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SPEAKER 1 :
Thank you.
SPEAKER 07 :
Good afternoon and welcome to the Narrow Path Radio Broadcast. My name is Steve Gregg and we’re live for an hour each weekday afternoon taking your calls. If you have questions about the Bible that you’d like to bring up for conversation on the air, I’d be glad to talk to you about those. If you have a difference of opinion from the host, you want to bring that up for conversation, feel free to make a call about that. However, our lines are full right now, so don’t call at this moment. Take this number down, call in a few minutes, and you’ll find that numbers, I should say lines, are opening up at this number all through the hour. So the number is 844-484-5737. Once again, that’s 844-484. 484-5737. All right. Now we’re going to go to the phones and talk to Kevin in Kabul, Missouri. Hi, Kevin. Welcome to The Narrow Path. Thanks for calling.
SPEAKER 12 :
I have been struggling a lot with anxiety over the concept of eternity, and maybe I’m thinking about it too much in human terms, but what are our activities… With the Lord, I mean, would we ever run out of things to do? It’s just been really a lot of turmoil for me.
SPEAKER 07 :
Now, why is that bothering you? Why is that bothering you?
SPEAKER 12 :
I honestly don’t know. Like, it hit me about a month ago, and I’ve just been scared about the uncertainty of, like, I don’t know.
SPEAKER 07 :
Are you afraid that you’ll be bored in heaven or something like that because you’ll run out of things to do?
SPEAKER 12 :
It made me think almost nihilistically, like, oh, what’s the point if we have all the time to do everything, you know?
SPEAKER 07 :
Well, you don’t have all the time to do just what you want. We’re going to be serving God. He’s going to be assigning responsibilities to those that have shown good stewardship responsibility in this life. You know, Jesus told a couple of parables where, you know, the Lord comes back and says to his servants, oh, you are faithful in small things. Let me give you rulership over greater things. And so, I mean, this world is actually the testing to see how we will handle responsibility. He’s given us a responsibility of promoting his kingdom with everything we have, all our time, all our money, all of our gifts. And these are things that we’re stewarding. And we have a short lifetime. If we live really long, we’ll maybe get to 100 years old. But that’s still very short compared to eternity. But it’s only like, it’s kind of like kindergarten. This life would be very much like kindergarten or grammar school or something like that, where we learn our lessons, our basic lessons. And then we can be entrusted with greater responsibilities and greater lessons. And I believe that we’ll be learning and I believe that we’ll be growing and doing responsible things forever. Now, what those things will be, I don’t know because I’m not in that condition yet. The condition we’re in right now is suited for this world. And therefore, we have, of course, tastes and preferences and likes and dislikes that are, you know, suited to our condition as mortals in this world. I don’t know what it will be like to be made immortal, to be made glorious like Christ. I don’t know how, you know, what will bring satisfaction, what will not. But I will guarantee you that no one will be unsatisfied in the presence of God. In fact, I would say this, although I believe that we will spend eternity involved in useful activities, fruitful activities, because God, you know, he’s got a big universe out there that needs to be managed. I don’t know what we’ll all do in it, but he’s got plenty in mind for us to do. So, you know, it’s sort of like if you’re looking for a job and you’re broke and you’re out of work, and somebody says, I’ll give you a job, I’m going to have you managing my company for me. Oh, okay. What do I do day by day? Well, you’ll see. You’ll see how it’s done. You’ll see what needs to be done. But you’ll be in a position of responsibility, and it’ll be well-suited for your abilities and for your tastes, frankly. Well, okay. I’m going to just have to trust that the specifics, once I know them, will be even as God says. Joy, You know, eternal joy, eternal satisfaction. I don’t actually enjoy that in a full measure in this life as I will then. So, and, you know, the Bible says there will be no more suffering, no more pain, no more death, no more crying. Sounds like it’s an improvement over this life. And I wouldn’t be too stressed thinking, oh, my, I don’t know if I’ll like it or not. Well, I mean, I like this life reasonably well, and whatever parts I don’t like are the parts that there won’t be any more of those things anymore. So it looks like it’ll be something we’ll be glad to have. But even if we didn’t, even if we had no idea what we’d be doing or even that we’d be doing anything, the point of wanting to be with God is God. It’s not like, will I be doing something I like as much as I like my work down here? I would say probably more so, but what if you weren’t? You know, if your chief joy is not found in being with God, then, I don’t know, all of your enjoyment sensors need to be recalibrated because I can’t imagine anything. I mean, when we think about God, what are we thinking about here when we talk about God? We’re talking about, you know, he’s bigger than the universe. smarter and more powerful than all things created combined. All joy is found in him. In his right hand are pleasures forevermore. In his presence is fullness of joy. The Bible says, now I can’t imagine what that’s like, but I would say this, that if there was nothing in heaven to await me except God himself, that would be thrilling enough, because frankly, God is thrilling, except to those who don’t really believe in him. People who don’t believe in God do not find him thrilling because it’s hard to get thrilled about something you don’t believe in. But when you know who God is, then the idea of, well, I’ve wanted to go be with him since I was 16. I’ll tell you that. I’ve been eager to see God. In fact, there was a time when I was in my early 20s that somebody told me that someone who hated me had put a contract out on me. Now, I don’t know that he did or didn’t. Nothing came of it if he did. But he was a guy I happen to know well enough that he had connections and malice enough that he could have done it. So I had to take it seriously. And every day when I went out of my house, I realized, OK, this guy made, you know, this may be the day. This may be the day that someone takes me out. I thought, wouldn’t that be great, man? That’d be fantastic. I’d be, you know, one moment I’m here in this dirty world and the next moment I’m facing Jesus himself. What could be more exciting than that? I cannot imagine. And since I’ve been 16, I have never been able to imagine anything greater than that. So when someone says, I don’t know if I really am going to enjoy eternity, I think, do you have the capacity to enjoy anything? If so, you’ll certainly enjoy what God has made for you, because he made you for it, too.
SPEAKER 12 :
Well, thank you very much. I’ll have to… recalibrate my enjoyment. I honestly think this is why it’s happening, to bring me closer to him. Thank you very much.
SPEAKER 07 :
Okay, Kevin. God bless you. I appreciate your call and your concerns. Parker in Atlanta, Georgia. Welcome to The Narrow Path. Thanks for calling.
SPEAKER 03 :
Hey, Steve.
SPEAKER 07 :
Hi there. How are you doing?
SPEAKER 03 :
Good. How are you? I just want to make sure you can hear me. The question I have for you I know we don’t have an answer in Scripture, but I wanted to hear your best guess. When Noah’s Ark landed on Mount Ararat, I believe it was, how do you think kangaroos got to Australia?
SPEAKER 07 :
They probably hopped there. And birds probably flew there, and lots of animals probably walked or ran there. You know, slugs probably slithered there or whatever. You know, I personally suppose that the continents were probably not as distant from each other at that time as they are now. Of course, many people believe that there was, you know, just one supercontinent. There’s even some suggestion that could be interpreted that way in Genesis chapter 1, where when God made dry land appear, it says he gathered all the water into one place, which he called seas. I’m not sure if into one place means specifically there’s only one sea as distinct from the one piece of land that stuck up out of it. But many geologists believe that there was once a supercontinent that broke up and slightly moved. Most people know about continental drift. and that it has caused the continents to be surrounded by and separated by seas. Now, whether this began during the time of the flood, this movement of the earth, I don’t know. We are told during the flood that not only were the windows of heaven open, which simply means the water poured out of the sky, but it also says that the fountains of the great deep were broken up, which sounds like subterranean waters, probably volcanic activity, You know, it may well be that, you know, the tectonic plates began to move a bit during that time. And they may have moved far more rapidly initially than they do now. I mean, I don’t know. I honestly don’t know the answer to this. I’m just imagining. But it’s, to my mind, not hard to picture that at the time of the flood, we start having some movement of the tectonic plates. And probably, as the animals disperse from the ark, Some of them got separated from others eventually as seas began to intervene. Now, even if there were separate continents after the flood immediately, it’s not impossible to postulate different ways that remote, previously uninhabited continents became populated by plants and animals that got there in various ways. I remember when I was a kid reading a story about Krakatoa the volcano I think in the East Indies that blew up and every bit of life on it was killed and of course a lot of life hundreds of miles away was destroyed by a huge volcanic explosion. After the volcano stopped exploding there were no living things on the island but within a very few years there were. There were new plants, there were new animals, amphibians, birds, reptiles, even mammals. And you think, well, how’d they get there? I mean, it’s out in the middle of the ocean. How’d they get there? Various ways. I mean, birds, of course, probably flew there. Some animals are able to swim and do so. But also, it’s not unheard of for animals to be traveled across bodies of water. on rafts that are naturally caused by twisted branches and foliage and stuff floating, like breaking loose from the delta at the Mississippi River or something like that. A bunch of stuff breaks off loose and goes floating out into the sea with animals on it sometimes. So, I mean, I don’t know. I don’t know how far Australia was from the rest of the land mass in the world after the flood. It may not have been very far. But even if it was, there’s modern-day experiences of lands that are totally uninhabited, and then quite naturally they become inhabited again by creatures one way or another, flying, swimming, or floating to them. So I don’t have the answer to your question, but if the question is to imply… There’s no imaginable way in which this could have happened. I’d have to say, well, I can imagine ways that have and that are quite analogous to modern-day situations that are known.
SPEAKER 03 :
Interesting. Thank you, Steve.
SPEAKER 07 :
All right. Hey, thanks for your call. Good talking to you. John in Maine, welcome to The Narrow Path. Thanks for calling.
SPEAKER 09 :
Yeah, thanks. I talked to you a couple of weeks ago about being a premillennialist. What did you say you were?
SPEAKER 07 :
I’m amillennial. What does that mean? Well, it means that the millennium described in Revelation 20 is a symbolic description of the age that we are living in now between the first and the second coming of Christ. That Christ bound Satan at his first coming in the sense that it’s symbolically described in Revelation 20. and that he will come back and destroy Satan and the wicked at his second coming, which in Revelation 20 and verse 9 is depicted as fire from heaven coming down and destroying Satan and the wicked. Paul says in 2 Thessalonians 1 and verse 8 that Jesus will come back in flaming fire, taking vengeance on those who don’t know God and don’t obey the gospel. So the amillennial view, which is the view that most Christians have held throughout history, is that the thousand-year so-called reign, in Revelation 20. By the way, Revelation 20 is the only place in the Bible that mentions a thousand year reign. But that is symbolic for the much longer period, which is what we might call the age of the church.
SPEAKER 09 :
So do you believe in 144,000 Jews that are going to minister in the last days during the tribulation? And do you believe… that the two witnesses, one is going to be Moses, not Moses, Elijah, because it says in Malachi, that nobody knows who the second witness is going to be. Can you talk to me about that?
SPEAKER 07 :
Well, I can. This gets rather involved. I don’t believe Revelation is describing the end times. And so that’s a totally different starting point from where you’re at. The 144,000, are mentioned twice in Revelation. They’re mentioned in chapter 7, where we’re told nothing about them except that there were 12,000 from each of the 12 tribes, and they were sealed before the disasters and judgments came upon the land. And they were protected from those judgments by being sealed. But in chapter 14, they’re mentioned again, just in a few verses. And it says about the 144,000 in Revelation 14, 4 and 5, these are the ones who were not defiled with women, Now, in Revelation, harlotry is, generally speaking, a spiritual thing. And Babylon, for example, is considered to be the mother of harlots and so forth. And these ones did not compromise in that area. They didn’t compromise with the harlots and so forth. That’s what’s symbolic. They weren’t defiled with women. For their virgins, that is, they’re pure. these are the ones who follow the lamb wherever he goes. Again, Jesus is not literally a lamb, and lambs usually do the following. But in this case, these people are following the lamb as if he’s the shepherd. That’s obviously a reference to Christ, and therefore they are Christians, as well as being Jews, because they were said to be 12,000 from each of the 12 tribes of Israel back in chapter 7. So they’re Jewish Christians. It says, these were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits to God and to the lamb. Now, the firstfruits to God, would be the first ones brought in in the harvest. That would be the first Christians converted, which were Jewish Christians, and that fits the description of them here. They’re Jewish. They’re followers of Christ. They’re the first fruits. That is, the first converts, the first people that came into the church, were the Jewish Christians in Jerusalem. And frankly, they were the only Christians for… some years before Gentiles started coming in. Now, James, who was a Jewish Christian in the first century, wrote his book to Jewish Christians in the first century. He addresses it in James 1, verse 1, James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, to the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad. Okay, so the twelve tribes, we know that 144,000 were of that group, and he says to them in verse 18, James 1, verse 18, Of his own will he be brought us forth by the word of truth, that we might be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures. Now, James tells the Jewish Christians in the first century that they were the firstfruits. And the 144,000 are said to be the firstfruits also, because they were. They were the first Christians, and they were Jewish Christians. They were sealed to be spared the judgments that came upon Jerusalem in AD 70. And they did. They escaped that. The Christians in Jerusalem fled and did not die. And in Revelation 14.5, it says further about them, and in their mouth was found no guile. You might remember that in John chapter 1, when Nathanael was seen coming to Christ, Christ said, there’s an Israelite indeed in whom is no guile. That is no dishonesty, no hypocrisy. So he is one of the true remnant of Israel. He was a true Israelite in whom is no guile. And that is true of all of these that are said to be the 144,000. It’s the early Christians, the first converts, the ones who were like Nathaniel, honest people, not hypocrites like the Pharisees, followers of Jesus, and says they’re without fault before the throne. So I believe the 144,000 are symbolic for the the Jewish Christians who were saved and spared the Holocaust in AD 70. Now, as far as the two witnesses, I have another view of that, too. I won’t go into it right now. I’ll just tell you that on the view of revelations I hold, the two witnesses simply represent the church, not specifically Moses and Elijah. And I realize that most popular teachers would take them to be Moses and Elijah or else maybe Enoch and Elijah. I have a different view. I had that view at one time, but I don’t hold that view anymore.
SPEAKER 09 :
Well, I don’t have any Bible training. I mean, I read the Bible every day, every single day. Good. And I never take any courses like you have, but I just wanted to get your opinion on it. Oh, I haven’t either.
SPEAKER 07 :
I haven’t either. By the way, I’ve never had a formal training either. I just read my Bible. All right. Thank you very much. Well, God bless you, John. Thanks for your call. Dennis in Oakhurst, California. Long time no hear. Welcome.
SPEAKER 02 :
Yeah, it’s good to connect with you, Steve. God bless. Things are well with the family and such. I wanted to just run something by you, hopefully pretty quickly here, and that is of course, you understand that the land promises were conditional based on Deuteronomy 32 and Leviticus 25 and such, but But you do recognize that the old covenant has been fulfilled and superseded by the new covenant.
SPEAKER 04 :
Yeah.
SPEAKER 02 :
So why, I’m going to challenge you a little bit, not unlike the past, why are you applying an obsolete covenant to a promise that preceded the Sinaitic covenant, and wanting to apply that when that covenant is superseded. That covenant is no longer applicable.
SPEAKER 07 :
In other words, you’re talking about how God made the promise of the land to Abraham, and that was a long time before Moses. The promise of the land to Abraham and his seed was made 600 years before Moses’ time. And then in Moses’ time, it was reiterated to the Jews in the Sinaitic covenant. on conditional terms. What I understand is that the promise that Abraham’s seed would inherit the land was a token of what Paul said it really meant. Paul said in Romans 4.13 that the promise to Abraham and his seed was that they would be heirs of the world. Now, the world is not another word for the land. It’s the world, the whole world. So Paul said that the promise made to Abraham and his seed was was that they’d be heirs of the world, not just of a little piece of land the size of New Jersey. And that’s the promise. And that will be fulfilled in Christ, who is Abraham’s seed, who will reign from sea to sea and from the whole world. Every knee shall bow and every tongue shall confess that he’s Lord. So he’s going to fulfill that promise to Abraham’s seed, which is Christ, given the whole world. Now, in between the time of Abraham… and the time of Christ. God chose a people who were largely ethnic, although they were a mixed multitude. They were Jews and Gentiles, but they were based on the Sinaitic covenant, given a chance to possess the land, not the whole world, but the land that had been the Canaanites’ land. and only that, but they could only do so if they kept the terms of the covenant, and of course they didn’t, so they lost it. Now, that means, of course, that no one can claim that land as God’s inheritance to them on the basis of the Sinaitic covenant, because that covenant is obsolete, and they broke the terms of the covenant anyway. As far as the promise to Abraham, this is still true, and that is that his seed, and Paul, of course, you know Paul said in Galatians 3.29, if you belong to Christ, you are Abraham’s seed, and you are the heirs according to the promise. So the promise that God made to Abraham, the heirs of that are those who are in Christ. Because Christ is Abraham’s seed, and in him, so are we. So he’s going to inherit the world. That’s the fulfillment of the Abrahamic promise. And if we’re in him, we inherit it with him. We are joint heirs with Christ, it says in Romans 8. So this is how I reason.
SPEAKER 02 :
Yeah, the thing is, Steve, is I’m talking specifically about how your arguments with Dr. Brown and myself and others, that you largely emphasize the conditional aspects of the Sinaitic covenant. To the Jewish people, right. That’s gone. That covenant’s gone. So that does not apply on this.
SPEAKER 07 :
Okay, so it only applies to the children of Abraham, then, not to the Jewish people.
SPEAKER 02 :
Okay, so here’s the point, though. As you know, there’s more than one promise that he gave Abraham. So that has to be clearly distinguished. And so we have to recognize there’s a promise of the Spirit, there’s a promise, you know, as Galatians talks about. And so, you know, that Sinaitic covenant that came 430 years later in no way disannulls the previous covenant made to Abraham. And this is where there’s going to be some disagreement. But when I look in Galatians, I’m sorry, Genesis 15, that’s a unilateral covenant, and it’s specifically regarding the land. And then one last thing, I’ll let you respond. I don’t want to take up too much of your time, but that’s a unilateral covenant. And then we know that God determines the bounds of nations, Acts chapter 17, and So regardless of the Sinaitic covenant and them not being repentant or an ungodly secular socialist nation that has gay pride parades or whatever, weighs in in no way at all with regards to God’s sovereign promise and fulfillment of that unconditionally. And why in the world would he put a condition on them unconditionally? that he didn’t even put on them in the first place when they left Egypt. They were a murmuring, complaining people, and God brought them into the land because he said he remembered.
SPEAKER 07 :
No, no, no, no, no. I’m going to keep you over through the break because we need to talk about this. But no, he didn’t bring them into the land prior to making the Sinaitic Covenant. He made the Sinaitic Covenant when they came out of Egypt, Ben, before they came into the land. And he basically said there what the terms were under which they could have that. Yeah, they were moving in that direction. They were going that direction, you’re right, on those terms. Listen, I’m going to put you on hold, and I’m going to come back to you after this break. Thanks for holding. You’re listening to The Narrow Path. My name is Steve Gregg, and we’re a listener-supported ministry. If you want, you can write to us at thenarrowpathpobox1730 Temecula, California, 92593. Or you can go to our website, thenarrowpath.com. Everything’s free. You can donate there if you wish. I’ll be back in 30 seconds. We have another half hour, so don’t go away.
SPEAKER 01 :
Is the Great Tribulation about to begin? Are we seeing the fulfillment of biblical prophecy unfolding before our very eyes? In the series, When Shall These Things Be?, Steve Gregg answers these and many other intriguing questions. The lecture series entitled, When Shall These Things Be?, can be downloaded in MP3 format without charge from our website, thenarrowpath.com.
SPEAKER 07 :
Welcome back to The Narrow Path Radio Broadcast. And my name is Steve Gregg. We’re taking your calls. If you have questions about the Bible or the Christian faith, our last open line just filled up as I was introducing it. So I think our lines are full now. But if you want to try to get in later, you can call me at 444-484-5737. Just before the break, we were talking to my friend Dennis in Oakhurst, California. Dennis and I actually have debated on his own radio program, and we’ve been friends for, oh, 20-something years, I suppose. And he’s a Bible teacher also. And this is the subject we always debate about, about Israel and so forth. But we haven’t heard from Dennis for a while. He called just before the break. So, hi, Dennis. Thanks for holding over on the break.
SPEAKER 06 :
Of course. It’s my privilege.
SPEAKER 07 :
Okay. So the argument I make is, is that the land promise made to Abraham was not made specifically to his physical offspring. Paul makes it very clear. Paul says the children of the flesh, meaning the physical offspring, they are not the children of God, but the children of the promise. Well, who are the children of the promise? Well, of course, Paul makes it very clear. In Galatians 3, 7, he says, Therefore know that only those who are of faith are the sons of Abraham. So if God made a promise to the sons of Abraham or the children of Abraham, Paul says only people who have faith belong to that category. And, of course, he says in the same chapter, if you are in Christ or if you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham’s seed and heirs according to the promise. So the promise that God made to Abraham, which Paul elsewhere in Romans 4.13 says, is that he’d be heir of the world. is given to Christ, the seed of Abraham, and to those who are of faith, because only those who are of faith are the children of Abraham, according to Paul. Now, I believe that. I believe that the land promised is for those who are of faith and who are in Christ. And it’s not for the children of the flesh. I mean, in Galatians 4, Paul says Abraham had two kinds of children, children of the flesh and children of the promise, who were like Ishmael and Isaac.
SPEAKER 02 :
I’m not arguing that, though.
SPEAKER 07 :
Okay, but what I’m saying is this. You asked me how I justify my position. My position is that being an heir of the world is a promise that still is held out and which Christ will inherit, and we will inherit with him. We’re the children of Abraham. So when God made promises to Abraham and his seed, he made them to those who are of faith, which includes us, who are not Jewish, and any Jews who are. But the Jews in the land right now are not of faith. the Jewish people in Israel don’t believe.
SPEAKER 02 :
Right, right. So they’re not children of Abraham. The Germans are not of faith, and Americans are not of faith, but they’re in their own land. Wait, wait, wait.
SPEAKER 07 :
That’s irrelevant. No one is claiming that the Germans possess their land by divine promise. No one is claiming that America possesses the land by divine promise. People are claiming that modern Israel… is in their land by divine promise. So what we’re talking about here is not, is Israel like Germany and America, but is Israel in a separate category from Germany and all other nations? Okay. So the real question is, are they? No. The Bible does not say they are.
SPEAKER 02 :
Well, here’s the thing, Steve, is that the Germans were never promised the land, and the Israelites were, and ultimately… Only those that are of faith will see the fulfillment of that land promise to its culmination. But the point being is that they were brought into the land. They were leaving Egypt, and God said he heard their cries, and he remembered his covenant, and he brought them out of Egypt. And yes, in the trajectory towards the promised land, he established the Sinaitic covenant. That covenant has been abrogated, okay, I don’t even like that term, but let’s just say fulfilled, and now God unilaterally, based upon grace, has brought them back into the land, setting the stage for future fulfillment. No, no, he hasn’t.
SPEAKER 07 :
He hasn’t. There’s more Jews outside of the land than in it. How can we say God has brought them back to the land? The land was given to them 85 years ago, and still most Jews don’t live there. No, he has not brought them back there. Dr. Brown was trying to tell you, God is bringing us all back. You might remember, I asked him, well, Dr. Brown, when are you going back? You’re a Jew. He said, well, whenever God calls me to. So in other words, he doesn’t believe God’s calling Jews back yet because he’d be going if he did.
SPEAKER 02 :
That’s a minor point. The point is that it is a Jewish nation largely with Arabs and so on.
SPEAKER 07 :
Which means nothing.
SPEAKER 02 :
Well, I guess the main point I want to make is that to somehow take the conditional promises of the Sinaitic covenant and try and apply it to the… Why are they in the land today? Because they haven’t repented. That doesn’t even apply. That covenant is done. We’ve moved on. And then when you look in Genesis 15, it’s specifically a land promise. It’s a unilateral covenant. The furnace walks through the split… animals and God promises and says you’re going to be in that land and there are more than one promise the promise of the world it says Abraham shall be a father of many nations so yes that promise will be fulfilled alright well listen what you have Dennis you have an Old Testament faith
SPEAKER 07 :
And that’s true of Dr. Brown, and that’s true of everyone who takes your position. It’s not true. Because the New Testament answers all that, and I’ve given you the New Testament answers, and you just don’t want them to mean what they say. And listen to me. You said that there’s some kind of an unconditional promise in Genesis 15. Can you explain that to me? There’s animals that are separated. A burning furnace and a flaming lamp pass through. Explain what that means. Explain what that means.
SPEAKER 02 :
Yeah, what it means is that in ancient Mesopotamian culture, these covenants were established by that very means where an animal was cut in half and both parties of the covenant, in a conditional covenant, would walk through basically swearing that if they don’t keep the covenant, they will end up forfeiting their blood and their lives like these animals did. In the case of the covenant there for the land, it’s only Yahweh going through.
SPEAKER 07 :
Where does it speak of Yahweh going through? Where does it describe Yahweh?
SPEAKER 02 :
Where does it speak of Abraham going through? What does it speak of Abraham going through?
SPEAKER 07 :
Did Abraham walk through those animals? Listen, Dennis, it doesn’t describe anyone going through. It describes an oven and a lamp going through. That’s not people. Those are symbols of something.
SPEAKER 02 :
Did Abraham walk through?
SPEAKER 07 :
No, and neither did God.
SPEAKER 02 :
Okay, that’s the point.
SPEAKER 07 :
Okay, so what’s the point? Unilateral.
SPEAKER 02 :
The point is it’s unilateral. And do you know what it is that God said?
SPEAKER 07 :
Do you know what the promise was that was made? He said the promise associated with that vision was that Abraham’s people would be in the land that’s not their own for 400 years, and then God would bring them back and bring them to the promised land again. Okay? God did that. God made a promise. Apparently it was an unconditional promise, and he did fulfill it when they came out of Egypt. And in Joshua’s day, they came back to the land after 400 years. Exactly what God said would happen. Now, of course, but we know that when he did bring them out, he made conditions for them keeping the land. He didn’t have to state those conditions here because Abraham was not going to see it happen. It wasn’t relevant to him directly. But when he fulfilled this promise and brought them out after 400 years… He brought them to Sinai before he did, and he said, here’s the conditions that you can have this land. So, in other words, this is a conditional promise. I’m going to give them this land. Well, he doesn’t say on what conditions here, but he describes it to them when he brings them out. When he fulfills this promise, he restates the promise with conditions attached. So, I mean, if someone wants to say there’s no conditions, good luck. You don’t really have the Bible on your side, Dennis. I mean, in Genesis 18 and verse 19, God is talking about Abraham, and he says, Wait, so that God can do this? Abram has to teach his children to do justice and righteousness so that God can fulfill his promises. Well, then it must not be an unconditional promise if God needs Abram to do that in order for him to fulfill it. So there’s no suggestion of an unconditional promise anywhere in Scripture. That’s a dispensational idea. That’s a dispensational idea. You’re not a dispensationalist anymore, but you haven’t left that part away. There’s no unconditional promises in the Bible.
SPEAKER 02 :
Well, there certainly is with regards to he’s committed them all in unbelief that he might have mercy upon all. The condition is faith. Wait, wait, wait.
SPEAKER 07 :
You’re calling that an unconditional promise that he’s committed them under unbelief so they can all have mercy?
SPEAKER 02 :
No, but the condition is not obedience. The condition is faith.
SPEAKER 07 :
Well, they don’t have faith. They don’t have faith. Israel doesn’t have faith in God.
SPEAKER 02 :
there is promises that they will come to faith in Zechariah 12. No, there are not.
SPEAKER 07 :
Zechariah 12 does not mention the end times. Listen, Zechariah 12, Zechariah 14, you always apply those to the end times. Give me a reason to believe in Zechariah or in the New Testament that these are referring to the end times.
SPEAKER 02 :
I don’t believe that. I was showing you how the writer of the Revelation is using Zechariah eschatologically We don’t know that. We know that when you look at the earlier chapters of Revelation, those references to Zechariah 14 are not even brought up until Revelation 21, showing that it’s an eschatological application, not preterist like you apply it.
SPEAKER 07 :
There’s no reference to Zechariah 14 in the book of Revelation. Can you find one? Can you show me one? I’m sorry. Can you show me a reference in the book of Revelation to Zechariah 14?
SPEAKER 02 :
Yes. Not to 14, but to Zechariah. Yes. Zechariah 12. I misspoke. I misspoke.
SPEAKER 07 :
Okay.
SPEAKER 02 :
Zechariah 12. I know what you’re talking about.
SPEAKER 07 :
You’re talking about Revelation chapter 1, where it says in verse 7, Behold, he’s coming with clouds, and every eye will see him, also those who pierced him. Right? And all the tribes of the earth will mourn because of him. That’s an allusion, that is an allusion, apparently, to Zechariah 12, 10. But the same author, John, who wrote this, also made allusion to that same verse in chapter 19 of John, saying it was fulfilled when his side was pierced on the cross. So, I mean, I don’t really, you know, this is all debatable, and I’ve got my lines full. And you and I have debated this, actually, for, I think it was a couple hours on your radio show. And we can do it again. Yeah. But we’re getting to other questions now. You see, the question you had for me is, why would I use the conditional promises of the Sinaitic covenant to say that the promise is no longer, when in fact God had made the promise earlier to Abram? Well, what God promised Abram earlier was that he would give the land, which was a token of the whole world, according to Paul, to Abram and his seed. And Paul tells us Abram’s seed… are the believers in Christ. So God will give, like Jesus said to his disciples, blessed are the meek, they shall inherit the earth. That’s us. And we are joint heirs with Christ, heirs of God, it says in Romans 8. So, I mean, all of that is agreeable. God is going to fulfill that to Christ and the church who are Abraham’s seed. As far as the Jews as a nation, the Jews didn’t exist as a nation until Mount Sinai. They were just a bunch of people, and God made a nation of them and said, if you’ll obey my voice and deed and keep my covenant, you’ll be a holy nation. You’ll be a kingdom to me, a priest. In other words, that’s when they became a nation. And it was on the terms that, if you obey my covenant. But if they don’t obey his covenant, they won’t be, and they aren’t, because they’re not obedient to his covenant. And so, like I said, the view you’re taking is the Old Testament religion, the New Testament religion.
SPEAKER 02 :
It clarifies everything. That’s not a fair characterization at all. I’m going to let you go 10 seconds here, and that is I hope we get a chance to talk about this again. Love to have you back on the radio program. But I really think the cause would be served if we talked about our presuppositions, and we listed, and even prior to talking, we can come up with 10 or less presuppositions that you’re bringing to the text, and I can give you 10, and a very short reason why those. Okay, and then I think we can then not pass one another and actually advance the cause.
SPEAKER 07 :
Excellent.
SPEAKER 02 :
All right, Dennis. I look forward to it. Love you, man. Thanks. Okay, love you too. Bye-bye.
SPEAKER 07 :
All right, let’s talk to Tegan in Lexington, Kentucky. Hi, Tegan.
SPEAKER 05 :
Hi, Steve.
SPEAKER 07 :
I’m Steve. You’re Tegan.
SPEAKER 05 :
Hey, would you consider the commands of James and Jude, that we see any commands that they make in the New Testament, to be equal to those of Paul or Peter for us to obey? Because they’re not technically called…
SPEAKER 07 :
They’re not technically of the 12 apostles. But James, the Lord’s brother, is referred to by Paul as an apostle in Galatians. In Galatians chapter 2… or 1, I think it’s chapter 2. No, it’s chapter 1, I believe. Paul was talking about his first visit to Jerusalem after his conversion. And he says he went down to see Peter and James. He said, this is verse 18, chapter 1, verse 18 of James. After three years, I went down to Jerusalem to see Peter. and I remained with him 15 days, but I saw none of the other apostles except James, the Lord’s brother. So he’s referring to James as an apostle, even though James was not one of the 12. Of course, Paul wasn’t one of the 12 either, but he was an apostle too. So I think it’s because Jesus made a special appearance to James individually after his resurrection. It says in 1 Corinthians 15 that James was one of the ones who had a resurrection appearance made to him of Christ. It must be that whatever transpired on that occasion kind of gave him status as an apostle in the early church, sort of like Paul had that status from Christ appearing to him and commissioning him. Now, as far as Jude is concerned, Jude’s always been questionable. I mean, that was one of the last books to be accepted in the New Testament because no one really understood him. you know, why Jude’s book would be considered authoritative. Except Jude, of course, is the brother of James, as you said, and therefore the brother of Jesus. And so I think maybe some have assumed that if James was considered an apostle, maybe Jude was also. That may not be a fair assumption. But I would say this, that there’s nothing really commanded in the book of Jude that isn’t found everywhere else in the New Testament. Right. probably more than half of Jude is found in 2 Peter. But as far as the moral instructions or whatever that you’d find in Jude, they’re not unique to him. So even if we said, well, I’m not so sure Jude was an apostle, maybe not. But insofar as he’s not saying anything different than what the apostles said, there’s no serious objection that can be raised to him.
SPEAKER 06 :
Okay, and the book of Hebrews you would put into, I mean, he makes a lot of, I haven’t talked through it yet, but a lot of comments.
SPEAKER 07 :
We don’t know, no one knows who wrote the book of Hebrews. Lots of theories about that have been floated and still are around today. But we can say this about the writer of the book of Hebrews, and that is he, the writer, was actually one who traveled with Timothy, It says in Hebrews 13, 23, Now, Timothy had apparently spent some time in jail. He was set free, and the author of Hebrews says, yeah, Timothy and I will come see you together. Now, for him to be a traveling companion with Timothy almost certainly puts him in the circle of Paul, because Timothy and Paul traveled together all the last years of Paul’s life. And so whoever it was, whoever it was, was close to Paul. Now, there’s some arguments have been made that it was Luke who wrote it, And we know he was a commander of Paul. He also wrote two other New Testament books. Some have thought Barnabas wrote it. There’s a good argument for that, but not perfectly, you know, can’t prove it. Barnabas traveled with Paul. And Barnabas is actually called an apostle in the book of Acts. It refers to the apostles Barnabas and Saul. So Barnabas could have written it. Luke could have written it. Luke wrote other books of the New Testament, and Barnabas was called an apostle. So, you know, if it wasn’t them, it was someone like them. You know, it was somebody like them who was close to Paul enough so that he’d be traveling around with Timothy. It may be that Hebrews was written after Paul died, but Timothy probably still traveled with some of the same people in the same group that had been with Paul, like himself. So, you know, we don’t know for sure, but… The book of Hebrews certainly has more qualifications than any of the books that were excluded from the New Testament in terms of authorship, because it’s clear that the author of Hebrews was very, very close to Paul and his company.
SPEAKER 06 :
So you think that apostles sent by the church would be authoritative, even though they wouldn’t be in the same league? Not equally.
SPEAKER 07 :
Not equally. No, not equally with Paul or the 12 who were apostles of Christ. But on the other hand, if the assumption is that this could have been an apostle, this could have been Barnabas. This could have been, you know, Timothy was called an apostle, too, although Paul might have meant him as an apostle to churches. I think the point is that if someone traveled with Paul and was writing theology, he must have been writing theology that Paul knew and agreed with. Okay. You know, and so that even if we don’t have Paul’s handwriting here, we probably would have Paul’s imprimatur upon it, you know, as one of his companions and disciples or whatever, or co-apostles for all we know. Yeah, we just don’t know.
SPEAKER 06 :
Okay, yeah. All right, thank you.
SPEAKER 07 :
Okay, Tegan. Hey, good to hear from you, brother.
SPEAKER 06 :
Yeah, good to hear from you. Bye-bye.
SPEAKER 07 :
Bye now. For those of you who’ve listened to our audio books, you may not know, but that Tegan is the one who read the audio books at our website. Priscilla in Vancouver, British Columbia, welcome to The Narrow Path. Hi, greetings, greetings. How are you? Good, thanks. Go ahead.
SPEAKER 10 :
Good, thank you. All right, been doing a little bit of all. Some Bible study here. Finally opened my Bible. Is there anyone here?
SPEAKER 07 :
Well, do you have a question? Do you have a question or do you want to give me a Bible study?
SPEAKER 10 :
No, I’m just wanting for you to expand on what I was thinking. Go ahead. Verses, chapter 3 from, forgive my, no, Proverbs. Proverbs 3. Chapter 3.
SPEAKER 04 :
Mm-hmm.
SPEAKER 10 :
Trust in the Lord, verse 5, 6, 7. Trust in the Lord with all your heart and not even to your own understanding. Verse 7, do not rise in your own eyes, fear the Lord and turn away from evil. I appreciate all that. But that saying where God helps who helps themselves, I’m going to hang up after this. But can you expand on, like, all the talk about, well, do not lean on your own understanding, be not wise in your own eyes. Like, am I not supposed to use my brain so he can help me? Am I not looking to my own heart so he can help me and I can be like him? Like, that’s where I get confused.
SPEAKER 07 :
All right. Well, Proverbs is not saying don’t use your brain. It’s just saying don’t lean on your limited understanding when you actually have a promise from God. Trust in God. If God promises something and in your brain you can’t figure out how it could be true, then you’ve got to know, well, Am I going to lean on what God said or lean on my own limited understanding? He’s saying when you’ve got to make a choice. Now, obviously, we have to even to do what God said or to believe what God said, we have to understand it. So he’s not speaking against understanding. But he is saying that if there’s, you know, if there’s a promise of God or something God has said is true and we don’t have other confirmation of it and we don’t understand how it could be true, Well, then we’ve got a choice. We can trust in what God said, or we can trust in our own limits of our understanding. He says it would be smarter to trust in the Lord with all your heart and not lean only on your understanding, which only goes so far. And when he says don’t be wise in your own eyes, it just means don’t think you’re so smart. You know, fear the Lord and depart from evil. Fear the Lord and depart from evil just means… Live the way he said to live and don’t think you’re smarter than he is. You know, if you are thinking the same way God does, then you are indeed wise. But when he says don’t be wise in your own eyes, he means don’t think you’re smarter than God. Don’t think you’re so smart. You know, trust God. Fear God. Do what God says. And don’t think you know better than he does about stuff. That’s what it’s saying. It’s not saying you can’t use your brain or can’t recognize, you know, rationality and intelligence. It just means that when these things are in conflict with trusting and fearing God, well, then you better choose God and not those things. All right. Let’s talk to Patty from Bayville, New York. Hi, Patty. Welcome.
SPEAKER 11 :
Oh, hello.
SPEAKER 07 :
Hi.
SPEAKER 11 :
Hi. Can you hear me?
SPEAKER 07 :
Yes. Keep talking, please.
SPEAKER 11 :
Okay. My question is, in 1 Peter, 1 chapter 17-18, because I listened to J. Vernon McGee and he quoted from it, and there’s a line in here that we’re not redeemed with corruptible things, and traditions from our fathers. But then I’m in my Catholic Bible, and they totally changed that line, realizing you were, you know, ransomed from your conduct, handed on by your ancestors. So they, like, took out the whole thing about, you know, received by tradition from your fathers. You’re not saved by that.
SPEAKER 07 :
But the way I’m not familiar with the Catholic Bible, but if it said things handed down, The word tradition in the Greek means that which is handed down. That’s literally what tradition means. Oh, it is? Okay. So they’re just saying the same thing in different words.
SPEAKER 11 :
I just got really confused. Oh, so they are. Okay. I’m just very confused. All right. So it does mean this. And they do have a reference on the side that we are saved by the blood. So, okay. You answered my question. Thank you so much. I love your show.
SPEAKER 07 :
Thank you. Thanks for your call. God bless you. James from Hartford, Connecticut. We don’t have long, so if you have a question, you’re welcome to get it.
SPEAKER 08 :
Hi, thank you. I love your show. I love you guys. I wanted to ask about Jude and St. Jude. It says that because he was… Actually, his name was Judas, and nobody wanted to… to name their child Judas. And therefore, I don’t know if you’ve heard of the Judas prayer, that if you pray… What is your question?
SPEAKER 07 :
What is your question?
SPEAKER 08 :
Yeah, I mean, my question is, I guess, what’s your kind of thoughts on that, if you’ve heard anything about it?
SPEAKER 07 :
Well, Jude is the English version of his name. Judas is the Greek form, and the Hebrew form is Judah. So one of the tribes of Israel was the tribe of Judah, and it’s a very popular name. Actually, another tribe was Simeon, and Simon in the Greek was a very popular name. Many of the Jews named their children Simeon. after famous persons, especially tribal leaders of Israel’s history. So in the days of Jesus, actually, the name Simon and the name Judah were the most popular boys’ names. People more often named their sons Simon or Judah, which were both, of course, from Simeon and Judah in the Old Testament, than any other names that they chose. Now, in Greek… Judah is spelled Judas. And there were lots of Judases. There were a lot of Judas. There was not only Judas Iscariot, which is just a Greek form of the name Judah. There was also another Judas among the 12. James and Jude were brothers. And so we have that connection. Jude is simply the way that we say the name in English. And it’s not that anyone didn’t want to name their child Judas, because frankly, when Jesus and his disciples were walking the earth, the name Judas didn’t have any negative connotations. It’s only after Judas Iscariot betrayed Jesus that that became the case. But Judah was actually a very popular name, and therefore there’s a number of Judases in the New Testament. You’ve been listening to The Narrow Path. Our website is thenarrowpath.com. Thanks for joining us.
