Join us for a special live broadcast on Thanksgiving Day as we explore a range of intriguing biblical questions and topics. From the practice of observing the Sabbath to the implications of Jesus’ teachings about trees and fruits, we delve into theological discussions that aim to enlighten and provoke thought. Discover how ancient scriptures apply to modern life and enjoy interactive dialogue with callers from coast to coast.
SPEAKER 01 :
Good afternoon, and welcome to the Narrow Path radio broadcast. And if you’re wondering whether we’re doing a live broadcast today, being Thanksgiving Day, the answer is yes. And if you ask why, I say, why not? I don’t like to take holidays, and if I don’t have to, sometimes we have to, because sometimes the support staff in the radio station have the day off. But today they’ve allowed me to do it for today and tomorrow, which ordinarily happens. might not be the case. So today and tomorrow we are doing live programs as we always do, which means you can call in. Now, there’s no calls waiting because I assume most people assumed that we’re not doing a live program. Now that you know that we are, if you have questions about the Bible or about the Christian faith that you’d like to bring up for conversation, this is a good day to do so because, again, the lines are wide open. You can get right through. The number to call is 844- 844-484-5737. That’s 844-484-5737. I imagine our listeners on the East Coast are probably already involved in their Thanksgiving dinner. Some of you who live further west, it’s earlier in the day, you’re welcome to call. Like I said, it’s a good time to get through I’m going to take a question that came to me in the email yesterday, and there’s, again, room for you on our switchboards at this point, at 844-484-5737. I received from John an email, I think it was yesterday, maybe the day before. He said, Steve, you believe… that a real Christian can finally and fully fall away, as I once did, and also that we may inherit Adam’s nature, but not his judgment slash punishment. But there is one overarching main scripture and several other corollary scriptures that refute these. It is this, a good tree cannot bear evil fruit, and an evil tree cannot bear good fruit. This one scripture proves total inability and perseverance of the saints. How do you scripturally get over this hurdle? Now, the statement that a good tree produces good fruit and a bad tree produces bad fruit is originally something Jesus said. In fact, he said it twice. He said it in Matthew 7. He said it again in Matthew 12. In Matthew 7, 15, it’s in the context of beware of false prophets. He says, beware of false prophets. who come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves. You will know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes from thorn bushes or figs from thistles? Even so, every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a bad tree produce good fruit. Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. Therefore, by their fruits you will know them. Now, here he’s talking about false prophets, but this can apply to, you know, false spirituality in general, too. A person’s character will be known by their fruits, just like a tree. If you’re getting good fruit off that tree consistently, it’s a healthy tree. If most of the time you’re getting bad fruit from it, it’s got probably some kind of disease or some problem with the tree. Now, therefore, he’s saying that the tree produces good fruit because it is a good tree, and it’s nature for a good tree to produce good fruit. But if the tree is bad, then it’s got a problem, a natural problem, and it won’t produce the good fruit. Now, the questioner here is apparently saying that all people are bad trees, and because bad trees can’t produce good fruit, then a person who is a bad tree cannot repent, cannot believe, cannot choose God. This is what Calvinists believe, and I’m pretty sure the questioner is a Calvinist. It sounds like it from what he argues. So a person who is a bad person cannot do good things like to repent or to believe. Now, that is not, in my opinion, what Jesus says, and I don’t think it’s even true, because he’s talking about trees. Now, trees, a good tree might produce a bad apple once in a while, but it can’t, if it’s a good tree, it will not produce consistently bad fruit. In fact, most of its fruit will be good. But even a bad tree might occasionally come up with a good apple, almost against its spite of itself. I mean, there are irregularities in the harvest of fruit from trees. A tree that’s relatively bad and unfruitful might come out with one good apple or two once in a while. And a bad tree, I mean a good one, might come up with a bad apple, an inferior once in a while. Jesus is saying you know a tree by its fruit, and by that he means fruit. by its regular fruition. You know, what does it generally put out? If it puts out mostly good apples, most of the time, it’s a good tree. But that doesn’t mean it never puts out a bad one. And if it mostly puts out really bad fruit and only rarely puts out a good piece of fruit, well, that’s not a good tree. He’s not saying that a tree that is bad never produces one good apple or that a bad tree or a good tree never produces a bad apple. He’s talking about the consistency of one’s life. If your life is characterized by bad fruit, bad character, well, then you’re a bad person. If your life is characterized by good character, you’re a good person. And the reason is because you’ve got, you know, there’s something good about you. I think biblically we’d say it’s because you’re saved. Because you’re saved, you’ve got the grace of God working in you, transforming you, so that the fruit of the Spirit is produced in your life. But even a person who is producing the fruit of the Spirit in their life quite regularly occasionally does things that are wrong, occasionally acts contrary to that. And the same thing may be true of someone whose life is, generally speaking, not good. Their behavior is generally bad. That doesn’t mean they can’t have a moment of charity, a moment of humility, a moment of, you know, a sense of their need for God and carve out to God. This statement of trees and people is more to say, look at a person’s life and you can see by their life, not by every single thing they do, because, frankly, bad people occasionally do good deeds sometimes. There’s lots of bad people who give very generously to charities, for example. That’s a good thing. There are bad people who are bad in the sense that they’re not following Christ who are nonetheless faithful to their wives and who reject certain seductions that are available to them, but they’re faithful to their wives. Now, that’s a good thing that they do. That doesn’t mean they’re good people. They’re good in that respect, but the rest of their life might really be bad. So it’s not impossible for somebody who’s generally got bad character to uncharacteristically do a good thing. And it’s certainly not unheard of for people who have good character to uncharacteristically stumble and fall into a sin. In fact, it’s fairly universal, James said. So to say a good tree doesn’t produce bad fruit, that’s a general statement. It doesn’t mean that it doesn’t ever have a bad piece of fruit. But it’s fairly reliably good, and its fruit is reliably good. A bad tree, its fruit is going to be fairly reliably bad. It’s very similar to what Paul said in Romans 8, in verses 5 through, I think, 7. He said, “…for those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit set their minds on the things of the Spirit.” For to be carnally minded is death, but to be spiritually minded is life and peace, because the carnal mind is enmity against God. For it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be. So then those who are in the flesh cannot please God. Now, Paul said that those who are in the flesh, which is a term he uses in Romans 8, to mean someone who’s not a Christian. Because in the next verse, he says, but you’re not in the flesh, but in the spirit. If so, be the spirit of God dwells in you. Now, if anyone does not have the spirit of Christ, he’s not of his. So he’s saying Christians are not in the flesh. They’re in the spirit. They have the spirit of God. So a person who’s in the flesh is not a Christian. I mean, that’s the terminology Paul is using. And in Romans 8, he says, those who are in the flesh cannot please God. Now, I debated a Calvinist who said that proves that if a person’s unregenerate, they can’t have faith because faith pleases God. It’s impossible to please him without faith, the writer of Hebrews says. So, obviously, since faith pleases God, and a person who’s in the flesh can’t please God, a person who’s unregenerate can’t have faith. Well, that’s certainly going far beyond anything Paul’s trying to say. Paul’s saying that a person who doesn’t have the Holy Spirit, a person who’s not a Christian, can’t live a life pleasing to God. And we know that he means that because he says equally that those who do have the Spirit, they can’t, you know, live in sin. That is, a person who has the Spirit of God is going to be walking in the Spirit most of the time anyway. But Christians who have the Holy Spirit sometimes sin too. And unbelievers who don’t have the Spirit of God are going to most of the time be living a carnal life. But that doesn’t mean they don’t have any spiritual inclinations or any virtues, you know, in them. They just don’t have the power to live the life that pleases God. It doesn’t mean that they never make any choices in life that are more pleasing to God than other choices they could make. If a man sees, you know, a wallet on the ground, he’s not a Christian, he looks in, there’s a $10,000 in the wallet, of course, he could just take that money and put it in his pocket and walk away. Or he could say, that’s not an honest thing to do. I think I’ll try to find the person whose wallet this is and give the money back to him. Now, you don’t have to be a Christian to make that choice. A non-Christian can make either choice. But certainly, the choice to return the money to its owner is a choice more pleasing to God than stealing the money. Now, I realize that some of the Calvinists would say, well, no, that’s not true, because an unbeliever can’t do anything good. And even when he does what looks like a good deed, he’s doing it for bad motives, which makes it not a good thing. Well, the Bible doesn’t actually say that. That’s their theology talking. That’s the drugs talking. That’s the theology talking. When you’ve got this theological position, you have to say things like that, in order to explain reality. The problem is the Bible doesn’t give you the right to talk like that. The Bible doesn’t say that about unbelievers. It doesn’t say that everything they do is bad. And when it says a bad tree doesn’t produce good fruit, it means, generally speaking, you can tell a tree by its fruit, though there may be exceptional pieces of fruit that don’t go along with the general character of the tree. And James said to Christians, in many things we all stumble. Well, that doesn’t go along with the stumbling is not consistent with the character of a godly person. But James says that godly people do it anyway, sometimes. And, you know, it’s not possible for an unbeliever without the Spirit of God to live a life that pleases God. It can be done by those who have the Spirit, but not by those who don’t. But when Paul says those who are in the flesh cannot please God, it doesn’t mean they can’t do anything that is in any sense pleasing to God. You’ve got contradictions of that in the scriptures. Certainly Acts chapter 10 talks about Cornelius. Before he heard the gospel and before he was what the Bible calls saved, he’s a pagan. Well, he was a Gentile, a Roman, and he was seeking God. He didn’t know God. He knew of God because he knew, I guess, of the Jewish God. But we read about this unregenerated man in Acts 10. It says there was a certain man in Caesarea called Cornelius, a centurion. It says a devout man and one who feared God with all his household and gave alms generously to the poor and prayed to God always. Now, did God hate all those good works because he was unregenerate? No, because it says about the ninth hour of the day, he saw clearly a vision of an angel coming and saying to him, Cornelius, he said, your prayers and your alms have come up for a memorial before God. That means that the good deeds he was doing, the gifts he was giving to the poor, his prayers, were accepted in the presence of God. And for that reason, God sent an angel to direct him to find Peter so he could hear the gospel and learn more about God. But this was a man who was not born again. And yet he did things that God himself seemed to favor. It is possible to do things that please God, even if you’re not born again. It’s just that you can’t be saved simply by doing some things that please God. And if you’re a bad tree and most of your fruit is bad, but once in a while you do a good thing, that doesn’t mean that God’s pleased with you as a good tree. But it does mean that Jesus is not saying, and Paul does not say, that an unregenerated person simply can’t do anything right, including repent or believe. That’s what Calvinism teaches. That’s certainly not anything the Bible teaches anywhere. All right, we’re going to go to the phones now. Our lines are full. We’ll talk first to Hector in Worcester, Massachusetts. Hi, Hector. Welcome to The Narrow Path. Thanks for calling. Hector left the lines. He’s left the building. Well, we have another caller in Worcester, Massachusetts. This is Joseph in Worcester, Massachusetts. Welcome to The Narrow Path, Joseph.
SPEAKER 03 :
Okay. Thank you very much for taking my call. My name is Joseph, as you just mentioned. My question is, does the Sabbath still exist?
SPEAKER 01 :
Does the Sabbath still exist, you’re asking me?
SPEAKER 03 :
Yes. Yes. Well… If it does… If it doesn’t, then why? If it does, then why do we worship on Sunday?
SPEAKER 01 :
Yeah. Well, the Sabbath exists in the sense that Saturday, the name for the Saturday is Sabbath in the Jewish religion. The question is, are people required to observe Sabbath as the Jews do? I mean, observant Jews observe Sabbath. And lots of Christians observe the Jewish Sabbath, too. And other Christians, they observe what they would call the Sabbath on Sunday. But, of course, the Bible never authorized the change of the Sabbath from Saturday to Sunday. The question is, are Christians obligated to keep the Sabbath? And the answer from the New Testament would appear to be no. Because in Romans chapter 14 and verse 5, Paul said about the church, he’s talking about Christians in Rome, he says, one man esteems one day above another. Another man esteems every day alike. Let everyone be fully persuaded in his own mind. Now, he’s saying there’s different convictions among the Christians in the Church of Rome. Some of them think they should keep a holy day. Others don’t. And Paul said, just do whatever your conscience tells you. Let everyone be fully persuaded in his own mind. In other words, Paul doesn’t say that either of them are in the wrong. Do what your conscience says. That means that if a person keeps the Sabbath, he’s not doing something wrong. On the other hand, if he doesn’t keep the Sabbath, he’s also not doing something wrong. And if not keeping the Sabbath isn’t wrong, then keeping the Sabbath is not required. So Paul says that some people do it, some people don’t, and neither of them is necessarily wrong. So, you know, in other words, we have the liberty, if you want to keep the Sabbath, and many people have found it to be helpful, to take a day of rest and to do the kinds of things that Jews do on the Sabbath day. Some Christians do that. I remember Charlie Kirk was saying that he had learned to benefit from doing that kind of thing, though I don’t think he was advocating the necessity of keeping Sabbath, but there are Christians who do. And Paul did not require that Christians keep the Sabbath. Neither did Jesus, by the way. In fact, the disciples were criticized, and Jesus was criticized for their actions, because they did some labor on the Sabbath, which the Jews said was not lawful to do on the Sabbath. And Jesus did by healing on the Sabbath. The Sabbath law said that you do your regular work six days a week, and on the Sabbath day you don’t do any of that, which meant that under the Sabbath law, A doctor, a physician, could treat sick people six days a week, and he could not do it on the Sabbath because that’s his regular work. You’re not supposed to do your regular work on the Sabbath. The only exception being if a sick person needed care on the Sabbath day and would not survive to the next day. If he could survive to the next day, the Sabbath law was, well, you can just the next day treat him. But if he’s going to die today and it’s the Sabbath, go ahead and treat him. There was that provision in the law. That is in the Jewish understanding of it. But the point is that Jesus healed every day. And Jesus got criticism a lot because he healed people on the Sabbath as well as every day. The one thing Jesus did not do is cease from his regular work. On the Sabbath day, he did it every day. And that is what the Sabbath law forbids. And so when they criticized Jesus for this in John chapter 5, he said, well, my father works until now, meaning every day up until today, which is the Sabbath when he said it, and I do too. What he’s saying is my father and I follow the same policy. And my father works every day. And so do I, because I’m his son and I’m learning his trade. And when he said that, it says in verse 18 of John 5, Therefore the Jews sought all the more to kill him, because he not only broke the Sabbath. Now notice, John tells us that Jesus broke the Sabbath. But he also said that God was his father, making himself equal with God. Now, they wanted to kill him because he broke the Sabbath and said that God was his father, two very offensive things to them. Now, Christians who think you have to keep the Sabbath would say, well, Jesus can’t break the Sabbath because that would be a sin. No, it would not be a sin for him to do it because he said that he’s the Lord of the Sabbath. You know, if I drive on the freeways at 95 miles an hour, I’m breaking the speed laws. If a policeman with his lights flashing and his sirens on is driving 95 miles an hour on the freeway, he’s also breaking the speed laws, but he’s authorized to do it. He’s not in the wrong. He’s violating the laws, but he has a special dispensation. He’s a cop. He’s chasing criminals. So he can do that without being in error. Jesus was the Lord of the Sabbath, and that means the Sabbath was under him. He was not under it. And therefore, he could do what his father does, work every day. And God does not cease from his work. He did once, when he created the universe and the world, he rested on the seventh day. But we don’t read that God ever rested again. And so God works seven days a week. And you said, well, he’s my dad. I’m his apprentice. An apprentice son learns how to do the father’s work the same way the father does it. And I notice he works every day, so so do I. And that is, in fact, technically breaking the Sabbath. But so is it when a policeman is going 95 miles an hour with his lights on. He’s breaking the speed laws. But he’s authorized. And Jesus can do that because he’s not under the Sabbath. It is under him. And then he was also criticized because he allowed his disciples to work on the Sabbath. when they were picking grain and rubbing it in their hands. Technically, that’s harvesting. That’s winnowing. Those are the kinds of things in an agrarian society that are considered work. And it’s the kind of things that you’re not supposed to do on the Sabbath, if you’re under the Sabbath. But Jesus defended them and said that he was more important than the temple. And, you know, people who work in the temple can offer sacrifices on the Sabbath. So, you know, they’re authorized because they’re doing the temple work. He says, well, I’m greater than the temple. This is in Matthew 12. And he says, obviously, by implication, my disciples who do my work can do it whenever they want to, whenever I want them to. You see, the Sabbath was an Old Testament command. It was not commanded to anyone to keep it until Exodus 16, after the Exodus. And then it became one of the Ten Commandments for the Jews under the Old Covenant. But God never gave that law to, say, Abraham or Isaac or Jacob. or Noah, or Enoch that we know of, there’s no reference to anyone keeping the Sabbath prior to the Exodus. And it became part of the law of Moses. And when the law was fulfilled by Christ, the keeping of the Sabbath ceased to be part of the covenant that God is dealing with. The old covenant is elapsed. It says in Hebrews that it’s obsolete, and that there’s a new covenant now. So we’re not under the obligation to keep the things the old covenant commanded us, simply because we’re not under it. We’re not involved in that covenant. That was an agreement between God and Israel at Mount Sinai, and that agreement has been scrapped. There’s a new covenant now that makes the old one obsolete, and that new one does not include any commands for Sabbath observance. So that’s why the Sabbath is no longer part of obligation today, because Christians are under a new covenant, and Sabbath keeping was part of the old covenant. All right, I appreciate your call. Well, our first half hour has gotten away from us pretty quickly. We have other calls waiting, and we’re going to take them. We have another half hour coming up, but at the bottom of the hour, we do like to let our listeners know some things, if you don’t already know. One is that you really need to get the Narrow Path app on your device, on your phone or iPad or whatever you have. Now, getting the iPad, Getting the Narrow Path app is a little different than getting other apps because most of them you go to the App Store or to Google Play to get the app. This is a web-based app. It works the same as any other, but you get it differently. You go to your browser. So if you’ve got an iPhone, you go to probably Safari. If you’ve got an Android, you go to maybe Google or whatever browser you use. And you go to this website on your phone. It’s thenarrowpath.app. Now, our regular website is thenarrowpath.com, so it should be easy to remember if you want the app. Go on a browser, not at the App Store, but on the browser. Go to thenarrowpath.app. And there you’ll see the opportunity to download the little icon for that app onto your phone. Once you do, it will look like all the other icons for all your apps. So you just get it differently, but it functions like any other app after that. So I’ll tell you, you can listen into the program live. You can listen to the archives of all the programs of the past. You can listen to any of the lectures. There’s about 1,500 lectures of mine at our website. You can listen to them from the app. There’s a lot of other opportunities. There’s a link to our YouTube channel there and to other, you know, features. So if you don’t have the Narrow Path app, get it. Because then, you know, you don’t have to wait until we’re on the air to listen to the Narrow Path. And you don’t have to be at a computer. You can just have your phone. So go to on a browser on your phone. The narrow path dot app. That’s a Web site. And it’ll give you instructions there how to download it onto your main page on your phone or your iPad. All right. The narrow path is listener supported. And if you want to help us stay on there, you can donate from the Web site. Now, I don’t think there’s a place on the app to donate. I could be wrong, but I don’t remember if the app has a donation feature. opportunity there but if you go to our website thenarrowpath.com if you wish you can donate to the program there will be a link there to donate you can write to us at thenarrowpath P.O. Box 1730 Temecula California 92593 or you can as I say donate if you wish from the app or from the website which is thenarrowpath.com we have another half hour coming don’t go away I’ll be back in 30 seconds so stay tuned
SPEAKER 07 :
If you call the narrow path, please have your question ready as soon as you are on the air. Do not take much time setting up the question or giving background. If such detail is needed to clarify your question, the host will ask for such information. Our desire is to get as many callers on the air during the short program. There are many calls waiting behind you, so please be considerate to others.
SPEAKER 01 :
Welcome back to the Narrow Path radio broadcast. My name is Steve Gregg, and we’re on for another half hour live. Yes, Thanksgiving Day, we’re live. And so if you just tuned in late and didn’t know that, you can call in, though it is Thanksgiving Day. The number to call is 844-484-5737. Our lines are almost full, but there is one line open at 844-484-5737. Our next call comes from David from Vancouver, British Columbia. Hi, David. Welcome. Hi, Steve.
SPEAKER 04 :
Hi, Steve. I don’t usually get a chance to call in because your phone line is always busy, but I guess because it’s Thanksgiving, I was able to get through. Can you hear me okay?
SPEAKER 01 :
Yes, go ahead. Please.
SPEAKER 04 :
Hello, Steve. Can you hear me okay?
SPEAKER 01 :
Can you not hear me?
SPEAKER 04 :
I couldn’t there. Sorry. I can hear you now. Okay, go ahead. Could you hear me then? Oh, yeah. So I’ve been going down kind of a difficult road lately. One, I’m a Christian. Secondly, I just started sort of a plant-based diet, and based on theology. Questions for you, what your thoughts are on that. Colossians 1.20 says that God has reconciled all things through Christ, and And so when I see that, I think, okay, all things. And then I go back to what happened at the fall. What did he reconcile? And the diet he gave us was plants and vegetables. And I’m wondering what your thoughts are on that.
SPEAKER 01 :
Well, there’s certainly nothing wrong with eating a plant-based diet, but there’s certainly nothing that commands it in Scripture. It is true that in Genesis 1, before the fall, God did say that every tree and every fruit and every herb of the ground is given to the animals and to man as food. Now, it doesn’t say that they could only eat those things, but that all of them are available for food. But it does seem like animal food was not eaten prior to the flood. Now, after the flood, God made it very clear that eating animals was not only okay, but recommended. It says in Genesis 9, verse 2, the fear of you and the dread of you. He’s speaking to Noah and his family. And the dread of you shall be on every beast of the earth, on every bird of the air, and on all that move on the earth, and on all the fish of the sea. They are given into your hand. Every moving thing that lives shall be food for you. I have given you all things, even as the green herbs. Now, notice he says, even as I’ve already given you the green herb seed, now every animal is fair game. You can eat those too. So it’s obvious that God changed the norm after the flood. For whatever reasons, I won’t go into the theories about that, but whether we know the reason or not, God made it very clear that eating animal food was not only okay but recommended, but not commanded, because Paul did say in Romans 14, a section I was talking about when I was talking about the Sabbath, because in Romans 14.5, He made it very clear that some Christians in Rome kept a holy day and some did not. And that was okay. Both were okay. He also said in the verses before that, that some of the Christians in Rome ate a plant-based diet. They limited themselves to a plant-based diet. And other Christians ate whatever they wanted to eat and believed they could eat all things. And just like he said about keeping a holy day or not, that basically just do whatever your conscience tells you, it’s okay. He said the same thing about those who eat plants only and those who eat everything. So there’s definitely a freedom to eat whatever you want to, or if you have health reasons for doing it, you know, there’s no reason you can’t just go to a plant-based diet. Now, if people forbid you to eat meat and you eat a plant-based diet because you think it’s sinful to eat a meat, well, then you’re getting into dangerous legalism. Paul said in 1 Timothy 4, 1 Timothy 4, verse 1 says, Now the Spirit expressly says that in latter times some will depart from the faith, giving heed to deceiving spirits and doctrines of demons. He says in verse 3, Forbidding to marry. That is, the doctrines of demons these people will follow will be doctrines that forbid people to marry and commanding them to abstain from foods which God created to be received with thanksgiving by those who believe and know the truth. Paul says in verse 4, And five, for every creature of God, meaning every animal, is good, and nothing is to be refused if it is received with thanksgiving, for it is sanctified by the word of God and prayer. So, eating food is something God has sanctified, and apparently that’s all foods. every food, including animal food, he said. And he said there will be people who teach doctrines of demons which forbid you to eat certain foods. Apparently meat is what he has in mind because he says because every animal should be eaten or is good for food if it’s received at Thanksgiving. So a plant-based diet is not sinful, but one who feels that there’s a moral obligation to to abstain from eating meat is spiritually moving in a direction that Paul said is the same direction as some who would teach doctrines of demons. So there is a tendency of many, certainly like Hindus, for example, to not eat meat because of the idea that the animal could be a reincarnation of some person who had lived in the past, maybe one of their ancestors, something like that. And therefore, you would not kill and eat it because that’s like eating a person. It’s just that the animal is the latest incarnation of that person. And so, you know, you don’t eat them. Now, that’s wrong. I mean, the basis of it is wrong. The whole reincarnation thing is wrong. But it would certainly be true, I suppose, if reincarnation is true, that, you know, the cow or the chicken that you might want to eat could be one of your relatives from the past. And it would seem very plausible. You’re not disrespectful to eat your relatives like that and be like cannibalism. So there are doctrines of demons that teach that you shouldn’t eat meat. So, you know, again, if you’re eating a plant-based diet for health reasons, that’s fine. If you’re doing it because you have a conviction that people shouldn’t eat meat, Well, that’s not agreeable with Christianity. Now, I know a lot of people have chosen vegetarianism or veganism today because they object to the way animals are raised for food and the way they’re treated. the way chickens are treated, the way cows are treated and so forth, and pigs who are being raised for food and butchered and so forth, that there’s some cruelty, a serious amount of cruelty involved in some of the animal farming methods and slaughterhouse methods. I won’t deny that. The Bible doesn’t say that it’s okay to be cruel to animals. But on the other hand, you know, when they offered animal sacrifices in the temple by God’s command, they slit the throat of animals and drained out the blood and then dismembered them and cooked them on the altar and so forth and ate them. And some of them they just burned up completely, different kinds of sacrifices. But, yeah, the Bible does not ever actually talk about animal rights necessarily. Or animals, you know, that they’re to be respected like people are respected or that you can’t eat them. But it certainly does say in Proverbs that a righteous man is kind even to his animals or to his beast. So clearly, you know, a nice person, a kind person is not going to be cruel to people or animals. I mean, a kind person is sympathetic toward the suffering of others. And it says animals suffer too. A kind person would not wish to be cruel and cause suffering unnecessarily. But that doesn’t mean you can’t slaughter animals in a merciful way. And there are more humane ways to do that. So, I mean, if you feel like you should eat a plant-based diet, you have some health reasons for that, that might be reasonable. If you’re doing it for conscience sake, then this gets into the area of a kind of legalism where you make moral rules that God doesn’t make. And we don’t want to go beyond God’s commands about those kind of things. Let’s talk to Gil in New York City, New York. Hi, Gil. Welcome.
SPEAKER 08 :
Oh, hi. Happy Thanksgiving to you and your wife and your whole family. And I’m the blind caller that called you about a couple of years ago or maybe less. And I told you that I suffered from ringing in the ears, you might remember as well, as King David says, that it was good for me that I was afflicted, that I might learn your decree, Psalm 119, verse 71. In Ephesians 4.29, it says, Let no corrupt communication proceed forth from your mouth, but that which is good for the use of edifying, that it may minister grace unto the hearers. And then in Proverbs… 18, 21, it says, death and life are in the power of the tongue. I was wondering if you could expound on those two verses. Thank you for having me on the air.
SPEAKER 01 :
Sure. Thank you for calling. Well, death and life are the power of the tongue, Solomon said, and he’s talking to his son, who is probably going to be the next king, is, I think, arguing that something as ordinarily harmless as sounds coming out of a person’s mouth can be very consequential. particularly, for example, if a king issues a decree that somebody should be executed, and kings have the right to do that, or to absolve a criminal and let him go free and live. That is, that person’s life or death hangs in the way the king speaks. What he says will determine the life or death of the person. I don’t believe… As some people do, the word of faith people say, well, you know, if you say negative things, you’re going to bring sickness and bad things, maybe death on yourself. And because life and death are in the power of the tongue. This is part of their general doctrine that you will have whatever you say. And they’re trying to say there’s sort of a supernatural power in the spoken word, which, you know, if you’re negative, say negative things, it could go as far as killing you. If you say positive things, it can extend your life. Now, I will say there are situations besides that, which I think Solomon is referring to, in which somebody’s words can cause somebody else to die. I mean, if you – I mean, there are things you can say that can put a target on somebody’s back from the authorities or even from criminals who want to kill them because you’ve lied about them, you’ve – maligned them, you’ve targeted them. Obviously, things you say can often cause somebody to be killed. I think that Solomon’s particular meaning to his son, who’s going to be the next king, is that, you know, the tongue, it’s amazing how powerful a tongue can be. James makes this point also in James chapter 3. He says, consider how great a fire A little forest fire, a little flame kindles, so also the tongue is like a flame, and it sets on fire the whole course of nature, James said. He talks about the tongue being like the steering of a ship with a rudder. The rudder is a little thing, but it steers the whole ship. And he says the tongue is like that. It’s a little thing, but it pulls great things. The Bible often says that the tongue is not something to be trifled with. It’s not something to be thought, well, you know, sticks and stones may break my bones, but words will never hurt me. Words may hurt you more than sticks and stones in some cases. And so the Bible often lays emphasis on this. It’s not that there’s magic in the words. It’s that there’s information in the words. And if it’s bad information… It can have very negative impact depending on what kind of information it is. It’s up to and including, you know, the point of somebody being killed because of slander or lies that are told about them. So, I mean, this is what, I mean, life and death are in the power of the tongue. This is not a general rule given that whatever you say is going to determine whether you live or die. It’s saying that you might think the tongue is a small matter and what you say has little consequence. No, it can have incredible consequence. It can be very damaging up to even the point of someone being put to death because of somebody’s words. But it’s not saying that you’re going to determine whether you live or die by speaking negatively or positively. Now, Ephesians 4, which you brought up first, Paul said, let no corrupt communication proceed out of your mouth but only that which is good for necessary edification, that it may impart grace to the hearers. The idea here is that, again, your words are very powerful things. They can minister grace to people, which is very desirable. Or they can be corrupt words. They can be corrupt words, and they can corrupt people. So the point is that you should make it your aim to never speak anything that is inappropriate, anything corrupt, and to make it your goal that what you say may have the effect of ministering grace. That is edifying other people. That which is good for the use of edifying, that it may minister grace to hearers, is what Paul says. So, So our goal is to use our mouths as well as the rest of our bodies as servants of God’s purposes. And to minister grace to others is the very proper way to use our power of speech. That’s what he’s talking about there, Gil. I appreciate your call. Thank you. I’m sorry. We’re going to try to take another call or two before we’re out of time. But I hope that’s helpful. Michael in Santa Cruz, California.
SPEAKER 05 :
Hi, Michael. Hi, Steve. Good to hear you on Thanksgiving.
SPEAKER 01 :
Yeah, same to you.
SPEAKER 05 :
So I finally got around to watching the movie Jesus Revolution in the past couple of months. And I wanted to ask you, first of all, you knew Chuck Smith and Lonnie Frisbee?
SPEAKER 01 :
Oh, yeah.
SPEAKER 05 :
Oh, yeah. All right. I was in their church. All right. How accurate was that movie? And specifically, in the movie, it showed Lonnie Frisbee. He was in some type of a tent and evidently healing people or being a conduit for the Holy Spirit to heal people. Did that happen as it was portrayed?
SPEAKER 01 :
Yes, quite so. Calvary Chapel, the Jesus revolution or the Jesus movement began while Calvary Chapel was in a rather small church. And my impression is it was made to house maybe about 300 people, which is not a tiny church, but it’s a relatively small church compared to what it became. And it got packed out. And not just packed out, not just for 300 people, probably more like 800 people were in the church that was built for 300. People were sitting all over on the floors, on the stage. Wherever there was floor space, there were people sitting there until it was a fire marshal’s nightmare. Now, I don’t know if a fire marshal ever came. and threatened or anything, but Chuck knew that they had to get a bigger place. So they got a big circus tent. And I say they, I was there too. We met, I was there in the smaller chapel, then I was there in the circus tent too for two years while they built their bigger building, which is now standing. The circus tent is no longer there. So in the time that I was at Calvert Chapel, they went through three phases. They were in the little chapel, Then they were in the circus tent, and then they were in the big building, which still stands and which they still use. Yeah, Lonnie was more charismatically oriented than Chuck was. Now, Chuck, interestingly, had a Pentecostal background. He was a four-square minister. But he objected to what he thought was extremism in the Pentecostal circles. So when he started the Calvary Chapel that he pastored, he did not encourage extremism. Pentecostal displays. Now, by Pentecostal displays, we’re referring to things like speaking in tongues, prophesying, necessarily working in miracles, praying for the sick, although he didn’t want to forbid that either. What Chuck did is he had what they called an afterglow. After the meeting, people could go behind the stage when others were just mulling around and fellowshipping. And they could be prayed for. If they were sick, someone would lay hands on them and pray for them. If they wanted to be baptized in the Spirit, likewise, someone would lay hands on them. They could speak in tongues. They could prophesy. There would be like a small meeting in the afterglow service, and they could do those things. So Chuck was not opposed to those things, but he, in his Pentecostal background… had felt like those kinds of things tended to dominate the meetings that he thought what was lacking in most churches was Bible teaching. So he wanted the main meetings to be Bible teaching services. Now Lonnie came in. Lonnie preached and Lonnie taught, though he wasn’t really a teacher. He was more of an evangelist. He just preached the gospel mostly. But he also prayed for the sick. And in his meetings, which were on Wednesday nights, he kind of turned them into praying for the sick and praying for the baptism of the Holy Spirit and casting demons out and things like that, which was really what Chuck was not wanting to do. the Calvary Chapel movement to be primarily known for. And so there was some tension, and as the movie indicated, Lonnie and Chuck parted company. Now, they did work together again later. In the movie, Lonnie went off to Florida with Connie, his wife, and then we see no more of him in the movie. However, what did happen when Lonnie went to Florida was, He and his wife eventually broke up. And so he came back to California as a single man and without his wife. And he didn’t come back to Calvary Chapel. He came to Santa Cruz, California, where you are calling from. And I had moved there in the meantime. I was part of the Jesus movement at Calvary Chapel. Then I moved up to Santa Cruz, was part of the movement there. And when Lonnie came back from Florida, he came to our little church and became part of it. So we ministered together there for a while. Then he moved back to Southern California and worked for Calvary Chapel again. But they had some of the same problems, and so he left there and he started working with the Vineyard Movement. So Lonnie bounced around a little bit. But, yeah, was the movie accurate? I would say pretty much. I think if you take out the storyline about Greg Laurie, you’ve got pretty much an accurate movie. The story about Greg Laurie was not quite correct, and I’m not sure why not, because Greg had years ago, maybe 10 years ago, put out a movie about his story that was accurate. It was called Lost Boy. If you want to know the true story of Greg Laurie, get the movie Lost Boy. Greg made that movie himself about his story, and it was accurate, at least so far as I know. I know Greg a little bit. I’m not real close to him. But I’d always heard him give his testimony. It sounded right. But the movie The Jesus Revolution just departed from that storyline completely. For example, in the movie, the recent movie, Greg’s wife, Kath, was his girlfriend, and before either of them were Christians, and she brought him to Calvary Chapel. In real life, he didn’t even know her until he was already converted and in the ministry. He met her at a Bible study he was teaching after he’d been converted. So, I mean, that whole storyline about his girlfriend taking him to Calvary wasn’t true. The way he was converted, he met Lonnie at his high school, or he heard Lonnie preach at his high school, and in the movie they see that, but he doesn’t get converted there. He gets converted later on at a baptism. In real life, when he first encountered Lonnie at the high school, Greg did become a Christian. He got saved. And that was on a Wednesday. And I know that because I was at Lonnie’s meeting that night, and he brought Greg Laurie up on stage and said, this is Greg Laurie. He just got saved today. And he had him give his testimony. So I heard Greg give his testimony the day he got saved at Calvary. So, I mean, the story in the movie about Greg, didn’t follow his life very accurately. His mother, the way his mother was apparently is accurate and so forth, but his storyline to conversion was not. And I don’t know why. I don’t know why Greg didn’t insist on it being done accurately. But if you want the true story of Greg’s life and conversion, you can get it from a movie he made at least 10 years ago, maybe 12 years ago, called Lost Boy. But apart from that, yes, the movie was quite accurate. The baptisms looked very accurate. I was at those baptisms, many of them. And, you know, the actors playing Chuck and Lonnie did pretty well when you consider that they didn’t know them. Although they’re much older, you know. Jonathan Rumi, who played Lonnie, is like 50 years old. Lonnie was 20, you know. So a 50-year-old actor is playing a 20-year-old. But he did a pretty good job. I appreciate your call. Let’s talk to Daniel in Tampa, Florida. Daniel, welcome to The Narrow Path.
SPEAKER 02 :
Thank you, Steve. I’ve got a question about The Lamb’s Book of Life. It’s mentioned several times in Revelation. And 13-8, it seems to imply that names are written in that book before the foundation of the world. And I was wondering what’s your thoughts on that and if it’s connected to elections?
SPEAKER 01 :
Well, it certainly is a subject that is brought up in discussions about election, about predestination, because it does talk about those whose names were not written in the Lamb’s Book of Life from the foundation of the world would be deceived by the beast. And so suggesting that names have been written in the Book of Life from the foundation of the world has led some people to think that God, before the foundation of the world, knowing or deciding who would be saved, wrote their names in the book. Now, there is a warning in Revelation 3 about the danger of having one’s name blotted out of the book of life. In Revelation 3, 5, it says, He who overcomes, Jesus speaking, shall be clothed in white garments, and I will not blot out his name from the book of life. Now, I will not blot it out if you overcome. Makes it sound very much like if you aren’t an overcomer, then your name could be blotted out of the book of life. And by the way, in Exodus chapter 32, the word book of life is not used, but when the people had sinned with the golden calf, God threatened to wipe them out and make a new people out of Moses himself. And Moses interceded to prevent that from happening. And so God accommodated him. But in Exodus 32-33, the Lord said to Moses, Whomever has sinned against me, I will blot him out of my book. Now, one could argue God’s book here is not the same as the book of life, though it’s not sure why we would make a distinction. God said, whoever has sinned against me, meaning who worshiped the golden calf in that case, I will blot him out of my book. And Moses actually said, Lord, if you don’t forgive him, then blot me out of your book. So the idea that somebody’s name can be in God’s book and can be blotted out, as implied in Revelation 3, 5. But if indeed you can have your name blotted out, then your name being written in in the first place must not mean that you are guaranteed salvation. I suspect possibly that a person’s name is written in the book possibly when they’re born. And then, you know, when they get past the age of accountability, if they go astray from God, as most people do, then their name is removed. And if they come back to God, I believe their name can be added again.
SPEAKER 02 :
So not before the foundation of the earth?
SPEAKER 01 :
Well, I have to say, with the music playing, I can weasel out of this one because I’ll be cut off here in 20 seconds. But that’s a very difficult question. But if you go to Matthew713.com, look up that question, and you can find other times I’ve answered on the air. Right now I’m looking at it. It’s unforgiving.
SPEAKER 06 :
Yeah.
SPEAKER 01 :
All right.
SPEAKER 06 :
God bless you.
SPEAKER 01 :
Thanks for your call. If you’re listening to The Narrow Path, our website is thenarrowpath.com.
