Join Steve Frubick on The Narrow Path Radio Broadcast as he navigates through complex questions about the Bible and Christian faith. In this episode, callers bring forth intriguing topics such as the kingdom of God being taken away and given to a new nation as explained in Matthew 21:43. Dive deep into discussions about the nature of this new nation and whether Israel has a future role in this divine kingdom.
SPEAKER 1 :
Thank you.
SPEAKER 02 :
Good afternoon and welcome to the Narrow Path Radio Broadcast. I’m Steve Frubick and we’re live for an hour each weekday afternoon. Taking your calls, hoping you’ll call in with your questions about the Bible or the Christian faith or else to call in perhaps to disagree with the host if you’re not a Christian and you want to express your disagreements with the Christian faith or with the Bible, or if you are a Christian and you simply have a different viewpoint from that of the host and would like to bring that up for conversation, you’re welcome to call this number, 844-484-5737. That’s 844-484-5737. And right now our lines are full, but if you get a busy signal, just call back. In a few minutes, lines are opening up throughout the hour. The number 844-484-5737. Our first caller today is Dwight in Denver, Colorado. Hi, Dwight. Welcome to The Narrow Path. Thanks for calling.
SPEAKER 07 :
You bet. Matthew 21, 43 says, Therefore I say to you, the kingdom of God will be taken away from you and given to a people producing the fruit of it. And my questions are, number one, when did that happen? Number two, what exactly was taken from them? And number three, will Israel ever get the kingdom again?
SPEAKER 02 :
Well, the kingdom of God, of course, did refer to Israel in the Old Testament. God told them if they were obedient to him, they would be his kingdom and a holy nation. So provisionally, upon their obedience, Israel was entrusted with the status of being God’s kingdom, which would mean that God was their king, they were his special people, he was specially committed to their well-being and their prosperity, as long as they were obedient to the covenant. And what the parable, I mean, Jesus’ words, of course, are the climax of a parable about a vineyard. and vineyard keepers who refused to give the owner his due. Typically in biblical times, most people were not landowners, but if they had a good back and could work hard, they might release land for a landowner and plant a vineyard, and then they would pay him his rent from the produce, and then they would keep the rest so that they would be able to make a living too. Now, in this story, The owner sends his messengers to the tenants who are supposed to be producing grapes on this vineyard. And says, okay, it’s vintage time, time to give the master his dew, his grapes, his fruit. And they don’t give it. Instead, they abuse the messengers. So he sends more messengers, and they abuse them too, sometimes kill them, sometimes throw them out of the vineyard. And finally, he says, last of all, which means there’s no more after this is going to come. Last of all, he sent his son. And they killed him, too. Now, that means that the vineyard owner did not get his fruit that he was seeking. Now, as far as the fruit that was being sought from Israel, the vine and the vineyard are both images of Israel in the Old Testament. Isaiah 5 had a parable very much like this, where God planted a vineyard and did not get the fruit he wanted. And he says in Isaiah 5, 7, the vineyard of the Lord is the house of Israel. and the men of Judah are his pleasant plant, his vine. So he says he looked for, now here’s the fruit God was looking for. He said he looked for justice, but instead there was oppression. He looked for righteousness, but instead there was simply a cry he heard of those being abused. Now, it’s clear that the imagery of God seeking fruit from a vineyard is seeking justice and righteousness from Israel. And, of course, he gave them every opportunity. He gave them his laws. He gave them their own land where they could kind of set things up according to a righteous way as opposed to the pagan nations around them. He gave them every advantage. But they didn’t. They didn’t become a just and righteous people. And so God sent his messengers, and those were the prophets in the Old Testament, who came and said, where’s your righteousness? Where’s your justice? You know, the master is looking for this fruit. And they abused the prophets, and that’s what it says in the parable. And then finally, he sent Jesus. So the parable goes through the history of Israel from its beginning to the time of Jesus. And he came also looking for the fruit. He came looking for righteousness and justice in Israel and didn’t find it. But they killed him. So the master has never gotten his fruit. He’s never gotten a society characterized by justice and righteousness, which is what he planted that vineyard in order to obtain for himself. And because they killed his son, Jesus said, therefore, I say to you, the kingdom of God will be taken from you. Verse 43, Matthew 21, 43. The kingdom of God will be taken from you. Now, Israel was the kingdom of God in the Old Testament. That privilege was taken from them. And he said, and that privilege will be given to a nation that bears the fruits of it. Now, what are the fruits of it? Well, the fruits of it, as we know, are justice and righteousness. He’s still looking for that. He hasn’t given up his quest for justice and righteousness. So that’s what’s being expected. Now, we know the vineyard is Israel because that’s taken directly from the Old Testament. The imagery is unmistakable. repetition of an Old Testament parable. And we know that the prophets always were seeking justice and righteousness from Israel, and they didn’t produce it. Instead, they abused them, and they killed Jesus, too, when he came demanding it. So we know, I mean, the parable is transparent in its meaning. But what does it mean that, you know, the kingdom is taken from them? Well, it means that for 1,400 years, from the time of Mount Sinai on, they had had the opportunity and privilege to be the only nation on the planet who had God as their ruler directly. And they abused it, and he didn’t get it. He should have had a just and righteous society. That’s the fruit he was seeking. Instead, they deprived him of that. So he’s taking that privilege away from them and giving it to somebody else who will. That is another society, another nation. Now, this would suggest that there will be no need for these rejected vineyard keepers ever to be rehired. No need to. The new nation that will produce the fruit is going to produce the fruit. God will not be lacking in it. He won’t have to hire them back because the new nation will produce it. Now, people who do think that there’s a future restoration of Israel, It’s somewhere mentioned in the Bible. I’m not sure where they find it. It certainly isn’t in the New Testament at all. And I don’t find it in the Old Testament either, although I know what verses they use. I don’t think it teaches that. But those who believe there will be a restoration of Israel and that they will produce the fruit again, they suggest that when Jesus said the kingdom is taken from you, he doesn’t mean from the nation of Israel, but specifically from the leaders of Israel. Because in verse 45, it says, when the chief priests and Pharisees heard his parables, they perceived that he was speaking of them. So they recognized themselves in these wicked tenants who killed the prophets and killed the Messiah, or at least plotted to. They hadn’t done it yet. but they saw themselves in it. And so some would say, well, see, he’s not going to replace Israel. He’s going to replace the leaders of Israel, the wicked leaders, and give that leadership to somebody else. Okay, fair enough. And who was that somebody else? Well, we know that Jesus said the apostles, the 12 apostles, were still on 12 thrones judging the 12 tribes of Israel. So many people will say, all that Jesus is saying is that the wicked rulers of Israel will be removed and will be replaced by the apostles, basically. Well, fair enough. But what is the society that the apostles oversee? Well, it’s the church. Jesus made the apostles the overseers of the church. Now, by the way, he didn’t say… I’m going to take the kingdom from you and give it to some new leaders. He said, I’m going to give it to a new nation. All right. So, in other words, it’s not like it’s going to be the same nation ruled by different people. It will be a nation that comes out from that nation because, of course, the Bible makes it plain. the nation of Israel, which did in fact fail, as this parable and all the prophets testify, it was from the faithful within that nation that the new nation was formed. And the faithful within that nation were the believing Jews, what we call the Jewish church in Jerusalem. And he established them as a new nation and gave the kingdom to them. Now, in Luke, Jesus said to the disciples, He says, Fear not, little flock. It is the Father’s good pleasure to give you the kingdom. I don’t have the verse reference at my fingertips here, but it’s in Luke in the teens somewhere. And I think it’s either chapter 12 or chapter 15. I forget. But he said, fear not, little flock. It’s the Father’s good pleasure to give you the kingdom. So it’s 1232. My wife looked it up. Yeah, so Luke 1232. Now, he said here he’s going to give the kingdom to someone else. And Jesus says to his disciples, you disciples of mine, the Father is going to give you the kingdom. So it is the disciples of Jesus, a group we call the body of Christ, the church that is now entrusted with the kingdom status, which is why in Revelation chapter 5, John sees a great multitude in heaven celebrating that God has, in fact, redeemed, here’s what he says in Revelation 5, Verses 9 and 10, they sang a new song saying, you were worthy to take the scroll and to open the seals, for you were slain and have redeemed us, or some manuscripts say them, to God by your blood out of every tribe and tongue and people and nation. Okay, so this is an international body of people that have been redeemed. And they say, and you’ve made us a kingdom of priests to our God. Okay, well, a kingdom of priests, that’s what… That’s what Israel was supposed to be in Exodus 19, 5 and 6. If they were obedient, they would be a kingdom of priests unto God. But in Revelation, a multitude that is described as being from every tribe and tongue and people and nation is said to be the kingdom of priests now. So the kingdom has been given to this multiracial body of people who are faithful to the Messiah. And that’s what it’s referring to.
SPEAKER 07 :
And is there a point in time when that transfer took place or was it a kind of a process?
SPEAKER 02 :
Well, I think it took place. Well, I mean, if we say a process, it may have taken a few days because, you know, Jesus died and In the upper room, he made the new covenant with his disciples. Now, it says in Hebrews 8.13 that where there’s a new covenant, it makes the old one obsolete. So when Jesus entered into a new covenant with the remnant of Israel, which were his disciples, the faithful of Israel, that was the end of the old covenant. And it was the old covenant at Mount Sinai where they were said that they would be a kingdom of priests. So that covenant is over. The new covenant was made in the upper room. Obviously, Jesus’ death, resurrection, ascension, pouring out of the spirit, all of which happened over the next seven weeks or six weeks. All those were a part of that transition. In fact, one might even argue that the destruction of Jerusalem in AD 70 was the final nail in the coffin of the nation of Israel and the final stage of that transition. But, yeah, the kingdom was given. It’s like it’s like Israel came out of Egypt and God gave them the promised land. But there was a 40 year transition there. from the time that he made his covenant with them at Mount Sinai to the time they actually became a nation in the promised land. And so also Christ made the new covenant with his disciples. Forty years later, they actually, you know, the whole transition was complete when the temple was destroyed.
SPEAKER 07 :
Right.
SPEAKER 02 :
Yeah.
SPEAKER 07 :
Wow. Thank you. I appreciate that.
SPEAKER 02 :
All right. Good talking to you, Dwight. Thanks for calling. Jim from Portland, Oregon is next. Jim, welcome.
SPEAKER 06 :
Well, thank you for taking my call, a long-time listener and summertime caller. Great. I have a question about, it’s a dispensational question. When I was raised in a church, a dispensational church with the rapture, the tribulations, the millennium, and so on,
SPEAKER 02 :
Let me just say this. Your voice is a little muddled. Are you using a speakerphone? Or maybe your phone is not right up next to your mouth. Okay, yeah. It’ll be clearer if you’re right up next to your mouth. Okay, got it. So you go to a dispensational church.
SPEAKER 06 :
Yeah, and I was raised with the typical stuff of rapture and tribulation and morning rain. So what I’m finding from And most of my friends were that way. But I’m finding some problems in the area. One area is the rapture, the dispossession of rapture, when it says, the dead will rise in Christ and not be preceded by the living, and they will forever be with the Lord. Okay. Would that mean like someone like Lazarus and all the Old Testament people, they would raise a resurrection to you?
SPEAKER 02 :
Well, I believe so. I mean, Lazarus, Jairus’s daughter, the son of the widow of the city of Nain, Tabitha in Acts chapter, what is it, nine or somewhere thereabouts. They they all had an opportunity to rise from the dead. within the lifetime of their contemporaries. That is, these were people who died in a very unusual phenomenon. Christ raised them from the dead. Of course, all those people, however many there may have been, who came out of their graves when Jesus rose from the dead, mentioned in Matthew 27, would be among those too. During Jesus’ life, death, and resurrection, and the apostolic age, a number of people were risen from the dead because they had died apparently prematurely. And they got to live out the rest of their lives. We have every reason to believe they died again and therefore that they are now in their graves. And therefore, when Jesus comes back and raises the dead, now Jesus said he’ll raise all the dead. In Matthew 5, 28, he says, do not marvel at this. The hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear his voice. and come forth, those who have done good to a resurrection of life, those who have done evil to a resurrection of condemnation. So all who are in the graves will come forth in a certain hour, at a certain moment, and until that moment, everybody is still in the grave. Unless, of course, there are other cases, you know, somewhere where people rise from the dead, you know, in a manner analogous to Jairus’ daughter or Lazarus. I mean, there are reports of people who have been raised from the dead in modern history, and I can’t check them out. I can’t vet them. But if there are such things, then they would be the same category. But the point is, people who have died and then come back to life a few moments or days later in the Bible and since are in a category by themselves, but they have died, again, since. And therefore, they are in their graves. And whoever’s in the grave will come out at the resurrection. So that’s the resurrection of the last day has not yet occurred because those people are still in their graves.
SPEAKER 06 :
When Mary was talking to Jesus about Lazarus being raised, if you will be raised, and Mary says, I know he’ll be raised on the last day. Yeah. So I think the last day is being overlooked by the distant faceless because on the last day, Yes, I mean, the pre-trib rapture cannot be true if what Jesus said is true, or Paul for that matter.
SPEAKER 02 :
You know, Paul said we must go through tribulation. So did Jesus. In John 16, 33, Jesus said, In this world you will have tribulation, but be of good cheer. I have overcome the world. He said that to his disciples. Paul said that also in 1 Thessalonians 3. He said, I told you, and you found out it’s true that you will have tribulation. So Christians are never promised any, you know, exemption from tribulation at all. Now, as far as the rapture is concerned, the rapture is placed by Paul, both in 1 Corinthians 15 and 1 Thessalonians 4, as being basically at the same time as the resurrection. The dead in Christ rise first, and then we who are alive and remain, which is the rapture, will be caught up to meet the Lord in the air. So they happen pretty much at the same time. And Jesus said everyone’s going to come out of the grave at the same time. Paul believed that too. In Acts 24, 15, he said he believed in the same resurrection doctrine the Jews did, that there will be a, that is one, resurrection of the dead, both of the just and the unjust. Now, the dispensationalists think there’s a resurrection of the just prior to the tribulation and a resurrection of the unjust at the end of the millennium, over a thousand years later. Paul didn’t know of any such thing neither did Peter none of the biblical writers knew of such a thing and so and Jesus didn’t so you know either the dispensationalists are right and Jesus is wrong and the apostles or else the dispensationalists are wrong and I believe they are wrong which is why it took so many centuries even millennia almost for the church to come up with an idea about a pre-tribulation rapture it just wasn’t in the Bible so someone had to make it up took a long time to do that apparently But anyway, yeah, I mean, Jesus said multiple times that the righteous are going to be raised on the last day. There’s four times in one chapter he said that in John 6, verse 39, verse 40, verse 44 and verse 54. All four times he said his people, those who eat his flesh and drink his blood, those who hear his call and come and, you know, are with him. He describes his people in various ways, but in four times he said he will raise them up on the last day. And unless someone can find some way to define the word last day in a way that doesn’t mean it’s the last day, well, then we’re stuck. We’re stuck with Jesus’ words, and we might as well. Why should we not want to be? Jesus’ words are precious words, so I’m glad to have his words on this so we don’t have to guess. It’ll be on the last day that he raises up. By the way, it’s also the same day that he judges the wicked, because he said in John 12, 48, that the wicked are the ones who reject his words will be judged by his words on the last day. Of course, the story of the sheep and the goats in Matthew 25, 31 through 46. Also, he talks about when he comes, he’s going to bring all the nations before him, divide between the sheep and the goats and send them off to their respective destinies. Then on that very day that he returns. So there’s simply nothing in the Bible to suggest that there’s a resurrection and rapture of the saints at one time. And then some other time there’s a resurrection and rapture of the wicked. It’s contrary to what the Bible plainly teaches. Thanks for your call, Jim. Mike in California, welcome to The Narrow Path. Thanks for calling.
SPEAKER 05 :
Good afternoon, Steve. I hope you’re having a good day.
SPEAKER 02 :
So far, so good.
SPEAKER 05 :
So far, so good. I hear you. So I recently had a pastor tell me that my wife and I have an adulterous marriage because neither of us had a biblical divorce. He says the only biblical divorce is for infidelity. So we asked him We asked him, what should we do? He said, well, we should be divorced. And then the question came up, if we’re divorced, can we still live together? And he said, oh, sure. Well, he said, yeah, it sounds okay. So I want to know your thoughts on that.
SPEAKER 02 :
Well, either he’s wrong that you should be divorced. Or he’s wrong that you can still live together. Because if your marriage is sinful, then you need to get out of it. If it’s not sinful, you can live together, you know. I mean, it’s strange that he would say things that sound so contrary to each other. Let me ask you just a few questions. Neither of you divorced your spouses because of infidelity, correct?
SPEAKER 05 :
True.
SPEAKER 02 :
both of you initiated the divorce and your spouses did not, your exes did not initiate them?
SPEAKER 05 :
On her, her ex initiated it, but he claimed her ex didn’t have a biblical marriage because his first marriage wasn’t ended with a biblical divorce.
SPEAKER 01 :
Uh-huh.
SPEAKER 05 :
Yeah. So he kind of ran circles around it.
SPEAKER 02 :
Okay. Well, okay.
SPEAKER 05 :
Go ahead.
SPEAKER 02 :
Well, If her marriage to her first husband was not biblical, then… No, that was actually her second husband. Oh, her second. You’re her third? Okay. Well, let me just say that it has a lot to do with what has happened since then. How long have you and your present wife been married?
SPEAKER 05 :
Eight years.
SPEAKER 02 :
Okay. The spouses you had before, have they remained celibate?
SPEAKER 05 :
No. Mine is married. Hers is not.
SPEAKER 02 :
Hers is not married, but has he remained pure, or is he the kind of guy who dates and stuff like that?
SPEAKER 05 :
I have no idea.
SPEAKER 02 :
She doesn’t know either?
SPEAKER 05 :
No.
SPEAKER 02 :
Okay. Well, I would say this, that your wife has remarried, you say? Your ex-wife has remarried?
SPEAKER 05 :
Yes.
SPEAKER 02 :
Okay, so I’m sorry, what did she say?
SPEAKER 05 :
She said I’d been married 25 years. Not that that matters.
SPEAKER 02 :
Oh, the ex had been married 25 years? Wow, that’s a long time. Okay, so I would say when your ex-wife married again, you became free from that marriage. If you divorced her for wrong reasons, that was not the right thing to do. but she essentially vindicated you by getting married again. If she had stayed faithful to you, I mean, if for 25 years, instead of being remarried, she had said, I’m going to wait for Mike to come back home. I’m going to be pure. I’m going to honor my vows that I made to him, and even if he doesn’t honor his, I’m going to be clean before God, and when he comes home, I’m going to take him back. Now, if that had been her position… then I’d say you’d be in a tight spot. I’d say that you did make vows to her, which you’ve broken, and if she’s upholding them, I think you’d be responsible to keep them. But she’s remarried, which means she’s released you from any obligations to come back to her. She had grounds for divorce, I presume, and therefore she took them, and you were single. So your new marriage, what, eight years ago, to my mind, You were free to remarry. Now, your present wife’s marriage, I’m not sure that I would hold it against her. She doesn’t know whether her ex-husband has been pure or not, correct? Right. But he divorced her, right? Right. So, I mean, if he divorced her, he’s the one who broke the covenant.
SPEAKER 09 :
Right.
SPEAKER 02 :
Now, I’ll tell you this. There are Christians who hold… probably half a dozen different views about this. So no matter what view I take, some people will be mad at me. But I have studied this quite a bit, and I think that your situation is such that probably there’s no need for you to question the present legitimacy of your present marriage. I think because of the circumstances of your ex-wife and her ex-husband behaving as they did, I think that they have released you. So I would not Sweat it. Now, you’re going to hear other opinions, like that of the pastor who talked to you, but I’m giving you my opinion. I have an article on divorce remarriage that covers all the scenarios at our website, thenarrowpath.com, under the tab that says Topical Articles. You might want to check it out. I have to take a break. Our website is thenarrowpath.com. Look under Topical Articles for that. I’ll be back in 30 seconds. Don’t go away.
SPEAKER 01 :
Everyone is welcome to call the Narrow Path and discuss areas of disagreement with the host, but if you do so, please state your disagreement succinctly at the beginning of your call and be prepared to present your scriptural arguments when asked by the host. Don’t be disappointed if you don’t have the last word or if your call is cut shorter than you prefer. Our desire is to get as many callers on the air during the short program, so please be considerate to others.
SPEAKER 02 :
Welcome back to the Narrow Path Radio Broadcast. My name is Steve Gregg and we’re live for another half hour taking your calls. If you have questions about the Bible, the Christian faith, anything like that, disagreements with the host, feel free to give me a call. The number is 844- 484. 5737. We have a couple of lines that have opened up. 844. 484-5737. I want to remind our listeners in the Seattle area that I’m doing some speaking up in the Seattle area the second week of next month. So that’s like two weeks from now, something like that. So if you’re in the Seattle area and you’re curious about that, you can go to our website, thenarrowpath.com. Look under announcements and you’ll see the time and places of my speaking up in your area. All right, we’re going to go back to the phones, and we’re going to talk to Peter in Portland, Oregon. Peter, welcome to The Narrow Path. Thanks for calling.
SPEAKER 04 :
Thanks for taking my call, Steve. I’ve called several times. You’ve helped me out a lot. This next question I have, hopefully it appeals to some of your audience as well. So I’ve given my life to Christ when I was 18. I’ve lived for Him my whole life, but I was an abused child when I was young. I’m trying to make this real short. I was introduced to pornography when I was about five years old. And for about 30 years of my life, I used pornography as a way to cope with anything. My dad was the type of guy who never let me have any emotions. Emotions were bad. So anytime I felt any type of emotion, I would, you know, numb it out with that type of act. Well, when I married my wife that I’m with now, you know, I believe that it was God that bring us together because my wife is 100% against pornography. And even though I had known it was always wrong, I never realized how wrong it actually was until I’ve tried to stop. Now it’s been 15 years. And in that 15 years, since I have been with my wife, I have done everything I can to try and get rid of this addiction. I’ve paid for counseling, very expensive counseling, which helped out a lot. I don’t feel that I’m not even in near the same place that I was when I started this whole walk away from it. But the question that I’m getting to is, I heard you on the show a couple days ago talking about a pastor who had repented of what he had done and walked away from that sin and And when you were talking about that, it really spoke to my heart and kind of broke my heart at the same time because repentance is, you know, you admitting that you’re doing something wrong and not going back to it. And it breaks my heart every single time that I choose to go back to this addiction, which is about once every couple months. It breaks my wife’s heart. It ruins our relationship. We have to start over with trust and trust. And I’ve done everything from I have a dumb phone now. I don’t have the Internet. We don’t watch programs that have any sexual content in them. It’s been that way. I’ve put guardrails on my whole entire life, but something will happen that triggers me, and I go back to it, and it breaks my heart. I don’t understand why I keep going back to it. Now, my question is, have I repented? Because it feels like, repentance means i shouldn’t be going back to this you know and it kind of breaks my heart to think maybe i’m not repentant and i i just kind of wanted your ideas and your thoughts on that all right well let me say this um being repentant and being delivered are are not the same thing though they clearly would be related to each other uh
SPEAKER 02 :
People, when they are not Christians, and even after they become Christians in many cases, they have become in bondage to certain habits. Some people are like that with alcohol or something like that. Now, obviously, it’s hard to break sinful habits. Now, the Bible says if we walk in the Spirit, we will not fulfill the lust of the flesh. which means that if you’re walking in the Spirit, you won’t be looking at pornography, you won’t be getting drunk, won’t be using drugs, won’t be doing the things that the flesh craves. But I don’t know anybody who walks in the Spirit at every moment. And for some people, you know, if they’re not walking in the Spirit, you can’t hardly tell because they’re nice, you know, people whose lives are under control, they’re well-disciplined people, and their life looks pretty good. Other people, when they’re not walking in the Spirit, the bondages that still seek to entangle them are scandalous. And people who go back to gambling, go back to alcohol, go back to drugs, go back to pornography or whatever, it’s more scandalous. But the same problem exists. If a person is, let’s just say, is resentful and hateful, but they don’t express it much, Well, if they walk in the spirit, they won’t be. But when they’re not walking in the spirit, you can hardly tell. But their problem is the same one as yours. If you’re not walking in the spirit, you’ve got other issues and they’re much more damaging and perhaps in some ways and more damaging to your relationship with your wife, certainly. But on the other hand, the solution is the same for people with all sin, and that is walk in the Spirit. Now, since I don’t know anybody who walks in the Spirit at all times, Jesus did, but I don’t know if anyone else ever did, obviously we have to make it our goal to walk in the power of the Holy Spirit, which will overcome the power of the law of sin and death, and as Paul said in Romans 8. But since, you know, let’s just say that we’re not perfect people, it is somewhat, I don’t want to say it’s normal because that’s not a norm, but it’s about average that people stumble. I mean, James said in many things, we stumble. Now, when I stumble, I don’t stumble into pornography because I never was into pornography. I don’t stumble into getting drunk because I never did get drunk. But I have my own sins, as everybody does, and stumbling to live a pure life. And you’re very fortunate to have a wife who is understanding enough that she’s not making this a bigger issue than she is. But she must see that you’re repentant also. Repentant means you have changed your mind. And if you haven’t changed your mind… you wouldn’t be calling me about this. If you hadn’t changed your mind, you wouldn’t be bummed out that you fall.
SPEAKER 09 :
Absolutely.
SPEAKER 02 :
Yeah, if you hadn’t changed your mind, you wouldn’t have gotten a dumb phone and stayed away from the Internet. Obviously, you have decided to follow Jesus and you’ve decided to give up pornography. And as long as that’s your determination and you’re seeking to follow the Lord, then, yeah, you’re a repentant person. You’re a Christian, I believe, though, you know, Christians sometimes stumble, and when you stumble, it’s very damaging. So you need to really, of course, do, as you have apparently been doing, everything you know.
SPEAKER 04 :
Yeah, like I listen to Scripture all day long. I read the Word every single day. Like I’m constantly listening to Christian music. There’s never a time when I’m, like, idle. And then I’m doing great for a couple months, and then I don’t even know what happens.
SPEAKER 02 :
I just make a stupid mistake. I’ll tell you the nature of the Christian walk is this. The devil is always going to try to tempt you. And it looks like you’re doing everything you can to avoid temptation. And I imagine there’s lots of times when the temptation comes to your mind and you drive it off and don’t succumb to it. But there are times when you do succumb. Now, this is a battle. And it may seem like, well, I’m going to be battling forever. You know, I’m not really winning this thing. But you are going to win if you keep fighting. The Bible says resist the devil and he’ll flee from you. That doesn’t mean rebuke the devil and he’ll run away and the temptation will disappear instantly. It doesn’t say rebuke the devil. It says resist him, which means that in a warfare kind of situation, you have to keep up a resistance until he flees. But the promise is that he will. That is, unless you stop resisting. As soon as you stop resisting, he wins. But if you keep resisting, he doesn’t have to flee immediately, but he eventually has to. You’ve got the guarantee that if your resistance is unrelenting, that he will ultimately have to flee. Now, I will say this, that many people I know have had bondages in their lives when they became Christians, that they really, really, really wanted to beat and could not for the longest time, but then eventually they did. You know… I would say this. Keep up the fight. I hope your wife understands your situation. Do not ever get to the place where you think, well, falling is inevitable, so I might as well just do it and get it over with.
SPEAKER 04 :
Oh, I don’t even think I could ever get to that place, Steve, because it literally destroys me after I make this decision. And I know there’s no going back, like ever. Even if I wasn’t with my wife, I could never go back.
SPEAKER 02 :
Yeah. Well, I mean, that clearly is a repentant position. You know, you’ve repented of your sin, and once in a while you stumble. Now, I don’t want to give the impression that it’s okay to stumble. But on the other hand, there’s a sense in which stumbling is not the end of the world. I would say this. Don’t ever think it’s okay to stumble. But when you do stumble, realize that there’s grace. You can come to the throne of grace and find grace to help in time of need. All right, brother.
SPEAKER 03 :
Thank you so much, Dave.
SPEAKER 02 :
I’m sympathetic toward your struggle, though I don’t have the same one. I’ve got my own.
SPEAKER 03 :
Thank you so much.
SPEAKER 02 :
All right, brother. God bless. Okay, let’s see here. Howard from Boise, Idaho is next. Howard, welcome.
SPEAKER 08 :
Hi, Steve. In the archives, you had a discussion with somebody about the limiting of the meaning of adultery, and you went back to the pattern of Adam and Eve and saying that the adultery refers only to married situations, and so we had to go by the pattern of Adam and Eve to find out the guidelines for unmarried. And I’m just curious, is that word for adultery that specifically defined that it would not include sex outside of marriage?
SPEAKER 02 :
You know, I don’t actually recognize that argument that you just described. It doesn’t seem to explain a view that I take. But I assume that I said something that you misunderstood. What I may have said, because I do believe this, is that adultery… is a very specific kind of fornication. Fornication is an umbrella term that refers to all forms of sexual misconduct. So, you know, fornication, pornea in the Greek It is used in the Scripture for a variety of things. It’s used in the Septuagint to refer to adultery. It’s used to refer to homosexuality in Jude. It refers to incest in 1 Corinthians 5. You know, we don’t have any instances of bestiality in the Bible, but if there were instances of it, that would be fornication, too, of another kind. prostitution is described as fornication. So there’s lots of different sins, sexual sins, and they all fall under the umbrella of porneia or fornication. Now, each of these kinds of sin is its own thing. In other words, if you succumb to, let’s just say, if you succumb to prostitution, it doesn’t mean you’re guilty of bestiality. You know, it’s a different thing. Or homosexuality, that’s a different thing. But they’re all fornication, and the Bible says fornicators, at least unrepentant ones, will not inherit the kingdom of God. Now, so I’m saying that adultery is specifically when two people are involved sexually and one or both of them are married to somebody else. So, in other words, adultery is the violation of a marriage, of a wedding vow, a wedding covenant, marriage covenant. And so if one or both of the participants in a sexual escapade are actually married to somebody else, that’s adultery. And that had the death penalty under the Old Testament. That was a death penalty, a capital crime. Whereas, for example, if two people who are unmarried slept together, that was not a death penalty thing. That was premarital sex. But there was, you know, there were consequences. They had to get married. If they slept together unmarried, they had to get married, which means, and that would be even if they decided later they didn’t want to be married to each other, they still had to. They couldn’t divorce, the Bible says. So, you know, pretty much the Bible makes it very clear that sex is not for anything except for marriage. And any kind of sex outside of marriage is, you know, sinful. But there’s not always the same penalty. Adultery has, of course, capital punishment attached to it, whereas premarital sex would have simply, at least if you’re doing it with a virgin, the Bible says, if you take a woman’s virginity, you have to marry her. as far as the punishment for other forms of bestiality, homosexuality, and so forth, the Old Testament puts a death penalty on those too. But they’re all each separate kinds of fornication. So is that what you understood me to say? That’s what I would say.
SPEAKER 08 :
Okay, so there’s no specific rule about two people who are just both single dating or something?
SPEAKER 02 :
Yeah, there’s a rule. The rule is you should treat one another with purity. And you don’t sleep with a woman until you’ve married her because she’s not yours until you’ve married her. Now, you might be planning to get married, but lots of people plan to get married and then end up not doing so. In fact, a lot of people get married and end up getting unmarried. But that’s sinful. But, you know, it’s not sinful. to be seeing someone with a mind that, hey, we’d like to get married, and then for whatever reason to break it off, you know, as long as you haven’t made those vows. When the vow’s been made, you can’t get out of it. But until those vows are made, she doesn’t belong to you. And she might someday belong to somebody else. And that’s the thing. It’s not just that, you know, she’s just an object out there, unattached to anyone, and therefore a plaything for whoever wants to You know, enjoy her. No, she’s in most cases. She’s probably somebody else’s future wife. And and in the Bible, if a woman got married and she was found not to be a virgin, if she had represented herself as one, that was a serious matter. That was a sin. So and punishable. So it was understood that you don’t sleep with somebody’s future wife. you don’t even sleep with your future wife. You sleep with your wife. So, I mean, that’s kind of an overarching ethic of sexuality throughout the Bible. And all the laws that are given about it, about various forms of sexual behavior, they all take that into consideration that only marriage, you know, biblical marriage, is a context in which sexual activity is permitted. Okay, let’s talk to Frank in Orland, California. Frank, welcome to The Narrow Path. Thanks for calling.
SPEAKER 03 :
Hey, Steve. I’m actually the same guy that was Frank in Albany years ago when I used to live in Albany, Oregon.
SPEAKER 02 :
Oh, okay.
SPEAKER 03 :
Now you’re in California like me. Yep.
SPEAKER 02 :
Oh, you’re in California now, huh? Yeah, I used to be in Oregon myself, yeah.
SPEAKER 03 :
Oh, cool. Well, I have a question, and it kind of relates to two or three questions. times ago that you were talking to someone, and this last time, they seem connected. Because the guy mentioned that his wife was divorced by her husband. But I was remembering that scripture that says whoever divorces his wife causes her to commit adultery. And so I thought, well, I mean, if she’s already committing adultery, the guy’s not causing her to. But if she isn’t, how is he causing her to commit adultery unless, like I thought, if she were to be with someone else, it would be adultery, even though she wasn’t the one that made the divorce happen. Right.
SPEAKER 02 :
Yeah, it’s not entirely clear what would change that fact, except it was understood under the Old Testament that if a man divorced his wife, she could go and become another man’s wife. And if the second husband died or divorced her, there’s no suggestion that she couldn’t marry a third time, but there is a suggestion she could not go back to her first husband because he had Right. I remember that. Jeremiah, right? Well, Jeremiah does mention that. It’s actually in Deuteronomy 24, but Jeremiah also brings it up in Jeremiah 3, I believe. So, you know, when Jesus said a man causes her to commit adultery, it’s not clear exactly how he means that. It may mean that, you know, she ends up going into a marriage that is adultery or that she goes into prostitution, which if her marriage is not legitimately broken… that she’s still married to her first husband. Now, you know, what exactly it takes for her to be free from that is ambiguous. I think especially if her husband, after he divorces her, sleeps with somebody else, that would basically nullify her first marriage and set her free. Now, in the case of the persons we were talking to, Her husband had divorced her what seems like almost a decade earlier and obviously had not wanted her back. And so she seems like a woman who is described in Deuteronomy chapter 24. But, yeah, I mean, Jesus has a certain picture in mind of a man cheating on his wife, putting her in a compromised position because he doesn’t keep his vows to her. And she ends up in adultery. Yeah, I have to say, we have only really a handful of passages in the Bible about divorce and remarriage. And they address rather narrow circumstances. And therefore, it’s hard to know sometimes how much they are conditioned. by the specific circumstances that’s described and what exactly I meant. But you make a very good point, and I would make it too, that when Jesus said you cause your wife to commit adultery, then he’s saying that for her to remarry in that situation, he’s probably saying that it is adultery for her to do that. But I don’t think it could refer to every case differently. Because, of course, that would go against the law. Now, we might say, well, we’re not under the law. No, we’re not under the law. But the Bible says many times that the law is perfect and is pure. Even Paul says that in 1 Corinthians 7. He says, we know that the law is holy and just and good. So, even though we’re not under the ceremonial laws, the moral standards of the laws are said to be good. And so, we can’t just pretend like they’re not there or that Jesus was somehow… in his mind, canceling out that what had always been the law that Moses gave. At least I don’t think he was. Some people do. Like I told them, you’re going to meet Christians who hold half a dozen different views on this. My own view is that if a person renounces their vows, and of course, especially if they do so by sleeping with somebody else, that is a renunciation of their vows. then the other party is free. Now, there’s another aspect to this also. Now, it doesn’t sound like this woman, the wife of the man who called, it doesn’t sound like they went through the steps of Matthew 18. But Paul made it very clear that if an unbelieving man is not content to dwell with a believing wife and puts her away or gets rid of her, leaves her, she’s free, which I take to mean free to remarry.
SPEAKER 03 :
That was one thing about that scripture, though. It says she’s not bound. I was wondering if that meant bound to stay following him around, but not talking about freedom of marriage.
SPEAKER 02 :
If he won’t live with her, if he won’t live with her and he doesn’t want her, I think she’s not bound to the marriage at all. Now, if you’re bound by a covenant, you’re bound. You know, if you have a covenant that you have to keep with somebody, that’s binding, you know. So when Paul says she’s not bound or not under bondage in such cases, he later in the same chapter, 1 Corinthians 7, near the end, he says that a widow, well, a woman is bound to her husband, but when her husband is dead, she’s free to remarry. So he contrasts bound with free to remarry. So, you know, later on, the woman who is bound is not free to remarry. The woman who is not bound is free to remarry. So that’s how I understand it. Now, a lot of people want to make this more restrictive. I have to say most of the people who take the more restrictive view are people who have not been divorced against their will and have not understood the whole justice issues involved. But, see, I believe that a person can be very faithful to their vows, and yet their unbelieving spouse… divorces them. Now this woman’s husband almost certainly was an unbeliever. Now let’s just say he claimed to be a believer. Well if you claim to be a believer that means you claim you’re following Jesus. You don’t divorce your wife if you’re following Jesus. And so that in the New Testament you’d go through a Matthew 18 situation where eventually the church declares him to be like an unbeliever because he doesn’t repent. I’d say after a decade after divorcing your wife if you haven’t repented, you’re not a Christian, you know. I mean, God will be the final judge, but Jesus said in such cases you should treat the person as if they’re not a Christian. You don’t know if they are or not, but you have to deal with them as if they’re not a Christian, which would mean she, now I don’t even know if she was a Christian at that time, so it’s hard to say. It’s possible this divorce took place before either of them were saved. In which case, I don’t think you can go and unscramble the egg. I think once you get saved, you should keep all the promises you can. But if somebody has already broken their promise to you and you get saved, I don’t think you have to force them to get back into that relationship with you when they’re not a Christian. So, I mean, there’s a lot of nuances here. I think Christians tend to like to be as legalistic as possible, which means they like to have a rule for every situation. And there are rules for different situations. But the rules have to do with justice, and they have to do with faithfulness, and the obligation to keep your promises and things like that. The rules have to express that. But we want more like… Check the box. What category is this? Here’s the rule here. And, you know, I don’t think that the Christian walk is so much a walk of rules for every situation as it is a life of living justly, faithfully. Mercifully, these are the way they’re imagined of the law. And I believe that the reason divorce is so bad is because, generally speaking, it is unfaithfulness and injustice. Someone promised they’ll be faithful for life, and they don’t. They break their vows. And I think even if, you know, so that’s an injustice. So I’m, you know, I’m kind of, I’m strongly of the opinion that this woman’s husband was not a Christian. I don’t know if she was or not, but if neither of them were, then I don’t think the instructions are for them. Because Paul… said that Jesus told believing couples to stay together and not to divorce. But he said to the rest, that is, a believer who is an unbeliever, he had other instructions. That’s all found in 1 Corinthians 7, verses 10 through 15. I’m out of time. Sorry to say, if you’re listening to The Narrow Path, our website is thenarrowpath.com. Thanks for joining us.
