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What does the Bible really say about tribulation and the end times? Steve Gregg takes listeners on a journey through scripture, discussing common misunderstandings and the significance of the prophecies. From historical events like the destruction of Jerusalem to future promises at the return of Jesus, Steve tackles complex questions with clarity and depth. This engaging episode of The Narrow Path provides listeners with a well-rounded understanding that challenges traditional narrative and invites deeper contemplation and study.
SPEAKER 1 :
Thank you. Thank you.
SPEAKER 01 :
Good afternoon and welcome to the Narrow Path radio broadcast. My name is Steve Gregg and we’re live for an hour each weekday afternoon taking your calls. If you have questions about the Bible or the Christian faith, I’d be glad to talk to you about those things. You have to call me and you can do so anytime in the coming hour. Though right now is a very good time to call because we have a few lines open. at the beginning of today’s program and there may not be lines open very much the rest of the hour so this is a good time to call the number is 844 484 57 37 that’s 844 484 57 37 one thing I should be announcing this week is that at the end of this week Friday and Saturday and Sunday I will be speaking in a few places in Minneapolis area. Actually, is it Isanti? It’s I-S-A-N-T-I. I don’t know how to pronounce it, but anyone in Minneapolis probably knows how to pronounce it. It looks like Isanti and might be Isanti. Anyway, I’m speaking there and I’m speaking in Stanchfield, which is also in the General area. And I’ll be speaking on, let’s see, it’s going to be Friday in the evening. I’ll be speaking in the morning to afternoon Saturday and in the evening on Saturday. And then I’ll be speaking on Sunday. Looks like it’ll be in the early afternoon. So after you’re done with church Sunday. From 1 to 3, I’ve got a lecture there also. That’s coming up this next weekend, this coming weekend. So if you’re in the Minneapolis area, just know that that’s in your area. It’s the first time, I think, that I’ve spoken in the Minneapolis area. If I have done it before, it must have been many years ago. Anyway… So that’s that. Also, of course, if you’re in Oregon, I’ll be doing a rather long itinerary, I think about 11 days in Oregon. I’ll be in the Portland and the Salem areas and Albany, I think, areas. And that’ll be in mid-October. And we have both of these itineraries are at our website. And if you live in one of those two places, Oregon or Minneapolis, you can go to thenarrowpath.com, click on the tab that says announcements, look at the dates, and you’ll see the time and place of these gatherings. And we’ll see you there, some of you. All right, we’re going to go ahead and talk to our first caller, who is Ryan in Spartanburg, South Carolina. Ryan, welcome to The Narrow Path. Thanks for calling.
SPEAKER 05 :
Thank you, Steve. My question is about the tribulation. I’m trying to kind of reprogram my brain from all the dispensationalist things that I kind of grew up with, like the Left Behind series and all that, and I find myself kind of questioning, wait a second, is that what the Bible teaches, or am I remembering something wrong? And so I heard you say in one of your previous calls that the tribulation was spoken of, I believe, by Jesus in Matthew, and he said that this generation will not pass before some of you here see it. And I guess what I wanted to ask was, is Jesus therefore talking about the destruction of the temple in 70 AD, or is there evidence in the Bible for a coming period of tribulation, I guess, pre-rapture?
SPEAKER 01 :
Okay. The word tribulation, as you might know, is a very common word in Scripture, but it’s not referring to what most people mean when they say the Great Tribulation. The word tribulation, philipsis in the Greek, it just means pressure. Or, you know, hardship. And, of course, Jesus did say that we will experience tribulation. In John 16, 33, I guess it is, he said, In the world you will have tribulation, but be of good cheer, I have overcome the world. And Paul also said this in 1 Thessalonians 3 and verse 4. He said, For, in fact, we told you before when we were with you that you would suffer tribulation, just as it happened. And you know, in another place, I think it’s Acts 14, 22, Paul told all the churches that he established on his first missionary journey, through much tribulation, we enter the kingdom of God. So, I mean, Paul and Jesus certainly warned the disciples that life for them would be characterized by tribulations. Now, most dispensationalists would say, well, okay, a tribulation generically means We are going to have tribulation generically, but not the great tribulation or not the tribulation. Now, when they talk about the tribulation, they’re referring to a seven-year period, which they identify somehow with Daniel’s 70th week in the prophecy of Daniel 9, verses 24 through 27. There’s the 70 weeks, and each week is seven years. And they believe that one of these weeks, the 70th of them, has somehow been postponed, that 69 of these weeks transpired before Jesus actually left the earth in his ascension, and yet the last week, the last seven years, has been postponed, and that will be just before he returns, the tribulation, the seven-year tribulation. Now, I just say this, the Bible nowhere mentions a seven-year tribulation. Daniel’s 70th week, is nowhere identified with a time of tribulation in the Bible, so that’s not really, you know, you can’t really connect those things without a great deal of imagination. The whole idea of the tribulation, or a specific period of tribulation, is found only twice. Once, as you mentioned, is in Matthew 24, verse 21, where Jesus said, for then there will be great tribulation. Now, he didn’t say the great tribulation, but Later on in Revelation 7.14, Revelation mentions the great tribulation. So Jesus is the first to mention great tribulation. And referring back to Jesus’ reference to that, Revelation says, well, this is the great tribulation, you know, the one that Jesus spoke of. So in Matthew 24.21, he says, For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world, until this time nor ever shall be. Now, by the way, those statements, you know, there’s never been anything like this before, never will be afterwards. That’s an extremely common form of hyperbole in the Bible. It’s used about a lot of things. For example, the locust plague in Joel chapter 2 is said to be like no locust plague ever before or after. And yet the locust plague in Egypt, in Exodus, is said to be like no locust plague before or after. Now, they can’t both be uniquely the worst in all history. And then, of course, you’ve got an even worse locust plague in Revelation 11 with the locusts out of the pit. Solomon was told that he’d be wiser and richer than any king before him or after him. And yet there have been some richer. And Jesus is one wiser. Jesus said he was one greater than Solomon. You know, you have this kind of language. Even the destruction of Jerusalem in 586 B.C. by the Babylonians. is spoken of by, I believe it’s in the fifth chapter of Ezekiel, or fourth chapter. He speaks of how God is going to do something to Jerusalem that the likes of which he’s never done before, and he’ll never do afterward. The very same kind of words that Jesus used here. And yet, Ezekiel, in the context, is very clearly talking about the destruction of Jerusalem. in 586 BC. And Jesus is talking about the destruction of Jerusalem in the same hyperbolic terms, but a different destruction of Jerusalem, which is in 70 AD. Now, we know that because he had just said at the beginning of this chapter, when they pointed out to him the magnificent stones of the temple, Jesus said to them in verse 3, or in verse 2, he said, I say to you, not one stone shall be left here upon another that shall not be thrown down. So he’s saying the temple, every stone that they’re pronouncing is rethrown down. Not one stone will be left standing on another. He’s talking about the destruction of the temple. So they came to him and said, well, when will this be? And so he answers them. And the answer he gives them is found in these verses that we’re looking at. And he says in verse 21, for then there will be great tribulation. And there was. He says then, of course, he’s talking about at that time when the temple is going to be destroyed. And, of course, in verse 34, he says, Assuredly, I say to you, this generation will by no means pass until all these things are fulfilled, meaning the destruction of Jerusalem. There’s nothing else, you know, that they’d asked about. They asked, when will these things, meaning the destruction of Jerusalem and the temple, when will these things be? Well, this generation will not pass before these things have come to pass. So, He’s talking about the destruction of Jerusalem, and he was quite right. Of course, it was destroyed just 40 years after he stated it. Now, the only other reference, and he doesn’t say the tribulation will be seven years or three and a half. He doesn’t give any length of time. He just said there’d be terrible tribulation. And then the only other reference to a specific period of tribulation in the Bible is when Revelation is apparently referring to this very statement of Jesus. Because in Revelation 7, verse 14, he says, And I said to him, Sir, you know. Well, in verse 13, the man said, Who are these ones in heaven in white robes who are worshiping God with palm branches? And he said, I said, Sir, you know. And he said to me, These are the ones who are coming out of the great tribulation and have washed their robes. and made them white with the blood of the Lamb. Now, this is the only time we read of the great tribulation with the word the, as if there’s a very specific great tribulation. And the term great tribulation was used by Jesus when he said, then there shall be great tribulation. So when Revelation later says, yeah, this is that great tribulation, this is the great tribulation that Jesus spoke about. These are coming out. So we see that Matthew 24 and Revelation are both talking about the great tribulation. But just as Matthew 24, Jesus said this generation will not pass before these things happen. In Revelation, we’re told that in Revelation chapter 1, verse 1, the revelation of Jesus Christ, which he gave to him to show his servants things which must shortly take place. Okay, so these things would take place shortly after John wrote this to people who don’t exist anymore, but did when he wrote it to them. And he sent and signified by his angel to his servant John. Then verse 3, first chapter of Revelation, verse 3. Blessed is he who reads and those who hear the words of the prophecy and keep the things written in it, for the time is near. So he said these are things that are shortly going to take place. The time is near. Just like Jesus said this generation will not pass before this happens, Revelation also assures his first century readers that that the time was quite near for these things to happen. And so the only two places in the Bible that mention the Great Tribulation are talking about things that were to happen soon after the predictions were made. In the case of Jesus’ prediction in Matthew 24-21, it would be in that very generation, which his disciples, some of them, did live to see. And then when Revelation was written, which I believe was before A.D. 70, There are some who believe otherwise. It says these things will shortly take place. So both times that the tribulation is mentioned, it’s in passages that place the fulfillment of it quite near. So I’m going to say that the only tribulation that I know that Jesus spoke about is the one that occurs in relation to the destruction of the temple in that generation in 70 A.D., And since Revelation talks about the Great Tribulation, apparently referring to a specific Great Tribulation, the one that Jesus mentioned, is also apparently talking about 70 A.D. And there’s many, many people who believe this. Certainly it’s not the only view about Revelation, but it’s a very common one. And I believe that that is what Revelation is talking about there. So the only tribulation I know of is associated with the fall of Jerusalem in A.D. 70. That is the only specific tribulation. And we’re not told how long it would be. Never does the Bible ever place a length on it.
SPEAKER 05 :
So, therefore, if we take the view, as you were saying about Revelation 1, verse 1, that these things are surely to happen, if we take the view that Revelation has mostly been fulfilled or it occurred already in the past, is the only event left in the sequence of events to occur is that Jesus returns?
SPEAKER 01 :
In my opinion, yes. And at his return, there’s several things that happen at that same time. There’s the resurrection of the dead. There’s the final judgment. There’s the dispatch of the unbelievers to the lake of fire. And there’s the new heaven and the new earth to which the New Jerusalem descends and is the eternal habitation of the saved. All that happens, as I understand it, when Jesus returns.
SPEAKER 05 :
Thank you so much. I really appreciate your clarification.
SPEAKER 01 :
Okay, Ryan. Good talking to you, man. God bless you. Bye now. Okay. Yvette from Rancho Cucamonga, California. Welcome to The Narrow Path. Yvette. Okay. Sometimes we have trouble with this particular channel. I’m not sure why. Okay, Yvette. You’re not there. I’m going to have to take another call. You don’t have your phone on mute, do you? Might check that. Going once, going twice. All right, we’ll have to take another call. Sorry, Yvette. Priscilla in Vancouver, British Columbia. Welcome. Oh, I’m sorry. I hit the wrong button. Mind the sake. There you go. Hi, Priscilla.
SPEAKER 09 :
Hello? Hi. Hi, sir. Okay, very quickly, I’m going to hang up. Please bear with my up and… Down, horsey, crazy voice, all the yelling.
SPEAKER 01 :
I have not understood one of your words. I don’t know if your phone is not good. Can you understand me? I just heard, can you understand me? But what you said before that I could not understand. Are we clear now? Possibly. Go ahead and be as brief as possible so we don’t have to struggle with that. Yeah.
SPEAKER 09 :
In a time where we struggle through such hardship, tribulation, and bombardment of fear, stress, anxiety, and unforgiveness, resentment, if we choose, how does one become not hardened in their heart? How does one still follow through in a time where we are going through such coldness? I don’t get it. Where do we stand in all this? when it comes to having Christ’s love in our heart, when we’re at a time and a place where it’s so cold and barren, sir, help me. I’m hanging up.
SPEAKER 01 :
All right. Yeah, I mean, I don’t know what kind of trials you’re going through, but I would say probably at least half of the people listening to this program are going through some very significant trials and pressures in their life. at this moment, and the other half have been through them not very long ago or will go through them soon because it’s very common for us to go through trials, and this is just what life is supposed to be like at this point. When Jesus returns, I believe, as it says in Revelation, there will be no more sadness, no more sorrow, no more sickness, no more pain, no more death. I mean, all the bad stuff, that’s going to go away when Jesus comes back, but it’s not going to go away before that. And so, you know, we just have to tough it out in a sense and say, OK, remember when Jesus said, you know, no one who’s building a tower begins the project unless he first checks out to see if he has enough to finish it, because if he doesn’t have enough to finish it. he just won’t start the project because he might start and not be able to finish. He’s using that as an analogy of becoming a follower of his. If you’re going to follow Jesus, you better kind of count the cost is basically what he’s saying. And you need to probably not even begin if you’re not going to be able to persist. Now, this is true of many things in life, not just being a Christian. This is true of marriage. When you get married, you have to persist. I mean, there are hardships in marriage, but But, you know, that’s why there are vows of marriage that say, you know, for better or for worse, in sickness and in health, for richer or for poorer, you know, no matter what happens, we’re in. We’re going to persist. Now, persisting and persevering is a decision we make. But, of course, we need God’s help. We’re not expected to live in life, even in good times. We’re not supposed to live the Christian life in our own strength. But we have to be willing to. live it. And God will give us the strength. God gives us the grace. We have to trust Him. We have to say, okay, life is hard. Or maybe life isn’t hard at the moment. Maybe life is fairly easy, but I still don’t live the Christian life in my own fleshly strength and resolve. I have to be filled with the Holy Spirit. I have to be empowered by the Spirit. I need to receive the grace to help in time of need. And all of this comes from when we trust God and say, okay, I’m going to trust God about this. And you might even have to say it out loud. Just say, I’m going to trust God when you’re tempted to doubt or when you’re tempted to falter. There is no problem and no temptation taking you that the Bible says that God will allow to be greater than you can bear with his help. But the Bible says you will always have his help available. So he always provides a way of escape. This is 1 Corinthians 10, 13. He always provides a way of escape so you can endure it. Some trials are extremely hard. In fact, some are definitely too hard for us to bear in our own strength. Paul said in 2 Corinthians 1 that when he had been in Asia, he had been tried so severely, he says he was tested above his strength and beyond measure. Now, above his strength means he didn’t have the strength necessarily. But he did say that God delivered us. And he said, our sufficiency is not of ourselves. Our sufficiency is of God. He goes on to say a little later. So when Paul was suffering some great affliction that he prayed three times that God would take it away, God said, Jesus said to him, my grace is sufficient for you. My strength is made perfect in weakness. So, I mean, you might look around and say, well, there’s a lot of people I know who aren’t suffering like I am right now. But actually, they do suffer. Some of them may not suffer as much as you, and some will probably suffer more than you. We don’t have really any guarantee that every person suffering will be equal. But we are guaranteed that everyone will suffer. And everyone who does suffer, whether little or much, is going to need the grace of God. You cannot walk with Christ as a Christian without the grace of God. And it’s the Holy Spirit in you. that gives that grace as you trust in him. So, I mean, that’s what we do. We have to always be trusting in him. Now, it’s hard to trust in him if we only think about him when we get in special times of crisis. In other words, if we don’t have a life of always trusting him day by day, moment by moment, which is the normal Christian life. It may not be the average. Maybe a lot of people in church don’t do that. But that’s, in the Bible, that’s normal Christianity, is that you live, it’s no longer you that live, it’s Christ who lives in you. He lives his life through his Spirit in you. You get the supernatural life when you’re born again. And that supernatural life is the life of Christ, lived through his Spirit, giving the grace to help in time of need. And, you know, someone who doesn’t live that way isn’t living a normal Christian life. But someone who is living that way will find that the grace that’s given in small trials is adequate, and then when the greater trials come, the grace is greater too. God doesn’t expect you to do anything in your own strength, but he does expect you to be faithful. And that means he expects you to, you know, not quit. He’ll give you the strength to continue, but you have to decide to continue. You have to decide not to quit. So… Like I said, in marriage, if you get married, you make a vow that no matter how bad it gets, you’re not going to quit. You’re not going to leave. That’s what vows are for, to hold people together because life is full of trials, including marriage being full of trials. So we make vows about that. And just because we choose to be faithful people and we trust God to help us to be faithful because we know we need his help, We stay. We stay in hard marriages. We stay in hard circumstances. We certainly stay in the faith when, you know, it’d be in some ways easier to just kind of give up. Though I say it’d be easier to give up. I can’t even imagine it ever being easier to give up. I have been through some very, very severe trials in my life. I’m not whining about it, but it’s just there are some. There are some that are as bad as I could ever imagine going through. I guess I could imagine worse ones if I tried really hard. But I’ve been through a series of trials that were very, very difficult. I’d say above my strength to endure. But God has always given the grace to help in time of need. And I’ve never felt in those trials that my life would be easier if I just gave up on Christ. In fact, I knew very well I don’t know how I’d survive them if I gave up on Christ. I’ve always wondered how do people who don’t know Christ survive? get through these things without being totally wrecked. You know, because life is a wrecking ball. And Christ gives grace to those who trust in him. So, I mean, I don’t know what your trials are right now. But I can say that, I mean, you asked how are we supposed to get through it. We get through it by trusting Christ. I mean, I don’t know how much time you spend reading the scriptures, but faith comes by hearing. And hearing by the word of God, the Bible says. So, You really need to acquaint yourself with what God’s Word says so that you can affix your faith to it and say, okay, I’m going to trust God about this. Because actually all the reassurance you need can be found in Scripture. I’d suggest for many, and maybe for yourself, just reading the Psalms out loud as prayers. Now, some of them aren’t actual prayers. Some of them are something else, but most of them are prayers. And if you just read, you know, several psalms in a row out loud and think of them as you’re, you know, the ones that are prayers, that you’re praying this to God. And you’ll find promises in there, too, that God is making to those who are, you know, seeking his help. That would help. Now, I’m going to suggest to you, because I’ve got a break coming up and I can’t go longer. Go to our website, if you can, to thenarrowpath.com. That’s thenarrowpath.com. And there’s a tab there that says Topical Lectures. And if you click on that tab, you’ll see a list of various topical lecture series I’ve taught. And one of them is called Making Sense of Suffering. Making Sense of Suffering. It’s only four lectures, but I strongly recommend that you listen to those lectures because that’s kind of what you’re asking about. And I’m suggesting that that would be a resource we have at our website that would be helpful to you, I think. All right. I appreciate your call, and I’m very sorry for whatever it is you’re going through. But, again, just realize that it says – In 1 Peter chapter 5, I think it’s verse 8 or 9, it says, of course, the devil roams about like a roaring lion seeking whom he may devour. It says, whom resist. Resist him steadfast in the faith, knowing that the same afflictions are being accomplished in your brothers throughout the world. In other words, the Christians throughout the world are going through the same thing you are. The devil is seeking to undermine your confidence in God, seeking to discourage you so you won’t trust in God, won’t obey God, won’t believe in him. Just resist those temptations. And know that this isn’t something you’re alone in. Everybody goes through this. It might not seem to you like everyone around you is going through what you’re going through, and they may not at the moment, but everyone does at some time or another. You know, go to that series of lectures at thenarrowpath.com under topical lectures called Making Sense Out of Suffering. I need to take a break. We have another 30 minutes coming up. Our website is thenarrowpath.com. And I’ll be gone for 30 seconds and be back for another half hour. So stay tuned.
SPEAKER 02 :
Is the Great Tribulation about to begin? Are we seeing the fulfillment of biblical prophecy unfolding before our very eyes? In the series, When Shall These Things Be?, Steve Gregg answers these and many other intriguing questions. The lecture series entitled, When Shall These Things Be?, can be downloaded in MP3 format without charge from our website, thenarrowpath.com.
SPEAKER 01 :
Welcome back to the Narrow Path radio broadcast. My name is Steve Gregg and we’re live for another half hour taking your calls. If you have questions about the Bible or the Christian faith or your Christian life, if you have a disagreement with the host, want to talk about that, whatever, we’ve got a phone number. Our lines are full right now, but I’ll give you the number because if you call in a few minutes… Lines will be opening up. So the number to call is 844-484-5737. That’s 844-484-5737. Our next caller is Marita from St. Paul, Minnesota. Hi, Marita. Welcome to The Narrow Path. Thanks for calling.
SPEAKER 08 :
Hello, Steve. Hi. I just have a quick question. I wanted to know, is cremation forbidden in the Bible for believers?
SPEAKER 01 :
No.
SPEAKER 08 :
Okay.
SPEAKER 01 :
A lot of Christians think it’s wrong, but they don’t have a biblical basis for saying it’s wrong. There’s a couple of things, a couple of arguments I’ve heard, or three. One is that in the Bible, of course, people’s expectation was that they’d be buried alive. And in some cases, pagans incinerated or cremated the bodies of their dead. But the Jews, generally speaking, did not practice that in the Old Testament. And therefore, burial is more biblical. Now, to say it’s more biblical just means that in biblical times, that’s what Jews did. There’s nothing in the Bible that says it has to be done that way. There’s nothing that says there’s any problem with burning the body. But there’s a couple of other reasons that are given that Christians sometimes feel like, well, it’s still inappropriate. One is they say your body is the temple of the Holy Spirit. And whoever destroys God’s temple, God will destroy, the Bible says. Well, it is true that our bodies are the temple of the Holy Spirit. As long as the Holy Spirit is living in us, when we die and we move out, I don’t think the Holy Spirit stays there and goes into the grave and lets the worms eat his house. I mean, the body is going to be destroyed anyway. And as soon as we’re dead, that’s when it starts happening. And your body is the temple of the Holy Spirit while you’re alive and the Holy Spirit is living in you. When you’re dead, it’s not the temple anymore. It’s a former temple. It’s a vacant temple. But, you know, so you’re not really destroying the temple of the Holy Spirit when you’re burning up a dead body. And the third thing that people have said, and this may be the thing most often said, is that Christ is going to raise the dead when he comes back, and they feel like it’s necessary to keep the dead body intact so he can do that. But, of course, people who really think that way, I think, are not really thinking very clearly, because most people who’ve lived and died Their bodies are not intact anyway, even if they were buried intact. They’re not now. You know, they’ve gone back to the dust. You know, cremation turns a body into ashes and dust. But then if you don’t cremate it, your body goes back to ashes and dust too. It just takes a little longer. If the body cannot be resurrected from the state of being ashes and dust, then we’re all going to be in trouble unless we get raised just a few days after we die. And what about the Christian martyrs who were burned at the stake? That was a very common way for Christians to die for their faith in the early centuries of the church. They were burned at the stake. Well, can God not raise their body then because somebody else burned it? Obviously, God’s not going to have any problem with that. God made Adam’s body from the dust of the earth, and he can make our resurrection bodies from the dust of the earth not a problem for him.
SPEAKER 08 :
Okay, thank you so much.
SPEAKER 01 :
All right, thank you for your call. All right, let’s see. We’ve got Jim from Sacramento, California. Welcome to the Narrow Path, Jim.
SPEAKER 07 :
Good afternoon, Steve, and thanks to everybody who’s been praying for me. I had my pacemaker implanted this morning.
SPEAKER 01 :
Oh, well, congratulations for a successful operation. What’s your question, bro?
SPEAKER 07 :
Okay, I wanted to go to… And incidentally, when the subject of Revelation came up, it talks about, and Jesus talked about every eye would see him. When he came, and if you look at the Old Testament, that Coming on the clouds is a metaphor for one or more of God’s judgments.
SPEAKER 01 :
That’s true. That’s true. Hey, your phone is all crackly, and it always is. I’m not sure why. I don’t know why they don’t have a good landline. You’re on a landline. I know that. I can’t understand why it’s always that crackly.
SPEAKER 07 :
From a nursing facility that I’m in.
SPEAKER 01 :
Yeah, it seems like they could get a good line in there. Anyway, Jim, do you have a question for me? Because we’ve got our lines full. I’ve got to talk to a lot of people here.
SPEAKER 07 :
Yes, I do, and thank you. I just wanted to get that point across real quickly, and my question is this. With respect to the book of Revelation, since John makes no mention of the January 5th, A.D. 6-8, deaths of Peter and Paul on the same day, and he makes no reference to the destruction of Jerusalem. And quite apparently, by the way, Revelation is a letter
SPEAKER 01 :
Right, right. So you’re going to ask me, since he made no reference to that, would that prove that it was written before those things happened, correct?
SPEAKER 07 :
Exactly.
SPEAKER 01 :
Right. Well, I don’t know if it would be proof of it, but it certainly would prove… I mean, if he had mentioned it, you know, even so, if, you know, I think Paul and Peter might have died around 67 even. You know, if Revelation had mentioned it as something that had recently happened, it still could be written before 70 AD. Now, to say that it, you know, if it was written after those events, it would certainly have mentioned them. is there an argument some people do make for Revelation being written before 70 AD? Like, if it was written after 70 AD, why wouldn’t he mention the fact that Jerusalem had fallen to the Romans? Why would he mention that Peter and Paul had died? Well, I mean, I have to say, that may be significant, but it’s not all determining. Because Revelation might be talking about something unrelated to those things. And, of course, you know… I could do a whole radio program here without mentioning 9-11, you know, and the fall of the Twin Towers, you know. Now, that doesn’t mean the Twin Towers haven’t fallen from my perspective and that they’re not in my past. It just means that I wouldn’t mention it in every conversation if I’m writing stories. Like in my book that I wrote on the kingdom of God, I didn’t mention the twin towers falling in there. They just didn’t come up. It wasn’t part of the subject matter. And so if Revelation was talking about something else than that, then, you know, even if they had happened before it was written… it might not mention it. But I personally think that it was written before those things happened, at least before the fall of Jerusalem, and that that subject was on the Revelator’s mind. So I’m with you on that. I mean, I think the evidence, I think there’s plenty of evidence that the book of Revelation was written before 70 A.D. But I’m not 100% sure that the failure to mention the death of Peter and Paul in the book of Revelation would necessarily prove that because there’s an awful lot of things to write about besides the death of Peter and Paul. Those were significant things. I mean, the book of Acts doesn’t even mention the death of any of the apostles except Judas and James, you know, and yet all the apostles died at some point and very possibly many of them died before Acts was written. But, you know, each writer has a certain focus and there might be things they don’t mention that we think would be worth mentioning. So I don’t know if we could determine the date from that absence of mention. But on the other hand, I do think there’s lots of evidence that Revelation was, in fact, written before 70 A.D. Thanks, Jim. I appreciate your call. We’re going to talk to Yvette from Rancho Cucamonga, who we tried to get on earlier, but the phone wasn’t working. Are you there now, Yvette? Maybe not. You’re not there? Okay, she’s not there. What Yvette did in this case, I don’t think she did the previous time, but she got on hold and then she took her phone somewhere to do other things. And she figured that when she hears me call her name on the phone, she’ll just answer it. But the problem is. I’m sorry, she listened on the radio, not on her phone. If she was on the phone, she would have known I was calling her name. If she was listening on the radio, she won’t hear me calling her name for another 30 seconds because it’s delayed. So she was not at the phone. That’s the problem. So if you get on hold, if you want to be on when I call your name, you have to stay on your phone so that you’ll know I called your name. Otherwise, if you’re listening on the radio, you won’t hear it for a considerable time after that. Walter in San Diego, California. Welcome to The Narrow Path. Thanks for calling.
SPEAKER 06 :
Hello. Hello. So I wanted to ask you a question. I wanted to ask about this end times teaching. Is there an actual teaching somewhere in the Bible that says that there will be an end times because the universe and the earth is eternal? Well, nothing that’s physical is eternal.
SPEAKER 01 :
For the simple reason that there’s a second law of thermodynamics. The sun, for example, can’t be eternal because it’s burning up billions of tons of fuel every second. It will take, they say, hundreds of millions of years before the sun burns up. But it is burning up fuel. Eventually there won’t be any more fuel there. So, I mean, everything physical breaks down. The second law of thermodynamics says that everything goes from order to disorder. Sometimes it takes a very long time. For example, if you have a big rock in your backyard, it probably won’t wear down to nothing in your lifetime. But it will wear down to nothing eventually if millions of years pass. It’s just that’s what happens. So, no, the earth is not eternal. Now, I realize that there are some things in the Psalms that say, you know, the earth endures forever. This is, to my mind, true. It’s using the word olam in Hebrew, which doesn’t necessarily mean forever. It often is translated that way. But olam just means a long ways off. especially it refers to things that are hidden from our view because they’re beyond the horizon of sight. But it doesn’t necessarily mean they’re literally forever. So to say the earth endures olam, which is translated forever, just means whenever the earth is ending, it’s beyond our horizon of sight. We can’t see when it’s going to be very far off. So is there an end to the world? Well, it seems to me there is because the Bible talks about a new heavens, a new earth that come about when the former heavens and earth You read about that in 2 Peter 3, verses 10-13. It says, The day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night, in which the heavens will be dissolved, and the elements will melt with the fervent heat, and the earth and all the works that are in it will be burned up. And he says in verse 13, but we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and new earth in which dwell righteousness. And, of course, Revelation also talks about a new heavens and new earth where there’s no more curse. That is, the curse that came on the earth in the Garden of Eden will no longer be. And we’re told specifically there will be no more death, no sighing, no sorrow, no sickness, no weeping. So, I mean, that hasn’t happened yet. That’s said to be in the new earth So there will be an end to this world But it won’t be the end of all time because there will be another world that goes on forever, but it will not be It will not apparently be subject to the degrading that is entropy caused by the second law of thermodynamics and this is perhaps because of That law of entropy, or at least that function of entropy, where everything breaks down like it does, maybe that’s part of the curse. Now, entropy, by the way, is a good thing, too. I mean, there would have to be some entropy just for food to digest, for example. or for, you know, dead clippings to rot and go back to the soil and things like that. I mean, you’d have a big pile of dead rats and insects and things like that if they never decayed and went back to the land. So I don’t know exactly how entropy will affect the world, but we are told there will be a new heavens and new earth, and our bodies will be immortal. But that hasn’t happened yet. So the end of the present order and the coming of the second order is what is referred to as the end, that point in time, the end of the first order. Whenever we say, is there really an end, we’d have to say, of what? Some of the times that the Bible talks about the end, it’s talking about the end of the Old Covenant and the end of Jerusalem, which came to an end in 70 A.D. But there’s other things. that talk about seemingly the end of the world as we know it. And so, you know, as far as talking about end times, I don’t really believe that the Bible talks much about end times. But it does talk about the earth coming to an end, this earth, and replaced with a new heavens and new earth. So that’s how I would understand that. Some people, of course, there are different views. I’m very familiar with different views about that. Oh, Yvette is back from Rancho Cocoa. Come on, third time. It’s a charm. Are you there? Hello, Yvette.
SPEAKER 04 :
Thank you for taking my call. Sure. I have a difficult understanding between quenching the Holy Spirit and grieving the Holy Spirit. Can you explain the difference and which one is worse than the other? And can they both be forgiven? And what is your definition of unpardonable sin? For unpardonable sin, is that only applicable for the believers or, in fact, also the unbelievers? And I’m going to get my answer off the phone. Thank you, Steve.
SPEAKER 01 :
Okay, thanks for calling back. Good to talk to you. Well, the idea of grieving the Holy Spirit… is actually only mentioned once in the Bible, in Ephesians 4.30, where Paul says, Do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God by which you were sealed for the day of redemption. Now, that is kind of a summary of things he’s been telling them to do, which apparently to fail to do what he’s saying would grieve the Holy Spirit. He’d be grieved. Now, to be grieved means you’re sorry. God has been grieved. We read of God being grieved before the flood. It says God… He regretted that he made man and it grieved him at his heart to see how bad things had become. So we know God has emotions of grief. And Paul says, listen, let’s not give him any grief. You know, the things he’s talking about, for example, a few verses earlier, verse 26, be angry and do not sin. Do not let the sun go down on your wrath. Don’t give place to the devil. Let him who stole no longer steal. but rather let him labor working with his hands in what is good, that he may have something to give to him who has need. Let no corrupt communication proceed out of your mouth, but what is good for necessary edification, that it may impart grace to the hearers, and do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God. So, and then he talks about let all bitterness, wrath, anger, clamor, and those kinds of things be put away from you. So all these things I think he’s suggesting are things that the Holy Spirit is not pleased with. And if we do these things that he’s telling us not to do, It’s not just that we’re disobeying Paul. It’s that we’re actually going to bring God grief. His spirit in us is going to be grieved by those things. And Paul says something similar to it. He doesn’t use the same expression. But he says that in 1 Thessalonians 4, he says in verse 3, For this is the will of God, your sanctification, that you should abstain from sexual immorality. that each of you should know how to possess his own vessel in sanctification and honor, not in passion of lust, like the Gentiles who don’t know God, that no one should take advantage and defraud his brother in this matter, that is, don’t sleep with your brother’s wife, because the Lord is the avenger of all such. And we also forewarned you and testified of this, for God did not call us to uncleanness, but holiness. Therefore, he who rejects this does not reject man, but God, who has also given us his Holy Spirit. Now, what he’s saying is behave yourself the way God wants people to. And if you don’t do what I’m saying, it’s not just me, a man. You’re not just ignoring instructions from a man. You’re ignoring God’s instruction. He’s given us the Holy Spirit. And I think that mention that he’s given us the Holy Spirit. is probably, I’m going to say, I think he’s probably saying, you grieve the Holy Spirit if you do this, and so you don’t want to do that. But the expression, don’t grieve the Holy Spirit, comes only from one verse, and that is the verse in Ephesians 4.30. Now, he said, what about quenching the Spirit? Well, that’s something that’s only mentioned once also. That’s mentioned in 1 Thessalonians 5.19, where Paul gives a series of instructions. Rejoice always, pray without ceasing, in everything give thanks, do not quench the spirit, do not despise prophecies, test all things, hold fast that which is good, abstain from every form of evil. Now, do not quench the spirit is in the context of Don’t despise prophecies and test all things and hold fast what is good. I think what he’s saying is that, you know, he says in this and other places that you have to test all things. In 1 Corinthians 14, he says, let the prophets speak two or three and let the others judge. You can’t just accept everything that’s spoken in the church as if it’s a true prophecy, but some of them may be. You don’t want to despise prophecy altogether. But you want to test and make sure you hold on to the good ones and reject the bad ones. But you don’t want to quench the spirit. which I think is a way of saying, you know, if you’ve been in a church where there’s been a whole bunch of abuse of tongues or prophecy or something like that, I mean, there’s a lot of people doing those things, and some of it’s fake and some of it’s disruptive. The temptation may be, okay, nobody prophesy anymore. Nobody speak in tongues anymore. No one do anything, you know, exercise a spiritual gift. That would be quenching the spirit. The word quench means to put out a fire. If the Spirit’s trying to flame up, don’t try to put him out. If he’s trying to speak, don’t try to silence him. But you do need to test everything that claims to be from him and reject what isn’t. So he’s saying we’ve got some responsibilities. It would be a lot easier if every time somebody said, thus says the Lord, we could just assume, okay, that must be really God. Or if we could just say, it’s hard to judge these things, so let’s just not have anyone say that anymore. Let’s just have no one prophesying. Well, that’d be easier, too. You can either just quench the spirit altogether, or you can fail to test the spirits. But he says, no, you’ve got to do the harder thing. You’ve got to test the spirits. Now, quenching the spirit and grieving the spirit, therefore, are different things, although it may, in fact, grieve the spirit to be quenched. Now, as far as the unpardonable sin, there’s a lot of views about that. I’m going to tell you, I think what people call the unpardonable sin, is probably the total rejection of Christ. And you said can only believers do that or unbelievers? I think primarily unbelievers do it. But I think Christians could do it. I think Christians could turn against Christ, could reject him. It’s been done. People have done it. People who were following Christ for decades have sometimes turned against him. You can find plenty of them given their stories on YouTube. But the truth is, It’s primarily, I think, referring to people who simply reject the gospel all their whole life, not necessarily people who were Christians. In any case, you don’t have to worry about it if you’re following Jesus. Anyone who’s following Jesus is not guilty of any kind of unpardonable sin. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness, 1 John 1, 9 says. So the blood of Jesus Christ cleanses us from all sin as we walk in the light, says in 1 John 1, 7. So, you know, there’s no sins that won’t be cleansed if we’re walking with the Lord. It’s when people refuse to walk with the Lord or turn from the Lord. that that kind of thing happens. Okay, we’ll probably only get one more call in in the time we have, maybe two. Rayma from Detroit, Michigan. It says Detroit, Minnesota on my screen, but I think it’s Detroit, Michigan. Hi, Rayma.
SPEAKER 03 :
Hi, Steve. I think you just answered a question earlier, the scripture before 1 Thessalonians 5.19. What scriptures would you share to justify that? Pre-marital sensual kissing is grieving the Holy Spirit. I miss the scripture. I have a cluster of 60- and 70-year-old friends who are involved in this, and they are very sarcastic. Well, it doesn’t say you can’t, so I need specific scriptures, and I think you just shared one.
SPEAKER 01 :
Okay.
SPEAKER 03 :
They’re not married.
SPEAKER 01 :
Yeah, just abstain from fleshly lust, the Bible says. So you want to try to please the Lord by being as pure as you can. I don’t tell people where the line has got to be drawn because I mean to say, well, you can’t hold hands. You can’t hug. You can’t kiss in any way before you’re married. That would be legalistic because that’s going to certainly beyond anything the Bible says. But it’s also clear that certain lines could be crossed. uh… you know but before those lines are i mean if you’ve got the holy spirit You need to be led by the Spirit. And, you know, if you’re crossing the lines that the Holy Spirit opposes to, I would assume you’re feeling conviction of the Spirit about it, unless you quench the Spirit about it. So, anyway, yeah, I don’t think I can tell where those lines are drawn for you, but the Holy Spirit certainly can. And people should definitely be sensitive to what the conviction of the Holy Spirit tells them about those things. And in San Bernardino, I don’t know if we have very much time, just a couple of minutes. Go ahead.
SPEAKER 03 :
Thank you. What is the purpose of baptism?
SPEAKER 01 :
The purpose of baptism is, well, actually some groups believe that baptism takes away original sin, and that’s why they administer baptism to infants. But in the Bible, no infants were baptized that we know of in the Bible, nor is anyone told to baptize infants. All the cases of baptism we know of, happened to people who became believers. You know, it’s something you believe and then you’re baptized. In Mark chapter 16, I think it’s verse 16, it says, Whosoever believes and is baptized shall be saved. Whoever does not believe shall be damned. So believes and baptized. In Acts chapter 2, I think it’s verse 38 says, When people said, what must we do? Peter said, repent and be baptized. So the Bible talks about believing and be baptized. It talks about repenting and be baptized. It doesn’t talk about being baptized if you haven’t believed or repented. Repentance and belief occur at conversion. And at that point, baptism should occur also. So, you know, repenting, believing, being baptized, those are things that should be happening now. To the same person, roughly at the same time. Of course, you’ll believe and repent before you’ll actually get in the water. But essentially, in the Bible times, when someone repented, they went into the water. And they were baptized, which was, you say, what’s it for? It was a symbol. It symbolized that you were passing from your old life into a new kingdom, the kingdom of God. You’re now becoming, you’ve got a new life that God’s given you and a new definition and reason for living. And, you know, it basically is your proclamation that you are in another life now. You’re following Jesus now, and you’re not going to follow him. your old ways anymore. I’m out of time. God bless you. Thanks for your calls. You’ve been listening to The Narrow Path. We are listener supported. You can write to us at The Narrow Path, P.O. Box 1730, Temecula, California, 92593. Or you can go to our website, thenarrowpath.com. Thanks for joining us.
