In this episode of Family Talk, we delve into the incredible journey of Brad and Marilyn Rhodes as they share their remarkable story from the challenges of their first year of marriage to developing a powerful marriage ministry. Learn how they navigated marital conflicts and rediscovered their love for one another by placing God at the center of their union. Brad and Marilyn emphasize the importance of relying on God for fulfillment and how this transformed their lives and relationship.
Welcome everyone to Family Talk. It’s a ministry of the James Dobson Family Institute supported by listeners just like you. I’m Dr. James Dobson and I’m thrilled that you’ve joined us.
SPEAKER 05 :
Welcome to Family Talk, the broadcast ministry of the Dr. James Dobson Family Institute. I’m Gary Bauer, Senior Vice President of Public Policy here at the Dobson Policy and Culture Center. I’m also the host of the Defending Faith, Family, and Freedom podcast. You know, our nation was founded 250 years ago. There’s going to be a lot of celebrations about that this year. And all during that time, the family, marriage between a man and a woman, has been the institution of which has held our great nation together. And the foundation of successful families, as I think most of us know, are marriages based on the Bible, biblical marriage. Since the beginning of time, it was God’s plan for a man to leave his father and mother and cleave to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh. You know, even secular societies recognize the value of families and marriage. But I’m sorry to say, and I think we all know this, here in America, the family and marriage have been under a lot of pressure in recent years. Dr. James Dobson devoted a good bit of his life and ministry to trying to battle back against some of the cultural and legal pressures on marriage. Sadly, even many Christian marriages often wind up in One of two categories, none of which are good. The worst one, of course, is heading for divorce. None of us want that. But the second one, surviving but not thriving, I don’t think that’s anybody’s idea of marriage either. But there is good news about helping people, particularly people of faith, rediscover the biblical principles that can help move our marriages out of divorce court. And out of just survival mode, our guests today here on Family Talk are going to help us discover not only what those principles are, but they’re going to help us learn how to use those principles. When Brad and Marilyn Rhodes met in 1995, I’m told it was love at first sight, although I think that only applies to Brad. We’ll get both sides of the story as we get into this. Brad completed his undergraduate studies at Furman University, where he graduated Phi Beta Kappa. He then went on to graduate from law school at the University of Kentucky in my home state. From there he launched a successful career as an attorney practicing law for a couple of decades. Marilyn had earned her degrees in psychology and social work. Counseling, I understand, was her passion. And, you know, if you look at that, their good education and they both were men and women of faith, you would think that their marriage would automatically blossom. So you can imagine their surprise, the surprise it was to both of them when they approached their first wedding anniversary. and had to come to grips with the reality that their marriage looked like it was on the wrong track. Now, obviously, Brad and Marilyn recovered from that first rocky year of matrimony, and they’ve gone on to establish a powerful marriage ministry, which is benefiting thousands of couples nationwide. They’ve written a book about their experiences, which was named Book of the Year by Christianity Today in 2024. The book is called The Grace-Based Marriage. So let’s get right into it. Brad and Marilyn, welcome back to the James Dobson, to Dr. James Dobson’s family talk. And let me just say, as we get started here, If Dr. Dobson was not with our Father in Heaven and was still on planet Earth, he would want to be doing this interview. Because, of course, this was something that drove a good bit of his life, and he was well aware of your work and very… proud of it and impressed by it. So he’s not here, but I know he’s watching. So you guys, welcome back to Family Talk.
SPEAKER 02 :
It’s a privilege to be here. Thank you for having us.
SPEAKER 05 :
Thank you. So let’s begin, as I mentioned a little earlier, how did you guys meet? And was it love at first sight for both of you or just you, Brad? Fill us in a little bit.
SPEAKER 03 :
Well, if you, it was love at first sight more for me than Marilyn. And if you looked at both of us, you’d understand why. So, so it was, so, but yeah, it was like, you know, I just made a commitment. I wouldn’t date for a year. And then when I first saw Marilyn, you know, eight months later I was married, you know, so it was like, yeah, I couldn’t believe she existed much less that she was interested in me. So, Still feel that way. But yeah, I knew pretty quickly that Marilyn was super special. And the longer I married her, the more I realized that’s the case. You all in with that description of how things went, Marilyn?
SPEAKER 02 :
It was not quite love at first sight for me, but it was quick, obviously. We were married eight months later. So we even went to a Chuck Swindoll conference that I bought for us prior to marriage. And I thought, this will be good for us. And we went to this conference and we thought, this is great. They have this for couples that need it, but we’re not going to have these issues. And we just checked out of the conference. We still laugh about that because the minute we got married, the conflict started. When you have two selfish people that come to marriage with selfish motives, it sets you up to crash. And I think the world paints a picture of that pushes us in that direction, thinking that marriage is going to do something for us rather than this is an institution God created for His glory, and it works when we’re both dying to self rather than being selfish.
SPEAKER 05 :
So you both grew up in Christian homes, I’m assuming. Why don’t you tell us a little bit about that? But I think it’s fair to say you didn’t enter marriage with any anxiety about success because, as you indicated, you felt like you pretty well had things under control. But tell us a little bit about your home lives before you found each other.
SPEAKER 02 :
We both grew up in Christian homes, would both say that we love the Lord, but we were just living selfishly because even in a Christian home, the world speaks so loud to us and we bring that up. to the table. Would you agree with that, Brad?
SPEAKER 03 :
Yeah, it was, I think you don’t necessarily, it just seemed like we both made each other’s lives so much better. So we went into marriage thinking, man, Marilyn’s such a big ad for my life. And Marilyn’s like, Brad’s such a big ad for my life. It’s kind of, we kind of expected like everything to go better because we’re married. And whenever you go into something with a motive to make things better for you, it always breaks down. You know, whoever finds his life would lose it, but whoever loses life for my sake will gain eternal life. So I think we, and we just had such strong emotion. We just felt marriage would go well. I mean, we didn’t really, and nobody had really told us you actually have to invest in marriage. You have to block off time for marriage. You have to be creative with this. You have to say no to other things. Nobody taught us how to do marriage. We had no clue. We just thought it would work because we had something so special. And 10 out of 10 couples found out that’s wrong. And that’s why we feel committed to helping people take an investment growth mentality in marriage where you intentionally grow the thing as opposed to unintentionally allow it to drift.
SPEAKER 05 :
That’s right. So in that first year, I remember my first year with my wife, Carol, we actually had a pretty good argument driving on our way to our honeymoon. And it was over directions, if you can imagine. And I was kind of shocked at the time how quickly it was a really unpleasant conversation. And I thought, whoa. But as you know, people argue. They make up. Did you sense right from the beginning that something was off track?
SPEAKER 03 :
I don’t mean to top a tale, but we had our first argument at our wedding reception. So, Gary, we were arguing before we got to the car because I got impatient and was rude to our photographer. And then Marilyn was bothered that I was rude to the photographer because the photographer’s a family friend. And so we tried to make sure we – I broke in the real fight early.
SPEAKER 02 :
And Brad is an attorney and he’s gifted with words. So arguing for him, it’s like breathing. He can poke holes in something. So arguing, we both came from very different families of origin, had very different expectations of marriage. I had lots of expectations of how incredible it was going to be. And Brad had very few expectations other than we’re just going to coexist and- come together physically and just love each other well, and it’ll be great without trying. I mean, the world tells us that, that if your marriage isn’t okay, something’s wrong. It should be okay without any work. Every other part of life takes work, and we know that. Talents, our jobs, children. But if it’s not naturally good between a couple, then this must be a terrible thing.
SPEAKER 05 :
I know you both take mutual responsibility for whatever was going off the tracks. But Marilyn, is it true that you actually said to Brad that he was great at dating women? But not so great at marriage?
SPEAKER 02 :
Yes. I said, you were great at dating, but you were terrible at being married. He just treated me like a roommate. And we just, we really, I had these, I thought we’d get up and have coffee together in the morning and talk. And Brad would wake up just in time to make it to the office. And he loved sports. I didn’t grow up in a sports home. And Everything revolved around sports. So we’re in a new city, and I just felt he’s starting a law practice, really focused on sports in his free time, and I didn’t feel any focus was on me. And so I cried weekly, a couple times a week. We would have a big argument. And it was just about a year in, I was just pondering with the Lord, am I sentenced to a life of this? Yeah. This is miserable. I’m alone. I feel lonely. And that’s when the Lord broke my heart to my selfishness and I’d put Brad in the place of God. And God really showed me, I’m your hope, not him. I’m the perfect Prince Charming, not your imperfect husband and my imperfections that I bring. So I went to Brad and I apologized and I said, I have been so focused on you. rather than focused on how the Lord is calling me to love you in marriage, will you forgive me? I don’t want to be on this roller coaster, and I’m just going to look at where I’m called to be obedient. And that was a turning point in our marriage.
SPEAKER 05 :
Yeah, you both know this, but today there’s a lot of people do not get married in the church. And, you know, that’s fine. I mean, we’re all in different places in our faith journey. But if you don’t get married in church, it’s easy to forget that there are three parties in the marriage. I mean, the man and woman are pledging their love and devotion to each other, but they’re doing that in the presence of God. And God is blessing. You’re asking for his blessing in that marriage. Now, as you both found, that doesn’t guarantee the outcome. But if you go into the marriage and you’re not even thinking that God is a major part of it, that’s tough, I think, to get the kind of start we all would want at the very beginning. Yeah.
SPEAKER 03 :
But if you think about it, if we’re not relying on God for sustenance and God for satisfaction and God for joy, and we’re relying from another individual for that, that’s going to break down. You know, if my hope is Maryland and Maryland making me feel special, making me feel respected, making me feel love, making me feel like something. Well, that’s wrong. It puts too much pressure on Maryland. Maryland can’t do it. And it’s going to break down our relationship. You know, two people fully satisfied in Christ laying down their lives for one another. That’s the plan. And that’s the only plan that works. You know, what happened was, you know, we were looking for things from each other that were called only, were called to be filled in God and give to others, not be filled in one another and not think about God.
SPEAKER 05 :
Yeah. And as Marilyn mentioned, Brad, you, and this fits a lot of us, I think. So you’re at the beginning of your time together and you’re trying to build a law practice. And men have this instinct of providing for the family. And So, Marilyn, you alluded to this with the fact that Brad would get up and instead of this, you know, very civilized breakfast conversation, you imagine he was off to the office to try to make the world safe and pursue his career. I think a lot of men particularly deal with that, Brad.
SPEAKER 03 :
Yeah, it is true. And I’m getting a lot of affirmation at work. I mean, you know, it’s like It worked. You’re doing great. My clients, I told Marilyn, I said, my clients like me. My staff likes me. The law practice is growing. Everybody likes me except you. What’s your problem? You know, and the reality is I was the problem. And Marilyn’s the only one that truly knew me. And I love that one guy said, if the person that knows you the best likes you the least… You probably need to take a look in the mirror. And that’s where I was. So maybe it was Keller that said, if anything comes ahead of your marriage other than Jesus, your marriage will slowly die. And the law practice was ahead of Maryland. Sports were ahead of Maryland. Other things were ahead of Maryland. And as a result, our marriage was withering.
SPEAKER 05 :
Marilyn, was there a particular spiritual moment in that first year that started directing you toward that the problem wasn’t necessarily Brad? It was that both of you were looking at each other for fulfillment instead of relying on God and our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ.
SPEAKER 02 :
It absolutely was. I was alone with the Lord, and it’s when I was asking Him, is this it? Am I sentenced to a life of this? And I naturally am a little more steady in my personality. And all of a sudden, I’d been on this roller coaster of ups and downs based on what Brad was or wasn’t doing. And I didn’t like who I’d become because I was crying on a regular basis. I was frustrated on a regular basis. And so in that crying out to the Lord… was when I felt really convicted of my part. And that’s when I just, I really felt the Lord revealing to me, I’m your hope, not Brad. And you’re living selfishly and you need to look to me and love him how I’m calling you. So that was about a year in, and I remember the moment when I was broken before the Lord for my part.
SPEAKER 05 :
Do I recall that there was an exchange between you where you said to Brad, let’s talk? Brad, if that’s true, those are the dreaded words that every husband does not want to say. There’s almost nothing good that follows let’s talk.
SPEAKER 03 :
It’s true. Yeah, it’s true. Yeah, and I remember her telling me that. And, you know, our marriage went from really bad to stable. It didn’t go from bad to great because I was still in the marriage and hasn’t. But the Lord later showed me my part, and that’s when our marriage just really took off.
SPEAKER 05 :
Was there a conference spread that helped concentrate your mind on what needed to happen?
SPEAKER 03 :
It was. I had a very aggressive spiritual uncle whose life verse is probably wounds from a friend can be trusted. And he kept trying to push me to this marriage. It was actually in the peak of promise keepers. And he kept pushing me to go. And I said no. And then finally he made me go. He cleared my schedule at work, cleared my schedule at home, bought my ticket and invited my father-in-law and then called me. So I went, not by choice. And It’s God broke me. It may have been when I was saved. I mean, it really was. You know, it was it was the first time I said was I saw my sin HD clear. I was broken in my sin and I was given the gift of repentance and came home to Maryland and said, the only thing that’s going to be different is everything. Don’t believe me, I wouldn’t. But in five years, you’ll know God changed your husband.
SPEAKER 05 :
Well, Marilyn, that must have been music to your ears. Were you skeptical at all, or could you see something and hear something in Brad’s voice that made you feel like this is happening?
SPEAKER 02 :
Well, it was shocking because he got home really late at night. And I’m an early riser. And he was one that used to just get up at the very last minute. And it was before church. And I was outside planting flowers as soon as the sun came up. And he came outside and said, where do you want me to dig? And I was like, what in the world? he’s outside early in the morning to help me plant flowers. And so it did really speak to my heart, but I was also careful in my optimism. But as he said, he said, you’re going to know that this is a change. And it was, it was a, it was a change. And I was, the Lord just really worked on both of our hearts. And I’m so very thankful. And then we then had our marriage in a in a proper posture. But like you said, it’s three. We come to this with the Lord so often, we leave the Lord out of it. And once we both understood that He’s at the center of this, it stabilized everything. It was still quite a while before we got grace. And once we understood, the scriptures are so very instructive and specific in how they inform us. And if we really study and pray for wisdom, Our marriages, they’re to be pictures of the gospel, and they can be beautiful. And the Lord has just grown us year by year, and that’s why we long to help others.
SPEAKER 05 :
Now, how did you go from what obviously was almost a road to Damascus experience with you both understanding why that first year had not met your expectations? How did you go from that and obviously healing your own marriage to beginning a ministry that sought to heal the marriages of others?
SPEAKER 03 :
It’s interesting you ask. So we loved being married. We’d worked with youth for 10 years. And then one of the couples said, well, you do our premarital instead of our pastor. And I said, why? He said, we want what you have. What you have looks fun. So we did that premarital. We did another premarital. We started a group. I don’t know why God had given us favor with marriages, but he had. We had about a two-year waiting list for group. Then they ordained me lay pastor of marriage. Basically, you’re doing all the marriage stuff anyway. We’ll just call you pastor. And then when I was ordained pastor of marriage, this is key. I realized we did premarital counseling and crisis counseling. We had nothing for the marriage. I’m like, what a dumb ministry strategy. We’ll get you ready for it. And if you ever hate each other and want a divorce, we’ll pour thousands of dollars in you and lose 85% of you. Crazy. So I thought we have to have an ongoing strategy, discipling marriages. And then I realized with Communio Barna study, 72% of churches have no marriage ministry. 80% of churches spend no subsidy dollar on marriage. And I thought, if the church is salt and light, And marriage has been in decline and the church is silent in the space and doesn’t even find it worthy of a ministry, but it’s pouring six digits into children and youth and wondering why it’s not working. Every church needs a marriage ministry and it needs to be an ongoing marriage ministry because the church is that important. So I felt a clear call from God to leave the law practice with the prayer and hope that God would start a movement that every single Bible-believing church would have an ongoing marriage ministry to disciple marriages. We wouldn’t just leave people their own devices and let them be conformed to the patterns of the world, but we would teach them how to do it well. Because the church had taught us how to do it well. Hey, you gotta date every week, you gotta spend time together, you gotta communicate, you gotta prioritize this, you can’t put other things above it. It would have saved us a lot of trouble. But a lot of couples aren’t as fortunate as we were to have people intersect in our lives to help change our direction. They end up in complacent marriages that are terrible or they end up divorced. And the church can stop, I think, 90 to 95% of it if they start shepherding and discipling. So that was our lifetime call is to help the church do marriage well.
SPEAKER 05 :
Well, Brad and Marilyn, this conversation is fantastic. Don’t tell my wife, Carol. We’ve been married for over 50 years, but I’m even taking notes here. So I have a lot more I’d like to talk to you about, and I know our listeners would love to hear. Any chance you guys could come back for another day? We’d love to.
SPEAKER 03 :
We’d be honored. Wonderful. Wonderful. Wonderful.
SPEAKER 01 :
When two people acknowledge that the problem isn’t their spouse, but their own selfishness, well, that’s when real transformation in marriage can begin. You’ve been listening to a special edition of Dr. James Dobson’s Family Talk featuring Gary Bauer, our Senior Vice President of Public Policy here at the Dobson Policy and Culture Center, and his practical conversation with Brad and Marilyn Rhodes about building marriages that don’t just survive, but truly thrive. If you missed any portion of today’s broadcast, or if you want to share it with a couple who could use some encouragement, visit JDFI.net. There you’ll find the complete program, along with information about Brad and Marilyn’s award-winning book called The Grace Marriage. Again, you’ll find the book information as well as the audio when you go to JDFI.net. The conversation you heard today reflects the heart of what we do here at the Dr. James Dobson Family Institute. Every day, marriages across America face pressures that can feel overwhelming. Cultural messages tell us that if marriage isn’t easy, something must be wrong. Financial stress pulls couples in every different direction, and competing priorities crowd out the time needed to nurture intimacy. But through broadcasts like the one you just heard, we are equipping husbands and wives with the tools they need to build marriages that reflect Christ’s love for the church. Your partnership makes this possible for us to reach couples at every stage, from newlyweds discovering that marriage takes work to long-married partners seeking to reignite their connection. When you support the Dr. James Dobson Family Institute, you’re investing in the foundational institution God designed to hold families and communities together. To make a secure donation, visit JDFI.net. You can also call a member of our constituent care team. That number is 877-732-6825. That’s 877-732-6825. Or keep in mind, you can also send your donation through the U.S. Postal Service. Our ministry mailing address is Dr. James Dobson’s Family Talk, P.O. Box 39000, Colorado Springs, Colorado, the zip code 80949. One more time, that is P.O. Box 39000, Colorado Springs, Colorado, 80949. Well, I’m Roger Marsh, and from all of us here at Family Talk and the JDFI, thanks so much for listening today. Be sure to join us again next time for part two of this inspiring conversation featuring our own Gary Bauer and his guests Brad and Marilyn Rhodes discussing building a grace marriage. It’s coming up right here on the next edition of Dr. James Dobson’s Family Talk, the voice you can still trust for the family you love. This has been a presentation of the Dr. James Dobson Family Institute.
SPEAKER 04 :
Sometimes being a good parent requires the skills of a detective decoding the messages behind your child’s actions. Here’s today’s Dr. Dobson Minute with Dr. James Dobson. For example, when a two-year-old screams and cries at bedtime, one must ascertain what he’s communicating. If he is genuinely frightened by the blackness of his room, the appropriate response should be quite different than if he is merely protesting about having to go to bed. Perhaps the toughest task in parenthood is to recognize the difference between these two distinct motives. That’s why raising children is such a lofty skill that can never be reduced to a formula or a set of rules. Inevitably, it involves the ability to read the child like a book, feeling his passions, and responding appropriately to his needs. For more information on this topic, visit drdobsonminute.org.
