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In this engaging episode of The Narrow Path, listeners are invited into the heart of a series of enlightening conversations. From deciphering the enigmatic prophecies and debating theological doctrines with rabbinic perspectives, to opening discussions on the role of spiritual warfare in the Christian journey, host Steve Gregg offers insight, clarity, and thoughtful responses to each query. This episode is a rich tapestry of discussions, revealing how historical, theological, and practical aspects of faith converge and impact believers today.
SPEAKER 1 :
Thank you.
SPEAKER 02 :
Good afternoon and welcome to the Narrow Path radio broadcast. My name is Steve Gregg and we’re live for an hour each weekday, including this week, which includes New Year’s Day on Thursday. We’ll still be live, so you never have to wonder, at least not this week, whether we’ll be in studio and ready to take your calls. We are today, and if you have questions about the Bible or the Christian faith you’d like to bring up for conversation here on the program, That’s why we do the program live, so that you can do that. If you’re listening to a recorded program, some radio stations simply don’t have the live programming slot available for us. They play the program later. Just know the program is live from 2 to 3 in the afternoon Pacific time. If you’re on the East Coast, that would be, of course, 5 to 6 Eastern time. But from 2 to 3 Pacific time, and we take calls from all over the country, actually from all over the world, and we’ve been taking these calls daily for 28 years. Glad to have you join us. If you want to call with any questions you have or any disagreement you have with the host, we always welcome those kinds of calls as well. The number to call is 844-484-5737. Now, we have two lines open right now, so feel free to give me a call, 844- Our first caller today is Dwight in Denver, Colorado. Hi, Dwight. Welcome to The Narrow Path. Thanks for calling.
SPEAKER 04 :
Thank you, Steve. I was under the understanding that the 70 years of exile in Babylon went from 586 to 516 BC. Is that correct?
SPEAKER 02 :
That would be the time from the destruction of the temple to the rededication of the temple in the time of Zerubbabel. That’s exactly 70 years. You can begin it somewhere else and end it somewhere else, although those other times you don’t get exactly 70. And so some might say, well, the 70 is approximate. For example, 605. B.C. would be the very beginning of the exile, when Daniel and his friends were taken into exile, but most of the nation of Israel was unaffected. And, you know, you find that what, 586, if I’m not mistaken, would be, maybe I’ve got the wrong number here. I’m not figuring it right. There are three, there’s about three different starting points that people have used. And no one knows exactly the right one. But if you want exactly 70 years, you do, yeah, the time from 586 to 516 would be when the temple was rededicated, and the temple was destroyed in 586.
SPEAKER 04 :
Okay, so maybe that’ll clear up this confusion, because Cyrus’ decree was, what, 538 B.C., and so he released, he allowed the Jews to go back So they wouldn’t have even been in there for 70 years if they left in 586.
SPEAKER 02 :
Right, the exact period of time that they were in Babylon from the very beginning. taking of Jerusalem in 586, there were three waves of exile. The first was in 605 B.C. when Daniel and his friends and some others were taken captive. Then a few years later, I think it was 11 years later in 597 B.C., that’s when Ezekiel and others were taken into captivity with Jehoiakim, I believe. And then it was again later, 586 B.C., is when Jerusalem was absolutely destroyed, the temples burned down, and the rest of the Jews were taken captive. Now, people have tried to begin the captivity from each of those starting points, and then finding the end 70 years later is not the easiest thing in the world. But, of course, if you start it at 605, the earliest possible date, and end in 539, then you’ve got, what, 60, what is it, 66 years or something like that, so it’s kind of close. But there are other calculations. Yeah, if you take it right from 586 to 538 or 539, when Cyrus’ decree was, then you’ve only got 40-something years. But the 70 apparently measures from earlier or ends later than that date.
SPEAKER 04 :
Okay. Okay, that’s my confusion. I see now because of the three different times when they left.
SPEAKER 02 :
Yes, and that is confusing because, of course, Jeremiah 25 specifically gives us that number, 70 years, says this whole land shall be a desolation and an astonishment, and these nations shall serve the king of Babylon 70 years. It’s possible that since, I mean, there’s a sense in which they were serving the king of Babylon beginning in 605 because he came and took whoever he wanted captive and went home. He didn’t destroy the city, but they came under his power. But he did absolutely make it a devastation, as Jeremiah says, in 586 B.C., and it may be considered that they were still, even though they came back from Babylon in 538, 539 B.C., They didn’t have the temple yet until 516, and that could be what it’s referring to. They’re still kind of under captivity to the pagans until their temple is rebuilt and they’re worshiping God again.
SPEAKER 04 :
Yeah, yeah. That makes sense. Okay. All right. That clears it up. I appreciate it.
SPEAKER 02 :
Okay, Dwight. God bless, man.
SPEAKER 04 :
You too. Bye-bye. Bye now.
SPEAKER 02 :
Okay. John in Inglewood, Florida. Welcome to The Narrow Path. Thanks for calling.
SPEAKER 07 :
Hey, thanks, Steve. First, I’d just like to mention real quick about a lady that called you yesterday concerning Abraham. And I just wanted to say that in the book of Jasher, Chapter 8, that whole chapter is about Abraham before God selected him. So I thought she might be interested in seeing that with her husband.
SPEAKER 02 :
Okay, but Jasher’s not in the Bible, so, I mean. No, no, she definitely isn’t, yeah. And Jasher is not necessarily an inspired book. Go ahead.
SPEAKER 07 :
No, that’s true, too. It’s interesting. That’s all I meant to say was. Do you have the literal word Bible and lexicon app on your phone? No. Well, if you get that, that is something else because if you get it, you just touch any word on it and it brings up the Greek automatically. That’s right. I’m just touching it. Yeah.
SPEAKER 02 :
It’s called what? The literal word? What? Literal what? Literal.
SPEAKER 07 :
The literal word Bible and Mexico.
SPEAKER 02 :
Okay.
SPEAKER 07 :
Okay. And like I said, you just touch any word on it and it brings up the Greek.
SPEAKER 02 :
That sounds convenient.
SPEAKER 07 :
Yeah, it’s very nice. Okay, and I was going to question about Revelation, but I saw a debate last night between a Pastor Michael Williams from Australia and a Rabbi Tovia Singer. Have you ever heard of him?
SPEAKER 02 :
I have some works by Tovia Singer. Yeah, he’s a very strong opponent of Messianic Judaism.
SPEAKER 07 :
Yeah, he pretty well dismantled Michael Williams, this Pastor Michael Williams. This guy, that’s what he does. He does like 200 lectures a year traveling all around the world to dispute Christianity. He’s actually converting people to Judaism. you know uh college kids and everything else he’s really got that’s his mission he’s actually you know a missionary for judaism and you dismantled um dr brown with no problem at all i mean he wasn’t ready for you at all you know you’re you were beyond that and i was just thinking that this tovia guy you know he he has he heads up what’s called a um outreachjudaism.org And he invites anybody to call him and get on his show or debate him or anywhere in the world. And I’m thinking, Steve, you’re the guy that needs to do this.
SPEAKER 02 :
Well, I wouldn’t mind. I actually have a book of his I’ve read some of where he tries to dismantle the Messianic arguments. The problem is that he doesn’t have the same presuppositions we do. And that’s the problem. You see, what he points out is that when Messianic Jews or when Christians quote something from the Old Testament, we sometimes are giving it a meaning that is Messianic, which the Jews in the context would not have seen there. And he’s right. That’s often the case. The problem is we believe that Jesus rose from the dead and that he’s the Messiah. And, you know, even quite apart from that, most of the prophecies that we believe he fulfilled. I mean, there’s certainly a handful or more, maybe a dozen or more, maybe 20 or more prophecies that Jesus did fulfill, and there’s not really much reason to question it. But when Christians say Jesus fulfilled 300 prophecies of the Old Testament, what we’re saying is, seen through the Christian lens, we see Jesus in there. And the reason we see it that way is because Christ and his apostles teach us to see it there. Now, the real question becomes, where do you get this Christian lens? Because the Jews don’t have that Christian lens. Now, Paul… acknowledge that the Jews don’t have that Christian lens. In 2 Corinthians 3, he said when they read the Old Testament, there’s a veil over their mind. There’s a veil over their heart. They can’t see it. They don’t understand it until they turn to Christ. Well, we have turned to Christ, and therefore the veil is removed, and we can see things. Now, of course, some would say, but isn’t that kind of special pleading? You’re kind of circular reasoning. You believe Jesus is the Messiah because of the prophecies, and you believe the prophecies are about him because he said so. Well, that’s not really it. I believe in Jesus because he rose from the dead and validated everything he said. Rabbi Singer does not believe that Jesus rose from the dead. And that can be investigated as a separate historical issue. And once it is, with objectivity. There’s no other explanation for the facts, the facts of the empty tomb, the facts of the people seeing him, touching him, talking with him after he died and after he’d risen. The facts point in the direction of the resurrection of Christ. And besides that, because he resurrected, he’s still alive. And I personally have encountered him, as have billions of other Christians. So, in other words, I don’t need all 300 prophecies to be about him in order to validate him. Now, once he has been validated by the objective facts of history, well, then, of course, what he had to say, if he is valid, what he has to say is quite authoritative. And it says in Luke 24, I think it’s verse 45, that Jesus said he opened the disciples’ understanding that they might understand the scriptures. Remember, Paul said the Jews, when they read those scriptures, they don’t see them because they’re a veil over their heart. Rabbi Tovia certainly has that veil over his heart. Jesus referred to the rabbis, who were the same people we’re talking about. He called them blind leaders of the blind. Now, here’s where we’ve got a bit of a difference in starting point. He assumes Jesus is not the Messiah, and therefore he doesn’t need any assistance from Christ in seeing what the Old Testament says. We believe Jesus is the Messiah, and we have objective reasons for believing that that have that don’t depend entirely on fulfilled prophecy. Now, fulfilled prophecy is important. And like I said, there’s certainly several hands full of prophecies about Jesus, about the Messiah, that are pretty clearly messianic and fulfilled by Jesus. But most of the prophecies that we recognize, as we know about Jesus, we recognize because they were fulfilled. in types and shadows in the old testament and and christ opened the understanding of his disciples to recognize their meaning now we can’t expect rabbi tovia or any other non-believing rabbi to accept those interpretations of those prophecies there’s a veil over their minds but if he would turn to christ simply on the basis of objective reality of the resurrection of christ Well, then his eyes could be open to it. Now, to debate somebody like that, to debate somebody who’s wearing a blindfold can be a frustrating thing because you’re going to say, well, this scripture means that. He’s going to say, no, it doesn’t mean that. Okay, well, how do we break the tie here? Well, by the authority of Jesus. Well, but he doesn’t accept the authority of Jesus. I do. What are we going to do then? You know, so this makes it kind of an exercise in frustration to deal with somebody who’s rejecting Christ. And, you know, because he is a rabbi, he can state what the rabbinic ideas are about those very verses that we use, and they They make it not be about the Messiah but about Israel or something like that. And, you know, but they’re not saying what we’re saying.
SPEAKER 07 :
Why is it that these Jews or these rabbis like that cannot seem to get it in their heads that God completely destroyed, obliterated, blew out of the water everything about Judaism? Why can’t they understand that? Something’s wrong here. Why don’t they get that?
SPEAKER 02 :
It does seem like the destruction of the temple in 70 A.D. and the absolute destruction of Judaism, therefore. in AD 70 should mean something to them it should maybe send a signal to them hey maybe we’re missing something here if Moses and if God through Moses gave us this covenant and this covenant required to offer animal sacrifices on a regular basis and we have to have a day of atonement once a year and we have to have Passover in Jerusalem and we have to have these festivals in Jerusalem but we don’t and the temple isn’t there anymore so we can’t yeah you yeah now they could say well that happened that happened in uh also in 586 bc when god let the temple be destroyed true but he had it rebuilt again 70 years later as he predicted he would however the destruction of the temple in 70 a.d there is no prediction of it being rebuilt again and it’s been 2 000 years you know you might get the impression that 70 years was a warning. 2,000 years sounds kind of permanent. But, you know, I’ll tell you, you say, why can’t they see it? Well, besides the fact there’s a veil over their eyes, they’re like everybody else. It’s easier to go along with what you were raised believing. And especially once you have become a teacher, and especially if you become a defender, a public defender of what you were taught from your youth, your ego gets kind of involved. I mean, I’d have to tell you this. It would be very hard for me as someone who’s been teaching Christianity for 70 years, 50 something years, 55 years. It’d be hard for me to come out on the radio and say, you know, I’ve been looking at this differently now. I don’t think it’s true. Now, I’ll tell you this. If the evidence was there, I’d have to do that. You know, an honest person has to do that. Thankfully, the evidence is all the other way. All the evidence is on my side, so I’m pretty secure. And the more evidence I see, the more so it is. But honestly, it’s hard when you’ve been publicly defending a certain position against its rival for years. And Tovia Singer has been doing that his whole career, is refuting Messianic Jewish claims. Well… It’s going to take a big hit to his ego to have to say, you know what, my whole decades-long career has been based on my blindness. I now see the truth. Go ahead.
SPEAKER 07 :
Common sense, doesn’t that tell you that in this day and age, trying to sacrifice animals, you know, in a temple where they, you know, the whole world knows you’re killing animals in that temple. In this day and age, I just don’t think that’s going to fly.
SPEAKER 02 :
Well, it’s true that Peter wasn’t around back in the days before 70 A.D. to complain about the animal sacrifices. But I don’t think the Jews would worry about that. In fact, there are a lot of Jews. Not a lot. There’s some. It’s a very, very tiny percentage of the Jewish people in Israel who actually hope to rebuild the temple and hope to restore animal sacrifices. They know very well it would be politically incorrect in these days of animal rights. On the other hand, of course, they could argue for us to slaughter these animals and shed their blood and burn their bodies, how is that different than a slaughterhouse where you’re killing animals and cooking them and eating them and so forth? How is it different from the standpoint of the animal? Of course, modern people don’t think very clearly. In this respect, the Jews, I think, would be thinking more clearly than modern people do. If they said, hey, if it was ever okay to offer sacrifices, why wouldn’t it be at any other time? like now? Of course, the answer is because animal sacrifices are defunct, not because PETA has come along to protest it, but because Jesus has died and brought an end to the need for it. So anyway, yeah, you know, I wouldn’t mind having a conversation with Singer, but I really wouldn’t hold up much hopes of getting anywhere with him. And And, you know, I might consider it, but, again, talking to somebody that the Bible itself says there’s a veil over their mind so they can’t see it until they turn to the Lord, you know, that sounds like a fool’s errand. All right. Hey, brother, I need to take another call. God bless you. Danny in New Rochelle, New York, welcome. Thank you.
SPEAKER 05 :
How are you? Good.
SPEAKER 02 :
Good.
SPEAKER 05 :
Yes, Steve. I want to ask you actually from, you know, I want to ask you based on the book of Matthew, you know Matthew, right? When Jesus talks about the end of the age, right? The end of the age.
SPEAKER 02 :
I’m sorry, what did he talk about? What?
SPEAKER 05 :
When he talks about the end of the age. The end of the age?
SPEAKER 02 :
Matthew 8?
SPEAKER 05 :
The end of the age.
SPEAKER 02 :
What’s your question?
SPEAKER 05 :
Yeah, my question is based on Matthew chapter 24. So I want to ask you, you know, the rapture. Some people believe in a rapture, some don’t. But, you know, because some people say that Jesus will come again in a rapture as saints and believers. But it says in Matthew chapter 24, verse 9, They shall deliver you up to be afflicted and shall kill you, and you shall be hated of all nations for my name’s sake. So is the rapture going to happen?
SPEAKER 02 :
Well, okay. I hear you. Yeah, for those people who are looking for the rapture to rescue them out of hardship, when it does say, you’re right, it does say in verse 9, talking to the disciples of Jesus, they will deliver you up to tribulation. and kill you, and you’ll be hated by all nations for my namesake. If we’re hoping the rapture will take us away before any of that happens, it’s already too late. This has been going on ever since the time of the apostles to this present day. You go almost anywhere other than the Western world, and increasingly even in the Western world, and you find Christians are hated by all men, or by many men, by many nations. Christians certainly have faced a lot of tribulation. They’ve been martyred. It is argued by many, statistically, that there were more martyrs in the 20th century than in all centuries combined previous to that. I don’t know how the tally is running in the 21st century, but we’re only 25 years into it, but there’s no let-up. There’s no let-up of persecution. We’ve heard, what, 7,000 Christians in Nigeria have been killed this year by by Muslims. I don’t remember 7,000 or more than that. Anyway, this is going on. It’s always been going on. It’s too late for the rapture to come and rescue the church from that kind of treatment. The church is facing it for the past 2,000 years. It’s very hard to know how any future tribulation could be worse. than what many, many Christians have faced for the past 2,000 years or are facing right now in many countries that you and I have never visited. Christianity has always experienced this. So, yeah, there’s no hope that the rapture will come and take us away from that. Now, you say some people don’t believe in the rapture. What you mean is some people don’t believe in the pre-tribulational rapture. that’s the view that there’s a special period of tribulation coming. Some say it’s three and a half years. Some say it’s seven years. But that’s a period of special tribulation, they believe, is coming at the end of the age. And they hope and believe that Jesus will take the church away before that time so we won’t have to go through that tribulation. There’s nothing in the Bible that predicts that at all. I mean, that is any escape from tribulation. As you pointed out, Matthew 24 is one of the two places in the Bible that mentions the tribulation. Matthew 24 and verse 21 says, Okay, so this is one of the two places in the Bible that mentions the great tribulation. And it’s in the same chapter that Jesus said, you know, you’ll be delivered up to tribulation and murdered and so forth. So certainly there’s no teaching of a preacher of rapture here. The only other place that there’s a mention of a great tribulation, using those terms, is in Revelation chapter 7 and verse 14, where it says of a group of people, an innumerable group of people that John sees in heaven, it says these are those who are coming up out of the great tribulation. Okay, so as John was writing, these people were coming up out of the great tribulation, he said. Now, those are the only two places in the Bible that mention the Great Tribulation. So there’s nothing there. I mean, these people are apparently being saved out of it through death, probably. It says they’ve washed their robes in the blood of the Lamb and so forth. Yeah, there’s nothing in the Bible about a pre-trib rapture. But that doesn’t mean there’s no rapture, because the rapture simply refers… to what Paul talks about in 1 Thessalonians 4, verses 16 and 17. He says that the dead in Christ will rise when Jesus comes back, and then we who are alive and remain, at the same time, apparently, will come to rise to meet him in the air. So when Jesus comes back, he’s going to raise the dead, and he’s going to raise the Christian alive. And the second part is called the rapture. The first part is called the resurrection. That is taught in the Bible in all Christians throughout history, for the most part, believe that. What is not believed by everybody is that this rapture that is described there is somehow going to happen before Jesus comes back. This is problematic, of course, because Paul said it’s going to happen when Jesus descends from heaven with a shout and the voice of the archangel. and the trumpet of God, and this sounds like it’s the second coming. Also in 2 Thessalonians 1.8, Paul said that God’s going to give us rest from our trials when Jesus comes in flaming fire, taking vengeance on those who don’t know God. Okay, so that’s not a secret rapture seven years before the end. That’s when Jesus comes in flaming fire, taking vengeance on those who don’t know God. So that’s when we will enter into our rest, Paul says in 2 Thessalonians 1.8. So there’s really nothing in the Bible to encourage a pre-tribulation rapture, but there are certainly references to Christ raising the dead and raising the living as it’s coming. So that’s how I understand it. I don’t think Matthew 24 is talking about that, but let’s just say if it was, it’s not supportive of a pre-trib rapture. I also don’t believe it’s supportive of a pre-trib rapture, though I think it’s about something else. I think it’s about AD 72. Hey, I appreciate your call, Danny, and we’ve got to take a break at this point. We’re going to have another half hour coming up in about a minute. We’re going to take more calls. We have two lines open right now. If you want to call and get in line, the number is 844-484-5737. We are listener supported. You can write to us at The Narrow Path, P.O. Box 1730, Temecula, California, 92593. Or you can go to our website, thenarrowpath.com. Everything’s free there. You can donate there if you wish at thenarrowpath.com. I’ll be right back. Don’t go away. We have another half hour.
SPEAKER 01 :
If you’ve been listening to The Narrow Path for very long, you know how much it has enhanced your study and understanding of Scripture and possibly your whole Christian life. Don’t you think all your friends should benefit from the program as you have? You help to partner with us in impacting the body of Christ when you tell all your friends to listen to The Narrow Path. If you have not done so, visit the website thenarrowpath.com and discover all that is available for your learning pleasure.
SPEAKER 02 :
Welcome back to The Narrow Path Radio Broadcast. My name is Steve Gregg, and we’re live for another half hour taking your calls. If you’d like to call in with any questions you wish to discuss on the air about the Bible or the Christian faith, we welcome you to do so. The number is 844-484-5737. There’s one line open right now at 844-484-5737. Our next caller today is Michael in Englewood, California. Michael, welcome to The Narrow Path. Thanks for calling.
SPEAKER 03 :
Hi, Steve. I’m calling because I’ve been witnessing to someone online, and they seem to be a believer, and they also kind of seem to be in kind of poor in spirit. I can’t really say what that is, but they seem to be poor in spirit, but they live with their baby’s dad. They don’t really believe in marriage because they said it’s kind of like, you know, just a paper, and then It always ends in divorce. So my question is not necessarily towards them, but it has to do with Matthew 5.3 and 1 Corinthians 6.9. If someone is poor in spirit, but they say sometimes commit fornication, can they inherit the kingdom of God?
SPEAKER 02 :
Well, as you point out in 1 Corinthians 6.9, it says fornicators will not inherit the kingdom of God. This refers, of course, to unrepentant fornicators because very many people who are saved and serving God and no doubt destined to inherit the kingdom of God at one time in their life, before they were Christians, were fornicators. But a Christian has given up on those things and is no longer committing them. And those who don’t give up on those things are simply not going to have a place of inheritance in the kingdom of God, Paul said. Now, as far as the poor in spirit idea, which comes from Matthew 5, 3, blessed are the poor in spirit, theirs is the kingdom of heaven. This is the first of eight Beatitudes in Matthew 5. The Beatitudes are those statements that begin, Blessed are such and such people because of such and such result that they will have. You can’t take any of these Beatitudes by themselves. They are a composite drawing of a disciple, of somebody whose heart is right toward God. And so, you know, poor in spirit refers, no doubt, to being very humble about oneself, humble enough to realize that they’ve got nothing to commend them to God, like a beggar. They’re poor. Spiritually, they’re poor. They’re like beggars. They cannot give anything they have only to receive. That attitude is poverty of spirit. And it certainly is a good starting point. for becoming a disciple of Jesus. But there are other features of being followers of Jesus, including those who mourn, presumably over their sin, although maybe they’re mourning because they do not love this present world and they long to be with God. There are people who, the next qualification is they’re meek. They hunger for righteousness. They’re merciful. They are pure in heart. They are peacemakers. And they are persecuted for righteousness. Now, that’s the composite drawing of the disciple. To say that somebody seems poor in spirit, we might say, well, they’re kind of maybe they’re at step one. These aren’t actually eight steps that you take sequentially. They’re more like a composite drawing. But still, they’ve got one feature. That’s to their credit in the sense that if we’re hoping that they will be true disciples, this is one thing that would have to be present, and they have that one thing. But does she hunger and thirst for righteousness? Is she pure in heart? You know, being poor in spirit would also be humble enough to recognize that I don’t know, you know, which way is up. I don’t know my right hand from my left, spiritually speaking. I’m just, I got nothing. I better just listen to somebody who knows more, someone like Jesus, someone like God, you know. If somebody says, yeah, well, God said I can’t fornicate, so, yeah, but I think better. I know better. It’s okay. I’m going to do it anyway. God says, I won’t inherit the kingdom of heaven if I fornicate, but I know better. I know better than God about this. I know that I can fornicate and inherit the kingdom of God. Well, all I can say, whatever else I can say about that person is that they’re not poor in spirit. They’re not humble. Anyone who thinks they know better than God is the opposite of humble. Now, you know, when someone argues, well, we live in fornication, You know, I would consider marriage, except marriages always break up. It’s just a piece of paper. Well, that’s lame. That’s a lame excuse because marriages don’t break up. just by themselves. Marriages break up when one or both parties decide to give up on the marriage. Now, a person can’t really guarantee that their spouse will stay in the marriage because that’s up to their spouse to decide. But they can certainly decide that they will stay in the marriage. They can be righteous in the sight of God. If they’re abandoned by an unfaithful spouse, well, that’s not on them, assuming they’re doing what their part is. They’re keeping their promise to God. But to make no promise to God because you’re afraid it has to be broken. No, that’s not true. You don’t have to break your promise to God. I’ve never broken my promise to my wife. We’ve been married many, many years. I won’t break my promise. We got married. I made pledges. I made vows. Those are not going to be broken. How do I know? Because that’s up to me. And I’ve decided that won’t happen. It’s not like it just happens to people. People break up their marriages. They break their vows. Because they just decide to do it. And that’s something they didn’t have to decide to do. If they say, well, my marriage was awfully hard and this other person was so caring and so forth, what could I do? Well, you could have kept your promises to your spouse. That’s one thing you could have done. In fact, it’s the least you could have done. Because that’s what marriage is. It’s a value you make on the side of God that you’re going to stay with that person faithful. Now, if you don’t do it, you’re just a perjurer. You’re just a betrayer. Now, you might say, yeah, you don’t know my spouse. They’re the ones worse than me. Well, they may be worse than you. You don’t have to be as bad as they are. You can be righteous when someone else is not. So to say, well, I’m not going to get married. I’m just going to live with this person because marriage just ends in divorce. I’ll tell you this. If you get married and end in divorce, that’s a sin. But that’s not guaranteed. That is to say, you might not get a divorce. Most people do not. When people say 50% of marriages end in divorce, that doesn’t mean it’s a 50-50 chance you’ll get divorced. Because the people I know don’t divorce at a rate of 50%. Some people do. Let’s just put it this way. If the statistics shows, and I don’t believe it does. I think statistics show otherwise something more optimistic. But let’s just take it for the sake of argument. Let’s say the statistics show that 50% of marriages end in divorce. That doesn’t mean that you, if you get married, have a 50% chance of being divorced because a lot of those divorces in that statistic are the same people getting divorced over and over again. The chances of you getting divorced if you are a faithful spouse and you marry somebody who’s a faithful spouse, the chances of getting divorced is essentially zero because faithful people don’t get divorced. The real issue is do I choose to be faithful? Am I going to marry somebody who chooses to be faithful? If so, the chance of divorce in my case is going to be zero. Somebody else gets married and divorced five times, and that makes the statistic go way up. There’s a lot of divorces. But it’s the same people getting them. It’s people who do not have any character. It’s people who don’t have… willingness to keep their promises. You don’t have to be one of those. So marriages don’t just end. Now, I will say this. Marriages sometimes end even when you’re totally keeping your promises because your spouse may not do so. And that is simply making a case for marrying somebody who’s got tried and true character and someone who keeps their promises. And again, you do that. And you’re not going to get a divorce. If you don’t, and they won’t, it’s not like just some kind of a haze comes down and suddenly a divorce happens. No, people make choices. They’re real people. We have responsibility for our choices. We can keep our promises. We can break our promises. And we will do one or the other depending if we’re a liar. Or a truth teller. That’s really basic. You can be honest or dishonest. If you’re honest, you keep your promises. If you’re dishonest, you might not. So, you know, it doesn’t make any sense for her to say, well, you know, we’re going to live in fornication. Because although we could get married, I don’t believe marriage is good because divorces happen too often. Well, you know, divorces, let’s just say the statistic that everyone hears is true. I don’t think it is, but let’s say 50% of marriages end in divorce. Okay, in that case, there’s a 50% chance you will not be in sin because your marriage will last. And even if your marriage doesn’t last, you can have 100% assurance that you won’t be in sin because you won’t wreck your marriage. Someone else might, and that’s on them, not you. But if you’re living in fornication, that’s 100% on you. And it’s a guarantee that you’re doing what the Bible says will prevent you from inheriting the kingdom of God. So, I mean, you can do what you want to do. But anyone who says, yeah, well, I’m just not going to go the way God says to go. because I’m pretty sure I know better about this whole subject. Now, anyone who says that, Michael, is not poor in spirit, no matter how humble they seem in other respects. Thanks for your call. Let’s see, Jesse in Aliso Viejo, California. I didn’t say that right. I’m not very good at speaking Spanish. Hi, Jesse. Welcome. Well, maybe I won’t have to. Jesse, are you there? Looks like Jesse’s not there, so we’ll take Josiah from San Diego, California. Josiah, welcome.
SPEAKER 05 :
This call will be recorded.
SPEAKER 06 :
I wanted to get your thoughts.
SPEAKER 02 :
Hello? Yeah, we were told this call will be recorded. I could have told you that. Every call was recorded. Go ahead.
SPEAKER 06 :
I wanted to share an experience with you I had a couple of weeks ago. I’ve been an alcoholic my whole life pretty much, and I recently decided to start fighting this temptation that I’ve always had, and I went a couple of weeks without it, and I was asleep in the middle of the night, and I thought I heard my daughter yell my name, and I opened my eyes, and I couldn’t speak or move. There’s two dark figures standing at my feet, one shorter and one taller, and they were just pointing at the door, and I was wondering, would you say that that could be a demonic attack?
SPEAKER 02 :
Well, it could. I mean, you could certainly see demons in your dreams. I do believe that some dreams can be inspired by demons, just like some dreams can be inspired by God. I believe that most dreams are not inspired either by God or by demons, but there are examples, certainly of the former. in the Bible, where God inspires dreams. And I personally think there’s also examples in human experience of demons doing the same. I think most dreams don’t come from either of those sources, probably just come from our own brains when we’re sleeping. But on the other hand, it’s interesting that you describe two dark figures, one taller, one shorter. There’s a very famous case of a demon-possessed girl in Manila, Philippines, back in the 50s. It was, in fact, so remarkable that it got written up internationally in the international news, including Life magazine, though it happened in Manila. And that was a girl whose mother was into witchcraft, and she herself was into witchcraft and a prostitute. She became demon-possessed. These demons were biting her and tearing at her in places that she could not do it to herself. And they put her in protective custody in prison, and these things kept happening to her. And she said that she kept seeing these two figures, two dark figures, one tall and one short. which were demonic. And there was a missionary in the Philippines at the time who went, got permission to see her, and he cast the demons out of her, and she was delivered, and these figures went away. I’m not saying your situation is the same because it doesn’t sound like you’ve got quite the same manifestations going on, so I’m not saying you’re demon-possessed. She was. But that she described the figures similarly is interesting. But, yeah, I’d be open to the idea this could be demonic. I don’t think that we can say that the reason that a person is an alcoholic or the reason a person is struggling with some other sin is because they’re demon-possessed. Frankly, I think demon possession in the Bible doesn’t actually, not usually associated with sinful behavior that is recorded. There’s a lot of demon-possessed people in the Bible. but we’re never really told very much about their sins. We’re told about their afflictions. They’re bent over and can’t stand up. They’re blind and dumb until the demons are cast out, or they’re just maniacs, you know, crazy. So, you know, I wouldn’t necessarily associate alcoholism with demons, though that doesn’t mean I’m wrong. I’m right. Demons could have some measure of control that they gain over a person through alcoholism.
SPEAKER 06 :
their abusive substances like alcohol do you think that they do you think that they have the power to to mute and paralyze you because that’s what i experienced and it wasn’t a dream i opened my eyes and i saw them and i could have sworn that i heard my daughter’s voice and and it was that’s what that’s what woke me up and then and then i couldn’t move or speak and then uh several seconds later i i could i snapped out of it and obviously they were gone are you uh are you a follower of christ Yeah, well, I haven’t been living like it, but yes.
SPEAKER 02 :
Well, you should be living like it because following Christ is something you do. It’s not something you just say. If you’re a follower of Christ, that means you’re following his teachings. You’re living your life with him as your Lord. That’s the only way you can be secure from demons. I mean, not everybody who is a non-Christian… is demon-possessed, certainly. That’s a more rare situation than unbelief is. But the only security that one has from demonic power is to be in Christ and to be a follower of Christ. And it’s not enough to say, yeah, I’m a follower of Christ, I just don’t live like it. No, if you don’t live like it, you’re not following him, because that’s what following him is.
SPEAKER 06 :
No, I understand that.
SPEAKER 02 :
The reason I say this is because demonic forces may be seeking your soul, and the only safety you will find, if that is the case, will be by being devoted to Christ. You asked if demons can paralyze you. If you mean in your sleep or in bed, this is a very common experience. I’ve heard it probably… Honestly, I’ve probably heard it 30 to 50 times in my 55 years of ministry. I’ve heard different people have this experience where they’re in bed. They get temporary paralysis. They feel, in many cases, there’s weight on top of them as if someone’s laying on top of them, but there’s no one really there. They sometimes feel hands around their throat choking them. These kinds of things are pretty common experiences. And in the cases I know where the people have cried out to Jesus, that was the relief that came to them. And the demons left. I’m not saying they never came back. But, you know, I’ve had uncounted numbers of people. And I know if I counted them, they’d be in the scores of people who have told me they’ve had this particular experience in their sleep. Something is weighing on their chest. Something’s maybe got its hands around their neck. There’s nothing there. There’s no one there visible. They’re, you know, they’re choking out. And they call out on Jesus and the attack goes away. So I consider this to be a fairly commonplace thing to happen. But I don’t know if it happens to Christians or people who are totally devoted to Christ. Maybe because a Christian, of course, can come under temptation and attack from the enemy. But certainly the only relief from such attack or only guarantee of liberty is to be a follower of Christ.
SPEAKER 06 :
I thought we had an account or two of Christians being possessed in Scripture.
SPEAKER 02 :
I think there could be. There could be. We’re not always told in Scripture whether people were Christians on the occasions when we find demons cast out of them. There are cases both in the Gospels and in the Book of Acts of exorcisms of demons, and it’s not always told us whether the victim who was delivered was a believer or not. so it’s not really stated now there are people who say that Christians cannot be demon possessed and they have their list of proof texts I used to have that list of proof texts, too, until I read those texts in context and realized they didn’t say that. So I do not say that Christians can never be possessed. But I will say that whether Christians are possessed or not, Christians can be attacked. Christians can be afflicted. Christians can need to put on the full armor of God and fight the warfare and wrestle against evil. principalities and powers and so forth. I mean, there’s a spiritual warfare. That’s what this life is. So, yeah, I’m not able to say with certainty whether a Christian can be actually possessed by demons. Again, there are people who take a very strong stand that that’s not possible. but I’m not able to take that strong a stand because I’ve looked at those scriptures more than once, and I’ve seen the context. Anyway, what you need definitely is to be totally devoted to Christ and to follow him, and if this thing happens, just call out on the Lord. Call out to Christ, and his power is greater is he who’s in you than he who is in the world, it says in 1 John 4.4. Okay. I…
SPEAKER 06 :
I love your work, and I can’t believe you live in California. You must want to be a Jonah and Nineveh.
SPEAKER 02 :
I don’t want to live in California. I have family here that I feel connected to, and I can’t really leave. But, yeah, I’d love to live somewhere else. I grew up here. I was born in California. I was born in Southern California and grew up, but I left when I was 20. I came back when I was like 60. I did. And I’d love to live somewhere else, but I’ve got some family bonds here that I can’t abandon.
SPEAKER 06 :
Well, God bless you, Steve, and thank you very much.
SPEAKER 02 :
Thank you, Josiah. God bless you. Okay, let’s see here. Our next caller is Terrence in Sacramento, California. Hi, Terrence. Welcome.
SPEAKER 08 :
Hi, Steve. Thanks for taking my call. Can you hear me very well?
SPEAKER 02 :
Yes, go ahead, please.
SPEAKER 08 :
Okay, so I hear a lot of statements that you’re making, so… First of all, I’d like to know, where do you lean? Do you lean Arminianism or Calvinism?
SPEAKER 02 :
Well, I don’t mean either of them, but if you ask which of those views I align with, I align more with Arminianism than with Calvinism. Okay, okay.
SPEAKER 08 :
So that answers a lot of my questions. Sure. Because it sounds like you’re a semi-Pelagianist.
SPEAKER 02 :
You could call me that.
SPEAKER 08 :
I know a lot of people won’t understand what I mean by that, but… I know.
SPEAKER 02 :
Yeah, to the Calvinist, to say that one is an Arminian is a very great insult. But it’s even a greater insult to say they’re semi-Pelagian. In fact, to be Pelagian is to be anathema in their mind. Now, to my mind, there’s nothing anathema about being Pelagian or semi-Pelagian or Arminian. But, you know, if they want to call me semi-Pelagian, that’s okay with me.
SPEAKER 08 :
Okay. Well, I hope you’re not offended by me saying that, because there’s a reason why I say that. There’s a reason why I say that, because I am from a church, or I go to a church that is semi-Pelagianist, and there’s a reason why I say that, because there’s a confusion in the beliefs. Because if you believe that God is sovereign, then there’s a lot of statements that Christians make that does not make any sense if you believe that God is sovereign. And whenever I ask that question to a lot of ministers about God’s sovereignty, and I refer them to Romans 9-15, they always have excuses how they find their way around those texts.
SPEAKER 02 :
Well, God is sovereign. The problem is that Calvinists and those who are influenced by Calvinism have never really thought through what the word sovereign means. Because Calvin’s view is that the word sovereign means that if God is sovereign, he meticulously and providentially decrees everything that happens. That’s what the sovereignty of God means to them. Now, the word sovereign doesn’t hold that meaning at all. The word sovereignty has meaning outside of Christian theology. The word sovereign is a king, somebody who has the right to do, to act unilaterally, somebody who is not answerable to some higher authority. He’s not answerable to them. He can do what he wants to because he’s sovereign. Now, the Bible doesn’t actually use the word sovereign anywhere in it, but the word is not a bad word. If a king is sovereign, then God certainly is sovereign. But to say that a king is sovereign only tells us what he has the right to do. It doesn’t tell us what he does do. If I’m sovereign over my home and my family, that means the members of my family should obey me. It doesn’t tell how involved I get in every decision they make. my sovereignty would have to do with my right to make the decisions about things and to enforce them. And God’s sovereignty, of course, since he’s the ultimate sovereign, he has the right to make all these decisions and to enforce them. But the question is not, does he have the right to? The question is, what does he do? Just like, let’s say, two fathers are equally sovereign over their homes. But one has regimented everything that his children do from the time they wake up to the time they go to bed. They’ve got no free time. They do exactly what he ordains for them to do and nothing more. The other father… has scheduled times where the children can do what they want to do. He gives them some responsibilities. He gives them commands and lets them act as they will. If they do badly, then they’ll have to answer for that. But the truth is, he’s not manipulating everything they do every moment. Now, both fathers are equally sovereign, because sovereign just means they have the right to make those decisions. They have the right to make those rules. They have the right to give the orders. They have the right to enforce them. But just because a man has the right to do that doesn’t tell you what kind of a ruler he is. He may be a dictator. He may want to micromanage everything. Or he might not care to do that. If he doesn’t care to do that, for example, if he wants there to be creatures or children in his family that he doesn’t, you know… you know, choreograph every step they make and lets them make some decisions. That’s not a violation of his sovereignty. That’s his sovereign choice. That’s his exercise of sovereignty. If he wants to do that, who can tell him that he can’t? As I read the Bible, God wants to do that. God wants there to be creatures who are unlike the animals. The animals all do what God wants because they’re programmed to. Their instincts always do what God wants them to do. But when God had made all the animals, he said, let’s make something else here. Let’s make man in our own image that is unlike the animals, more like God. And let’s give him dominion over all these other things. Now, when you give someone dominion, that means you’re giving them the position of rulership. Now, a person can’t rule if they don’t make choices. That’s what ruling involves, making choices. So God made humans with a capacity that animals don’t have, and that is to make choices and to rule. The smartest animals, whether it’s the dolphins or apes or whatever, the smartest dogs, they do not make choices like people do. They cannot be put in charge of projects that require decision-making. because that’s not what they’re made for. We are. And therefore, you know, God has sovereignly chosen not to just have in this world a menagerie of pets, but some actual children who have more of his own characteristics and the ability to take over, as it were, the family business from him. Anyway, the word sovereign is not a problem for even a semi-Pelagian like myself, or Armenian. I would say I’m more Armenian. But the point is, All Christians believe in God’s sovereignty. The Calvinists have a problem because they think sovereignty has to mean whatever they define it to mean. And to a Calvinist, God’s sovereignty means meticulous providence, which means everything that happens, he ordained it to happen and made it happen. And they think if he didn’t, then he’s not sovereign. That simply means they haven’t thought very long about what the word sovereign means, nor have they thought very carefully about what the Bible says about God or us. Thanks for your call. You’ve been listening to The Narrow Path. My name is Steve Gregg. We’re listener supported. You can go to our website, thenarrowpath.com, where you’ll find thousands of free lectures you can listen to on any subject, including the whole Bible. But you can donate there, too, at thenarrowpath.com. Thanks for joining us.
