But we’re sorry to see that that station closed down. And so we have a couple of announcements to make here. I don’t know if I gave the phone number out yet, so let me give out the phone number first, and I’ll make the announcements. The number to call if you’d like to be on the air is 844-484-5737. That’s 844-484-5737. And this coming Saturday, which is, I guess, what, the 14th? I’m going to be speaking at a men’s study in Temecula, California. If you’re in Southern California interested in that, you can go to our website, thenarrowpath.com, look under the tab that says Announcements, and that’ll tell you where and when that study is. I’ll be talking about the four views of Revelation there. All right, and apart from that announcement, I have nothing more to say except we’ll go to the phones and talk to Barbara from Roseville, Michigan. Hi, Barbara. Welcome to The Narrow Path.
SPEAKER 02 :
Thanks for calling. Thank you. Thank you, Steve. My question has to deal with the man who had the lesion of demons that Jesus cast out into the pigs. Do you know what his ethnicity was? How did he get so many demons? How long did he have this condition? And do people in other countries get – is this still taking place where people are getting so many demons? And what are they doing to eradicate it? And I’ll just hang up and listen.
SPEAKER 07 :
All right. Well, thanks for your call. As far as what his ethnicity was, we’re not really told. But we do know of another occasion when a woman from Syrophoenicia came to Jesus and asked him to help cast the demons out of her daughter. And Jesus said, I’m not come but to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. Now, because she persisted in faith, he went ahead and granted her request. But he was basically saying, it’s not time for me to go to the Gentiles yet. Now, of course, there would be a time. But when Jesus came initially, he was fulfilling the promises God made to Israel about the Messiah. And his first order of business was to minister to the needs of the Israelite people. So this woman was a Gentile who came. and said, My daughter has a demon. Could you help her? And Jesus said, Well, actually, I’m only sent to the Israelites at this point. But she persisted in faith. He said, Oh, woman, great is your faith. Okay, your daughter’s well now. So Jesus did do that special thing for a non-Israelite woman, but he made it sound like it was a very special instance. Now, this man who had the legion of demons was not in Israel per se. He was across the Jordan. in what’s called the Decapolis, which is 10 Greek cities in the region. And he may have been Greek, but I think he probably was Jewish. Actually, there were two such men, Matthew tells us, that were together in the tombs. They had been banished from town because of their crazy behavior. And it seems to me they probably were Jewish since Jesus just ministered to them and did not make an issue of them. You know, like being a Gentile or a thing like that. And so my impression is that’s the way it is. Now, how did they become demon-possessed? We’re not told. We’re actually not told how any of these people became demon-possessed. There’s different ways it could happen. I think one of the main ways, but certainly not the only way, that people have been known to become demonized is through involvement in the occult, being involved in occult demonic activities. whether these men were ever in that situation or not, we don’t know. There may be other things, other compromises in their lives that could have caused it. We’re given no information about how these men came to be in such a terrible state. You ask how long he’d been in that state. Well, We don’t know, but it had been a while because he had been driven out of the village because it tells us, I think, in Mark’s gospel that they had chained him up several times to try to, you know, inhibit his violent behavior, and he broke the chains. And so they simply, I guess, drove him out of the village with pitchforks or something, you know, and he went out and lived among the tombs. So we don’t have the answers to your questions, nor… Do we have those answers to any of the cases of demon possession in the New Testament? We just don’t know. But many times, demon possession is associated with the occult. There was a magician on the island of Cyprus that was encountered by Paul and Barnabas, who was a magician who may have had demons associated. The woman at Lystra, who could tell fortunes, had demons. And Paul cast the demons out, and she couldn’t tell fortunes anymore. You know, the witch at Endor in the Old Testament, she had a familiar spirit. She was involved in mediumship and seances. So demons are often associated with the occult in the Bible. And I would say not only in the Bible, but in real life, too. Now, Israel probably didn’t have that much occultism going on because it was illegal in Israel under Moses’ law. But that doesn’t mean there weren’t some people secretly doing stuff, and maybe the demons took advantage of that. But this is only conjecture because we’re looking at stories that don’t have that information in them. Is it still today the case? Absolutely. Yeah, you’ll still find demon-possessed people today. I think they often are more easily manifested in pagan countries because I think once that Christianity has kind of pervaded a culture, even if most people are not yet Christians, I believe that widespread demonic activity… and the occult, for example, are not as mainstream, and therefore you don’t see it maybe as much in a Christianized civilization. But it’s there, too. You’ll certainly find it here in America. There are demon-possessed people here. But missionaries who go to India or China or the jungles of South America or Africa often encounter demon possession very frequently. It’s not gone yet. All right. Let’s talk to Alan from Old Saybrook, Connecticut. Hi, Alan. Welcome.
SPEAKER 11 :
Thank you for the welcome, Steve, and thank you for your due diligence and study so you can answer questions like this. I haven’t had this subject brought up to me ever since Jerry Farwell took over the PTL Club in South Carolina since he was a cessationist in Mr. Baker was Pentecostal. Now, the question is this. I was watching a commentary on YouTube, and the person said, don’t watch this. Now, I really like the music of Brandon Lake and the Cash family, We the Kingdom. And they said, don’t listen to it because they fellowship with Bill Johnson from Redding, California, Stephen Furtick from North Carolina, and Joyce Meyer. Now, I don’t know the former two, but I like Joyce Meyer, actually. But my point is, We’re called to unity. Can you say to us, is secondary separation necessary since we’re called to unity? Can you discuss what secondary separation is and if it’s even necessary?
SPEAKER 07 :
Yeah, well, I’m pretty slow to disfellowship people unless they themselves disfellowship. are promoting sin or sinning, themselves unrepentant. That’s the main thing. Now, of course, there is such a thing as excommunication because of theological error. The problem is that, unlike the Catholic Church, we Protestants don’t have some council somewhere that officially decides who’s got heretical beliefs and who doesn’t. I myself am not comfortable with Bethel up in Reading. I’m not familiar with the NAR. But I don’t have the authority to declare anybody to be a heretic. I mean, they’re not denying Christ as far as I know. Obviously, the things that Bethel is known for are perhaps the same kinds of things that other Charismatics and Pentecostals are known for, with the exception that they may carry some of them way too far. And I think they do. But then that’s just a matter of degree, you know, to say, well, we’re going to label Bethel, you know, and everyone touching their ministry in any way as a heretical group. Well, I mean, I could say this. I believe that they are imbalanced. I believe that they are wrong. I think they get involved in things that are, to my mind, dangerously close to occultism, although I’m a charismatic myself. I believe in the gifts of the Spirit. But I would have to treat the persons on a case-by-case basis, because not everybody in Bethel is involved in bad stuff. It may be that everyone there is more tolerant of some of these things than I would be, but I don’t know that Protestants are in a position to excommunicate people for their tolerance of things. Now, if they’re tolerating sin, we can certainly say this group, we don’t recommend them. We suggest people not go there because, you know, they’re taking the wrong stand about sin. But if we’re saying, well, they’ve got a different view of healing than we have. Well, OK, I might think their view of healing is mistaken and wrong. But I’m not some kind of official church council that can say, okay, that’s heretical. Anyone who holds that view or associates with anyone who holds that view is a heretic and you can’t fellowship with them. I’m not of that mind at all. I disagree with almost everybody on something or another. There’s not one group that I agree with 100%. And so I just don’t make myself the heresy hunter going out looking for people to excommunicate. If there’s somebody in my fellowship that is living in an unrepentant sin, I find Jesus’ words in Matthew 18, verses 15 through 17, to be requiring that we take the steps of church discipline. for that. But I can’t just go sniffing out every group in the United States or in the world that calls itself a Protestant church and say, well, we can’t fellowship with any of them because I disagree with them on that or on that or on that or on that. I think that the most we can do is recognize that in the Protestant movement, there are very many different viewpoints and practices that that we’d have to make a list of the ones we can’t tolerate and the ones we can, which maybe someone would do that. I don’t have such a list like that. I figure that if they love the Lord, if they are obeying Christ, if they’re walking in obedience to Christ, they’re not living in sin or sponsoring sin, then I’m going to say, however much I may disagree with them, I can’t say they’re not brothers. I can’t say they’re not Christians. And it happens. I know some people who were associated with the industry years ago who, to my surprise, moved to Reading and became part of Bethel. I was very surprised because I would have thought they were of a very different, I don’t know, attitude about things than Bethel. But anyway. Yeah, I realize that a lot of music comes out of Bethel, and a lot of the churches around the world are singing them. It’s sort of like the Hillsong thing. I mean, there’s been some problems with Hillsong, and yet a lot of music sung in churches comes from there. So I’ve heard people say, well, we can’t sing the music that comes out of Hillsong or out of Bethel or whatever. Well, you know, I’m not sure that we need their music, but I also wouldn’t say that their music is tainted necessarily. by the fact that the church has some practices that are, to my mind, extreme. That would be the most I could say about it. So I don’t excommunicate someone because they like Bethel or go to Bethel. And, in fact, I haven’t even – I wouldn’t be able to excommunicate Bill Johnson, the pastor at Bethel, without first, you know, talking to him and finding out where he stands on certain things. So, no, I don’t think that people should be disassociated with because they have had contact with someone, some group that we don’t agree with. Because, like you mentioned, Jerry Falwell believed in cessationism. Now, I don’t believe in cessationism. I don’t think that’s taught in the Bibles. I think that’s the opposite extreme of what Bethel’s doing. But both are extreme positions. And so, you know, I’m not going to excommunicate either of them. However, if I were, I don’t run into these people all the time. They’re not in my circle. So if I ever, you know, if I ever had them in my circle, I’d certainly get a better look at what they believe in practice. And there might be. Some people of that type that I would say, hey, I can’t really approve of fellowshipping with them for whatever reason. But again, if people are obeying Jesus and he’s their Lord and they want to follow him, it’s just kind of one of those things. I think, okay, I’ll let God be the judge. I’m not going to make the perimeters that can be called Christian or non-Christian when there’s so many varieties of Christians.
SPEAKER 06 :
Okay. Thank you.
SPEAKER 07 :
All right, Alan. Thanks for your call. Ben in Troy, Michigan. Welcome to The Narrow Path. Thanks for calling.
SPEAKER 04 :
You’re welcome. So I am very curious about when we die because I’m 17 and I’m just curious about that. Like So I know our body leaves our spirit, but when we get up to heaven, will I have a new body? How does that work?
SPEAKER 07 :
Okay, well, I know of people who do think that we will have bodies in heaven. The Bible doesn’t really mention that. In fact, the Bible hardly ever mentions going to heaven at all. But what it does talk about going to heaven, for example, in 2 Corinthians 5 or in Philippians 1, where Paul talks about death. He says he’s eager to depart and be with the Lord. Now, that’s in Philippians 1. To depart and be with the Lord, he means die. And it’s his spirit that’s going to depart. He doesn’t say whether he will have a body up there or not. But in 2 Corinthians 5, he says that we are looking forward to being absent from the body, which is what happens at death, and being present with the Lord. Now, he might just mean absent from this earthly body. Maybe there’s another body up there. In fact, in 2 Corinthians 5, he actually does mention that we have a house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens. But I take that to be a reference to the temple of the Holy Spirit, which is collectively made up of all of us as living stones. But the point is, we will have another body eventually. but maybe not in heaven. I don’t know of anything in the Bible that says that we will have new bodies in heaven, but the Bible does say at the end of time that the dead will be raised. All the bodies will be raised. They’ll be glorified. They’ll be immortalized and so forth. And so the way I understand it, and it could be other than this because we only have a very few passages in the Bible that really even mention it, and they don’t answer all of our questions, but I believe that when I die, My body will go into the ground and it will stay there until Jesus comes back. But my spirit will not. My spirit will go be with the Lord. And I’ll be disembodied. I’ll be absent from the body and present with the Lord. But when Jesus returns, he’s going to raise the bodies out of the ground. He said that. And Paul said that. Fairly clear teaching of scripture. That the bodies will be raised out of the ground. And those of us who have died in the meantime will be brought back. Our spirits will be brought back to be embodied again, this time in glorified bodies, immortal bodies, which are simply the remaking of the bodies that were buried. Paul said our bodies, when we die, they’re planted, he means buried, in a weakness, but they’re raised in power. He said they’re planted in dishonor. And they’re raised in glory. So we see that it’s the same body. Just like Jesus, when he came out of the grave, he was in the same body, but it’s changed. His body had been transformed into a glorious body. And it says in Philippians chapter 3, the last verse, it says that Jesus will come and change our vile body into the likeness of his glorious body. So in my opinion, that’s talking about a physical body coming out of the grave, with new characteristics, new qualities, new and improved, and our spirits, which will have been in heaven if we had died in the meantime, will come back with Christ because he’s coming back. And he’s going to bring us with him is the phrase that Paul uses in 1 Thessalonians. I think that’s verse 14 of chapter 4. So those are the things that… I believe, and I think most Christians, most evangelicals do. It’s a fairly standard understanding of things. When you die, your spirit goes to be with the Lord. Your body goes into the ground. You’re with the Lord in heaven until Jesus returns from heaven. He comes back here and he raises the bodies from the ground. And then as he is in a glorified body, so will we be to live with him in the new earth. Okay. All right. Now, why are you thinking about dying so much? I hope you’re only 17. Are you in good health?
SPEAKER 04 :
Yeah, I eat a lot of junk food.
SPEAKER 07 :
Oh, well, then you better be worried, yeah?
SPEAKER 04 :
Yeah.
SPEAKER 07 :
Oh, well. Yeah, well, I’d suggest that you be a good steward of your body because even if you’ve got a lot of years on you, if you don’t steward your body well, you won’t be given the best of it. of your energies to God. When you stand before God, you’re going to want to say, hey, I gave the best of my energies. I stewarded all the opportunities in my body and my health. I stewarded it in a way for your glory. So then he’ll say, well done, good and faithful servant.
SPEAKER 04 :
Yeah. One more thing. So I went onto your website to try to find the Zoom meeting, and I couldn’t find it.
SPEAKER 07 :
If you go to my website and look at the tab that says resources and links, links and resources, something like that. Yeah. There will be the YouTube videos. We have a YouTube channel. Right. You can link to it from there. Once you’re at the YouTube channel, I think all the Zoom meetings are there on YouTube.
SPEAKER 04 :
Right. I saw that, but I want to join them.
SPEAKER 07 :
Oh, you wanted to join the meeting while it’s in progress. Oh, okay. Yeah, what you do there is at our website, you go to the tab that says announcements. And then you go to at the time of the meeting. And, of course, we had one, what, a week or so ago. So we only have them once a month. But at the time of the meeting, the logon information is there.
SPEAKER 04 :
Oh, okay.
SPEAKER 07 :
All right. I look forward to seeing you in the next one. Yeah. All right. Thanks for your call. Another Benjamin. That was Ben. This is Benjamin from Greenville, Ohio. Hi, Benjamin. Welcome.
SPEAKER 08 :
I recently heard a suggestion that Lucius and Luke may be in the same person, and I was wanting to see if you know anything about that or if there’s any scripture to back it up. I’ll take your answer. All right.
SPEAKER 07 :
Okay, yeah, I can’t help you much. Some people do think Lucius is the same person as Luke, just like Silvanus is the same person as Silas. And, you know, these are shortened forms of their names. So Luke could be a shortened form of Lucius. But I don’t know that that’s a mainstream understanding of the identity of Lucius. So I think it’s one of those things that people say, well, it could be. It could be the same name. And I would have to agree it could be. But I don’t know enough. We have very little information about Lucius and not very much more about Luke. to know whether they can be the same person or not. So the answer is going to have to be I don’t know, and with a tag on that saying I don’t think anyone knows. There are some people who have opinions, but I don’t think we have enough information at all to make a certain identification there. I’m sorry. Sure, brother. All right. God bless you, Benjamin. God bless you. Bye now. All right, we have our bottom-of-the-hour break already coming up. It doesn’t seem like that went fast. We have another half hour coming. Our program every day is an hour. And at the bottom of the hour, I need to let people know, because we have no commercial breaks and we don’t have anything for sale or any sponsors, I need to let you know that we are listener-supported. And we’re on a lot of radio stations, but we pay each of them a ton of money to be on. And so we depend on the Lord, really. But usually the Lord provides through people who are like you, who benefit from the show and would like to keep it on the air. You know, the show’s been on the air for 28 years daily. It’s been a long time. And we don’t look like we’re going to stop anytime soon. But we do pay monthly bills to these radio stations to keep us on the air. If you’d like to help us stay on the air. You can. You can write to The Narrow Path, PO Box 1730, Temecula, California, 92593. That’s The Narrow Path, PO Box 1730, Temecula, California, 92593. Now… Our listeners in Miami, I assume, are all new because this is, I think, our first day on in Miami. And I just want you to know that our website, which was mentioned by one of our callers, is thenarrowpath.com. And at thenarrowpath.com, we not only have archives of these radio shows going back for many, many years, but we also have about 1,500 of my lectures. For many years, I taught at Bible College where I taught through the whole Bible verse by verse. We have lectures of me teaching verse by verse through the Bible and on hundreds and hundreds of topics as well. And those are all there free. You can listen to them right there for free. And you ought to check out the website because it’s got a lot of really good stuff and everything’s free. If you want to donate, you can do it from the website. There’s a donation tab, but we don’t care if you do or not. We just want to make our materials available to you so that you can grow in your faith, and as a disciple of Jesus. The website, again, is thenarrowpath.com. That’s thenarrowpath.com. Check it out. And we’re going to take a brief break, 30 seconds, and I’ll be back. We’ll have another half hour. Don’t go away.
SPEAKER 01 :
As you know, the Narrow Path radio show is Bible radio that has nothing to sell you but everything to give you. So do the right thing and share what you know with your family and friends. Tell them to tune in to the Narrow Path on this radio station or go to thenarrowpath.com where they will find topical audio teachings, blog articles, verse-by-verse teachings, and archives of all the radio shows. You know listeners supported Narrow Path with Steve Gregg? Share what you know.
SPEAKER 07 :
Welcome back to the Narrow Path radio broadcast. My name is Steve Gregg, and we’re live for another half hour, taking your calls. If you have questions about the Bible or the Christian faith, I welcome you to join us. If you differ from the host in anything you see, you know, a different theology, or maybe you’re not even a Christian, you just differ from Christianity, feel free to give me a call. I’d be glad to talk to you. The number to call is 844-484-5737. And this is a good time to call because I’m looking at a couple or three open lines on our switchboard. That’s a pretty big opportunity if you want to call right now. 844-484-5737. All right. Our next caller is Howard from Boise, Idaho. Hi, Howard. Welcome.
SPEAKER 10 :
Hi, Steve. I’ve heard for years that we really didn’t know what the Nicolaitans were, a couple of theories. But then recently I heard you and another guy talking about a person named Nikolai. Nikolai. Is that like a recent development?
SPEAKER 07 :
No, it’s actually what the church fathers said about the Nicolaitans. When I was growing up, the teachers that were teaching the book of Revelation for me, and by the way, the Nicolaitans are not mentioned in the Bible except in the book of Revelation. They’re mentioned in chapter 2 twice. There’s those in one of the churches that had the doctrines of the Nicolaitans, and one had the deeds of the Nicolaitans, and both of them are things that Jesus said, I hate them. I hate those deeds and I hate those doctrines of the Nicolaitans. So of course it raises serious questions. Well, what are they? Who are the Nicolaitans? Now, the teachers I sat under, and you’ll hear some of this on the radio occasionally when people are teaching through this part of Revelation, they say, well, Nicolaitan comes from two Greek words, Nikos and Leos. And they say Nikos means conquering and Leos means the people. So they say, well, the Nicolaitans, therefore, teach a doctrine of The people that is the laity being conquered by the clergy. And so they try to make this out to be a doctrine that began to make a division between the. clergy is sort of a hierarchy in the church, and the people who are sort of subservient to them. And so this is what was taught as if there’s some evidence of this. Now, I don’t believe there’s any evidence for this. I don’t believe that Nikos and Laos are related to the Nicolaitans. It’s possible that the word Nikolaos, I don’t know, might have that kind of etymology, but the Nicolaitans, according to several of the church fathers in the second century, who knew who they were, said that they were kind of a Gnostic cult that took the name of Nicholas. Now, Nicholas was one of the seven men chosen in Acts chapter 6 to be what we would probably call deacons today when the apostles felt like they were overworked. trying to do the food distribution and the preaching and all the leadership duties, they asked the church to suggest seven men to whom could be delegated this work. Of course, Philip and Stephen, There were two of these seven, and of course, the best-known ones. But there was also Nicholas. When the names of these seven men are given, one of them is named Nicholas. Now, that being so, we are told by some of the church fathers that this Nicholas… later had some heretics claiming his name as their founder. Now, whether he became a heretic himself and taught heresy, or whether some group just kind of took his name, I can’t really say. I don’t know if we really know that. But allegedly… from more than one of the church fathers, the Nicolaitans, were named after Nicholas, who is the last man mentioned among the seven who were chosen. And his name is found in Acts chapter 6, verse 5. where the list is Stephen, Philip, Prochorus, Nicanor, Timon, Parmenas, Nicholas, a proselyte from Antioch. So Nicholas, interestingly, was not Jewish born. He was a proselyte, which means a Gentile who converted to Judaism from Antioch. But he was in the Jerusalem church at that time and was baptized. among those entrusted with what we would call deacon’s duties. These seven men are never called deacons in the Bible, but they seem to be proto-deacons, men who would serve the church. The word deacon, diakonos in the Greek means servant. So that’s what we have from the church fathers on the Nicolaitans.
SPEAKER 10 :
So it would be a Gnostic thing.
SPEAKER 07 :
Yes, some kind of Gnostic teaching. Great, thanks a lot. Okay, Howard. Good talking to you. Thanks for your call. Jim from Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania. Welcome to The Narrow Path. Thanks for calling. Hey, Steve. Love the show.
SPEAKER 05 :
Thank you. Hey, my question is, in Genesis, when I’m not sure exactly where it’s happened, it says that they heard I guess it was after they sinned that they heard God walking in the garden.
SPEAKER 07 :
Yeah, they heard the voice of God walking in the garden, which is interesting.
SPEAKER 05 :
Okay. Well, then I’m wrong. I thought I was just going to ask you. I thought it said they heard him walking in the garden. So I was going to ask you, you know, is God’s spirit at that point? I’m thinking of somebody actually walking, but I guess it doesn’t say that.
SPEAKER 07 :
Well, it could be because the King James says they heard the voice of the Lord God walking in the garden. But the word voice in Hebrew can mean sound. So the New King James says they heard the sound of the Lord God walking in the garden. So you’re wondering if they were hearing his footfalls. Is that the question?
SPEAKER 05 :
Yeah.
SPEAKER 07 :
I think they did. and his voice, too, because he was calling him out by name, saying, Adam, where are you? So they certainly heard his voice, but they might have even before he spoke heard the sound of him walking in the garden. So you’re wondering.
SPEAKER 05 :
My question would be, so he wouldn’t be in spirit form? He would be in a physical form at that point?
SPEAKER 07 :
Apparently, he took on a physical form to meet with them, just like he did when he met with Abraham in Genesis 18.1, or when he wrestled with Jacob all night, also in Genesis. And there’s other times when God seems to have appeared in a physical form. And that seems to be how he appeared to Adam and Eve prior to the fall, and afterwards, apparently. Okay. Okay, yeah, I’ve…
SPEAKER 05 :
I just always kind of think of it as a spirit thing.
SPEAKER 07 :
Well, God is a spirit. God is a spirit, and yet he is known to have taken on, I think temporarily, briefly, a physical form to interact with people. Now, I say briefly because… Because I don’t know that he can’t do that all the time. But in general, we have the impression, especially from Jesus, that God is spirit. And those who worship him must worship in spirit and in truth, obviously in John 4. And also Jesus said in Luke 24, a spirit does not have flesh and bones as you see me have. This is what he said after he rose from the dead. Kind of putting those together, God is a spirit. A spirit doesn’t have flesh and bones. Those are two statements of Jesus. It is generally assumed that God doesn’t have essential physicality like we do. We’re physical beings like the animals are, and God is spirit. But because God can do anything, he can take on a physical form in order to talk with us. Now, even if he didn’t, that doesn’t mean he wouldn’t make any noise. You probably may have heard of poltergeists. Poltergeists seem to be spirits or demons. And the word poltergeist literally means in German noisy ghosts. And it would appear that poltergeist can manipulate physical reality, too. So it’s possible that even if God wasn’t in physical form, he could have been. I don’t know why he’d make noise, you know, walking and so forth. So we’re not told, and I can’t really see much reason why we’d need to know. But my impression is it’s like several other times in the Old Testament where God actually does take on a physical form briefly in order to interact with other human beings. And that may be what he normally did with Adam and Eve before they fell.
SPEAKER 05 :
Well, that answers my question. Thank you so much. Love your show. Thank you.
SPEAKER 07 :
All right, Jim, thanks for calling. Good talking to you. All right. Our next caller is John from Phoenix, Arizona. Hi, John. Welcome to The Narrow Path. Thanks for calling.
SPEAKER 09 :
Hey, Steve. How are you doing?
SPEAKER 07 :
Good.
SPEAKER 09 :
I’ve got a question for you. God, we know, has a plan A and a plan B. Plan B for when we disobey. And I was reading Irenaeus, and he claims that God… His plan A was to lead the Jews out of Egypt and be their God, and he would be their people, and give them the Decalogue, and that would be it. But since they disobeyed at the base of the mountain, God said, okay, I’m going to go ahead and give you 600 other commandments, and they’re going to be a burden to you, but you’re going to learn a lesson through them. And in addition to that, he also kept them in the wilderness for 40 years because they didn’t want to go with plan A. That’s at least what Irenaeus said. What do you think about that? I’ll hang up to hear your response.
SPEAKER 07 :
All right. Yeah, well, I would say definitely that it’s correct that the reason they wandered in the wilderness for 40 years was because they refused to go in to conquer the land, which God had commanded them to do right then. And because they wouldn’t do it, he said, okay, you’re not going to go in then. For the next 40 years, you’re going to wander around. You spent 40 days spying out the land. You thought it was a good land, had every good reason to go in and trust me to give it to you. But since you won’t trust me, I’m going to turn you back. And for every day that the spies spent spying, I’m going to give you a year of wandering. And so they’re wandering in the wilderness for a whole generation before going into the promised land. Definitely was plan B because God had given them commands and they had every possibility of obeying those commands. of going in and taking the land 40 years earlier. So instead, their children’s generation did nothing. So I would agree, that was not God’s highest plan. Now, when it comes to the laws that God was going to give Israel, I think you said that God intended only to give them, like, what, the Ten Commandments or something like that, but then when they disobeyed, he gave them 613 other laws. I don’t think that… exact description works with the chronology because they when god gave them the 10 commandments he also gave them at the same time what was called the book of the covenant which is all the commandments that are found in chapters 21 through 23 of exodus the 10 commandments are in exodus chapter 20 but they are followed by three chapters 21 22 and 23 of other laws and which are called the Book of the Covenant, and they seem to have been given at the same time as the Ten Commandments. And then, you know, later, it’s true, they did disobey God. They made a golden calf, and he gave them more laws. But a lot of those laws had to do with the tabernacle and such. And, you know, I guess we don’t know what God would have done had they not disobeyed. Maybe he wouldn’t have even required a tabernacle. But I think the tabernacle was probably plan A because the tabernacle and the sacrifices of the tabernacle and everything were a type and a shadow of Christ. So I think that God had the plan to depict Christ in types and shadows right from the beginning. So I’m not really sure that we’ve got a plan B situation there as we do in the case of the Israelites having to wander for 40 years. I do believe that, you know, God does, when he gives us commands, he knows if we will obey or not. And so, you know, if we disobey and he has to change the plan, I think, in a sense, he already knew he was going to have to do that. But he still had made a legitimate plan, which would not have been changed had people been obedient. Now, there’s a really difficult philosophical question. problem many people have, trying to figure out how could God know the future unless he has determined it. If he knows I’m going to disobey, is there anything else I really can do than that? And if I can’t, then I don’t have free will. I don’t worry about those things. I think the Bible indicates that God knows the future. There are Christians who think that God doesn’t know what we’re going to do before we do them. But I’m not one of those people. I think he does, but I also think that he doesn’t make it happen. I think he knows it’s going to happen, and we’re the ones who make it happen. That is our disobedience. So anyway, that’s the answer to your question about the Plan B. I believe there’s a Plan B. I don’t know that all those 613 laws later given were part of Plan B, but I do know the wilderness wandering was. All right, we’re going to talk to Brandon from Dallas, Texas. And we have some lines open. If you want to join us before we’re out of time, we have, what, another 10 minutes or so. The number to call is 844-484-5737. That’s 844-484-5737. Our next caller is Brandon. Welcome to the Neuropath, Brandon.
SPEAKER 03 :
Thank you. I actually have a question. I’ve listened to 770 AM Monday through Friday, running around from work, job site to job site. Anyways, one of the other radio hosts said that the owner is selling the land, the radio tower is being taken down, and this station will be no longer. Right. So my question is, is where will you be going so I can hear you after that?
SPEAKER 07 :
Yeah, that’s a good question. Yeah, I announced in the first half hour today that that they will be closing down KAM. And we I guess we’ll be looking for another Dallas area station. Let me just say this, though, to people listening anywhere in Dallas or anywhere else. If ever you’re in a place that doesn’t have a station that carries our program that we’re on all over the country. But there are, of course, some areas where we aren’t carried on radio stations. there’s an alternative. There is our mobile app. Now, you can listen to the radio program live on the mobile app. You can call into the program from the mobile app. You can listen to the archives of the show from the mobile app. You can listen to all the 1,500 lectures of mine from the mobile app. In fact, you can listen for free to the audio book of three of my books on the mobile app. And everything’s free. So You might as well get the app. It’s free. But let me just say this, and I have to always say this. Most people get their apps either from the App Store, if they have an iPhone, or from Google Play, if they have an Android. But our app is found on a web-based app, and it’s very easy to get. It works for both Android and iPhones. Just go to a browser, like if you’ve got an iPhone, go on Safari. If you’ve got an Android, go on Google. And just go to a website. Just like you’re going to any other website, go www.thenarrowpath.app. That’s thenarrowpath.app. It’ll take you to a website where up in the top left corner there’s a drop-down menu. It’ll tell you how to download it. that app onto your main screen of your phone. Once that’s on there, you can, anytime you want to, night or day, listen to this program. It won’t even matter if we’re on a radio station where you are. But we will be looking for another station in Dallas.
SPEAKER 03 :
Thank you.
SPEAKER 07 :
All right. Thanks for calling, Brendan. Bye now. Yeah, and remember, if you’re going to the narrowpath.app, App has two Ps. I would assume you’d know that, but maybe some might not know that. So thenarrowpath.app on your browser, and that’ll bring up a website. You can just download from that the icon onto your phone. Then you’ve got it. It’ll take you there reliably every time. Okay, let’s talk next to Ann Marie in New Haven, Connecticut. Hi, Ann Marie. Welcome.
SPEAKER 13 :
Hello, sir. How are you today?
SPEAKER 07 :
Fine, thanks.
SPEAKER 13 :
Okay, so my question is, is how can I differentiate between serving Israel as a, like a church, or Israel as a person? Some people get kind of confused that the people as the church, they serve united with Israel and My husband will always say to me, well, do you know Israel was a person, Jacob, and then they changed his name. How can I be sure that I’m serving the right people?
SPEAKER 07 :
Well, first of all, most of the nations in the Old Testament came from individuals after whom their name, like the Edomites, was the nation of Edom, named after Edom, which was no name for Esau, just like Jacob and Israel. were two names for the same man. So also Esau and Edom were two names for that man’s twin brother, Jacob’s twin brother. And both of those became nations. Jacob, whose name was changed to Israel, became the children of Israel. That is, his children, his offspring, were the children of Israel. Eventually they became a nation, and they were called the nation of Israel. Edom, the same thing. The Amalekites, same thing. Amalek was the name of the man that the Amalekites came from. And so forth. Lots of the nations of the Old Testament are named after the person who is the progenitor of their nation. And so that would be true of Israel also. The nation of Israel is simply the outgrowth of a family which were named after their ancestor, Jacob or Israel. Now, as far as serving Israel, what you need to do is serve God. And if you see somebody who’s fallen among thieves and needs a good Samaritan, help them. You don’t have to worry about whether they’re part of the nation of Israel or a Samaritan or something else or a Christian. We should help everybody. That’s the whole idea of love your neighbor as you love yourself. The man who asked Jesus, well, how do I know who my neighbor is? Jesus told him the Good Samaritan parable, which was pointing out that the Samaritan and the Jew, the Jew was the victim. The Samaritan was the one who helped. They were a different religion. They were a different race from each other. But they were both human beings. And when you come across somebody in desperate need, you should help them. That’s loving your neighbors. You love yourself. And that’s what we should do. Now, I don’t think we have any special obligation to help people of any particular race above any other race. That is something that many Christians understand differently. Some think that we really owe it to the race or the nation of Israel in the Middle East to stand by them in a way we don’t stand by anyone else. And I just don’t see that in the New Testament anywhere. The main thing is that we’re supposed to stand by our brethren. which is the church. Paul said that, of course, in Galatians 6.10. In Galatians 6.10, Paul said, as you have opportunity, he said, do good to all men, but especially those of the household of faith. So people who are of God’s household, the household of faith, that’s the believers, believers in Christ, the church. Make sure that you prioritize the needs of your brothers and sisters in the family of God. But don’t limit your help to them. He says, as you have opportunity, do good to all men, especially those of the household of faith. So there’s a priority on helping your fellow believers, but it’s not restricted to that. We should help everybody we can. Now, there’s not anything that says in the New Testament you should help everybody, but especially the Jewish people. Okay, well, I’ve got no problem with helping the Jewish people. or any other people, the Arab people or the German people or the Japanese people or the Chinese people. We should, like the story of the Good Spirit, we should help everybody we can. But just make sure we’re not neglecting the body of Christ. That would be our first priority.
SPEAKER 13 :
I understand, comprehend everything you’re saying, and I appreciate you so very much. Thank you for all you do.
SPEAKER 07 :
Okay, and God bless you. Thanks for your call. Okay, let’s see. Our next caller is Rob from Irvine, California. Hi, Rob. Welcome.
SPEAKER 06 :
Hi, Steve. Quick question. Which denomination, if any, would you say aligns closest with your own beliefs? And I will take my answer over there. Thank you.
SPEAKER 07 :
Okay. Well, it depends on which beliefs. You know, I’m not a Calvinist, I’m not a dispensationist, I’m not a cessationist. Now, obviously, the denominations that would probably align least with my beliefs in those areas would be those, I guess, the ones that follow kind of a John MacArthur thing. John MacArthur is a Calvinist, he is a dispensationist, and he is a cessationist. So he differ in all those things. But one thing I would have in common with many people who hold his views would be that I love Jesus. And I think that’s how I define a Christian is someone who follows Christ and, uh, If a person who is a Calvinist and a dispensationalist and a cessationist also follows Jesus, then to me that’s the most important thing. Now, if you say, well, where do we find a denomination that isn’t Calvinist and isn’t dispensationalist? Well, there’s a few of those out there. One is the Church of God of Anderson, Indiana. They’re that way. The Churches of Christ are that way. and there are some independent churches I’ve found that are that way. They’re not Calvinist, not dispensational. But some of those churches are cessationist, too. They don’t believe in the gifts of the Spirit for today, and I’m not on their side about that. But, again, I can fellowship with them. I can fellowship with any group of Christians. I don’t know of any denomination that holds the same cocktail of doctrinal beliefs as I particularly hold, but it doesn’t matter because I’m just looking for people who want to follow Christ. And I have no problem fellowshipping with a Calvinist or a dispensationalist or a cessationist who’s following Christ, even though I might disagree with them on those points. but I’m afraid I can’t really just name a denomination that has all these things in common with my views, nor is it the most important thing that you should find a church that agrees with my views. The most important thing to find is a church that is what a church should be, and that is a family obedient to Christ, you know, worshiping God, loving each other, committed to each other. To me, the best feature of any Christian church will be measured in the quality of its community. That is the community dynamics of the congregation. How much are they loving each other? How much are they helping each other? How much are they cooperating together? How much are they a family? How much are they a community striving together to carry on the kingdom of God? That dynamic can exist in virtually any denomination, but that’s just the point. It’s not a denominational position. It’s more of a difference between Christians and non-Christians or spiritual Christians and carnal ones. So my thought is that you do well just to look for a family of God that loves each other, and that, of course, they should love the Word of God too. They might see things differently than I do, and that’s okay because the Bible never told anyone they had to see things the way I do. That’s not one of the requirements of being a good Christian. So I wish I could help you. I wish I could direct you someplace that’s 100% what I’m looking for myself. I myself go to a house church. I’m out of time for today’s program, though. I wish it was not. You’ve been listening to The Narrow Path. We are listener-supported. If you’d like to write to us, the address is The Narrow Path, PO Box 1730, Temecula, California, 92593. The website is thenarrowpath.com. Thanks for joining us.
