In a profound discourse, Steve Gregg engages with listeners on a range of theological debates. From the origins of moral structure and the dynamics of speaking in tongues to the practical implications of Romans 13’s advice on governance, this episode tackles important questions about Christian life and governance. As we hear from listeners grappling with their journey from dispensational views to open figurative interpretations, Steve’s guidance provides clarity and invokes deep reflection among believers.
SPEAKER 1 :
Thank you.
SPEAKER 03 :
Good afternoon and welcome to the Narrow Path radio broadcast. My name is Steve Gregg and we’re live for an hour each weekday afternoon. Taking your calls if you have questions about the Bible or the Christian faith. We’ll be glad to talk to you, although our lines are full right now. I’ll give you the number and if you call in a little while, just randomly, you may find that a line has opened. It’s continually happening through the hour. The number to call is 844- That’s 844-484-5737. I’ve been announcing all week that this Saturday we have a couple of events in Southern California. One is in Temecula in the morning, Saturday morning. Men’s Bible study in Temecula only happens once a month. Feel free to join us if you’re in the area and a man. We’ll be glad to have you. Now, in the evening, same day, this Saturday night, in Buena Park, at a little church called the Way Fellowship, I’ll be giving an overview of the whole Bible in a single lecture. And so you may be interested in that. I have found many people describe it as helpful to be able to see the whole Bible in a glance and see what the big picture is. If you’d like to join us, that’s at 6 o’clock. this Saturday night in Borna Park. Those meetings can be found at our website, listed, the website’s thenarrowpath.com, and this would be under the tab that says announcements. Under that same tab, you’ll find the date of my upcoming lectures, I’m not lecturers, excuse me, my debates with Dr. Michael Brown on various subjects related to Israel. We’ll have three debates on one weekend in Dallas, Texas, and Friday, the November 7th, and Saturday, November 8th. There’s one debate Friday night and two debates on Saturday. We’ll be talking about replacement theology, Old Testament prophecy about Israel, and Romans 9 through 11. These are the three topics. And I’ll be taking the view I always take here on the air and in my lectures on the subjects. And Dr. Michael Brown will take the position that he always takes, which is, of course, the Christian Zionist position. He’s not a dispensationalist, he says, but his views about Israel are indistinguishable from those of dispensationalism. So it’ll be sort of the dispensational position, although he’s not… In all respects, a dispensationalist, he renounces his former dispensationalism. But there’s some of it that he’s retained that perhaps he doesn’t realize comes directly from there. But that debate is taking place in Dallas, Texas, at Mercy Culture Church on November 7th and 8th. Just want you to know that announcement is also found at our website. And I guess while I’ve got your attention, I might mention that next month I will also be speaking an 11-day itinerary in Oregon. So we’ve got a lot going on this weekend, this Saturday, men’s Bible study in Temecula in the morning, and the overview of the Bible in Boynton Park, California. All right, we’ll go to the phones now. Our lines are full. And we’ll talk to Logan in Ohio. Logan, welcome to The Narrow Path. Thanks for calling.
SPEAKER 05 :
Hey, thank you. Good afternoon. So I personally have always found the argument from evil to be very powerful as an initiation point, and I’ve seen a lot of people recently realizing that evil truly does exist, and that causes them to think that good does exist as well, and they don’t necessarily know where to look for that. So I thought of an argument to sort of bootstrap to that Bible and to persuade people to look for that good in the Bible and in the Christian faith. So if it’s okay, I would like to present a very short argument to you and get your thoughts on that.
SPEAKER 03 :
Okay, if it is very short, go ahead.
SPEAKER 05 :
Yes, so evidence the Bible is true. In Genesis chapters 1 through 4, God made male and female, and the enemy spurred division and murder. Today, evil is trying to destroy male and female and encourages the murder of anyone who resists that. It seems to be the same modus operandi. Is that the same enemy? Thank you. I’ll listen on the air.
SPEAKER 03 :
All right. Well, thank you also. Well, you know, it’s true. In Genesis chapter 2, God made male and female. And in Genesis chapter 4 was the first murder. The main thing about that argument is that, of course, the first murder was not related to the gender issue. And it was not related to the denial issue. gender such as our modern conflicts are it does seem like the people who are if the one demographic who are providing the most news stories about killing innocent people are people who do deny the two genders and so we can see in our time at least that this confusion has led to murder and while we can say that two genders are introduced in Genesis 2 and murder is introduced in Genesis 4, I don’t know that the one springs from the other in principle. So I don’t know if I would make the argument quite as you did, but I would say this, that obviously to rebel against God’s design concerning gender and concerning two sexes puts a person outside the realm of, well, I’m going to say sanity. And I don’t use that term this way as a hyperbole. I really just mean that anybody who doesn’t know what gender they are has reached a state of unawareness of reality that was pretty much unknown until, what, 20 years ago? I don’t know. I mean, there were always some people who had gender dysphoria, but they were like, but one person in a million or something like that, and that was considered to be a mental disorder by the psychiatric community. The normalization of people with that kind of confusion and then the multiplication of people like that certainly is simply the multiplication of a condition that used to be recognized as a form of mental illness, and it is no more sane today than it was back when it was labeled that way. The fact that many people have decided they want to take that approach doesn’t make it a less aberrant way of thinking. And when people have dislodged themselves from reality to that degree, well, of course, they don’t have any moral standards to attach themselves to. I’m not saying that people who are of this confusion have no moral standards. I’m sure they have their own ideas of moral standards. The man who killed Charlie Kirk thought that Charlie Kirk was evil. And so, therefore, this man had his own moral standards. But obviously his moral standards were unhinged. They were not attached to any basis, any foundation. And that’s what happens when people no longer look to God and his design and his decrees and his commands as a source of you know, reality and especially moral reality, then, of course, they’re unhinged. And it’s not like they don’t have any sense of reality. Some don’t. There are people who are sociopaths who don’t care about right and wrong, don’t even have concepts of right and wrong. But when a person is doing these kinds of things because they’re saying, I’m doing this to eradicate evil from the world. then that’s not exactly what a sociopath does, but it’s what a person does who has totally lost any foundation for their knowledge of good and evil. And once we have a society where there’s a significant number of people like that and where that confusion is encouraged, let’s just say in the educational institutions, well, then we’ve got a very unsafe society. I appreciate you sharing that. All right, let’s talk to Mel from Huntington Beach, California. Mel, welcome to The Narrow Path. Thanks for calling.
SPEAKER 09 :
Yes, hello. Steve, thank you for taking my call. I have a question about the distinctive Pentecostal take on the speaking in tongues and baptism of the Holy Spirit. So what I’ve heard is that speaking in tongues is the initial evidence of the baptism of the Holy Spirit, and I just wanted to hear what your take on that. And I guess the follow-up question would be, is it possible for a Christian to be filled with the Holy Spirit without experiencing, you know, that gift of chance?
SPEAKER 03 :
All right.
SPEAKER 09 :
Okay.
SPEAKER 03 :
Okay, thank you for the question. Right. Well, you’re correct in saying that the doctrine of initial evidence, namely that the speaking in tongues is the initial evidence of baptism of the Holy Spirit, that is a distinctive of Pentecostals. Now, there are people who are not Pentecostals who still believe in the gifts of the Spirit. That technically would be referred to as charismatics. The word charismatic comes from the Greek word charismata, which means gifts. It’s the word in the Greek for the gifts of the Holy Spirit. So people who are charismatics believe in the gifts of the Holy Spirit. for today, whereas another group of people called cessationists, cessation means to cease. They believe the gifts have ceased, and therefore they don’t believe the gifts of the Spirit are for today. So the church kind of divides into two broad categories. Those who believe the gifts have ceased, and the correct name for those people are cessationists, and those who believe the gifts of the Spirit still are real and present with the church until Jesus comes back, And that would be specifically a charismatic view. Now, the Pentecostals, of course, are in the charismatic camp, but they have their own distinctives. They go further than other charismatics. Charismatics simply believe in the gifts of the Spirit for today, but Pentecostals believe, as you pointed out, that one particular gift, tongues, is necessary in order to prove the existence of the experience of being baptized in the Spirit. So they believe that If you have been baptized in the Holy Spirit, it will be shown. The initial evidence of that is speaking in tongues. And, of course, what that means then, on their view, is that if you don’t speak with tongues, you have not been baptized in the Holy Spirit. Now, different Pentecostals take that more or less seriously. I mean, there are mild Pentecostals. I would consider, for example, four square assemblies of God to be examples of mild Pentecostalism. where they would not say that you’re unsaved if you don’t speak with tongues. They would say you’re not baptized in the Holy Spirit, but they believe you can be saved even if you’re not baptized in the Spirit. But then there’s what I’d consider to be more, what should I say, narrow-minded Pentecostals. United Pentecostals, for example, would believe that if you’re not baptized in the Spirit… then you’re not saved. And therefore, tongues is an evidence not only of being baptized in the Spirit, but also being saved. So there’s a wide variety here of views. I personally believe that all the gifts in the Spirit have been promised to the church until Jesus comes back. I don’t believe that all of them are equally, what should I say, equally dispersed. For example, I believe a lot more people probably have the gift of helps or the gift of giving than there are who have the gift of teaching, for example, or the gift of prophecy, maybe. Although Paul said you may all prophesy, but most of them don’t. Speaking in tongues, I don’t see speaking in tongues as a gift that is mandatory or that everyone who gets baptized in the Spirit necessarily speaks in tongues. You know, you ask, is it possible for someone to be baptized in the Spirit and not speak in tongues? As far as I know, the answer is yes. I have known people who got baptized in the Spirit and then later spoke in tongues. That was my experience. I got baptized in the Spirit on one occasion, and a few months later I spoke in tongues. But I was baptized in the Spirit, to be sure, prior to speaking in tongues, and for some months. So I obviously do believe you can be baptized in the Spirit without speaking in tongues. Now, my reason for that is that the Bible nowhere indicates that speaking in tongues is the initial evidence of baptism in the Spirit. Being baptized in the Spirit is spoken of by, first of all, by John the Baptist without any reference to speaking in tongues. Then Jesus picked up that phrase from John the Baptist in Acts 1-5. And he doesn’t mention speaking in tongues. He says, you know, he said, John baptized with water, but you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit not many days from now. He didn’t mention speaking in tongues. So three verses later in Acts 1.8, he did say, you will receive power when the Holy Spirit comes upon you and you’ll be my witnesses. So that’s obviously the same thing as he was talking about three verses earlier. When you’re baptized in the Holy Spirit, you receive power. The Holy Spirit comes upon you. And, of course, this happened to the apostles in Acts 2-4. And we’re told that they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and they spoke with tongues. So they did speak with tongues when they were baptized or filled with or the Spirit came upon them. But there’s nothing there that says that everybody who gets baptized in the Spirit will necessarily do so. And there’s not really that many details in the Book of Acts telling how common speaking in tongues was or was not when people got baptized in the Spirit. I think there’s indicators in the Book of Acts that it was commonplace. When people got saved, they also had hands laid upon them. When they were water baptized, they had hands laid upon them and they were filled with the Spirit. That was the norm. And so I suspect that almost everybody in those days was baptized in the Spirit. Now, how many of them spoke in tongues, we do not know. We just aren’t given any information about that. But I would say without being given that kind of information, we certainly have no authority to say that people always spoke in tongues when they’re filled with the Spirit, which makes it impossible to teach a doctrine like that because the Bible doesn’t teach it. So I have no problem believing there are people who are baptized in the Spirit And they don’t speak in tongues. But it would be manifest in other gifts, not all of which are instantly recognizable as speaking in tongues. If someone speaks in tongues, it’s kind of noticeable. But, you know, someone has the gift of helps or the gift of showing mercy or the gift of giving or the gift of leadership or whatever. That might take some time in manifesting itself. And so, yeah, I’m not a Pentecostal in that sense. I don’t believe in that doctrine of initial evidence. Okay, Alan in Grass Valley, California. Welcome to the Narrow Path. Thanks for calling.
SPEAKER 04 :
Good afternoon, Steve. Hi. In Acts 13, I’m sorry, in Romans 13, Paul tells us we’re to obey our governors and leaders. And he even gives a reason why. He says it’s because they’re appointed by God.
SPEAKER 02 :
Yep.
SPEAKER 04 :
So I came across Hosea 8.4, and this is God speaking of Israel, and he says, They made kings, but not through me. They set up princes, but I knew it not. So it seems to me that these leaders that are talked about in Hosea 8.4 don’t really have the authority that God puts in place when he puts a ruler in place. In our country, we elect our leaders. We vote for them. So I’m confused. Are we like Hosea 8-4, putting people in place but not through God? Or is God putting these leaders in place? And how can we tell?
SPEAKER 03 :
Well, we might ask, how did Nero get put in place? The reason I ask is Nero was the emperor when Paul wrote Romans chapter 13. And Nero is a really bad guy. Now, did God put him in place? If so, how was he put in place? Was he elected? You know, I mean, here’s the thing. The Bible doesn’t say how leaders are to be put in place. It just says if you’ve got leaders, submit to them, because they’re in a position where they have an appointment from God. Now, it doesn’t say that God put them in their position, as Hosea 8 tells you. You can put rulers in place, and God didn’t do it, and he wasn’t even behind it. But once they’re in place, they have an assignment. It’s like, you know, a father has a requirement that he bring up his children in the nurture and admonition of the Lord. And, you know, so if a married couple are trying to have babies and they have a baby and so forth, then the man is a father and he’s got this assignment. But what if the man has a baby out of wedlock? Would it not still be his assignment to bring that child up in the nurture and admonition of the Lord? I mean, in other words, what if a baby is born in a situation that’s not ideal and where it would be questionable whether God ordained that baby to be born under those circumstances? Well, we don’t have to wonder that. Once the baby is there, the man has a responsibility. And that’s what I think about rulers. It’s like it doesn’t really matter how the rulers came to power. While they are there, they have a responsibility. Now, Paul tells us what that responsibility is. And insofar as they take their responsibilities seriously and carry it out, they are acting within God’s authorization. Here’s what it says in verse 4, Romans 13, 4. It says of the ruler, he is God’s minister or servant to you for good. But if you do evil, be afraid, for he does not bear the sword in vain, for he is God’s servant and avenger to execute wrath on him who practices evil. Now, what he’s saying is that God authorizes those in government to punish criminals. That’s what the government is for, to protect the innocent. and to exact justice on those who are criminals. Peter says the same thing in 1 Peter 2, verses 13 and 14. 1 Peter 2, verses 13 and 14, he says, Therefore submit yourselves to every ordinance of man for the Lord’s sake, whether to the king as supreme, once again this was Nero, or to governors, as to those who are sent by him for the punishment of evildoers, and for the praise of those who do good. So here’s what rulers are for. This is what God has ordained, is that rulers are authorized by God to punish criminals and to protect the lives of the innocent and to encourage righteous behavior. Now, not only, I mean, godly rulers aren’t the only ones who do that. There are some pagan rulers who punish criminals and who are pleased to have citizens behave well. But I think many people misunderstand the meaning of Paul’s statement in Romans 13, verse 1, where he says, Let every soul be subject to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except from God. And the authorities that exist are appointed by God. Now, what’s that mean? There is no authority except from God means if God hasn’t authorized somebody, they have no authority. That’s what Jesus said to Pilate. You would have no power over me if it wasn’t given to you from above. That is, if a person is in power and they’re claiming to have authority, they don’t have authority unless they are talking about the authority that’s given to them from God. Well, what’s that? Well, he authorized them to punish criminals and to praise those who do well. Okay? So anyone in a position of power, God has an assignment he’s given them. Now, they don’t always carry it out. Sometimes they rebel against it. Sometimes they do the opposite, in which case… They have to answer to God for that. We don’t have to obey authorities that are not acting within the authority God gave them. Because when God authorizes somebody, let’s say a father over his children or, you know, a ruler over the nation, he gives them a limited sphere of authority. He doesn’t give them all authority. Nobody is given absolute authority except Jesus. Jesus had all authority and heaven and earth has been given to me. So there’s nobody else who has any authority except what he allows. And when he authorizes somebody, for example, a father of his children, a father has authority over his children, but he doesn’t have authority over his neighbor’s children. And he doesn’t have the authority to, for example, kill his children or abuse, sexually abuse his children. God hasn’t authorized fathers to do that. So when they do that, they are not acting within their authority. Because God doesn’t authorize anyone to do those things, and therefore they have no authority except what is of God. That is, the only authority someone has is the authority God gives them. That’s what Paul says there. And he says the authorities are appointed by God, which means they answer to God. God is in authority over them. When you get appointed to something, you’re appointed by somebody who’s above you and to whom you answer. So Paul’s not saying… Okay, anyone who’s got any kind of authority, just submit to them like they’re God because God appointed them to be absolute authorities. No, he doesn’t say that. And it’s not true. What is true is that those who are in positions of authority have no actual authority except what God has authorized them to do, which is a limited sphere, which has told us what it is. They are God’s servants to exercise vengeance on the wicked, that is, on criminals. So Paul is not saying… Every person in authority, God directly put him there because that would, in fact, contradict Hosea 8.4 and perhaps many situations in life where somebody took authority by wrongfully killing the person before them, a military coup. That’s not something God authorizes, at least in most cases I wouldn’t think so. But when that happens, now somebody is in an office of authority. but they have no authority in that office except to do what God authorizes them to do. They have no authority except what God has given. In other words, people in authority often try to assume to themselves absolute authority, but they don’t have any authority except what God gave them, and he has limited their authority to one thing. Now, when they’re doing that one thing, that is enforcing justice, They are acting as God’s servants and God’s agents. And we have to submit to that authority because that’s God’s authority. He’s authorized them to do that. When they’re acting outside of that authority, they’re doing things that God never authorized them to do. They’re just assuming authority to themselves that they don’t possess. And we don’t have to obey them when they’re doing things they have no authority to do. Just like my neighbor’s children don’t have to obey me. Why? To my children, I’m their dad, but to the neighbor’s children, I’m just another guy. And if I say, well, I think you should go inside and put on a coat, you kids, and they’re not my kids, they don’t have to do that. My kids would have to if I told them to, but the neighbor’s kids don’t. Why? Because they’re not inside my sphere of authority.
SPEAKER 04 :
I really appreciate the clarity of your thought. It’s just really clear now.
SPEAKER 03 :
Oh, good. I’m glad. Well, thank you, brother. I appreciate your call. God bless you. All right. We have a hard break coming up here right now. We’ll be back in about a minute or so. We need to tell you that The Narrow Path is a listener-supported ministry. If you would like to help us pay the radio bills, that’s why we stay on the air. You know what it costs? I forget what it costs now. I mean, I usually say $140,000 a month. That’s a little outdated. I think we may pay a little more than that now, but it’s, you know, Over a million dollars a year we pay to radio stations, and we have no products for sale, no sponsors, nothing. We don’t sell anything. We just let our audience know. You want to help us stay on the air? We will stay on the air if you provide. I should say if God provides because that’s how we see it. But he may provide for you. You can contact us if you want to through the narrow path. And this is the address, P.O. Box 1730, Temecula, California, 92593. or at the website, thenarrowpath.com. I’ll be back in 30 seconds, so stay tuned. We have another half hour.
SPEAKER 01 :
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SPEAKER 03 :
Welcome back to the Narrow Path radio broadcast. My name is Steve Gregg, and we’re live for an hour. Well, another half hour. It’s true. We’re live for an hour a day, but it’s a half hour now because we’ve got half of it behind us. So we have 30 minutes ahead of us to take your calls. Right now our lines are full, but if you want to try to call in a little bit, there might be an opening for you at this number, 844-484-5737. And we’ll go to the phones now and speak with Matthew from Rancho Cucamonga, California. Hi, Matthew. Welcome.
SPEAKER 07 :
Hi, Steve. Good to talk to you again. I’ve been studying while listening to you really in Revelation chapter 11 on the two witnesses and receiving your point of view on that and I wasn’t quite getting it as far as how the church could be the two witnesses until the killing of Charlie Kirk and I’m just curious what your thoughts might be on that as far as maybe throughout all of the church history, people have been martyred, Christians have been martyred, and then the church tends to rise up a little bit, like we’re seeing with Charlie Kirk, that there’s a revival kind of of sorts, a resurrection of sorts, with his death. Is there anything in that that you could see?
SPEAKER 03 :
Well, I could see that as a very valid way of looking at it. I mean, throughout history, there have been Christian martyrs, of course. And when they die, as it says in Revelation 11, all the nations, all the pagans, they celebrate and send gifts to each other. And they’re so glad because they were tormented by these witnesses. And they’re glad to have them gone. And then, of course, within three days, these witnesses stand to their feet and to the terror of all the people who were rejoicing before. Now, we can see a microcosm of that phenomenon whenever an effective Christian witness is taken out. Obviously, Charlie Kirk is in the news right now, and I believe his witness was, for the most part, Very Christian. I mean, I had some theological differences with him, as I do with almost everybody, but I believe he was a witness for Christ. I believe what he argued for was largely the truth, and it was unpopular truth, and it made unbelievers uncomfortable. And so when he got taken up, there were some unbelievers who were very uncomfortable by his witness. who celebrated that, which is very evil. But I think they’re celebrating prematurely because, again, the blood of martyrs is seed, and very typically when effective witnesses are cut down, God raises up a continuing witness in the church. So I think that’s what you’re seeing there. The way I’m looking at it… And I’m not saying my way is right or yours. I mean, as I hope you know, I believe there’s several different views of Revelation which could be right. I simply, when I’m asked my view, I give my view. But I’m not wedded to my view in such a way that someone might not have a better way of seeing it. But my understanding is the witnesses represent the church throughout the whole age. And that near the end of that period, the beast comes out of the bottom of the spit and kills them. makes war with them first and then kills them, but their death is short. Three and a half days later, they rise up and are caught into heaven. I believe this probably is referring to the whole age of the church, and at the very end of it, Satan’s release, which spoke also in Revelation 20, seems to put an end to the church that is the most extensive, perhaps the most effective, persecution of the church may be reserved for this little season at the end. And it may seem, briefly, as if the church has been eliminated and the world will rejoice. But then the church rises up and is caught into heaven. That’s what the two witnesses stand to their feet after three and a half days of being dead and ascend into heaven. I personally tend to see this as the resurrection and the rapture of the church at the end. You know, after a short period, it’s seemingly been eliminated. But that is my particular view. I mean, certainly if a person can make a case for alternatives, that’s fine with me. I don’t have any emotion attached to my view of revelation, unlike most people. Most people, you know, almost all their emotions change. are tied to their view of revelation. They almost think it’s a really important thing to understand correctly. I consider that understanding revelation correctly is not one of the more important things for the Christian life, though I’d rather understand it correctly than incorrectly, so that’s why I’ve made an effort to do so. Anyway, you make an interesting point. I’m certainly not going to say you’re wrong. It’s not exactly the way that I have explained it, but nobody is under any obligation to see it the way that I do. So, good on you.
SPEAKER 07 :
All right.
SPEAKER 03 :
All right, brother. I’m not saying you’re wrong. You could be right.
SPEAKER 07 :
Oh, I apologize. Yeah, so I wasn’t trying to make a point. I was trying to understand how, because I’m coming out of a literal dispensational view of it into more of a figurative, and so I was trying to kind of get an idea of how people how a person can, I guess, wrap my mind around it being figurative for the first time, really.
SPEAKER 03 :
Yeah, I mean, the hard thing when you’re coming out of dispensational view is to see figurative things at all, because dispensationalism insists that we’re supposed to take everything literally, although they don’t, by the way. In that very story, what kills the two witnesses is a beast coming out of a bottomless pit and a beast, which is elsewhere described as having seven heads and ten horns and the mouth of a lion and the feet of a bear and the body of a leopard and so forth. To my mind, it’s not a literal animal. And therefore, if it’s not a literal animal, it may not be coming out of a literal bottomless pit if there is such a thing. And I don’t believe the witnesses are literally two men. But see, the problem is that I think everyone, even dispensationalists who tell you that you’re supposed to take everything literally, they don’t think it’s an animal either. They think it’s a man. They think it’s a man called the Antichrist. So they’re not taking it literally. But they hide that from themselves. They feel like you have to take things literally. And so when they don’t do it, they just kind of block that out of their mind. I’m still taking it literally, although they’re not. So anyway, the question is what things are literal, what things are not. That’s the first question. And the second thing is the things that are not, how are they to be understood? You know, and that’s… That’s the big question that everyone wrestles with separately.
SPEAKER 07 :
Sure. Well, thank you. I appreciate it.
SPEAKER 03 :
All right. God bless you, man. Good talking to you.
SPEAKER 07 :
All right. Take care. Bye-bye.
SPEAKER 03 :
All right. Rob in Salem, New Hampshire. Welcome to The Narrow Path, Rob. How are you doing? Good.
SPEAKER 08 :
My question, I’m very new to this, and I’m not sure if I’m saved or not. I was I was baptized Catholic as a small child, but I’m like 100, almost 100% on board. My question to you is, if I thought that just everything was some sort of weird simulation, like if I could subscribe to that, but still be giving my life to God, you know, doing everything for him and having faith, would that counteract anything? Like, is it wrong to think that this might be a simulation?
SPEAKER 03 :
Well, to my mind, a thought like that would be on the same level as those who think, for example, that the Earth is flat or that there might be millions of universes in the multiverse who believe certain things that, first of all, no one can apparently prove, and secondly, they do not have immediate influence on the way we live our lives. Such thoughts, in every case, and many others like them, are simply distractions from the things that do matter. God’s not going to judge us for theories we had about the nature of reality. He’s going to judge us for our works. At least every verse in the Bible that speaks of the judgment says that. He’s going to judge us for our works. Now, obviously, the Bible says he wants us to believe in Christ. And if we do believe in Christ, our works will show that we do. But if we do believe in Christ, that doesn’t mean it predicts whether we think the earth is round or flat or whether there’s a multiverse or not or whether everything is a simulation. Actually, I think the idea that things are a simulation are a little further, you know, away from what the Bible teaches than some of these other things. But it doesn’t, you know, I would say this. If you’re of the opinion that we’re living in the matrix, and from that point of view, you think about God, then I’m afraid you’d probably be thinking that God is not real either. If the world isn’t real around us, then God isn’t either. That would, I think, prevent somebody from coming to faith. But if you actually believe… there’s a God who created all things and he sent his son to redeem us from our sins and he raised him from the dead and made him king and universal lord of lords and king of kings and you’re surrendered to him and want to do his will, then I don’t know how it would make a difference if you thought you were doing his will within the context of a simulation or real life. I mean, I’m not sure how you could hold those Christian beliefs along with the idea that it’s a simulation because… If I understand correctly, I have to say I’ve seen The Matrix more than once. I never could understand what’s going on there. So I don’t fully understand the whole concept. But if I believed that, I don’t know if I would believe anything is real, which would prevent me from having any solid beliefs in God or Christ, I think. So it would seem like a person would want to become disabused of that view as much as possible. And by the way, let me say this. If this is all a simulation, how in the world would we discover that it is or is not? I mean, you know, it’s like the multiverse thing. Oh, there could be millions of universes outside our universe. Well, there could be, but we have no way of knowing yes or no, so might as well put it out of our mind. Because if there are or if there are not, it has absolutely no bearing on our lives. And that’s the kind of thing that I think people become distracted from God by these kinds of theories. But if, you know, you’re not sure you’re a Christian yet and you kind of have this conviction that we’re living in a simulation, if with all of that you come to the point where you say, I want to follow Jesus Christ because I believe God, our creator, has appointed him to be the ruler of all things, including me, and I’m going to not rebel against that. I’m going to submit to that. I’m going to follow him. Then I don’t know how that would keep you from being a Christian. I just don’t know how you could take those views seriously while holding that other world view. But if you can, you know, I don’t think you’re going to go to hell for holding that view. I think people are lost. are not lost because they have some abstract view like that. I think they’re lost because they neglect to surrender to Christ, and that’s the main thing.
SPEAKER 08 :
Yes, it’s basically like, it’s more or less like having faith with doubt based off of a description. I believe everything has happened in the Bible the way it’s happened. I’m a little… You know, listening to your show, I found out about preterism and partial preterism. That kind of scares me slightly. Like, well, what happens if it all happens? I don’t think full preterism is my thing. But I see what you’re saying, and I really appreciate your intake, sir.
SPEAKER 03 :
Well, Rob, I appreciate you listening and thinking hard about these things. You know, I just believe if you keep seeking the truth and praying about it, I mean, you say you’ve got faith and doubt. You remember there was a man who said to Jesus, Lord, I believe, but help my unbelief. I mean, that’s probably a good position for someone who’s not quite convinced to take. You know, well, I kind of believe, but I’ve got some unbelief. I need God to help me get over it. You know, pray that he will. Awesome, Steve. Thank you. The berries. Okay, Rob. God bless you. Bye now. God bless you. Bye. Okay, we’ll talk next to Mike in Kent, Washington. Hi, Mike. Welcome.
SPEAKER 06 :
Hi, Steve. I was the last caller yesterday, and I’m the paramedic that’s an ER doc. I was talking about demons and how they get, you know, you remember that?
SPEAKER 03 :
I do remember having a discussion about, was it about, were you the one who had someone who contacted your friend and passed on a message? No. No, that’s a different call.
SPEAKER 06 :
What happens, I have so much stuff in my subconscious, and we… Oh, yeah.
SPEAKER 03 :
Oh, yeah, you wake up with really bad thoughts. You wake up with really bad thoughts.
SPEAKER 06 :
What you said was great, you know, that I rebuke the demons, and I come from a basic Bible church. I told you that yesterday, so… you know, harding Christian, that kind of thing, and so, and I’ve been a Christian for 50 years, but in the last few years, I don’t remember my dreams, Steve, but I’m wondering, how does Satan and his demons, they put thoughts that God would never put in there, disturbing thoughts, things like that, and I rebuke them, and they’re not mine, I don’t claim them, because like you said yesterday, but How does, I’ve heard it that Satan can’t read our minds. And you said, well, you know, if you know somebody really well enough, like your wife or your husband, then that’s the case. But I’m just curious. I don’t, I don’t, I read scriptures. I do all I’m supposed to, but yet I get these bad thoughts.
SPEAKER 10 :
Yeah.
SPEAKER 06 :
And they go away as the day goes on. And as I read scripture and as I take my thoughts captive, you know, Well, it sounds like what you’re doing is working.
SPEAKER 03 :
It sounds like what you’re doing is working. I imagine you’re calling again because it’s just such an uncomfortable situation to have to wrestle with things like that all the time. I mean, it sounds like you’re getting victory over it in the course of the day, so you must be doing the right thing. But obviously you’d like to wake up in the morning without this struggle. And wouldn’t we all like to have no struggles? I mean, I don’t know why. some people have certain struggles and some do not i knew a woman who was a christian for decades and she had horrible dreams every night and you know she’d pray about it she’d do she’d read the bible and and she still had the bad dreams uh now i i’ve had bad dreams before not very often i don’t really remember my dreams much but they’re not too terribly bad but um You know, some people don’t have that problem. Some do, but others have other problems. Some have, you know, thoughts and voices in their head all day long, and you fortunately get over it. But if you say, how does the devil put those things in there? I don’t really know how the devil functions. I don’t know how spirits interact with other spirits, like the demonic spirits interact with our spirits. That’s in a realm that we don’t have any, you know, we don’t have any scientific descriptions of. But I will say this, that the devil sometimes can get things into our head by things we allow to be put in there. For example, I mean, if somebody is watching some kind of movies or television or YouTube videos or reading stuff that, you know, puts bad stuff in your head, I could see how, I mean, we could see the devil is using that to put bad thoughts in your head. If the thoughts you’re having are totally unlike anything that you’re voluntarily putting in your head, then I think you can rest assured that they’re not yours. Like you said, they’re not yours. You wouldn’t put that in your head. If you are doing things that put those in your head, then I would suggest cutting those off, and maybe it wouldn’t happen after a while. But I think you would have thought of that on your own without me telling you that, of course. I mean, obviously, if you’re watching pornography and then you have pornographic thoughts in your head, When, you know, in the night, I could say it wouldn’t be a mystery, you know, or if you’re watching horribly violent movies and gory and bloody and nasty, and then you have these kinds of thoughts in your head. I mean, there’d be no mystery here. And I think you would have thought of that already. So I’m assuming that’s not what’s going on. All I can say is that I don’t know how they get in there, but it looks like you’re doing the right thing to get them out. And as far as if you’re wondering, why am I having these issues and everybody else doesn’t? Now that’s a hard call. A lot of times it’s just what God allows each of us. We each have different issues. The ones you have are tormenting, but they might be different than other people’s issues that are tormenting. We live in a battlefield here in this world. There’s demonic powers, as you know, and they’re doing their best to sow confusion and doubt and and fear and anger and things like that. And so we’ll find a lot of things in our lives that are temptations in that way. But I can’t answer you why that’s happening. It’s like I’ve known people who have night terrors. I don’t know why they do. You know, I would say, you know, I would just say your own story is your own. And I would say if you recognize it as the devil, You could just say, oh, okay, it’s only you, and ignore him. I think the devil likes to use these things to get you thinking about it all the time. Like, why is this happening? How can I get rid of this? Well, one way you can get rid of it, I would think, is simply by not taking them seriously and saying, well, I didn’t ask for these. These are not mine. This is the devil. Devil, you know, I’m not going to give you the pleasure of worrying about this. I’m just going to I’m going to start replacing those thoughts with thoughts that are edifying and true. And, you know, I can’t tell you what else to do. I mean, some people say, well, rebuke the devil and the demons will flee. I heard a preacher say that once. The Bible says rebuke the devil and he’ll flee from you. Actually, it doesn’t. It says resist the devil and he’ll flee from you. And rebuking simply means speaking a word. Resisting may mean putting up a fight for a while. You resist an enemy that’s trying to break into your home or break into your castle, that might involve some hand-to-hand combat. That might involve a protracted resistance before you defeat him. But the Bible does say, resist the devil and he will flee from you. It just doesn’t say he’ll do it as soon as you start. You resist him as long as you need to until he flees. But it’s not that easy of just saying, I rebuke you, devil. But when you do rebuke those thoughts verbally… you are again disowning them. That’s basically the thing. You’re basically reminding yourself and God and the devil that these are not thoughts that you welcome. And hopefully they will eventually stop coming. But I do see it as a spiritual attack. Unless, of course, this is something you’re feeding into your head during the day. I don’t know. But I can’t analyze it any more than that. I wish I could, and I can’t tell you exactly what’s going to work more than what you’re doing. It looks like you’re doing the right thing. Okay, let’s see. We don’t have much time left, but let’s talk to Tom from Denton, Texas. Tom, welcome.
SPEAKER 02 :
Good afternoon, Steve. I have become a fan of yours, a lover of what you teach, and I really appreciate your teaching. I belong to a relatively dispensational, relatively Calvinistic church, and I am not that way. I’m more of your way of thinking, and the more I learn about both of those subjects, the more I think they’re wrong. and I’m wondering what I need to do or what can I do within my church. The people I love, the church, the teaching is wonderful, but it’s a lot more Calvinistic and dispensational than I would like to see. What shall I do?
SPEAKER 03 :
Have you been there long? 21 years. Okay, so I’m assuming you’ve developed some good relationships there and some credibility.
SPEAKER 02 :
Yes, sir.
SPEAKER 03 :
I assume that the leaders know you pretty well and respect you.
SPEAKER 02 :
I’d say that’s a very good… They know that I’m a malcontent.
SPEAKER 03 :
Yeah? Okay. So maybe they know you well, and instead of respecting you, are afraid of you.
SPEAKER 02 :
No, no. No? All right. I think we get along well, and my goal is to kind of be like Charlie Kirk in that he’s bold and not afraid to affront these bad teachings, I guess. Well, you know, I would…
SPEAKER 03 :
I would talk to the leaders of the church there and ask them a simple question. Since Calvinism never existed before Augustine, so the first 300 years, no Christians held to Calvinistic views. And it was a novel view that came in with Augustine in the 4th century, or almost the 5th century. And since dispensationalism was not taught until the 19th century, and other things were taught, it seems clear that both views, while they could be true, could possibly be not true as well. And I would ask them, if either of those views were not true, would they wish to know that? Because that’s really the question. Are they interested in truth, or are they interested in maintaining the status quo? And it might seem a strange question to ask, but many men who are otherwise good, honest people, they’re terrified about changing the status quo when it comes to the theology of their denomination or of their congregation, especially if they’ve been promoting a particular theology. Let’s face it, these pastors usually are paid people, paid by the church to teach, and if they were to get up and say, hey, you know, I may have been teaching something wrong, I think they fear that people would say, oh, well, then what are we paying you for? You’re not even reliable. And I think they would fear to do that. Now, I don’t know about your pastors, maybe not, but there are, I know of pastors who’ve told me that’s what they, that is their fear. And so I don’t know if it’s true of this church, but That’s why I would want to ask them, if these views are not true, would you want to know that or would you want to maintain the status quo? I’m not saying you’re wrong. I’m just saying I just wonder where you’re at because I’m not going to waste time trying to discuss it with you if you don’t want to know if it’s true or not. And if they said, no, I would really want to know the truth. Well, then I would suggest then that you could give them a book, or you could give them my lectures on these subjects, or you could discuss with them yourself, if you’ve mastered the material, that you can bring these points up to them and ask them to look at these scriptures without insisting that they have to change. In other words, if they have the impression that you’re trying to force them to change their views, their natural reaction might be to get their back up and say, well, hey, no, I’m not going to change. You’re the one who needs to change. But if you’ve asked them, would you want to change your view about this if it was mistaken, if the truth lay elsewhere, if they say, well, yes, then they can’t object to saying, okay, well, here’s a scripture that I’d like you to consider. And I wouldn’t put them on the spot saying, explain this to me. I’d just say, this is something for you to consider. If they are going to change at all, it’ll be gradually in all likelihood. And so, you know, what you can do is just gradually, you know, put stuff in their heads to think about. And without insisting that they have to come around to your way of looking at it. If they’re not under that kind of pressure and not feeling threatened or confronted, They might have an open mind to realize, oh, wait, this is a scripture I don’t know what to do with. At least that’s how I changed my mind from dispensationalism because, you know, there were certain scriptures I just realized, well, I’m not really sure how this fits my view. And eventually there were enough of them to make me realize maybe I should change my view. I’m sorry I’m out of time. I wish I were not. I appreciate your call, brother, but the clock is unforgiving. You’ve been listening to The Narrow Path. We are listener supported. Our website is thenarrowpath.com. Thanks for joining us. Let’s talk again tomorrow. God bless.
