Daily Radio Program
SPEAKER 03 :
Good afternoon and welcome to the Narrow Path radio broadcast. My name is Steve Gregg and we’re live for an hour each weekday afternoon. We take your calls. We have an open phone line, though none of the phone lines are open at the moment. They’re all full, but if you take this number down, if you call in a few minutes, you will probably find a line has opened and you can get through. If you have questions you’d like to ask over the air and have us discuss about the Bible, about the Christian faith, I’ll be glad to do that. If you have heard the program before or maybe in listening today, you’ll hear something. that the host has to say that you don’t find agreeable with what you think is true. You can call and disagree. We’ll talk to you about that as well. So let me give you the number, even though the lines are full at the moment. The number is 844-484-5737. That’s 844-484-5737. And tonight, about a half hour after I go off the air, I’ll be speaking in a little town called Temperance, Michigan. It’s right across the border from Toledo, is that right? Toledo, Ohio. Yeah, I just, in driving through the town today, we crossed the Ohio border a couple times. It’s right by the border. So if you’re in Toledo or that area, you may be interested. It’s a little late notice, but 630 tonight. I’ll be speaking, and if you want to know the address and time and all of that information, It’s at our website, thenarrowpath.com, under announcements. As is the case with the places I’ll be speaking for the remainder of my time in the Midwest. Tomorrow night I’m speaking in Indianapolis. And then on the weekend and even Monday, I’ll be speaking in a couple of towns west of Chicago. By some distance, I think maybe as much as an hour west. I don’t really – I don’t know Chicago. I don’t know the area. But you can find those places on our website if you’re in Illinois or Indiana or even Ohio right now or Michigan. If you want to join us, you can find out where these locations are by going to The Narrow Path, P.O. Box – I’m giving the wrong information. TheNarrowPath.com. Our address is P.O. Box. I’ll give that later on. Now, this is at thenarrowpath.com under the tab that says Announcements. All right. Well, our lines, as I said, are full, so we’re going to go directly to the phones, and we’ll talk to Michael in Santa Cruz, California. Hi, Michael. Welcome to The Narrow Path.
SPEAKER 08 :
Hi, Steve. Good to hear you. Long time no talk. How are you doing?
SPEAKER 03 :
This is our Buddhist friend, Michael. Are you still a Buddhist?
SPEAKER 08 :
Yes. Yes.
SPEAKER 03 :
Okay. I thought you were becoming a Christian or something. Last I heard from you. I haven’t heard for a long time.
SPEAKER 08 :
Well, as you know, I’ve been touched by the spirit of Christianity or Christ, but no, I’m still, Buddhism is the primary paradigm that I lean on for my sort of orientation.
SPEAKER 03 :
Now, you know, you actually can change religions. After all, you were raised Jewish, and now you’re Buddhist, and you could become a Christian. Although I imagine it would offend your family more if you became a Christian than it offended them when you became a Buddhist.
SPEAKER 08 :
I don’t have any family left. My mom died in November.
SPEAKER 03 :
Oh, I’m sorry. I don’t think I’ve heard from you since then.
SPEAKER 08 :
Weren’t you back here? I was living with her and then she got sick and I had to come back to California. I’m hoping to go back to Connecticut just because that’s where I’m from. It’s time for my 40-plus year vacation in California to end.
SPEAKER 03 :
40-plus year vacation. Well, Michael, I enjoy catching up with you, but my lines are full, so we’d better move along.
SPEAKER 08 :
Let me get the reason that I call Steve. So I don’t have a computer, but I do have YouTube access on a smart TV, a Roku TV. I watch a lot of YouTube.
SPEAKER 09 :
Okay.
SPEAKER 08 :
And I stumbled upon this gentleman. Maybe you’ve heard of him. Timmy Gibson. He was a pastor for 30 years and a Christian for 48 years. He’s a little bit younger than you are. He sort of reminds me of you. Very upbeat, very friendly. He was an evangelical pastor for 30 years.
SPEAKER 03 :
So was there something he said that you were wondering about?
SPEAKER 08 :
He has a whole YouTube channel devoted… Have you heard the term deconstruction?
SPEAKER 03 :
I have. Has he deconstructed himself?
SPEAKER 08 :
Yes.
SPEAKER 03 :
So he’s a former Christian.
SPEAKER 08 :
A former Christian.
SPEAKER 03 :
Yeah, I got you.
SPEAKER 08 :
Okay.
SPEAKER 03 :
See, people can change religion.
SPEAKER 08 :
Yes. I’ve been listening to or watching some of his YouTube videos, and it reminded me of when I was in Hebrew school and why I dropped out. Because in Hebrew school, I was expected to take on a whole belief system of believing in things that were beyond my experiential
SPEAKER 03 :
beyond empirical… Okay, is that an objection he raised, and that’s why he left the faith?
SPEAKER 08 :
That would be the primary, but he has other reasons as well. But this is a very simple point that I want to make. So, you know, you’ve asked me a number of times, why can’t you just accept Jesus, you know, the one true Lord and Savior, and relinquish everything else? Right. Well, it’s very simple. If I did that right now or back in Hebrew school, okay, I believe in Yahweh and the whole account. You know, it would not be something that I really know. It would be something taken on faith. That’s what belief means. You take something… on the authority of Scripture or of a tradition.
SPEAKER 03 :
But just a minute, just a minute. The things you believe as a Buddhist, do you really know those to be true, or do you take those by faith?
SPEAKER 08 :
Buddhism, or the Buddha, the historical Buddha, Gautama, never required, like you said, if you examine something, You look into it.
SPEAKER 03 :
But wait, you believe in reincarnation. Do you know that to be true for sure, or is that just something you believe? Have you proven that to be true somehow?
SPEAKER 08 :
It’s something that is considered a faith-based belief. I don’t know it absolutely.
SPEAKER 03 :
Right, and so that’s how it is when you’re a Christian also. You don’t know it like you know that you’re sitting in a room with a bear skin on the wall like I am. But you know it as well as you can know anything that you haven’t seen with your own eyes. You see, faith isn’t just some kind of a leap in the dark. Faith is basically believing that which you have every reason to believe is reliable and from a reliable source that you trust and have good reason to trust, even though maybe they’re saying something you haven’t seen with your own eyes, for example. And everything you know about history, you never saw any of that history, but you trust people who wrote books on it and who taught it. I would hope, anything you’ve never seen but you believe, any scientific facts you’ve never experimented yourself with, if you believe them, it’s because somebody told you. And that’s the same thing with Buddhism. You believe in reincarnation probably because you believe that the Buddha had some insight about that. He was the enlightened one. And that’s not any different than when you were in Hebrew school and they taught you that Yahweh… brought Israel out of Egypt through the Red Sea. I mean, well, are there reliable witnesses to that? The Jews believe there are. I think there are, too. When we say Jesus rose from the dead, we believe there’s reliable witnesses for that, too. And it’s really not, in principle, not any different than any other historical thing we believe. Lots of people say things happened, which didn’t. but of course a lot of things did happen that people tell us that really did, and the question of whether they’re true or not will have to be judged by the competence and the honesty of the people who tell us. Now, I believe that the apostles, the people who wrote the Gospels, had the competency, because I think many of them were eyewitnesses, and so I think an eyewitness is competent to tell you what they saw, and I think they were honest because they were willing to die for what they believed. That’s a pretty good a test of honesty. And so if somebody is honest and competent, I don’t usually disbelieve them. And that has nothing to do with religious ideas. What you’re believing from the Buddha are religious ideas, spiritual things that no one has proven. But that Jesus rose from the dead, many people witnessed that. And all we need to have is a reliable witness of historical witnesses to know if that happened or not. I believe it did. And I think anyone who says it doesn’t is simply ignoring the historical witnesses who exist because there were no witnesses who said he didn’t. So we really have, you know, we’re just talking about a historical question. Did Jesus rise from the dead? If he did, that pretty much endorses, you know, his whole claims about who he was and all of that. Because he predicted he’d rise from the dead. He said he was going to die. He was going to be crucified. Three days later, he’ll rise again. And then he suited the action to the words and did it. Now, of course, we could say, well, all that might have happened. We still want to doubt it. But see, there’s such a thing as being infinitely skeptical, which is not the way anyone really is. People who think they’re infinitely skeptical are only skeptical of the things they don’t want to believe, the things they want to believe they’ll accept without any evidence at all. An honest person isn’t that way. An honest person says, listen, I don’t care what’s true. I just want to know what’s true. I don’t have a preference. Just let me know what happened. I’ll look at the evidence. And when someone does that, they’ll look at the evidence that Jesus rose from the dead and say, we have witnesses. We have historical testimony. We even have secular historical testimony. And so what’s on the other side? What do we have to tell us Jesus didn’t rise from the dead? no testimony at all, no evidence at all, not a thing. So if you have no objection to Christianity, in other words, if you have no objection to the truth lying there, and you’re really interested in truth, not so much as in rejecting Christianity, well, then you say, well, the evidence is for it. There’s no evidence against it. So since I don’t know for sure, and since it’s a rather consequential matter, I think I’ll go ahead and go with the evidence until I have evidence against it. That’s my position. I’ve studied the evidence for Christianity since I was young. But I also have read evidence against it. This guy that’s a former Christian pastor and has this YouTube channel, everything he says I’ve heard before. You know why? Because they all say the same things. I’ve watched lots of these deconstructed Christians. I’ve read the atheists. I’ve debated the atheists. I know what they say, and I know very well. They have zero evidence against it. What they have is an opinion based largely on their preferences. I mean, take Richard Dawkins, for example. He’s a scientist and stuff, but he doesn’t have any scientific evidence there’s no God. He says the God of the Old Testament is the most unlikable character, unpleasant character in all of literature, and he lists all the things about Yahweh that he doesn’t like. but not a single point of evidence that Yahweh doesn’t exist. It’s one thing to say, well, I don’t like this guy. It’s another thing to say, I’ve proven, therefore, he doesn’t exist because I don’t like him. You know, these atheists, and I don’t know about Buddhists so much. I talk to you a lot, but I haven’t talked to that many Buddhists. But Buddhists are, you know, often atheists, too. But atheists, you know, they think they have the intellectual high ground. And even some Christians who are not very good thinkers say, can be dissuaded from their beliefs by people who sound like they’re real smart. But, you know, I think in order to be safe, you have to learn how to analyze the value of an argument. And when you realize that atheists don’t have any arguments, that is, they don’t have any evidence, they have arguments. They don’t like it. They don’t like Christianity. They don’t like that there was slavery in the Bible. They don’t like that there was genocide in the Bible. They don’t like that women didn’t have the same freedoms that we have now in the Bible. I mean, there’s all kinds of things in the ancient world that the Bible describes that people don’t like. But that has nothing to do, absolutely, it doesn’t make an inch movement toward proving whether the Bible is true or not. You can just say, I don’t like it. Well, when you stand before God and you say, well, I didn’t believe because I didn’t like it. I personally think God will say, well, the question is not whether you liked it. But did you care whether it was true or not? And that’s the issue. And I think, Michael, that’s what’s holding you back, too, because you’ve never given me any arguments. You’ve been calling me for 20 years on this program, and you’ve never given me any arguments that, you know, challenge the validity of Christianity, nor that support the validity of Buddhism. You’ve just, you know, talked about what the beliefs are and how much you like them and so forth. But I’m, you know. I’m glad you’re calling me because we haven’t heard you for a long time. But, yeah, I’m just not on the same page with people who say, well, I’m not looking for crochet because I have to believe things I haven’t seen. Yeah, is there anyone you’ve ever met who doesn’t believe things they haven’t seen? You believe lots of things you haven’t seen. You believe the things that you are willing to believe, even if you haven’t seen them. But the things you’re not willing to believe, you don’t. Even if you see him, many times you won’t believe him. I mean, there were people who saw Jesus raise Lazarus from the dead. And because they didn’t want to believe him, they sought to kill him rather than believe in him. So, you know, these guys were deconstructed. By the way, I’m almost finished with a book I’m writing for those people, for deconstructed Christians to address their issues. It’s over two-thirds written. When I have it written, I’d love to get you a copy, and you’re welcome to consider that and react to it if you’d like. But we can’t spend any more time on your call because it’s been the whole program so far, and we have a lot of callers waiting. Thank you for calling again. I’m sure we’ll talk plenty of times in the future. Let’s talk to Jason in Auburn, California. Jason, welcome.
SPEAKER 02 :
Hey, brother. Great to talk with you. You hear me all right?
SPEAKER 03 :
Yeah.
SPEAKER 02 :
Yep. Great. And hi, Dana. I miss you guys, by the way.
SPEAKER 03 :
She’s usually in the room with me. She’s not here in Michigan with me, though. But she’s listening.
SPEAKER 02 :
Awesome. Well, hey, I’ve got two questions for you that I believe are related. Number one, in light of Matthew 18 and Jesus talking about church discipline, Jesus says if a brother sins against you, emphasis on you, I’m putting that emphasis, the brother sins against you, go to him alone, and then if that doesn’t work, take two, et cetera, et cetera. The question is, would that also apply to going initially on someone else’s behalf?
SPEAKER 03 :
Well, honestly, the person, the offended party should be the first one who does it. Now, if they don’t, and lots of people are very afraid of confrontation, and so even though they wish to, they won’t go to confront them, but they’ll still hold a grudge, and that’s not okay. You’ve got to clear the air. The sinner has to be confronted to know that there is an offense so that they’ll have a chance to repent and reconcile. If you never tell them, there’s just an offense that never gets addressed and never gets repented and never gets reconciled. So really the person who’s offended should be the one who suffered the offense from the sin. should be the one who goes. Now, if they don’t, you’re asking what if they don’t and you do it for them, right? Correct. Well, it’s technically not what Jesus said, but there’s certainly nothing wrong with it. He didn’t forbid it. I mean, if I had sinned against somebody and they were holding it against me, but they wouldn’t speak to me about it, I would love it if somebody else who knew about it would come and tell me about it because, in fact, that’s happened to me many times. There are people who feel that I’ve sinned against them, and they just don’t tell me, and I never can figure out why they’re not talking anymore to me. So I’d love it if somebody who knew would tell me. So I would say, you know, in the spirit of what Jesus is saying, yeah, I think you could go on behalf of somebody else if they’re too shy. I’m not too legalistic about the procedure. The point is the effort is to reconcile and to bring to repentance, and I think you could do that.
SPEAKER 02 :
Yes, absolutely. So let’s say someone in the church says, you know, I’m a Christian. I’ve been baptized last week, but I – but they’re living with their boyfriend or girlfriend unmarried. No one’s been sinned against, per se. I mean, God has. Right. Would that be the same? I mean, would church discipline be applied?
SPEAKER 03 :
Well, there’s still sin there, but, yeah, the person may – someone should talk to them about it. Now, when it’s like that, I don’t think you have to follow Matthew 18 quite the same way, but you do have to give the person some opportunity to repent. Before you make it any kind of public, I think. I mean, if a person’s public, if their sin is publicly known, then there’s no reason to be shy about it or coy, you know. I mean, it’s a blatant thing. Then I think the leaders of the church or Christian friends or someone should go to them and say, you know, this is not all right. You’re a Christian now, so you need to give that up. And if they really are saved, they’ll say, oh, okay. I knew a guy. This actually happened to a guy I knew back in the 70s. He was living with his girlfriend. He got converted. Started going to a church. And after a short time, the people in the church found out he was living with his girlfriend. And they said, oh, don’t you know that’s fornication? He said, really? He said, I thought fornication was like being a skirt chaser, being a womanizer. He didn’t know that living with someone that you cared for, you know, was fornication. So they told him that and he went and he, he moved out or had her move. I don’t remember which, but because he was a Christian, when he found out that this is not something Christians are supposed to do, uh, because he wanted to please the Lord, he repented. And anyone who really wants to please the Lord will do that. So in the case you mentioned, I think anyone could speak to them. You might want to speak. If you, if they’re friends of yours, I would suggest maybe you speak to them privately. Um, And then they have a chance to repent and not make any kind of an issue of it beyond that. But if they say, well, you know, we’re going to do this anyway, you know. Well, then, of course, the leadership of the church has to be made known that this person says they’re a Christian, but they don’t have any interest in obeying Jesus, which suggests they’re not a Christian. You know, because when you’re born again, you have a new heart. And that heart is oriented to obeying Jesus because you now love Jesus. Jesus said, if you love me, you’ll keep my commandments. So if you find someone who doesn’t want to keep his commandments, they don’t love him. If they don’t love him, they don’t belong in the Christian fellowship. That’s the principle behind Matthew 18. It’s just that, you know, I think going with two and then the whole church – I mean, you could follow that with any person’s sin. Jesus is specifically talking about someone sinning against you, and therefore you should handle it between you and them privately so that if they repent, no one else ever has to need to know. But if someone’s living in sin and it’s kind of well-known, there’s no reason for the secrecy about it. You can just go directly to them, I would think, with the elders or whatever, or just as friends.
SPEAKER 02 :
Okay, amen. Thank you, sir. And then the second question is, does the brood reed and smoldering wick metaphor apply to someone who is unrepentant?
SPEAKER 03 :
Well, yeah, that comes from Isaiah 42, verses 1 through 4, and it’s quoted about Jesus in Matthew 12, about his style of ministry or his demeanor. It says a bruised reed he will not break and a smoldering wick he will not snuff. It doesn’t ever explain what that means, but the impression is that he’s gentle and that sinners are bruised. I mean, they’re spiritually bruised. They’ve been beat up by the devil and by their sin. They need to be brought back to life, not destroyed. Jesus didn’t find sinners and condemn them and destroy them like the Pharisees did. He reached out to them. He tried to restore. Same thing with a wick that’s just smoldering. Well, you can just snuff it out and it’s gone. Or you can try to fan it back into a flame because, assuming that a flame is a good thing on a wick, the idea is that you can do more damage than is already done. The flame’s gone out. It’s smoldering. Maybe there’s hope of restoring it, but you’re going to put it all the way out. Same thing with a bruised reed. If you just kind of break it off, there’s no hope for it anymore. And so Jesus’ approach was to sinners… that he didn’t cut off their hope. In fact, he was gentle with them, and he tried not to finish the damage that was already begun. And so, what do you say, does it apply to unrepentant sinners? Maybe. I mean, yeah. I mean, Jesus was reaching out to unrepentant sinners, too. They had to repent, but he said, like a doctor, he’s a physician who goes to the sick. He said, so I have not called the righteous but sinners to repentance. So he’s talking about he’s going to unrepentant sinners. to call them to repentance. Uh, so I would say, yeah, I think it just deals. I think it has to do with all of our dealings with all people.
SPEAKER 02 :
Awesome. Steve, I appreciate it, man. Very much. And, uh, you have a great day.
SPEAKER 03 :
Okay, Jason. Great talking to you, man. Thanks. Uh, Glenn from New York. Welcome to the narrow path. Thanks for calling. Hey, Steve. How you doing?
SPEAKER 07 :
Thanks for having me on your show. Sure. Just, uh, First of all, I’d just like to thank you for your mission and for all that you are. You demonstrate what it means to be a true Christian. The Word of God flows tremendously from within you, and it’s absolutely beautiful, and you’re humble. I love your show and your websites and your books, and it’s changed my life for the better, and I can’t thank you enough.
SPEAKER 03 :
Well, thanks for telling me. That’s a blessing to hear.
SPEAKER 07 :
I love you, and I love your show. And I think it’s awesome that, you know, you’re reaching thousands of people, you know, every time that you have a show and stuff. And you travel, you know, stuff. And I pray for you and me every day.
SPEAKER 03 :
That’s true. And I’m very happy that it’s helping you and all of that. It looks like we’re going to have a break coming up. You’re going to have to have a question ready. But, I mean, I do appreciate all those compliments and acknowledgments. All right. Let me see if the music starts here. I think you can ask the question now, and I might have to answer it after the break. Go ahead.
SPEAKER 07 :
All right. I have a few questions, and I’ll try to make them quick. My first question is I’m fascinated with all the different languages at Jesus’ time. Growing up as a young person, I always felt like everybody spoke Hebrew, but they spoke Greek. They got occupied by the Greeks, and they wrote the Gospels in Greek. but they also spoke Aramaic and they spoke Hebrew with, you know, so, you know, I was wondering why, like why all these different languages, like they weren’t even occupied by the Greeks anymore, you know, and, you know, and, you know, was it more like a melting pot? Like, were there just people from different areas that, And they were fluent in all these different languages.
SPEAKER 03 :
Well, let me jump in here because we are going to be interrupted by a break. Let me answer that, and then if you have another question, we’ll try to take it after the break. Yeah, they spoke many languages because lots of cultures had either dominated there or passed through there. Certainly Jews from all over the world would return to Jerusalem for the festivals, and they spoke the languages of the lands they lived in. But they also had to know how to speak some of the, either Hebrew or Aramaic. I think Aramaic was spoken instead of Hebrew most of the time at that point, because Hebrew was the language of the Old Testament, but it evolved in the Jewish usage into usage of Aramaic, which was very similar. And of course, the Greek language was spoken by everybody in the empire, because Alexander the Great had made them all learn it 300 years earlier, and they haven’t forgotten it. They still used it. Listen, I know you have another question, but I’ve got to take a break real quick, and then I’ll come back to you. So stay with us if you will. You’re listening to The Narrow Path. Our website is thenarrowpath.com. We have another half hour coming. I’ll be back in 30 seconds, so go away.
SPEAKER 06 :
Small is the gate and narrow is the path that leads to life. Welcome to The Narrow Path with Steve Gregg. Steve has nothing to sell you but everything to give you. When today’s radio show is over, we invite you to study, learn, and enjoy by visiting thenarrowpath.com where you’ll find free topical audio teachings, blog articles, verse-by-verse teachings, and archives of all The Narrow Path radio shows. We thank you for supporting the listener-supported Narrow Path with Steve Gregg. Remember thenarrowpath.com.
SPEAKER 03 :
Welcome back to the Narrow Path Radio Broadcast. My name is Steve Gregg, and we’re live for another half hour, taking your calls if you have questions about the Bible or the Christian faith. The number to call, and we do have a couple of lines open right now, the number to call is 844-825-8255. 844-484-5737. That’s 844-484-5737. We were talking to Glenn from New York before the break, and Glenn, I’ve got you back on. Now, you said you had more than one question. Oh, yeah, just a couple more quick questions.
SPEAKER 07 :
My 13-year-old daughter asked me this a few months ago, and she was just like, how do we really know what Jesus said when he was alone? in the Garden of Gethsemane or in the desert for 40 days and 40 nights or even with Pontius Pilate because the apostles weren’t there. And I simply said, well, he must have told his apostles when they were hanging out and stuff, and then they were inspired by the Holy Spirit when they wrote the Gospels. But I figured you might know a little bit more for that answer.
SPEAKER 03 :
Well, your answer is pretty good. I mean, you know, like – William Barclay, he thought the story of Jesus tempted in the wilderness was the most sacred story in the Bible because it’s the only one that had to be told by Jesus to the disciples. There were no witnesses. And all the other stories were witnessed. Now, when Jesus prayed in the Garden of Gethsemane, he wasn’t actually alone. He had disciples near enough that they could hear him. It’s just they didn’t stay awake for very long. You know, they fell asleep. And maybe that’s why they recorded so little of his prayer. You know, he went off to pray. He said, stay awake for an hour with me here. And they heard him say, Father, if it’s within your will, let this cup pass from me, but not my will, but yours be done. And then I think they were snoring by that time, so they didn’t hear anymore. But he probably, he was praying for an hour, I think. And it didn’t take an hour to say those words. So I think that they just didn’t hear his whole prayer, but they heard enough to record that. That was the gist of what he was saying. There were, of course, nine of the disciples, or actually eight of them, were not close by, but he had taken Peter, James, and John into the interior of the garden where he asked them to pray with him. Now, it says when he left them to pray there, he moved a little bit away from them, but I think within earshot. I think virtually everything that is recorded that Jesus said, since it was said in the presence of other people, we could probably trace it to them. Now, what he said to Pilate On trial, that could have come from any number of places. The pilot had attendance. Some of them may have become Christians later and told the apostles what had been said. Some of it may have been on the public record. If there was a stenographer of some kind taking record because it was a court case and the judge was questioning the witness. I know there’s at least one of the church father’s I think it was – well, I’m not sure which one it was. One of the early church apologists who was talking to an unbeliever, and he says, you know, all this stuff, it’s on record in the court documents from Pontius Pilate. And scholars don’t know if it really was because we don’t have it anymore or if the Christian writer was just assuming it must be. But in any case – the Christian assumed that there’d be a record taken down of what took place. And that assumption would probably be based on that was normal procedure. So I wouldn’t be surprised, you know, if it was taken down in the records that anyone could consult if they wanted to. Another option, of course, is that Jesus told him because he was present for all of those conversations. And he did talk to his disciples for 40 days before his ascension after he rose from the dead. And he could have filled in any of those things. But, yeah, the temptation of the wilderness, I think, very definitely, Jesus probably just told that to the disciples how it went. Mm-hmm.
SPEAKER 07 :
And the last one, I know you talked a little bit about the Jesus Revolution. I wanted to hear a little bit more from, like, your experience. And if you were baptized, what was it like to be with all those people? And I know you learned them.
SPEAKER 09 :
Yeah.
SPEAKER 07 :
And you saw Lonnie. And were you in that household? with all of them and… No, I was not in that house.
SPEAKER 03 :
I was not in that house, but I did know Lonnie, and I got to know him later once he moved to Santa Cruz, and I was there too. I mean, I could talk forever about the Jesus Revolution. It’s a very memorable thing. I wish everyone could hear all the details. In answer to your questions, I didn’t get baptized in the beach baptisms because I had been baptized at age 12 in the Baptist church. I… I didn’t get converted in the Jesus movement. I got converted as a child. I was baptized in the spirit in the Jesus movement. Lonnie Frisbee is the one who laid hands on me, in fact, for that. But I didn’t get baptized in the ocean because I’d been baptized before. But I was at many of those baptisms. I witnessed a lot of them. Yeah, I mean, what was it like when… It was like heaven. I mean, it was exciting. I won’t say it was like heaven, because I don’t know what heaven’s like, but it was like… it was like what you picture the early church being, you know, excitement. Everybody’s talking about Jesus everywhere. I mean, every day there’s, you know, people are reporting answers to prayer and miracles they saw and stuff. I mean, it’s just really kind of, it was very, very cool. And I was 16 years old, had been a Baptist youth leader prior to that, and was very impressed. And that’s where, yeah, I got baptized in the Spirit there. Awesome.
SPEAKER 07 :
Well, thank you very much and just keep doing what you’re doing.
SPEAKER 03 :
Okay, Glenn. God bless you. Thanks for your call. And thanks for those kind words. God bless. All right. Let’s see. Judy in Vancouver, Washington. Vancouver, B.C. Excuse me. Not Vancouver, Washington in this case, but Vancouver, British Columbia. Hi, Judy. Welcome.
SPEAKER 05 :
Hello. Thank you for taking my call. My question is rooted in what, well, I know what the Bible says about what is expected of a man and a wife in a marriage, that women are called to respect their husbands and husbands are called to love their wives. Now my question, and I also understand that we’re called to forgive and we’re called to persevere through trials. My question is, what is expected of me when there has been domestic violence towards me? And There’s now a no-contact order because of threats of killing me. What is God expecting of me?
SPEAKER 03 :
Well, I think it’s more what’s expected of your husband. If there’s a no-contact order, I think what’s expected is he shouldn’t contact you until whatever the problem is is remedied. As a wife, I know that wives, they often ask me if a physical… abuse is grounds for divorce. And there certainly are a lot of preachers who would say yes to that. I’m inclined not to think so. I was in a marriage for 20 years. I wasn’t physically abused because I was actually bigger than my wife. She really wouldn’t have been able to hurt me very well, but she hurt me otherwise. She was verbally and otherwise abusive. It was a hard place to be. And, you know, it was very demeaning and very dehumanizing and all kinds of things like that. Of course, I wasn’t in any physical danger. And so I just learned to grin and bear it. Now, when a woman is being beaten up by a man or, you know, or he’s come close and it looks like he’s going to do it, I think she has every right to get out of the home. I don’t know that it’s grounds for divorce. I didn’t consider that when my wife abused me verbally and all that stuff. I didn’t consider that was grounds for divorce. And I don’t think it’s necessarily grounds for divorce in other cases when there’s other kinds of abuse. But you certainly don’t have to stay there and get abused. You can preferably find a safe place. Now, if there’s a no contact order and he’s going to… observe it, then you can just stay in your home, I guess. But if that were not possible, go to stay with your parents or some other Christian people or something. I don’t think a woman has to stay in danger. But I don’t think that divorce is the next step. I would think that if you’re in danger and you have to go to a safe place, then you will be praying for your husband to repent and for him to come around and become a safe man, since you have made vows to you know, to be with him for life and so forth, and he might not. And so you have to be kind of ready, if necessary, to remain single, or, you know, he may himself give up and go after some other woman. If he goes after another woman, then I think you have grounds for divorce.
SPEAKER 05 :
Okay. I appreciate that, and I also appreciate your autobiography online. That’s appreciated.
SPEAKER 03 :
Oh, yeah. Yeah, you know what I went through. All right. Well, sister, I’m sorry to hear about this. I’m very sorry to hear of anyone who’s in an unhappy marriage, and especially one that’s maybe dangerous, all the worse. Do you have children together?
SPEAKER 05 :
Yes, we do.
SPEAKER 03 :
Are they adults or little?
SPEAKER 05 :
They’re little.
SPEAKER 03 :
Yeah, well, then, yeah, definitely to be removed from him when he’s a physically violent man is a sensible thing. You know, what Paul says… About divorce. And some people would actually see this differently than me, so I’m going to tell you what they would say. That Paul said that if a believing Christian is married to an unbeliever, and if the unbeliever is content to dwell with them, that is, content to continue in the marriage as a marriage partner, then they should not divorce. But if the unbeliever departs, which I believe is the opposite of content to dwell. They’re not content to dwell with you. Then he said the brother or sister is not under bondage. They can let him depart. I believe that means you’re free from the marriage. And so I think in a case like that. You know, divorce could be followed because that’s just formalizing what’s already become a reality because you’re free now. But some people would say that a man who beats his wife is not content to dwell with her, you know. He might be happy to stay in the home because it’s cheaper to, you know, live at home with her and have her cooking the food and stuff like that. But that doesn’t mean he’s content to be a husband. A man who’s beating up his wife. Right. and doesn’t want to stop doing it, is not interested in being a husband. You know, he’s not content to do well as her married partner. So there are people who would say that you already have grounds for divorce. But, see, I would never give anyone that permission until I could talk to both people and know more about what’s really going on, you know. Is he a Christian? Does he think he’s a Christian?
SPEAKER 05 :
Well, he said he was a Christian when I married him. But the way he lives and he doesn’t go to church anymore. and doesn’t associate with Christians.
SPEAKER 03 :
Okay, yeah, so, I mean, you know, I’m not going to give anyone permission for divorce, because I don’t know. You see, even if you have… Yeah, I had a wife who was cheating on me for years, and I wouldn’t divorce her. I had grounds, but I just thought it’s not the will of God for me to divorce. And so I’m not going to ever suggest that God wants you to divorce, even when you have grounds. But I can say there are situations where the Bible says you’re not at fault if you divorce. And so some would say your present situation qualifies for that. But I’m not sure God wants you to. You’d have to pray about that.
SPEAKER 05 :
Yes, absolutely. Well, thank you for that perspective. I appreciate that.
SPEAKER 03 :
All right, Judy. Thanks for your call.
SPEAKER 05 :
Thank you. Bye-bye.
SPEAKER 03 :
Bye now. Catherine in Bellingham, Washington, welcome to The Narrow Path.
SPEAKER 04 :
Thanks for calling. Yes, thank you for having me on your program. My question is about the temple, the rebuilding of the temple in Jerusalem, which is associated with some of the events of the last days. I’m wondering if you heard anything, whether that’s already happening, or if it’s not, how will we know when it does start to occur again?
SPEAKER 03 :
All right. Well, first of all, there are some Jews in Jerusalem that want to rebuild the temple. They’re called the Temple Institute. They make up a very, very tiny minority of the population of Israel. Certainly, for the temple ever to be rebuilt would require a huge change of heart on the part of almost all the people in Israel because very few of them have an interest in the temple being rebuilt. But there are some who do. There are some who are laying plans. There are some who are even gathering money from evangelical churches for the project. You know, and so, I mean, it might happen. It might happen. But I should say this. I don’t really believe the Bible predicts that it will happen. Now, I know you’ve heard that it will, and we all have heard that, because the popular teaching of dispensationalism is that the temple will be rebuilt in the last days. An Antichrist will set up an image of himself there. He’ll defile the temple. It’s a very important part of dispensational end times scenarios. However, there’s actually no statement in the Bible about a third temple. I mean, not explicitly. There are some passages you could interpret that way, but there’s no passages that necessarily would say that. I only can think of two. First of all, there’s no New Testament reference to a rebuilt temple. There is a temple… mentioned in 2 Thessalonians 2, but Paul is using the term temple of God there. He says the man of sin sits in the temple of God and makes himself God. But Paul never uses the term temple of God to mean the Jewish temple, but he uses it elsewhere twice to mean the church. To him, the church is the temple of God. So he’s not specifically making any reference to a third temple in Jerusalem or predicting that there will be one. The man of sin, as Paul thinks it, would sit in the church, be a church problem. And, of course, such things have happened before. But also Revelation, chapter 11, verses 1 and 2, mention a temple that John saw. But I believe that’s the second temple that was later destroyed in 70 A.D. So there’s certainly nothing to say that it’s a third temple. Now, the Old Testament has a couple references to a temple. After the second temple was destroyed in 586 B.C. by Nebuchadnezzar, Ezekiel saw a vision of a temple. And it’s recorded in Ezekiel chapter 40 through 47. And he describes this temple in detail, but he doesn’t say that it’s going to be built. In fact, he makes it sound like it’s conditional in Isaiah 43, 11. He is told, show the plans for the temple to the children of Israel. And if they are ashamed of all that they have done, which is a way of saying if they’ve repented of it, then show them these plans. Now, it sounds like it’s saying, here’s a temple plan. Solomon’s temple, you know, is destroyed. There’s no temple in Jerusalem at that point in time. And so he says, here’s a plan for a beautiful temple. And show it to encourage the Israelites. And if they’re really repentant, the impression is they could use this plan. They could have a temple like this. But they weren’t. And when they had the chance to go back and rebuild the temple, only 50,000 Jews went out of probably millions. And so the majority of Israel wasn’t repentant. They weren’t God-oriented. They weren’t that interested in worshiping God in Jerusalem anymore. So they had less manpower and less finances, so they built a smaller temple. So the temple that Ezekiel describes, it never actually says it’s going to be built. It says, show these plans to the Israelites, and if they’re ashamed, then these plans will be relevant to them. Well, I dare say there’s not much evidence that the Israelites were sufficiently ashamed, and they didn’t. They got a temple, but it was much less than that one. It wasn’t that one. Which I think of the temple in Ezekiel, therefore, as the temple that might have been. But there’s no guarantee in Ezekiel that it’s going to be. And then there’s one other place I can think of. That’s Zechariah 14, where it talks about people bringing things to the temple at the end of chapter 14 of Ezekiel. Did I say Ezekiel? Zechariah. Zechariah 14. And I don’t see that as being about a third temple either. I have a different way of looking at that passage. My verse-by-verse lectures through Zechariah or Ezekiel would go into those things in more detail, which I obviously can’t do now. But suffice it to say, I don’t think there’s any passage in the Bible that specifically predicts A third temple. So, you know, anyone who’s really into end times prophecy is going to be probably a dispensationalist. And dispensationalists do think there’s going to be a third temple. And so they talk about it as if it’s a given. And when you hear that there’s Jews in Jerusalem wanting to build the temple, that only encourages them. And then when you hear that somebody has bred a red heifer, well, that’s great because if they build a temple… They have to burn a red heifer to ashes and mix it in a special solution of holy water and sprinkle the temple with it to anoint it. So, you know, they say we need a red heifer, and those are hard to find. So there’s people breeding red heifers for that very purpose. And our dispensational friends are always so fond of telling us, oh, there’s a story in the news about a red heifer. You know, and I think, yeah, I don’t think anything about Jesus is about cows or temples. God doesn’t dwell in temples made with hands. We’re the temple of the Holy Spirit. Paul said so. Peter said so. Peter said we’re living stones built up into a spiritual house. It’s a spiritual temple. So the spiritual temple is eternal. The physical temple is temporal. And there’s no need for a temple. By the way, if the Jews do build another temple, and I’m not saying they won’t. I’m just saying there’s no prediction that they will in the Bible. But they could if they do build a third temple. It’ll be an absolute insult to God and to Jesus. Because the only purpose for the temple is to offer blood sacrifices for the remission of sins. That’s what the temple’s for. It’s a slaughterhouse where they offer sacrifices. Jesus offered a sacrifice once for all, put an end to that whole system. And the only reason anyone would build a temple is saying, we don’t accept Jesus as our last sacrifice, so we’re going to go back to the system that denies him. And the Jewish religion does deny Christ. It’s an article of faith in Judaism that Jesus denies. is a false prophet, a sorcerer, the bastard son of Mary and a Roman soldier. That’s Judaism. That’s what the Talmud teaches. And so Judaism is an anti-Christian religion, and building a temple would be an anti-Christian act done by an anti-Christian religion, just like building a mosque would be an anti-Christian act done You know, to me, if the Jews do build their temple again, the Christians should see it exactly the same, as if someone built a mosque somewhere. I’d say, well, they’ve got a new mosque now, but it’s got nothing to do with us, and it’s certainly not something for us to celebrate. So that’s the whole scoop on that. All right?
SPEAKER 04 :
The world?
SPEAKER 03 :
Okay.
SPEAKER 04 :
Would we know it all over the world if they did start building another one?
SPEAKER 03 :
Oh, sure. Oh, sure, because the – Because it would start a war with the Muslims. The Muslims claimed the Temple Mount. So, yeah, World War III would be quite obvious to everybody.
SPEAKER 04 :
Okay. Thank you so much, and God bless you.
SPEAKER 03 :
Okay, Catherine. God bless you, too. It’s a pleasure speaking with you.
SPEAKER 04 :
Thank you.
SPEAKER 03 :
Bye now. Jim from Sacramento. Welcome to The Narrow Path. Jim, are you there? Okay, there’s no Jim there. Let’s talk to Daryl in Sacramento, another Sacramento. Hi, Daryl. Welcome.
SPEAKER 01 :
Hey, Steve. How are you doing? This is about the fourth time we’ve spoken over the years. I want to applaud you for yesterday. I tried to get in yesterday when we were talking about the exercising of authorities with these so-called mega ministries and stuff, the gentleman that asked that question. My little rant there yesterday, yeah. But I appreciate it. Your position and my position are the same. Now, I’ve never told you this. I’ve always just gave you my name. I’ve been a pastor for 14 years here in Sacramento. I’m also a musician, so I play a little bit of keyboard. So I used to play for churches for free. The other musicians used to get mad at me. If I’m in the congregation, I’m not going to offer no type of – price if I play. But that’s not what’s then. That’s not my question. Now, my most important question, and I applaud you for your wisdom, God-given wisdom, and you’re one of the best teachers that I’ve ever had the pleasure to learn from. Now, five-fold ministry, according to Ephesians, pastors, I mean, apostles, prophets, pastors, teachers, and evangelists, right? Are the Prophets and apostles still in effect today, and if not, why are these ministries believing in them? And if they are, tell me they’re processing their duties to benefit the church because we’re supposed to build. The church, as far as teaching and edifying the church, like you was explaining to the gentleman yesterday, our pastors are servants. They’re not dictators. They’re not kings. They’re not rulers. Right. But I’m not that way. I got out of ministry because that’s why I started Truth, Liberty Ministries in Sacramento, because I got tired of the nonsense and the naming and claiming and you’ve got to give to get and all this other stuff. So I’m going to take my answer off the air, sir. Thank you, and God bless you.
SPEAKER 03 :
Okay, Brother Darrell, God bless you. Thanks for your call. The five-fold ministry, so-called, is based on Ephesians chapter 4, verses 11 through 13, where Paul said that Christ gave gifts to men. He gave some apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, some pastors, and teachers. Now, by the way, some people believe there’s five things there. They said some apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, some pastors, and teachers. He didn’t say some pastors and some teachers. So some things, he’s saying the fourth category is people who are pastors and teachers, the pastor-teachers. So there’s differences of interpretation. There’s either five or four. But the thing is, nobody denies that evangelists still exist, and nobody denies that pastors or teachers still exist, but I think you’re wondering why would there not be apostles and prophets. And I don’t know if there are apostles and prophets. If you listen to me enough, I always say I’m open to the possibility. I just haven’t met any. I mean, I’ve been in charismatic circles. I meet people who say they’re prophets and people who say they’re apostles. But, you know, what Jesus said to the church of Ephesus in Revelation chapter 2 is he’s commending them. He says, because you tested those who say they’re apostles. and are not, and you found them to be liars. Good for you. I mean, basically, if someone claims to be an apostle, you shouldn’t just accept it. You should test it. And I’ve never known a person who said he was an apostle who passed such a test, so I don’t know of any. They could be there, but I don’t know of any. And the same thing with prophets. Now, I do believe in the gift of prophecy, but I don’t believe everyone who prophesies is a prophet. I think Paul said anybody can prophesy. I mean, even non-Christians could prophesy. Caiaphas prophesied in John chapter 11, and Balaam prophesied in Numbers. He was a bad guy. King Saul, when he’s pursuing David to kill him, fell among the prophets and prophesied. So, you know, you don’t have to be an actual prophet to prophesy. God can speak through anyone, and Paul indicated that any Christian might prophesy. In fact, he said, covet to prophesy. And he said, desire the best gifts, especially that you might prophesy. So, that’s a general teaching to the Christians. But he also said, are all apostles, are all prophets, which suggests no, they’re not. So you might all prophesy, but you’re not all prophets. You can be prophesying if you’re not a prophet at times. So I believe that prophesying is biblical enough until Jesus returns. But apostles and prophets, I’m not so sure. If you say, well, why would they not be if the others are? I think the answer that most people would give to that question would be two chapters earlier in Ephesians 2. At the very end of Ephesians 2, Paul said that Christ has built us, the church, on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, which makes it sound like when Christ started building the church, which has been growing and being built for 2,000 years, he built it on a foundation, which was the apostles and prophets. And you don’t have to relay the foundation of the building again and again. You just have to build on that. So some people would say, yeah, well, we do have evangelists, pastors, and teachers, but not necessarily apostles and prophets. I’m not adamant about that. All I can say is if there are apostles and prophets, I haven’t really met them yet, and I’ve been looking. So that would be my whole answer. I’m out of time. You’re listening to The Narrow Path, and our website is thenarrowpath.com. Thanks for joining us. Let’s talk again tomorrow.
