Throughout the episode, Steve does not shy away from challenging topics, such as the intricacies of politics within a Christian context and the delicate balance of navigating family issues through a biblical lens. Listen as Steve breaks down listener queries about the significance of political stands for Christian faith and engages in a thoughtful discussion on deliverance ministries. With thorough biblical exploration and practical advice, you are sure to embark on a reflective journey into applying scripture to daily life’s challenges, ensuring listeners leave informed and inspired.
SPEAKER 1 :
Thank you.
SPEAKER 09 :
Good afternoon, and welcome to the Narrow Path Radio Broadcast. My name is Steve Gregg, and we’re live for an hour each weekday afternoon, taking your calls. If you’d like to call in with questions about the Bible or the Christian faith or disagreements you might have with the host, we’ll talk to you about those happily. The number to call is 844-484-5757. 37, and I’m looking at a full switchboard, so if you call right now, you will not get through. The lines will be busy, but that changes quickly and throughout the hour. So call randomly, and you may find lines have opened up. That is very often the case. 844-484-5737. Yeah, Friday, I’m sorry we weren’t live. I intended to be. We were actually… I was trying to hook my equipment up. Just before showtime, I was trying to get my equipment hooked up. There was no obvious reason why it wouldn’t hook up. I’m going to have to have my equipment looked at, my traveling equipment. I was in Minnesota, and it didn’t work. So we had to play a recorded program. I do not like to do that. You may know if you listen regularly, I’d rather be alive seven days a week then play a recorded program or take time off. I enjoy doing this every day. And if there’s ever a time when it’s a recorded show, it is not my first choice. It’s always something that has made it impossible to go live. But we’re live today and hopefully all week long, as usual. I have some announcements to make. Of course, I’m going to Oregon. Later this – well, actually next month, but it’s only a few weeks from now. And I’ll be speaking about 11 or so days in various places in Oregon in October. So if you’re in Oregon and want to come to any of those, you’ll find those listed at thenarrowpath.com under the tab that says announcements. And there you’ll also find, if you’re in Southern California, this Saturday – A couple things are happening in Southern California. In Temecula, Saturday morning, we have our men’s Bible study. Now, we usually do this once a month, but it’s been interrupted a number of times by my travels. But this Saturday, men’s Bible study in Temecula, 8 o’clock in the morning. And also in the evening, the Boynton Park meeting. Now, the Boynton Park meeting, we’ve been doing this for over 10 years, maybe 12 years, I’m not sure, monthly meetings. once a month on Saturday nights in Point of Park. And like I said, it’s been over a decade that we’ve been doing this, but we’re winding it down, partly just because I’m so busy with other things, and although it’s not badly attended, it’s not one of the most highly attended things that I do, and therefore we have other things to do. And Yet, we have two more Boyd Department meetings. One will be this Saturday, and one will be in November. And this Saturday, I’m going to be doing an overview of the whole Bible. Now, what I’ve been doing for the past several years, each month, is the overview of a book of the Bible. And we’ve gone through all of them. And now I’m just going to do an overview of the whole Bible. Now, I’ve done that a few times before, and I’ve always been surprised how popular that is, that is how many people want to come out and hear an overview of the whole Bible because it’s good to get a look at the whole thing from a bird’s eye view and so my wife thought it’d be good before we just close these meetings down to do an overview of the Bible and I agreed with her and we’ll do that this Saturday in Boyna Park and then there’ll be one more Boyna Park meeting not next month because I’ll be in Oregon but in November and that’ll just be a Q&A and that’ll be our last meeting that we have planned in Boynton Park, the last meeting of many, many years of doing it. All right, so those announcements are out there. We’re going to go to the phones now and talk to Kerry in Fort Worth, Texas. Hi, Kerry. Welcome to The Narrow Path.
SPEAKER 08 :
Yeah, Steve, I just have a couple things. I’ve heard you speak or mention very often that you have known people who have walked away from the faith, and I was just wondering, have you ever known anybody to come back to faith?
SPEAKER 09 :
Yes. I mean, I’m trying to think of this. There was a musician I used to play with quite a bit, a Christian musician. And he fell away for a while. And then he came back and he died of complications from several different organ failures. But he was back with the Lord after he had fallen away. And also, I’d say the same about Lonnie Frisbee. Many people know who he is from the movie The Jesus Revolution. Many also know that he fell away for a while and for several years. And then he did come back to the Lord, and he was a believer when he died. So, yeah, I’ve known people who have come back.
SPEAKER 08 :
Oh, well, that’s good. The other thing, in my Sunday school class a week or so ago, had a man who had missionary ties in the Ivory Coast over in Africa. And he had just recently come back from there, and he was telling about what was going on. And he mentioned in this one church that Sunday that they baptized like 1,400 people. And so I raised my hand and said, do you mean there’s a revival going on over there? And he said, no, over there, that’s normal Christianity. And I was wondering if you might just comment on what he said.
SPEAKER 09 :
Right. Well, I have not, I’ve not been to the Ivory Coast. I’ve been to a few African countries, but I’ve not been there. Uh, I know that there are, you know, in South Saharan Africa, Christianity is growing very, very rapidly. Um, And yet, I have to say, when we talk about Christianity growing in Africa or in some other third world places, a lot of times the Christianity there is somewhat like an inch deep and a mile wide. Or it might even be an inch deep and an inch wide. Sometimes it’s just not very deep. A lot of times, I mean, I’d want to know what gospel is being preached there. Because if it’s a come and get it kind of a gospel, when I was in Africa… whenever I turn on Christian TV there, it was all word of faith. It was all health and wealth gospel being preached on every channel. And so, you know, I guess you could get a lot of people to say, yeah, I’ll be baptized if what you’re telling them is you’ll be healthy and wealthy for doing it. And many people might do so who have zero commitment to Jesus Christ and entirely a commitment to themselves and their own health and prosperity. I mean, this is… This is problematic when the gospel is watered down or misrepresented. Now, I think the gospel has been misrepresented in many parts of the world, including America. And therefore, you know, a lot of times you can water it down enough that people who have no actual interest in personal discipleship and laying down their lives and carrying a cross for Jesus would nonetheless come forward and get baptized. And I don’t know what’s happening in the Ivory Coast, so I don’t know that that is happening. All I can say is my own experiences in Africa and my my exposure to the gospel as it’s preached to most of the people over there, at least in the media there, would make me think the gospel they’re being preached is not the gospel as we find it in Scripture. Now, that doesn’t mean that nobody there finds Jesus, because you can find Jesus even if the gospel you hear is rather poorly represented. But you, in that case, find Jesus in spite of the gospel preached to you. I mean, if a person reaches out to Christ, Christ can reach back to them and find them. But their heart would have to be in the right place. They’d have to be prepared to be repentant of their sin and trusting in Christ. And even a person who’s heard the gospel poorly or inadequately preached can have a heart that’s right toward God and come to Christ. So I would certainly not say that all those baptisms are wrong. I imagine there are people getting saved in Africa, as there are all over the world. But I’d be suspicious that perhaps not all of them represent true conversions.
SPEAKER 08 :
Well, he was saying that this church, as soon as they’re baptized, they put the people into service. That’s good. That’s a good thing. reaching out and attending classes and things like that. And it was kind of a Baptist ministry. Okay.
SPEAKER 09 :
Yeah, so maybe the gospel is being preached in a good way there. I don’t know. All I’m saying is I don’t know what they’re being preached, so I can’t really give an informed opinion about what’s going on there.
SPEAKER 08 :
All right. Thank you, Steve.
SPEAKER 09 :
Okay, Terry. Thanks for your call. God bless. Okay, Robert in Pinole, California.
SPEAKER 04 :
Welcome to The Narrow Path. Hi, Steve. I have two questions. I hope you don’t mind. The first one is, as a member of a church, is it important that we know where the pastor stands politically? And the second question is, this church has been in existence for over 80 years. The new pastor has been there about three years, and he’s introducing, he’s going to start having one pastor preach now. And he said, if you’re If you’re not okay with it, he said, find another church. He was loving about it, but he said, you know, if you’re not on board, find another church. And is that grounds for leaving the church? Those are my two questions. Thank you.
SPEAKER 09 :
Well, as far as your second question is concerned, it sounds like by the pastor’s own statement, it’s grounds for leaving the church. He’s telling you to. I mean, if you feel that the Bible says that women are not to be pastors, and I feel that the Bible says that. I mean, I don’t just feel it. That’s what I read in the Bible. Then I just am not on board with it. Now, I’m not a fiercely critical person of it. I’ve sat in churches where women preach before. I mean, I usually would go there not knowing that they had a woman pastor. But when a woman came up to the pulpit and began, I didn’t walk out in protest or anything. I just went through the church service like anyone else. I didn’t go back. You know, it’s one thing to say it’s a hill to die on for me, so that if a church has a female pastor, you know, I’m going to carry signs out in front and protest. I’m not going to do that. But if I were going to a church and they’re starting to have female pastors, yeah, I’m not okay with that. It’s not biblical. I would like to think it’s hard enough to find a church that wants to even be biblical. But when a church does something to say, we don’t even care to be biblical. We’re just going to do, the Bible says don’t do this, but we’re doing it anyway. Well, okay, then I’d say your pastor himself said, you might as well leave, find another church. So to say, is that grounds for finding another church? Yeah, you’d be submitting to the authority in that church. They’re saying leave. And of course, probably there’d be reasons to leave eventually anyway. So maybe he’s just giving you a heads up so you can do it before your discomfort level gets higher. As far as the pastor’s politics, is it important to know that? Well, some people think of politics as a realm independent of theology. And in some ways, that could possibly be the case. But in most cases… Political policies either reflect justice or injustice. Everyone who rules, everyone who governs, is obligated before God to do so with justice. Now, therefore, the policies, let’s just say there’s two political parties, and one has one approach to a certain moral issue, And the other has the opposite approach to a certain moral issue. Well, obviously, the one who’s a Christian, if he’s really a Christian, is going to support the candidate that takes the right moral issues or that takes the right justice issues. So it’s not as if politics is 100% secular. It certainly is not. It’s a moral issue. Now, there may be political issues that are not moral, but more and more, In the time we live in, the political realm has co-opted to itself moral issues that didn’t used to be moral issues. I should say political. They didn’t used to be political issues. Take something like, you know, take abortion, the classic ones, you know, and let’s just say gay marriage or whatever. There’s a couple of things that are always, they always come up in the conversation. Well, okay, should that be political? Should it be a political issue whether gay people have the right to marry or not? I don’t even think that marriage itself is supposed to be a political issue, but a political party begins to adopt it, and the other party says, well, no, we’re not on the side of that. Well, suddenly you’ve got an issue that’s a moral issue, and one party is championing the immoral side, and the other is championing the moral side. Same thing with murdering babies. Now, I think murdering babies… is a moral issue, and of course it is a political issue if we’re deciding whether we’re going to make it legal to murder. It should never be legal to murder anybody. But that shouldn’t be controversial. That shouldn’t be a political controversy. Every nation should have laws against murder of innocent human beings. That shouldn’t be a political question. That’s just sort of a universal moral question. Now, if you have a political party saying, well, we’re going to take a stand in favor of murdering innocent human beings, well, then they’ve taken a moral issue and made it a political issue. Should the Christian have nothing to say about it? Well, no, I think Christians are supposed to say things. We’re supposed to disciple the nations. We’re supposed to teach them what Jesus said. We’re supposed to promote justice in the earth, because that’s what Jesus is said to do in the Bible. And so we’re his agents. So I think that if a pastor has a certain political position that promotes unjust political policies or justice, immoral political policies, that would concern me because it means he’s not following Christ. Because followers of Christ do not advocate for injustice or immorality. In doing so, that’s the opposite of following Christ. Now, some people think, well, but what if he just believes in Jesus and he’s going to go to heaven for that? No, you don’t go to heaven just because you believe in Jesus. If you have faith, such as the Bible describes, which is a saving faith, It’s not just having a mental belief that there’s a Jesus. It’s having a faith that forms your life, forms your attitudes, forms your standards. It means you’re devoted to following Christ, and Christ stands for something. He stands for righteousness. He stands for justice. So, I mean, obviously, if you’re not standing for righteousness and justice, you’re not standing with him. I mean, you can say all you want, I believe in Jesus. Yeah, but Jesus said, why do you call me Lord, Lord, and you don’t do what I say? We’ve really watered down what it means to be a Christian. But certainly if we were living in the first century with the apostles ruling the churches, as it were, they wouldn’t tolerate immorality in the church. We know that because Paul wrote about that in 1 Corinthians 5 and said we shouldn’t tolerate it. And they would never… you know, support the advocacy of injustice because that’s one thing God hates. So if a pastor has a set of political beliefs that embody injustice and immorality, then, yeah, I’d be very concerned about my pastor’s politics because politics just means governing. But governing is either done by a just principle or an unjust principle. It’s done by moral standards or immoral standards. So, of course, that’s something that’s very much in the wheelhouse of Christians’ concerns, it seems to me. All right. I hope that helps. Right? Thank you. Okay. Let’s talk to Brandon in Phoenix, Arizona. Brandon, welcome.
SPEAKER 06 :
Hey, Steve. How are you doing, brother?
SPEAKER 09 :
Good.
SPEAKER 06 :
So I’m sorry about the noise in the background. I’m at the gym right now. But I had a question. About a week ago, you talked about something about the seven years in the book of, I think, Daniel chapter 9. And you were saying something about that the seven years was not there for the trial and tribulation. And I don’t want to misquote you or something like that, but I was having a conversation with a brother in Christ yesterday after church, and we were talking about that, and he believes in, you know, the seven years of the trial, the tribulation, and stuff like that. And I did too once about a time, but I was listening to you talk about that, that the seven years is not actually in the Bible. Can you kind of break that down a little bit for me?
SPEAKER 09 :
Yeah, well, there is a mention of seven years in Daniel chapter 9, but there’s nothing about it that connects it with the end times. There’s nothing about it that identifies it as a tribulation period that Jesus or the book of Revelation spoke of. Jesus said in Matthew 24, 21, then there should be great tribulation, such as never was since the world began or ever shall be. He didn’t say how long it would be. Likewise, Revelation chapter 7 and verse 14 said these are those who are coming up out of the great tribulation. And they’ve washed their robes in the blood of the Lamb and so forth. Again, there’s no mention of how long the tribulation is. Those are the only two places in the Bible that speak of the Great Tribulation that your friend is talking about, and neither of them make any reference to its length. It could be a thousand years. It could be one year. It could be six months. I mean, it could be, there’s nothing there about a seven-year tribulation. Now, where you do get the seven years is from Daniel 9, but what you don’t get in Daniel 9 is any connection between the seven years and the tribulations. What you have in Daniel chapter 9 is 70 times 7 years. It’s called, in the English version, it’s used as 70 weeks. But Christians all pretty much agree that the weeks refer to periods of 7 years, not 7 days, as we would call a week. So 70 weeks would be 70 periods of 7 years. That’s 490 years. Now Daniel is told that that period of time, represents the period from the time that the going forth of a decree to rebuild Jerusalem happens. This is in Daniel 9.25. I’ll just give it to you. Know therefore and understand that from the going forth of the command to restore and build Jerusalem until Messiah the Prince, there shall be Now, he’s already said back in verse 24, 70 weeks are determined for your people and for your holy city. And he tells us in verse 25, from the going forth of the command to restore and build Jerusalem to the Messiah comes, there shall be, and then he breaks down the 70 weeks into three segments. There shall be seven weeks and 62 weeks. Now, that takes care of 64 of them. When you have seven and 62, you’ve got, of course, 69 weeks. Of these weeks, now if a week is seven years, 69 of those are going to be 483 years. But we have another seven years to deal with, another week. And it just says in verse 27, he shall confirm a covenant with many for one week. Now pretty much everyone agrees that that’s the remaining week that wasn’t mentioned earlier. That’s the 70th week. But it says, but in the middle of the week, he shall bring an end to sacrifice and offering. And on the wing of abominations there shall be one who makes desolate, even until the consummation which is determined is poured out on the desolate. So you’ve got a period of 70 segments of 7 years. A total of 490 years. And he speaks of 7 weeks and 62 weeks and 1 week. Altogether you’ve got all 70 of them there. There is no mention of a tribulation period anywhere in the passage. There is no mention of End times. Because the 70 weeks begins, he said, when there’s a decree to restore and rebuild Jerusalem. Now, there’s different opinions about when that decree was, but all camps agree that that was back in ancient times. That, you know, around the 5th century BC, there’s like three different dates that people have assigned to be the beginning of this period of time. But no matter which date you choose… you’re going to have a period ending around the time of Christ. You’re not going to have any of it extending to our time or to our future. So there’s not the slightest hint that any of these years or weeks are relevant to the end times. And so that’s what I say. There’s no mention in the Bible of a seven-year tribulation. There is a mention of seven years. But it’s not related to any tribulation. There’s no mention of a tribulation in connection with those seven years. And there’s certainly no mention that would identify those seven years as belonging to the end times. Daniel does not mention the end times. The angel that’s talking to him does not mention the end times here. He just talks about the period of time. from the decree till the Messiah, till the Messiah’s times. It also mentions the destruction of Jerusalem, which happened in 70 AD. So that’s like the farthest out, the latest event in this prophecy is the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 AD. And so, you know, there’s nothing beyond that that the prophecy mentions. So that’s why I say that there’s no mention of a seven-year tribulation because, I mean, I’m not saying that promoting a particular viewpoint. I’m just observing what’s true. There is no mention of a seven-year tribulation in the Bible.
SPEAKER 06 :
Okay. So, Steve, so there’s no – so what is Daniel talking about with the seven years? That’s just totally something different than the trial and tribulation? Oh, yeah. Sorry.
SPEAKER 09 :
It’s not related to tribulation at all, as far as we know. It says he shall confirm the covenant with many for a week. Well, Jesus did that. When he began his ministry, he came confirming the covenant’s blessings. The covenant was that all the nations of the world would be blessed through Abraham’s seed. And Jesus is Abraham’s seed. And so he began his ministry of bringing about the fulfillment of this blessing. And he has done so. He did so by dying and resurrecting. Paul said in Galatians chapter 3 that the blessing of Abraham is justification by faith and the receiving of the Holy Spirit. You just have to read Paul’s discussion of this in the middle of chapter 3 of Galatians. There are several verses, but he identifies the blessing of Abraham is justification by faith and the giving of the Holy Spirit. That’s what Jesus came and brought. That’s what the gospel announces. So Jesus confirmed that covenant, but in the middle of that week, that is three and a half years after his baptism, after he began preaching, he was cut off and he ended the sacrificial system because he brought instead the new covenant. which eliminates the sacrificial system. So he caused the sacrifices and offerings to cease. That is to say, legitimate sacrifices and offerings. Anyone can offer any sacrifice they want to, and the Jews did after that. But they weren’t worth anything. They were abolished by the new covenant, which Jesus brought. So that week began with Jesus’ ministry. And his death was in the middle of it. Now, as far as the rest of it, there’s different views of how it played out. But we, unfortunately, I don’t have time to go into that detail because we have a take-up incorporate. But I hope that’s helpful. You’re listening to The Narrow Path. We have another half hour coming. Don’t go away. Our website is thenarrowpath.com. Lots of stuff there, all free at thenarrowpath.com. I’ll be back in 30 seconds. Don’t go away.
SPEAKER 02 :
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SPEAKER 09 :
Welcome back to The Narrow Path radio broadcast. My name is Steve Gregg, and we’re live for another half hour, taking your calls. If you’d like to join us, the number to call is 844-484-5737. And somebody asked me during the break, what verses in Galatians was I referring to with that last caller? I mentioned that the blessing of Abraham, that is to be to all nations, Paul identified as justification by faith, and the giving of the Holy Spirit, which is what Jesus brought, both of those things. And so what verses was I talking about? I’m going to say about verses 8 through 14 in Galatians 3. I might just read them here. 6 through 14. Let’s start at 6 through 14. Paul said, Just as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness, therefore know that only those who are of faith are the sons of Abraham. And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the nations by faith, preached the gospel to Abraham beforehand, saying, In you all the nations shall be blessed. Now notice, the statement, In you, Abraham, all the nations will be blessed, Paul says that was God preaching the gospel to Abraham. All the nations will be blessed in him. But, in verse 8, he says, The scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the nations by faith, preached that gospel. In other words, In you all the nations will be blessed, Paul says, means that God would justify the nations by faith, justification by faith. Verse 9 says, So then those who are of faith are blessed with believing Abraham. That is, they have the same blessing he did. He was justified by faith. So are those who are of faith. They are blessed with him. And then there’s some more verses that goes on about the curse and Jesus took the curse and stuff like that. But it says in verse 14, So that the blessing of Abraham… which Paul has already identified as justification by faith, a few verses earlier, so that the blessing of Abraham might come upon the Gentiles in Christ Jesus, that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith. So Paul says the blessing of Abraham is that we would receive the promise of the Spirit through faith because we’re justified by faith. So when God said all the nations will be blessed through Abraham, that’s the Abrahamic covenant, right? Jesus came and confirmed that. And so, anyway, that’s the answer, if you’re wondering what verses I was alluding to there. Those are them. Galatians 3, verses 6 through 14. All right, let’s see. Our lines are full. Let me talk next to Jim in Sacramento. Jim, welcome to The Narrow Path.
SPEAKER 03 :
Yes, Steve. I’ve got a question for you. Good. By the way, I was rejoicing to hear… that church attendance was way up yesterday. There’s been a very positive response to the unfortunate assassination of Charlie Kirk. But what I’m wondering is… I do not understand, and I’ve got to recognize it’s a problem with me, not with God, because God, by His very nature, cannot make an error. But I don’t understand why God allowed this thing to happen.
SPEAKER 09 :
Well, you know, I will tell you this. I’m sure the early church didn’t know why God allowed Stephen to be stoned. He was a very great apologist. He was a debater. in Jerusalem on the side of Christ against the synagogue of the Libertines. And the church probably thought, well, he’s a great champion of ours. And then he got killed. And they probably thought, why did that happen? Frankly, I mean, I would think that many of the faithful Jews in the Old Testament wondered why God let their prophets get killed. And obviously the disciples wondered why God let Jesus get killed. Mary and Martha wonder why Jesus let Lazarus die when he could have healed him. Why does God let good people die? Well, for whatever purpose, all the cases I know of, God was able to make lemonade out of lemons, you know, in the case of Jesus especially. He was able to save the world through the death of Jesus. In his other cases, the Bible doesn’t say this, but one of the early church fathers, and I know you’re familiar with him, said, and it was Tertullian, said, the blood of martyrs is seed. And so, you know, when Stephen was stoned to death, that was a senseless death, but the church scattered out and evangelized the Gentiles as a result of it. You know, I mean, there’s always something that God can bring out of evil. Now, why God would let evil happen, I guess we’d have to ask, how could he not let evil happen unless he’s going to interfere with a million times a day in everybody’s free choices. I mean, you know, people can make free choices, and even very wicked ones that are very harmful to other people. Now, if God said, I’m going to give you guys all free choice, but if you’re going to do something really bad, I’m going to just interfere and won’t let you do that. Well, that’s not the approach God has taken. God’s approach has been to let people do what they’re going to do for the most part, and judge them in the end and reward them for what they’ve done. So, you know, if somebody murders an innocent man or child or woman on a subway train or whatever, that person will stand before God, and God is a just God. He certainly knows what penalties are due, and he can dish them out. On the other hand, you know, when Charlie Kirk or other people who die innocently stand before God, then he can reward them too. Paul seemed to think that the rewards of the next life were far greater than any joys that could be experienced in this life. When he was in prison in Philippi, he said he could be released and live on, but he’d rather die and go be with the Lord, which is far better. So, I mean, the idea here that a righteous man who dies, it’s a great tragedy. It’s a great tragedy to us, Because we need him. We need more people like that. He’s a good man. It’s not good for the world to have injustice and murder and things like that. So, I mean, that’s a bad thing. But it’s not bad for Charlie Kirk himself. You know, he’s with the Lord, and, you know, this thing really, you know, is going to work out much worse, I think, for the assassin than for the assassinated in eternity. Unless, of course, the assassin becomes saved, which we would hope that he should. We should hope that all people do. But why God lets this person die and doesn’t let that person die quite so soon? God lets everyone die. You know, I’ll bet if Charlie Kirk had lived another 50 years… or 60 years, he would have done a lot of good. And when he died, we think, oh, what a tragedy. We’ve lost, at 85 years old, we’ve lost a champion. And there’d be tributes to him and things. I mean, the thing is, we might wonder why did God let this person die at this age? You might remember I had a wife who died at age 25. Senselessly, she was hit by a reckless driver, just died instantly. We’ve been married for six months now. That didn’t seem very sensible to me. God gave me a wonderful, godly wife, and then he takes her away six months later. Why do you do that? It never occurred to me that God owed me an explanation, because when I married her, I knew she was going to die. I didn’t know she was going to die six months later, but I knew that either I would die and leave her a widow, or she would die and leave me a widow, or we’d both die at the same time at some point within the next century, easily. So… You know, if we’re going to lose everybody in the next century, you know, how can we decide what the best date is and what date would we prefer? You know, is there ever a good time to lose a good person or somebody you love? There’s never a good time from our point of view. But we trust that there’s a God who knows the right time for everyone. And a lot of times his choices don’t make sense to us. By the way, the fact that all these people were in churches yesterday, it’s always good to hear that people are suddenly awakened to the point where they want to seek God, if that’s what they’re doing. I’d also remember that when 9-11 took place, the churches were full for a few weeks after that, too. And some of us thought, well, maybe this will be a great revival in America. Although, in that case, unfortunately… It was short-lived, and eventually America went back to even a more corrupt condition than it was before. I hope that won’t happen in this case. I do believe, though I don’t know and I could be wrong, I do believe that Charlie Kirk’s influence on the younger generation may have some very positive lasting effects. And sometimes when a man dies, or a woman, the effect that they have increases over what it would have been if they’d lived on. I think of Keith Greene. very powerful influence for Christ the musician some of you too young to remember but I knew Keith and he died at age 28 and he was like the most famous and inspiring and you know influential Christian musician on the planet at the time and had a very positive effect on thousands and thousands of people and he died senselessly in an airplane wreck he wasn’t assassinated He died just in an airplane wreck. And everyone said, why, why, why? Well, I don’t know why. I really don’t know why. But God knows. God knows what would have been if he had not allowed that to happen. He knows what will happen because it happened. And one thing about the Christian worldview is we’re not the ones running the universe or the world. We don’t even decide when we’ll live or die. We are living out a life where we trust God that he’s in charge of things and we’ll do what’s right. We sometimes wonder why he doesn’t intervene to prevent some wrong that he could have prevented. And we may never know why he didn’t in some cases, but sometimes it becomes quite clear. that something positive has come from it that is worth more than simply the results of letting a person live on. I don’t know. I don’t know what God has in mind for this. But I don’t think God makes mistakes. And I believe in Charlie Kirk’s case as well as Keith Green’s, both of them, and my wife’s too who died, I believe they’re all quite ready to meet the Lord. And I don’t think any of them have any regrets about it now. But we suffer their loss, of course. Anyway, Jim, good question, but we don’t have the answers. But I appreciate you calling today. Aaron in Worcester, Massachusetts. Welcome.
SPEAKER 05 :
Yes. Hi, Steve. Thanks for taking my call. I’ve really enjoyed your program, and I had a quick question about deliverance ministry. Uh-huh. So a friend of mine has sent me some podcasts about them that another friend of hers is recommending that she do deliverance ministry, and she had questions for me about it. So one of the things that I’ve heard come up again and again is this idea of a person sinning in certain sins gives the devil or a demon a quote-unquote legal right to part of their soul. and that they need to break that legal right. I haven’t been able to think of any scriptural basis for that, and I was wondering if there was anything that you knew of.
SPEAKER 09 :
It’s commonly said among deliverance ministries that people become demon-possessed because they give ground or they give place to the devil, and whatever it is they have done to do so, more or less gives the devil or the demon legal standing to be there. And then the teaching goes on that you really can’t get the demon to leave unless that person repents of that thing that they did. Let’s just say they went to a seance or something and they got demonized. Well, then the teaching is, well, they’re probably not going to get delivered without repenting of and renouncing that occultic activity. That’s kind of a common teaching in the movement. But you’re right. I don’t know of any scripture that says anything about legal grounds or anything that the demons have. In fact, I would suggest that maybe the demons don’t really have what we could properly call legal grounds because Jesus died for the sins of the whole world and Jesus has all authority in heaven and earth. The devil doesn’t have any authority at all. But maybe if we avoid the word legal grounds, we could say there is something that gave an inroad to the demon And as long as that something continues to be unchanged, that demon seems to have access. I don’t know that I could say has legal grounds. I mean, the terminology is not the important thing. If somebody is involved in the occult or has been and is, you know, unrepentant, and if they became possessed, then it may well be that that demon exists. will continue to be there until that person renounces that thing because the thing they did is what invited the demon. And I don’t think – yeah, I used to think that, you know, Jesus – if I was like Jesus and I could, you know, just cast out demons wholesale and I always knew when someone was demon-possessed or not. I’d love to go into mental hospitals. They had those back then. That’s before they put everyone on drugs and put them back on the street. But back then they had mental hospitals. I’d love to go into these mental hospitals and just cast all the demons out of people. And I thought that would be true, but I was a teenager at the time, and I hadn’t really known much about this subject. What I find is that Jesus, as far as I know, never cast demons out of anybody unless they came to him looking for help. I mean, or in the case of a child whose father brought them seeking help. But, you know, as near as I can tell, Jesus didn’t go looking for demon-possessed people in order to cast demons out of them, but they showed up at his meetings. They interrupted him when he preached. They came running to him when he crossed a lake and sought his help and so forth, like the man of Gadara. It looks to me like when people wanted help, they came to Jesus and he delivered them. But I don’t see him going out to all the world to find all the demon-possessed people. all the witches and the warlocks and just casting demons out of them. I believe it’s kind of like salvation. I mean, it’s not the same as, but it’s perhaps on the same principle. Jesus would save everybody if they want to, but if they don’t want to, if they don’t seek him, they don’t believe in him, they don’t look to him, they’ll remain unsaved. And I think the same thing is probably true of the case of demon possession. So, seeking to be free would mean hopefully, willingness to renounce and repent of whatever thing they were doing that got them into that condition in the first place. Now, that’s an oversimplification, but I don’t believe that’s an improper way of looking at it. I think it’s more nuanced. I think there’s more complications than that. But I think that’s a general principle, that if somebody has allowed demons to come in by accident, becoming involved in something that does that to them. That you can’t just walk up and cast the demons out unless they want to stop doing the thing or they want to repent of doing the thing that invited them. I wouldn’t use the term legal grounds, though that’s a very common phrase used among deliverance Christians. I’m not sure the devil has any legal grounds to do anything in the world. I think he’s an illegitimate, false king. And Jesus has all authority in heaven and earth. which is why Jesus can simply walk around in a clean house. That’s why he could cast demons out of people at all. It’s because Satan really didn’t have any right to them anymore.
SPEAKER 05 :
That’s right. Christ is king.
SPEAKER 09 :
Amen. All right, brother. Thank you for your call. Raymond in Kent, Washington. Welcome. Welcome.
SPEAKER 07 :
Okay, so real quick, just a quick comment. I appreciate you, Steve, on your fishing walk and to the point of being consistent, even to the point of repenting for Friday, not being live.
SPEAKER 09 :
I hope I didn’t get demon possessed when I did that.
SPEAKER 07 :
Well, I’ll pay for delivery for you. All right, thanks. Okay, so the question real quick, I’m going to unpack it as quick as I can because I know we don’t have that much time. It’s about marriage and divorce. This is going to be a little bit of a Jerry Springer thing. So two people, they get married shortly after. Okay, so both get married. Both of them have a history of being sexually abused. Both of them are victims. So they both get married. The husband shortly after goes through a series of extreme abuse. Both are not Christians. They know of Christianity, but not Christians.
SPEAKER 09 :
He commits abuse against his wife?
SPEAKER 07 :
Is that what you mean? Yes. More of an extreme thing. They both know of Christians because they both have a Christian background from their families. Not really a healthy one, but they kind of know. Both of them are married. There’s a lot of Physical abuse, extreme abuse on the husband to the wife. The wife, of course, she’s not really, I mean, she knows a little bit about Christianity, but she goes based off of there’s no form of divorce at all whatsoever. So she tries to make it work out. Anyway, fast forward 15 years later, time and time again, there’s relapses. It gets better. It gets worse to the point, you know, he wants her to get up. She doesn’t want to. So he drags her by the hair down the stairs and just goes to town on her, broken ribs type situation. Anyway, so she decides as of present day to leave him, divorce him after periods of time of not repenting, not wanting to change his ways. So there’s spiritual and physical abuse. And this is where the crux gets in. So she’s already decided to divorce him, enough’s enough, going through the process. Well, she finds another man talking who also is a victim of sexual abuse on the same realm of what she is. So there’s a natural connection there. Anyway, so he helped kind of support her to further along the divorce. But now there’s a component of adultery in there, even though she is already going to divorce him anyways. And now she’s kind of more… leaning really into a Christian faith, so to speak, because I’ve talked to her, but there’s still this lining. And I don’t know how the repentance part of this works out. And, you know, so I don’t know if I gave you enough information.
SPEAKER 09 :
She’s not remarried, but she’s committing adultery with this new friend?
SPEAKER 07 :
Yes, and she’s about to get divorced, finalize it in a couple days. Okay. And my understanding…
SPEAKER 09 :
How has her husband responded to all this? Has he taken up with another woman?
SPEAKER 07 :
No.
SPEAKER 09 :
Okay. These situations obviously are very complex. I’m going to only give the simplest answer, and someone else will have to work out the details with them. But if she wants to, as you say, lean into her Christian faith, she’s going to have to stop committing adultery with this man, obviously. She’s going to have to back out of that relationship. She’s going to have to, if she wants to obey what the Scripture says, remain unmarried until such a time as either her husband is changed to the point that he can be trusted for her to go back to him, or until he has committed adultery himself, and then she has grounds for divorce. Now, she has given her husband grounds for divorce. If he divorced her right now because she’s been adulterous, he’s got every right to do it. Although, I’m not saying… I mean, he sounds like a really bad husband. But it sounds like she’s not a great wife either. I mean, if she’s sleeping with another guy. So I think both these people are quite guilty of violating their marriage. But if either of them decides to get right with God… then they will be desiring to find out if there’s anything God would have them do that could restore their marriage. That doesn’t mean if she gets saved that she should just go back to her husband. He’s not safe. He’s not a safe man. I don’t think she has to go back to her husband at this point. Paul said if a woman leaves her husband, she should remain unmarried or be reconciled to him. I don’t think she has to be reconciled to him if he’s unchanged. If he’s not a safe person, if he beats her up, then I don’t think she ever has to go back to him until she’s quite sure that he won’t do that anymore. And if that never happens, then she should remain unmarried. Unless, of course, he hooks up with some other woman, in which case that changes things because he’s now an adulterer. Now, of course, he actually has the right to do that at this point because she’s been with other men, but But she should just walk away from the adultery and seek to be as faithful as possible to the marriage vows she made until such a time as she has clear liberty from those vows, which would only be. I believe, if her husband commits adultery. Now, some people see it differently. They would say his very commission of this kind of abuse is proof that he doesn’t want to be a husband. He just wants her to be his punching bag, not his wife. In which case, it might fall under 1 Corinthians 7, verses 12 through 15, where an unbelieving husband is not content to dwell with his wife. He might be content to stay with her so he can keep beating her up. But that’s not dwelling with a wife. That’s not being a husband. And so, I mean, some would understand that he’s an unbeliever who has essentially not been content to be a husband to her. And if she came to Christ, then she is a woman whose husband died. is an unbeliever who’s not content. That’s why, I mean, these are the principles. The details have to be sorted out with people who are actually in her life and know her situation better and her husband’s. And that’s something a radio host, you know, a thousand miles away, who’s heard, you know, a 30-second rendition of their marriage. cannot talk about with authority. I can only tell you what the scripture says. Okay. Patience from Scotland. Hi, Patience. Welcome to The Narrow Path. Thanks for calling.
SPEAKER 01 :
Hi, Steve. Good to talk to you again. I just wanted some advice on a personal issue that I’m having with my family right now. I have a sister who is dating a married man And I recently found out that she’s pregnant for him. Now, I’ve spoken to my sister, and I’ve explained to her on a Christian level that what she’s doing is wrong and that it’s a sin before God. Now, they are planning a gender review party for her, and they wanted me and my children to take part in it. Now, I’ve excused myself from this. And I wanted your guidance on is it right for us to take part in this or it’s a good decision that I’ve made to just stay away from everything that they’re planning at the moment.
SPEAKER 09 :
I think, yes, I think that you are your children young or are they adults or what are they? They’re very young. Okay. Yeah, definitely your children and you have every right not to go to this celebration of this immorality. Obviously, when the baby is born and you now have a new nephew or niece or whatever, there’s no reason to excommunicate the child from your life or from your children’s lives. But when you go to a party of some kind to celebrate something, you’re basically giving your congratulations and endorsements, things like that. It’s like if you go to a wedding and that you know one or both parties are not legitimately free to marry, and therefore it’s a sinful marriage, you don’t want to go that way. You don’t want to celebrate that. But after they’re married, it doesn’t mean you have to turn your nose up to them and never have any contact with them. You just recognize, unless they repent of their sin, they’re probably not Christians at all. I mean, because Christians don’t want to do that kind of thing, don’t want to commit adultery. They may be tempted to, but they don’t want to because they want to follow Jesus. And every Christian knows that it’s not okay to get pregnant by somebody else when he’s a married man. So, you know, she is rejecting Christ at this point because she cannot imagine for a moment that it’s okay to sleep with a married man and have his baby. So she’s just basically putting that out of her mind. She’s trying to dull her conscience. She doesn’t want to think about it, doesn’t want to feel bad about it. And she wants you to celebrate with her. I wouldn’t celebrate with her. And I wouldn’t let your children do so either. But, you know, once she has a baby, you’re not going to punish the baby for that. And you don’t even punish her. You just don’t think of her as a Christian until she repents. Right.
SPEAKER 01 :
Thank you so much, Steve.
SPEAKER 09 :
I appreciate it. Sorry about this. God bless you. God bless. Okay. Bye-bye. You’ve been listening to the Narrow Path Radio Broadcast. My name is Steve Gregg, and we’re live Monday through Friday… to take your calls, answer questions, or at least address them and discuss them with you. We are listener-supported. If you’d like to help us stay on the air, you can write to The Narrow Path, PO Box 1730, Temecula, California, 92593. Or go to our website, thenarrowpath.com. God bless.
