In this enriching episode, discover the diverse biblical interpretations that shape our understanding of prophecy, salvation, and eternal life. Engage in thoughtful discussions on preterist and dispensational views and reflect on how different theological perspectives can influence one’s spiritual journey. As Steve Gregg navigates these compelling conversations, listeners are encouraged to think critically about their own beliefs and how they interact with scriptural teachings.
SPEAKER 1 :
Thank you.
SPEAKER 03 :
Good afternoon, and welcome to the Narrow Path radio broadcast. My name is Steve Gregg, and we’re live for a commercial-free hour for you to call in. And if you have questions about the Bible, you can ask those. We’ll talk about those on the air. If you see things somewhat differently than the host, have a different viewpoint, maybe the exact opposite viewpoint about anything, feel free to call. We’ll be glad to talk about that as well. The number to call is 844- 484-5737. That’s 844-484-5737. Now, I have a couple of announcements I want to make. One is for the people in Southern California, and the other is for people in the Midwest. We’ve got lots of listeners both those places. This Saturday night in Buena Park, In Southern California, I will be giving a talk, giving an overview of the entire book of Revelation. And so that’s this Saturday night at 6 o’clock in Buena Park, in the usual place, because we’ve been holding these meetings for many years now, usually once a month. They get interrupted once in a while by my travels. But there are people who have been coming to those meetings for probably 10 years. Anyway, that’s this Saturday in Boynton Park overview of the Book of Revelation. Information is found at our website, thenarrowpath.com, under announcements. The other announcement is I’ll be speaking in Michigan, Indiana, and Illinois, a variety of places, for our 11 days next month, from August 16th through August 26th. August 16th through August 26th. I’ll be in all three of those states going about different places each night. And if you’d like to join us at any of those gatherings, find out where they are, go to our website again, thenarrowpath.com, look under announcements, and that’s where you’ll discover everything you need to know if you are in the area and wish to join us at any of these gatherings. All right, we’re going to talk first of all to Joshua today in Venice, Florida. Joshua, welcome to The Narrow Path. Thanks for calling.
SPEAKER 11 :
Hey, Steve. Yeah, I’ve been listening to you for about five years, and I sure appreciate all your stuff you’ve got going on because it just helped me grow a lot and just to deny myself and really live for the Lord and grasp the concept of what he wants from us, and plus it’s my desire anyway. But anyways, so my question, I got a Bible question, and I got a Christian brother and sister relationship, like that kind of question. So anyways, with my Bible question, so I’m in the same scenario like you had with your wife. Anyways, unfaithful. And I was going to never divorce her and wait until she was a so-called Christian, worship leader, all this, that. And just out of the blue, so crazy. She said she had zero love for me. Turns around, lets me walk around for three weeks like that. Then I caught her. Then I understood why. Because I seen her phone the whole time. I never thought she would. So I never thought that. I even asked her twice. So anyways, my question is, you know, I’m worried about her eternity. And she’s going to go ahead and go through with the divorce. And she knows the truth. And I can’t believe, you know, and there’s really no reason for her to – there’s zero reason for her to leave me. And so anyways, so in Hebrews 10, it says that God will judge his people. I know that’s Old Testament too, like I think. And so – When he says he’ll judge his people, now only his people are Christians, right?
SPEAKER 03 :
Yes.
SPEAKER 11 :
Okay. So then it turns around and says then they’re in danger for fiery hell, this, that, this. So is it his people or is it not his people? I understand that she’s, what’s that word called, done with the faith, ostracized or whatever.
SPEAKER 03 :
Apostate.
SPEAKER 11 :
Yeah, apostate.
SPEAKER 03 :
Well, let me jump in here. First of all, when you say your situation is like mine, of course you’re talking about my previous marriage. My marriage is not like that now. I’ve got a wonderful marriage. But, yeah, I had a 20-year marriage where my wife behaved just about the way you’re describing. And she did divorce and left the children and me behind. And we have not had – I haven’t heard from her since, really, to talk to. But that was 25 years ago. Anyway, I can feel your pain, certainly. Now, you seem to be wondering if your wife will have lost her salvation because of what Hebrews chapter 10 says. When it says the Lord will judge his people, now, in the context, the writer of Hebrews is talking about the judgment of those who had been God’s people, the Jews, and that those who are Jewish believers… who fall away, and that’s what he’s describing there in that passage, will be judged for it. But, of course, God doesn’t judge Jews or Gentiles differently from each other. In fact, that’s one of the main teachings of Paul in Romans chapter 2. And basically he says it doesn’t matter whether you’re Jew or Gentile. If you seek righteousness and all the right things, you’ll receive eternal life and blessing and all that. if you’re a Jew or if you’re a Gentile, because God has no preference about Jews and Gentiles, he says. And then he says the same thing about if you pursue sin, you know, no matter who you are, if you pursue sin, you’ll receive judgment and wrath. And he said Jews and Gentiles both, because he says God has no preference about Jews and Gentiles. That’s all in Romans 2, verses 5 through 10. So, you know, being Jewish, certainly Hebrews has talked to Jewish believers who are becoming apostate. But Jewish believers are just like any other believers. There’s no Jew or Gentile in Christ. Once you’re in Christ, it’s just that he happens to be addressing an audience that happens to be Jewish and who probably are thinking that being Jewish somehow gives them a leg up, gives them some kind of immunity. Being Jewish makes them especially God’s people. And he quotes from the Old Testament and says God will judge his people. Now, but it’s not just the Jewish people, the Jewish believers that need to be concerned about that. That’s every believer. Peter wrote in 1 Peter chapter 1, he says, and he’s not speaking to Jewish believers particularly, but the churches, which are made up of Jews and Gentiles who believe. And to all of them, he says in 1 Peter 1.17, if you call on the Father, who without partiality judges according to each one’s work, Now, without partiality means he doesn’t have any categories, Jew or Gentile or anything that he favors. He has no partiality. You call God your father. You know that without partiality, he’s going to judge everyone according to his work. Conduct yourselves throughout the time of your sojourning here in fear. Now, he’s writing to Christians who call God their father and who know that God’s going to judge everyone according to their works. He says, therefore, you better pass the time of your sojourning here in fear. Now, that doesn’t mean we walk around feeling… intrepidation and fearful all the time. The fear of God doesn’t mean that you are literally experiencing the emotion of fear all the time, but that you would fear to do anything that would put you on the wrong side of the judgment. Now, if you’re following Christ, you live without a really awareness of that fear simply because you’re not doing anything that would put you at odds with God. Perfect love casts out fear in that sense. If you’re living in perfect love, you’re not doing anything that you’re going to feel afraid to see God about. But if you’re disobeying God, you better be afraid. And it doesn’t matter if you call yourself a Christian or not. Now, we have to realize a lot of people call themselves Christians. Your wife, I think she says she’s a worship leader and things like that. Yeah, well, that doesn’t mean anything. Remember, Jesus said, not everyone who says to me, Lord, Lord, will enter the kingdom of heaven, but those who do the will of my Father in heaven. He said, many will say to me, Lord, we prophesied in your name. We cast out demons in your name. We did many mighty works in your name. We led worship teams in your name. He says, and I will say to you, I never knew you. Depart from me, you workers of iniquity. So, I mean, to have some kind of resume that says, I did these Christian things in Christ’s name, and therefore I should be okay with God. No, to many, and maybe someone like your wife, I don’t know. To many, he will say, I never knew you. It’s not that you call me Lord that gets you through. It’s that you do the will of my Father in heaven. And divorcing, having affairs, these kinds of things are not the will of your Father. In fact, they are so much not the will of your Father that there would have been a death penalty for that under the law to get involved in relationships outside your marriage. and leave your husband for someone. Now, when you make wedding vows, you’re promising to be faithful until you die. And what’s more, if your wedding was a Christian one, in every case I know of, people who are Christians who get married say they swear this in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. So they’re swearing in the name of God that they will be faithful for life. And to fail to do so… is to take the name of the Lord in vain. And the Bible says God will not hold him guiltless who takes his name in vain. You take God’s name on your lips in making a vow, and you break that vow. It says in Ecclesiastes 5.1 and following, it says when you come into the house of the Lord, he means to make vows, let your words be few. He says better that you don’t take a vow than that you take a vow and break it. He says God has no pleasure in fools, he says. So, I mean, when people make vows… to other people, whether it’s in the name of God or not, because Jesus said you should let your yea be yea and your nay nay, whether you take a vow or not. But especially when someone has vowed in the name of God, and they say, oh yeah, well that doesn’t mean anything to me anymore, I don’t feel like it. That is, that is, it’s common. It’s commonplace. But the fact that it’s common doesn’t mean it’s not terrifying to stand before God with that kind of rebellion against him. And it doesn’t matter whether you said a sinner’s prayer at some time or another. There’s no guarantee that you were saved in the first place. In the Bible, nobody got saved by saying a sinner’s prayer. They got saved by following Jesus. And Jesus said, if you continue in my words, that means you stay obedient. If you continue in my words, you’re my disciples indeed. and that you’ll know the truth, and the truth will make you free. So, I mean, I don’t have any real reason to believe your wife is saved at this point. And some people say, well, once saved, always saved. Well, if you think that way, you still have to decide, was she once saved? Just because someone says they’re saved or says, Lord, Lord, doesn’t mean they’re saved. And many people say that a person like your wife proves by departure from God and from you Proves that she wasn’t saved in the first place. I can’t say that. Maybe she was, maybe she wasn’t, because I don’t believe in that once saved, always saved thing. I believe some people do follow God for a while, and then they just kind of get weary of it, and they’re interested in something else, and they leave God behind. Well, they’re not saved anymore. You can’t walk away from Jesus and still be saved. Jesus is salvation. This life is in his son. He that has the son has life. He that does not have the Son of God does not have life. So you walk away from Jesus, and that’s what you do when you decide you’re not going to obey Jesus anymore. You made promises, and Jesus told you to keep those promises. You say, ah, I don’t think so. I don’t think I’ll do that anymore. Well, you’re walking away. There’s no way you can do that without walking away from Jesus. That is walking away from Jesus. So I don’t mean to be harsh on your wife. She’s not special. This is true of anybody. And I’m sorry to hear that your wife is in this condition today. hopefully she will repent. If she does not, and you’re wondering if she’s a Christian or not, well, I don’t know. If she doesn’t repent, she certainly is no Christian. And I’m sorry to hear that. And I’m not the judge. Jesus is, and he’s the one who said that stuff.
SPEAKER 11 :
Yes, sir. I have that one other question, though.
SPEAKER 03 :
Okay.
SPEAKER 11 :
Can you hear me?
SPEAKER 03 :
Yes, go ahead.
SPEAKER 11 :
Okay, so the elder, the like elder ladies in our church, anyways, she does business with them. And everyone can’t believe it, you know. And then I know there’s places in the Bible and saying that, I’ll get to you, but anyway, you know it. Anyway, they say that, you know, you don’t have no business with them. Treat them like heathens. Well, I understand heathens, you treat them good. Anyway, they’re heathens. But what I’m saying is that shouldn’t some ladies turn their back, you know, try to talk to her, and if she doesn’t want to repent, go ahead and turn their back on her until the church did? My church did it, thank goodness.
SPEAKER 03 :
The church did what? Did they exercise church discipline?
SPEAKER 11 :
Yeah, I had a great church. But, yeah, they weren’t going to let her back in. We went like three times. And then she finally went off with the guy and not repent. So she never even showed back up because she knows that she wasn’t going to get allowed in.
SPEAKER 03 :
Well, if the church is practicing church discipline, that’s a good thing. Not enough churches do that now. But as far as the older ladies who do business with her, I don’t – I think that they should, well, I mean, when you’re doing secular business with somebody, you do business with Christians and non-Christians. To treat her like a non-Christian would not mean you don’t do business with her. It would mean, though, that you don’t treat her as if she’s a fellow Christian. But, you know, you may do business with any number of people that you’re not pretending that they’re fellow Christians and they don’t claim to be. So, I mean, I would say that it’s not that people have to stop doing business with her, but it does seem like if they care for her soul, they should speak to her about it. You know, they should speak to her about it. They may feel like she wouldn’t listen. And, of course, everyone has to make their own judgment call about that. I mean, when you’re. When you’re talking to somebody who’s compromised, you know, and they’ve already been disciplined by the church and stuff, it may be that you just, in many cases, people just say, well, I don’t have anything new to say to them. But I would, you know, I do think that the older ladies can be, may help the situation if they would speak to her about this and let them know that they don’t approve it. Here’s what Paul said in 2 Thessalonians 3 in verses 14 and 15. This is 2 Thessalonians 3, 14 and 15. Paul said, if anyone does not obey our word by this epistle, note that person. Do not keep company with him that he may be ashamed. Yet do not count him as an enemy, but admonish him, which means warn him as a brother. So you don’t hang out with people like that. You don’t fellowship with them. But you don’t treat them like enemies. You warn them. You verbally admonish them as you would. Go ahead.
SPEAKER 11 :
But then the Lord says to cast them away, to have Satan to deal with it, and then to save their soul. Like, that’s what I’m getting at. You know that verse I’m talking about?
SPEAKER 03 :
Yeah, it’s 1 Corinthians 5. In 1 Corinthians 5, that’s talking about church discipline also. This was a man who was living in obnoxious immorality. And he was to be put out of the church. And that’s what it means to deliver him over to Satan. It’s not some kind of hocus-pocus thing you do. It’s not putting a curse on him. Delivering him to Satan means you exclude them from the fellowship of Christ, of the church. They’re excluding themselves by sinning and not repenting. So you don’t pretend like they belong there anymore. You put them out. You don’t let them be part of that fellowship. And by doing that, you’re putting them out of the protection of the body of Christ and into the world of the devil to let him do what he will with them. That’s what he means to deliver them over to Satan. And Paul does say, you know, for the destruction of the flesh, I personally think this just means that, you know, Satan will, you know, beat them up, you know, in the way that he beats up anyone. He chews people up and spits them out. And he says so that, Paul says so that their soul will be saved. In the day of Christ, the idea is to bring them to repentance, obviously. This is not out of meanness. This is like disciplining a child. It may seem mean to discipline a child, but an undisciplined child will remain uncorrected and will grow up to be monstrous. You ruin a child’s life by not disciplining them. The Bible says discipline them. You know, if you love them, he that spares the rod hates his son. You know, the idea is to turn the child around. Now, people sometimes act like children. Your wife would be insulted if you spoke of her as a child. She’s acting as stupid as a child when she’s doing these kinds of things. And the church disciplines them. You can’t take her over your knee. That can’t be done with an adult person. But the church can say, you’re not one of us until you are one of us again. And what we are as sinners who have repented and given up our life of sin. You are at this moment a sinner who has not repented and not given up your life of sin. So you’re not in the same fellowship. You’re not in the body of Christ until you do. That’s what church discipline implies. Brother, I’m so sorry that you’re going through this. I need to take another call. We’ve been talking the whole program to you about this.
SPEAKER 11 :
Appreciate it, brother.
SPEAKER 03 :
God bless you, Joshua. I’m sorry about this situation. Barbara from Roseville, Michigan. Welcome to The Narrow Path.
SPEAKER 01 :
Oh, hi, and thank you, Steve. My question is on, I have two different questions, but Luke chapter number 16, verse 12, it always seems like that scripture should be written just the opposite. It says, and if ye have not been faithful in that which is another man’s, who will give you that which is your own? And unless I’m missing something, that always seems backward. And then my other question has to deal with, like, revelations when Jesus comes back and, you know, we go to heaven. But then do we go to heaven or do we come back and do all this fighting and killing and shedding blood? I’m missing something in terms of. how this is supposed to work because I thought it was supposed to be no more crying, no more dying, and then I read all this fighting and killing and shedding blood and following him around. I just want to see if I’m missing something there, if you can kind of lay that out kind of simple. And I’ll just hang up and listen.
SPEAKER 03 :
Oh, great. Thanks for your call.
SPEAKER 01 :
Okay, thank you. Bye. Bye.
SPEAKER 03 :
Well, I don’t see anything in the Bible about people fighting and killing and doing that kind of stuff after Jesus comes back. But when Jesus comes back, he puts down all his enemies in a moment in the twinkle of an eye. And then he makes new heaven and new earth where righteousness dwells. And there’s none of those kinds of things there. We are not taken to heaven before that unless we die. Now, if we die, we do go to heaven and we await the time there until Jesus will return and raise our bodies and plant us in the new earth. But it’s really not us who’s doing any killing. It’s just he comes, and the Bible says he comes with flaming fire, taking vengeance on those who do not know God and who don’t obey the gospel. So they’re pretty burned up by the brightness of his appearing, it says in 2 Thessalonians 1, verse 8, and also chapter 2. It talks about that. So, yeah, I don’t believe there’s any killing that we’ll be involved in after we’ve died and gone to heaven. Now, as far as Luke 16, 12, this is at the end of a parable about a steward who was managing goods entrusted to him by his master or employer. And he had misused them. And so he was fired. But he wasn’t fired immediately. He was warned that he was being fired. He is given a few days to go, you know, get his books and accounts together and turn in the books. And so that was going to take a few days. So he knew he had only a couple days maybe left. So he used that time to use his position as the steward of this man’s possessions and And to go out and ingratiate people to him, to go to those who owed his master money and give them a break, give them a discount, to close their accounts with a discounted payment so that they’d like him. And so when he was fired, they would invite him to come stay with them, which is something he knew he’s going to need when he’s fired. So the whole idea is that our lives are like that. Our lives were entrusted with the management of God’s stuff. But, you know, we don’t have much time, and we should use our opportunities. to make way for a long-term home for ourselves, which he talks about in explaining the parable, to use your money to make friends who will welcome you into eternal habitations, he says. So he’s talking about in the next life, you’ll be welcomed into an eternal habitation if you have used the opportunity you have now to ingratiate yourself to that environment and to those there, which is simply saying make good use of your time and your opportunities because you’re going to have to give an account of it and you’re going to want to have a welcome into essentially the heaven or into God’s new world. Now, when Jesus said in that place at the end of it, If you have not been faithful in what is another man’s, who will give you what is your own? The impression here is that God wants to give us stuff that’s our own, that is, in the next life. And there are other parables of Jesus that talk about stewards when their master comes back and says, Oh, you did a good job. You took care of my stuff well. You managed it well, so I’m going to give you your own stuff now. You’re going to have your own position of authority now. You’re not just going to be my servant. You’re going to be given responsibility and, you know, rulership. That’s at least two other parables, the parable of the talents, which is, of course, in Matthew 25, and the parable of the pounds, which is, I believe, in Luke 19. Both of them make that point. This parable makes a similar point. The point is that right now, our time, our money, our wealth, you know, our abilities, our opportunities, those belong to God. They’re not ours. We are managers. We’re stewards of them. And he’s looking for people who will manage them well, because if we do manage what is not our own, that is what he owns and he’s entrusted to us to manage for him, if we don’t manage it well, why would he give us anything of our own to take care of? If we can’t take care of stuff in this vetting period in our lifetime, Why would he give us eternal stuff to manage and to own, which we have not shown ourselves responsible enough to be entrusted with? So that’s what he’s talking about. He’s talking about in this life, the things we are handling and managing, the things we’re investing. These are all God’s things. They’re not ours. We are his servants. We’re his stewards. We’re taking care of his stuff. And if we do well, the time will come where he says, Great, well done, good and faithful servant. You were faithful in these things. Now rule over five cities. Now you rule over ten cities. You’re going to have your own dominion if you’ve done well under his dominion, is pretty much what that statement is referring to. Well, sister, I appreciate your call. We have a break coming up. We also have another half hour coming up, so don’t go away. We have most of our lines full, and we will get to these calls soon. in the next half hour. The Narrow Path is a listener-supported ministry. We pay a lot of money to be on the radio. We have no source of income except listener support. If you’d like to help us, you can go to our website, thenarrowpath.com, and check it out under donations there. Everything’s free there at thenarrowpath.com. I’ll be back in 30 seconds. Don’t go away.
SPEAKER 02 :
The book of Hebrews tells us do not forget to do good and to share with others. So let’s all do good and share The Narrow Path with Steve Gregg with family and friends. When the show is over today, tell one and all to go to thenarrowpath.com where they can study, learn, and enjoy with free topical audio teachings, blog articles, verse-by-verse teachings, and archives of all The Narrow Path radio shows. And be sure to tell them to tune into the show right here on the radio. Share listeners supported The Narrow Path with Steve Gregg. Share and do good.
SPEAKER 03 :
Welcome back to the Narrow Path radio broadcast. My name is Steve Gregg, and we’re live for another half hour, taking your calls. If you’ve got questions about the Bible, or if you have a difference of opinion from the host, you want to call and talk about these things, you may do so. At the moment, it may be that our lines are full. It looks like it to me. But if you call in a few minutes, it may be that a line will have opened. It happens all the time. The number is 844-484-5737. That’s 844-484-5737. Our next caller is Kerry from Fort Worth, Texas. Hi, Kerry. Welcome to The Narrow Path. Hi, Steve. Just a quick comment before my question. Hiya.
SPEAKER 10 :
Just before your program started, I heard that John MacArthur had passed away.
SPEAKER 03 :
Yes.
SPEAKER 10 :
And while I’m not a Calvinist or a dispensationalist, I recognize him as a man of God and that he will be missed.
SPEAKER 03 :
He left many resources behind to the body of Christ, although I do disagree with his Calvinism and his dispensationalism and his cessationism. Nonetheless, he wrote many, many books, probably well over 50 books, I would think, and there’s a lot of good stuff in them. Some of those books are really excellent.
SPEAKER 10 :
Yeah, my question is that I guess – I would classify myself as a historic premillennialist. But I’m kind of wrestling with the premillennial side of this now. And kind of as you spoke to one of the previous callers, that Christ, when he comes back on the last day, it’s the last day for everybody, that he’s going to raise the good and the bad. And it’ll be the last day for everybody. So I’m finding it hard to find where they justify any type of population for this millennial reign of Christ. Where do they find this?
SPEAKER 03 :
That’s a very good point. Right. What you’re talking about, for the sake of those who don’t know these doctrines, the premillennial view that you’re talking about holds that when Jesus comes back, he will inaugurate on this planet a reign of himself and his saints for a thousand years. But he and the saints will be reigning over people who are not Christians. But this is after Jesus comes back. So how could these people be there? Well, as I pointed out to the previous caller, when Jesus comes back, he’s coming flaming fire, taking vengeance on those who don’t know God. and who do not obey the gospel. That’s 2 Thessalonians 1.8. And therefore, we can say it doesn’t seem to leave much room for unbelievers to pass from that point on into a peaceable kingdom for a thousand years, only to rebel again at the end of a thousand years, according to that interpretation of Revelation 20. That became a problem to me when I was premillennial. And it wasn’t the only thing, maybe not even the main thing, but it certainly was one thing that bothered me as a premillennialist because it didn’t seem to be that the Bible allows the survival of people who are not believers at the time of the coming of Christ. It says in the beginning of 1 Thessalonians 5 that he will, you know, when they say peace and safety, you know, sudden destruction will come upon them. And I believe he’s talking about the second coming there. So they’re going to be destroyed. Anyway, that is problematic. Now, dispensationalists sometimes have taken the story of the sheep and the goats. And, you know, Jesus said in Matthew 25, beginning at verse 31 to verse 46, that when the Son of Man shall come in his glory and all his holy angels with him, that he’ll sit on the throne of his glory, he’ll gather all the nations to him and separate between them as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. And the sheep will go into eternal life at the end of that, and the goats into eternal judgment, it says. Now, in the story, the sheep are people who treated his brethren well, and the goats are those who did not treat his brethren well. That’s the essence of the story. The sheep who are saved are people who treated his brethren well. Now, dispensationalism… often says, I mean, almost all the dispensations I know say this, although I’ve met some who, to their credit, don’t accept this idea. They think that the brethren that Jesus is talking about are the Jews, and that the nations that treated the Jews well… will be going into the millennial kingdom. And that the nations that did not treat the Jews well will be going directly into eternal punishment. So they think that the sheep and the goats parable is talking about which nations, because he’ll gather all the nations before him. And it’s saying which nations are going to be going into the millennium and which nations will be going later. into hell, actually. Now, that’s a dispensational idea, and they would say, therefore, there will be nations in the millennium, those nations that treated the Jews well. But the truth is that when Paul talks about those who will be destroyed at the coming of Christ, it’s those who have not obeyed the gospel. Okay? Well, if they haven’t obeyed the gospel, they’re not Christians. And nations, if they are Christians, there’s not a question of their salvation. But If we’re talking about nations that treated Christians well, then, well, what nations have done that consistently? Jesus said to his disciples, they’ll be persecuted by all nations. They’ll be hated by all nations for his name’s sake in Mark 13. And so I just, you know, I don’t see it that way at all. And in the story of the sheep and the goats, the sheep are not going into a thousand-year millennial reign necessarily. They’re going into eternal life, and the goats into eternal punishment. There’s no mention of a thousand-year interval anywhere in this story, or anywhere else in the Scripture, by the way. The only place in the Scripture that mentions a thousand years is Revelation 20, and it does not describe it as an interval. After Jesus comes back, that’s how many people interpret it. But that’s not the way the church throughout history mostly understood it, nor is it the way that I think is best understood. So it’s definitely, you know, the millennial question has always been controversial. And I don’t think that Matthew 25 is saying that there are certain nations that as a whole, as nations who go into the millennium, though they weren’t Christians because they treated the Jews well. Um, you know, the, none of the people in, in that story are said to go into a thousand year millennial reign. Uh, so, you know, the, the general teaching of scripture is that, uh, you know, it won’t be well for those who don’t know Christ when he comes back. And, uh, the idea that a whole bunch of unbelievers will, will go unscathed into a millennial reign where they’re lived under in peace for a thousand years until the devil’s list again. Um, I don’t know. To my mind, that just doesn’t fit the narrative of Scripture. Some people have no problem with it. I used to believe it, but I certainly have problems with it now. Now that I don’t feel the same obligation to believe it, I once did. So, I understand your problem.
SPEAKER 10 :
Well, I’m certainly wrestling with it.
SPEAKER 03 :
All right. Good talking to you, Kerry. God bless. Okay, we’re going to talk next to Kimberly in Sacramento, California. Kimberly, welcome to The Narrow Path. Thanks for calling.
SPEAKER 12 :
Hi, Steve. Hi. Kenny, okay, so I have you on speakerphone. I have a question regarding preterists. I’m doing a Bible study. I’ve been saved 40 years, so this is the first time I’ve ever studied. Let me just give you the name of the book. You might know it. The Book of Revelation, Volume 1, Judgment on First Century Israel by Brad Robertson. Are you familiar with that book?
SPEAKER 03 :
I don’t know that book, but I’m certainly familiar with the position, though. Yeah.
SPEAKER 12 :
Okay, so my question in this study is… I don’t see how, okay, so I don’t see how the rapture plays out with the preterist view. And I’m sure, I really believe that you know the view of that.
SPEAKER 03 :
Well, we have to understand the preterist view just means the view that prophecy has been fulfilled in the past. And there’s two different kinds of, actually, I’d say there’s three kinds of preterists. The smallest number is I believe, are the full preterists. And they believe all prophecy has been fulfilled. They believe Jesus came back. The final judgment occurred. They believe there’s a new heavens and a new earth already. They don’t believe Jesus is coming back again or there will be a judgment or a resurrection again. They believe everything has been fulfilled. Of course, not literally. They take it all spiritually. But to my mind, it’s a heretical view. It’s just really, it’s not a view with merit. In fact, I wrote a 300-page book refuting that called Why Not? Full Preterism. But full preterism is a new view. It only arose in the 1970s. And yet it’s kind of an Internet phenomenon. You’ll meet people who are elsewhere than on the Internet who believe it, but it’s It spread pretty much through the Internet, like most modern heresies. So, anyway, there’s that kind of preterism, which they would have no place for the rapture. They would say, at least not in the future, they would say a rapture of some kind happened in 70 A.D. Now, some full preterists would say there actually was a literal rapture then. And all the Christians were taken away. Then Christianity had to start from scratch the next day, which is kind of an absurd doctrine, it seems to me. And the other is that the rapture occurred, but it wasn’t the literal thing that we think of the rapture. It was more of a spiritual thing. And I don’t agree with that either. The full preterism view, in my opinion, is just wrong. Now, there’s two other kinds of preterists, and we call both of them partial preterists. A partial preterist would be somebody who believes that part of the Bible’s prophecies have been fulfilled in the past. And all Christians believe that, because all Christians believe that Jesus fulfilled a bunch of prophecies, and they were fulfilled in the past now, from our point of view. So you take a preterist view of those prophecies that you think were fulfilled in the past. When someone calls themselves a partial preterist, they usually are being a little more precise than that. They’re not just saying, like all Christians, I believe some prophecy has been fulfilled in the past. Usually a partial preterist takes the view that the book of Revelation has been fulfilled in the past, and the Olivet Discourse has been fulfilled in the past, and applies it to AD 70. So you’re right, a partial preterist, just like a full preterist, thinks that Revelation was fulfilled in AD 70, and that that’s what the Olivet Discourse is about, too. Now, because of that, they don’t believe that there’s any rapture mentioned in the book of Revelation or in the Olivet Discourse. But that doesn’t mean they don’t believe in a future second coming and a rapture. Actually, the rapture doctrine comes from books other than Revelation. It comes from 1 Corinthians 15, and it comes from 1 Thessalonians 4. 1 Thessalonians 4, 16 through 18 is the clearest passage about the rapture. And 1 Corinthians 15, beginning around, I don’t know, verse 51 or so, also alludes to the rapture and the resurrection. So a partial preterist, let’s just say your typical partial preterist, will say Revelation is primarily about A.D. 70. It may or may not. It probably doesn’t have any reference to the rapture in it. The same thing with the Olivet Discourse, Matthew 24. They’d say it’s fulfilled in 70 AD and the rapture is not mentioned in it. But that doesn’t mean they don’t believe in the second coming of Christ or the rapture. It just means they find it in other parts of the Bible. They just don’t think those parts are talking about that. Now, that shouldn’t be offensive to anybody because, let’s just say, I don’t believe the rapture is mentioned in the book of Amos anywhere. Now, if someone finds a verse there, they think it’s about the rapture in the future, I guess that’s fine. But it shouldn’t be shocking to people that I think there are books of the Bible that don’t mention the rapture. And if I would say Revelation is one of those books, and the Olivet Discourse is one of those places that don’t mention the rapture, that has nothing to do with whether I believe in a future rapture or not. I would look especially at the parts of the Bible that talk about that. And not all parts do. So a partial preterist usually will believe that much of these popular end times passages are not really about the end times at all. They were fulfilled in A.D. 70, but some of them were not fulfilled in A.D. 70. Some of them are going to be fulfilled in the future, including the resurrection and the rapture and the end of the world, the final judgment, the second coming of Christ visibly from heaven. Partial preterists usually believe in that stuff, and they just aren’t going to get it from Revelation. So you could take a preterist view of the book of Revelation. and still believe everything about the end of time, that a person would take, you know, who just read, you know, the epistles of Paul, which would be pretty much the same. When I was a dispensationalist, you know, what I believed would happen, I believed that there’s going to be, when Jesus comes back, there’s going to be things like the rapture, the resurrection, you know, there’ll be, you know, a judgment, things like that. I still believe that. My… The particulars about that are different in my mind. But becoming a partial preterist about Revelation or all the discourse wouldn’t have any necessary impact on believing in those things.
SPEAKER 12 :
Right. Can I share with you what my preterist teacher said real quick? Okay. Okay. Okay, so she says, I believe the rapture was during the time that Jesus resurrected, and then all of those that had died in faith before he died were caught up to be with the Lord. People that died before Jesus’ resurrection went into Hades until Jesus died and was the first fruit that went into heaven.
SPEAKER 03 :
Well, I need to jump in here and just say I think she’s confused. That’s… There’s no way that Paul in 1 Thessalonians 4 was predicting the resurrection of Christ and things at that time, since Jesus had not only resurrected but ascended to heaven 20 years before he wrote that book. So he’s predicting the resurrection. He’s predicting the rapture. He’s not predicting something that happened 20 years before he predicted it. He’s talking about something that was future from his standpoint. So I think she’s a little confused, and maybe preterism is new to her. Maybe she’s just kind of making it up as she goes along. But, I mean, there’s lots of different views out there by people who are futurists and different views by people who are preterists and so forth. But that particular point, I don’t think it’s even possible, given the biblical data. Listen, I’ve got lots of people waiting and not much time left. I need to take another call, but I hope that’s helpful to you, Kimberly.
SPEAKER 11 :
Thank you.
SPEAKER 03 :
Thank you. Okay, we’re going to talk next to Jared from Winters, California. Jared, welcome. Thanks for calling.
SPEAKER 07 :
Hey, Steve, how’s it going? Good. Hey, so my question is on… At the Last Supper, when Jesus handed Judas over the dish with the bread and allowed Satan to enter him, why do you think he did that? Why did he hand him the sock? No, but why did he allow Satan to enter him? Because isn’t that when he handed him the bread, and that’s when he allowed Satan to enter Judas? Am I getting that wrong?
SPEAKER 03 :
Well, I don’t think it was Jesus that allowed that to happen. I think it was Judas that allowed that to happen. John was sitting next to Jesus at the table. Peter was sitting on the other side of John, one seat removed from Jesus. When Jesus said, somebody here is going to betray me, Peter apparently whispered to John, who was closer to Jesus than he was, Ask him who it is. And so John whispered to Jesus, who is it, Lord? And to John, apparently very quietly, Jesus said, the one that I’m going to give the bread to right now. And, you know, no one else apparently heard it, or else they would have jumped on Judas and beaten him to death, probably. Okay. But, you know, Jesus revealed this to John and said, okay, you want to know who it is? I’ll give the bread to him right now. And so he did. Now, he gave the bread to Judas so that John now knew that Judas was the one, but we don’t know that anyone else at the table did. Now, we’re told that Satan entered Judas at that time. Well… That’s true, but it doesn’t say that Jesus made that happen.
SPEAKER 07 :
Okay. Perfect. Thank you for clarifying that.
SPEAKER 03 :
Appreciate it. Okay, Jerry. Thanks for your call. Good talking to you. All right. Our next caller is Richard from Reno Valley, California. Several California callers today. Hi, Richard. Welcome.
SPEAKER 08 :
Hey, how are you doing? Steve, hey, I’m calling again with dire report or dialogue. My niece had four cardiac arrests last night. She’s not doing well. They had an operation to take something that was on her kidney, and while they were doing that, she went into seizure. And because of that, they had to stop, and then her heart stopped beating.
SPEAKER 03 :
Brother, let me just say this. I’ve got less than 10 minutes, and I’ve got a lot of people waiting. Could you get to your question?
SPEAKER 08 :
I’m very sorry to hear about this about your niece. Yes. Go ahead. Thank you, sir. Okay, to my question. She is not safe. She does believe in Jesus, but she is not safe. I have my nephew, Christian brother, my Christian nephew, her brother, who is there in Texas, and I’m in Moreno Valley. I need to know what my… Christian Brother needs to say to her, ask her, and do what he needs to do to get her saved. She is conscious? She’s conscious. She cannot speak, but she can nod. She acknowledged that her mother was in the room.
SPEAKER 03 :
All right, all right. Listen, I know this is heavy on your heart, but I can’t have the long version of it. It’s just we won’t have time. I’ll be cut off here. What should he say? He should talk to her about Jesus. If you’re asking what specific words he should say, I’ve never had a packaged program for talking to people about Jesus. Some people do. Some people have a packaged presentation. I don’t think Jesus did or the apostles. I think they just spoke as the Spirit guided them. So I would say he should pray and ask God to give him wisdom and the words to speak and to make her heart receptive and for him to speak to her about who Jesus is, what he did, and what her response to him should be. Assuming he’s a Christian, he would know those answers. I’m very sorry to hear about this. I don’t mean to be rude and cut you off, but we’ve got a whole bunch of lines to call and not very much time left. And I can’t do anything for her. But I will say maybe a lot of people will be praying for her here. A lot of people don’t know about it now. Thank you. It’s a terrible story, of course. Let’s talk to Bob in Roseville, California. Bob, welcome.
SPEAKER 05 :
Hi, Steve. How are you doing?
SPEAKER 03 :
I’m fine. Go ahead.
SPEAKER 05 :
Yeah, so I saw something last night that rattled me to my core. And I had always thought that the two witnesses spoken about in Revelation was a metaphorical reference to the church. Okay. And what I saw yesterday, it blew my mind, completely blew my mind.
SPEAKER 03 :
Okay, no lead up. We’re running out of time. Just tell me what you’re talking about. Go ahead.
SPEAKER 05 :
So the two witnesses are actually here now. And I saw one of them.
SPEAKER 03 :
Okay. Yeah, they’ve contacted me before, or at least some of them have. Listen, they’re not here now. There’s not two witnesses here now. I’ve had Enoch contact me and told me Elijah was going to show up soon. I’ve had two witnesses pick me up when I was hitchhiking in their Volkswagen, a couple of hippies. They told me they were the two witnesses. I’ve met the two witnesses on many occasions. It’s just not the same people. This is, you know, meeting somebody and saying this is one of the two witnesses is not as powerful as saying the Bible teaches such and such about the two witnesses. And that’s where I go with. I’m sorry to cut you off, but, I mean, I don’t see a question there. I see you just trying to tell me something you experienced, and right now we’ve got people to talk to who have questions. Thank you for your call. Alfredo from Tampa, Florida. Welcome.
SPEAKER 06 :
Hey, how you doing, Steve? Thank you for taking my call. Just a quick question real quick on Ezekiel 3627. A lot of the ones saved always saved people. They use the scripture to say that you can’t use your salvation, and they specifically focus on that word cause. I will cause you to walk in my statutes. So I was just wondering, how can I respond to that? to people that use that scripture.
SPEAKER 03 :
Well, it says, I will put my spirit within you and cause you to walk in my statutes, and you will keep my judgments and do them. Yeah, he’s talking about giving his spirit to those who are believers, those who’ve repented of their sins. I mean, he doesn’t give his spirit to other people than that. The spirit is given only to followers of Christ. That’s, in fact, a mark of being a genuine Christian, is that God has given you his spirit. And a follower of Christ is someone who has decided they want to follow Christ. But without the Spirit, they can’t do it. But the Holy Spirit is given to us to cause us to be able to do that, to follow Him, which is what we desire to do. The Holy Spirit enables us. The Bible says if we walk in the Spirit, we will not fulfill the desires of the flesh. The Bible says as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the children of God. So, People who are truly born of God, born of the Spirit, have been given the Spirit, and He causes us to be successful in our endeavor to follow Him, something that we had no power to do before the Spirit was given to us. So, yeah, the point here is he’s not taking rebels and inserting his spirit into them and making them be obedient. The spirit is given, as we know, to those who have surrendered and repented and are committed to Christ. And that commitment means they want to follow him. They want to obey him. But we need the spirit to do that because without him we can do nothing. So the Holy Spirit is given to those who want to follow Christ to cause them to do so successfully as opposed to fail.
SPEAKER 06 :
Got it. Got it. Got it. Okay.
SPEAKER 03 :
All right. Well, that was it, man. I appreciate it very much. Thank you. Okay, brother. Yeah, there’s – okay. I appreciate your call. I don’t know how much – we’ve got about a minute or two. I’m going to give somebody a chance, but we may not have time. John from Victoria, British Columbia. Quickly, can I help you?
SPEAKER 09 :
Yes, I joined a men’s group at our church trying to get some counsel from some elderly men that would be helpful. And so they’re reading a book called Leading Like Jesus Revisited. I’m trying to get through it. I’m finding it very dry. I find that it’s a bit of a stretch what he’s trying to use the scripture to say. I’m wondering if you’ve read it, what you think about it.
SPEAKER 03 :
I have not. I have not read it. Do you have a specific question about the book itself? Something you’re not resonating with?
SPEAKER 09 :
In general, I like to read the Bible, not necessarily so many books about the Bible. So he used this example of when Jesus tells Peter to throw the net over, and Peter says, yeah, well, we fished there all night. We haven’t caught anything. But then he goes on to do a paragraph about what Peter might have been thinking. And that kind of rubs me the wrong way. I was like, well, you might have been thinking a lot of things, but the Bible doesn’t say that. And so why are we designating a paragraph to something that’s your opinion of what Peter might have been thinking?
SPEAKER 03 :
I hear you. Well, you know, there’s always that problem that when we try to reproduce the story, we assume that people in the story must have been thinking this way or that way. And we might be correct, but we’re just guessing. I’m not against somebody suggesting I wouldn’t be surprised if Peter thought X. If he says, well, Peter was thinking X, then I think they’re going beyond what we can say without scriptural authority. But to say, I wouldn’t be surprised if Peter’s reaction was this. I mean, I wouldn’t be offended by that. I’m out of time, though. Sorry to say, you’ve been listening to The Narrow Path. Our website is thenarrowpath.com. Thanks for joining us.
