Join us as we discuss the inevitable challenges married couples face – conflicts. This episode, featuring experts Dr. Arch Hart and his daughter Dr. Sharon May, dives deep into how couples can work through disagreements to build a refuge-like marriage. Drawing on their book, ‘Safe Haven Marriage,’ they share meaningful insights into the attachment styles and emotional dynamics that shape relationships. Listen in for a blend of personal stories, professional expertise, and faith-based guidance aimed at helping listeners build marriages that are emotionally secure and resilient.
Hello, everyone. You’re listening to Family Talk, a radio broadcasting ministry of the James Dobson Family Institute. I’m Dr. James Dobson, and thank you for joining us for this program.
SPEAKER 01 :
Well, welcome to Family Talk. I’m Roger Marsh. Today’s program tackles something every married couple faces, and that’s conflict. Even in the healthiest marriages, disagreements are inevitable. But the key isn’t to avoid conflict altogether, but rather how to learn how to handle it in ways that strengthen rather than damage your relationship. Today on the program, we’re digging into the archives for a conversation featuring Dr. Dobson, his dear friend, Dr. Arch Hart, and Dr. Hart’s daughter, Dr. Sharon May. They bring decades of experience in helping couples build what they called a safe haven marriage. Now, before he went home to be with the Lord a few years ago, Dr. Hart served as senior professor of psychology and dean emeritus at Fuller Seminary. Dr. Sharon May is a licensed marriage and family therapist specializing in emotionally focused therapy. Dr. Together, you’re going to hear them share insights from the book they’ve written called Safe Haven Marriage, building a relationship you want to come home to. Whether you’ve been married for decades or you’re just starting out, today’s conversation offers practical wisdom for creating the kind of marriage that feels like a refuge rather than a battleground. So let’s get into today’s conversation right here and right now on Dr. James Dobson’s Family Talk.
SPEAKER 04 :
You, at 35 years of age, lost your husband in an accident. Do you mind sharing that with us?
SPEAKER 05 :
Not at all. In 1995, my husband was driving on his way to work, was killed in a car accident not too far from our house. And so it came very suddenly when the boys were only 10 and 12. And since then, the Lord has been really faithful to grow life around that.
SPEAKER 04 :
How have you dealt with single motherhood, having two sons and trying to be both a mother and father to them?
SPEAKER 05 :
Yes. Several things. One, I think, family support. I could not have done it without mom and dad. Mom and dad at that time were going to retire, and they sat me down and said, we’re choosing not to retire. We’re going to help you raise these boys and committed to that. And I had friends and friends. family that just came around and alongside me, some wonderful, wonderful people, and really were there for me through that time. My heart just is filled with thankfulness for them. And secondly, prayer. I think knowing that the Lord knew that this was going to happen, the Lord knew I’d be a single mom, and therefore He also had the resource and the strength to help me do that. And knowing that it was for a season, that I wouldn’t be a single mom forever, that one day they would leave home, and to do the best I could with all the energy I had until that day came.
SPEAKER 04 :
And you’ve just about got that done.
SPEAKER 05 :
That day, yes, they left for college. So I am now enjoying emptiness, grieving it, but I’ve earned it.
SPEAKER 04 :
You know, someone said that the Lord is not a bridge over trouble. He provides a tunnel through it. So you do go through it. Absolutely. Was He there for you?
SPEAKER 05 :
In very real ways. When I took the time and slowed myself down to really look up and look around, I could see evidence of God there in very, very real ways. Just when I needed that next meal because I was too exhausted, when I needed my boys to learn a principle that Mom cannot necessarily teach them. And the Lord daily would bring me a verse, bring me a book. When I had eyes to acknowledge that God was a living God who wanted to make a difference in my life, and I had eyes to see it, He was right there in very real ways.
SPEAKER 04 :
Well, that’s encouraging to a lot of people who are going through hard times now. The name of the book, again, is Safe Haven for Marriage. What in the world is a safe haven for marriage?
SPEAKER 02 :
Dr. Hart, how would you define it? Well, let me begin by saying that marriage is hard work, and marriage makes more enemies than any other relationship. So, you know, the illusion that marriage just easily works out and is hunky-dory for the rest of your life is just not true. And that conflict often hurts, too. It does. I mean, it’s intense. It is intense. And so this book has— I’m out of Sharon’s research, her doctoral research, where she looked at a phenomenon, a particular approach, and she’ll say more about that in a moment. But it is about building a safe haven. It’s about the bond, the attachment that occurs between two people. And unless that is safe, emotionally safe, nothing else works. Everything else falls apart. A place that is safe enough for you to say what you think. Talk about your feelings. A place that is safe enough to express what your wants are. A place that is safe enough so you can give it your whole heart. And how to create that sort of bond is really what this book is about.
SPEAKER 04 :
Sharon, what percentage of the married folks achieve this goal of building a relationship you want to come home to?
SPEAKER 05 :
You know, very few. I think nowadays there’s a lot of pressure on marriage. But I think that’s the reason why people do divorce. They divorce to find that safe haven, that secure attachment bond, where they feel you know me, you see me, you understand me, value me. Couples will come into my office and will say, I want to leave because I don’t feel seen and understood. And that today, I think, is a hot desire and a demand on marriage that maybe wasn’t such a demand years back. Yeah.
SPEAKER 04 :
Well, you just explained why people get divorced. What about why people marry?
SPEAKER 05 :
You know, Jim, we’re created by God to be in relationship, first with Him and then with others. So we’re not meant to go through life alone. So the Lord has put in us something that draws us to other people. and to draw us to a mate of the opposite sex. And so we get to the brink of marriage, all hopeful that we’ll be seen and understood and loved and valued. And someone will just laugh at our jokes and will not mind our quirks. And even though we’re different, they will just look over that and say, sweetheart, just let me put my arm around your waist and draw you close because I just love you and care for you. And I know some of us women, our hearts melt and say, yes, of Of course that’s what my husband’s going to do. Why wouldn’t he? And the husband say, the woman’s going to respect me and come alongside me and support me in life and value me. And maybe we didn’t get that growing up. And we long for that, that this one person will give us what maybe we never had or will continue giving us what we long for.
SPEAKER 04 :
So that’s the expectation.
SPEAKER 05 :
That’s the expectation.
SPEAKER 04 :
And expectations are made to be dashed. But I’m strongly pro-marriage and pro-family. I mean, this is God’s plan.
SPEAKER 05 :
It is God’s plan, and it is God’s will for us not to only be in a close relationship with Him, where we’re talking and having a flow and a wonderful relationship with Him. He longs for us to have a close and wonderful interchanging relationship with our spouses. So it is God’s design, right? really, to have some of these expectations met. But we start getting in life and few years pass and our differences and how we do things different all begin to mean you don’t love me and care for me. My greatest fears happened. I’ve married the man who doesn’t see me or value me. He’s aloof, he’s cold, and he’s distant and disconnected. Although when I first married him, he was an anchor and strong and stable, but now he’s just cold aloof and doesn’t have the brain cells for deep emotional thoughts or feelings. And now suddenly my dream, my longing for that close attachment is, and what we call in attachment theory is the attachment system clicks in. And the attachment system says, they’re not there for you. Danger, danger, danger. And what happens when our body and our insides of our brain senses danger? They’re not there for you. You’re not going to be loved. We want to do one of several things. We want to fight. Oh, we want to get the heck out of there. And what women usually do is fight. If I don’t argue with this man, he’ll never get to see me, love me, understand me. I have to follow him around the house and say, get back here. Don’t, you know, listen to me, understand me. And what men say is, the sooner I hear her voice go up, the sooner I hear the criticism, I withdraw, shut down, back away. I flee.
SPEAKER 04 :
I’m on the golf course. I am on the golf course.
SPEAKER 05 :
I work late.
SPEAKER 04 :
Arch, Can you give us any idea of how many people come into marriage with tremendous baggage from childhood, especially in this day where families are falling apart, there are multiple marriages and all kinds of difficulties. There’s child abuse. There’s all kinds of things that people have in their personalities when they get married. How common is that?
SPEAKER 02 :
Ninety-nine percent. I’m saying it’s very high. There’s the rare person, I think, who comes into marriage with a rich heritage of – but even with good parents. It’s not necessarily a criticism of parents here because unfortunately no longer are parents the exclusive influence in a child’s life. A lot of this baggage comes from the environment in which one is embedded. But my feeling is that we should all make the assumption when we go into marriage that we’re bringing a lot of baggage with us. And now the work begins. The analogy I like to use is that of a new car. Marriage is not like getting a brand-new car that it’s, you know, spanking clean and runs nice and starts nice and runs smooth and then slowly deteriorates. It’s the other way around. Marriage starts broken. You get a box of parts, no instruction manual. So the tendency is for young people today to idealize marriage and think, well, we’ve got this fantastic romantic love thing going now, so it’s all going to be okay. Mm-hmm. And it feels pretty good. It feels good. And that may be a reason why you will want to begin your attachment. But now the hard work begins.
SPEAKER 05 :
Yes, well, I think what we talk about in the book in Safe Haven Marriage is specifically what we bring to marriage. Our experience of being loved, how we felt we could or couldn’t be loved, the ways we try to get our parents to love us or view us or see us.
SPEAKER 04 :
That’s the attachment bond that you talk about.
SPEAKER 05 :
Right. And that is an important point, especially when I work with my pre-engagement couples or pre-marriage, is what’s that piece you’re bringing into marriage? Do you feel that no matter how much I try, you’re just not going to see me and emotions are not worth bringing up because I will be scolded, so it’s best not to feel? Or do I feel the only way I can get my needs met is by flailing and getting angry and And upping the ante. And understanding how you express your desire for love and your hurts. It’s of vital importance.
SPEAKER 04 :
Fights are inevitable.
SPEAKER 05 :
And fights are inevitable. And it’s how you fight and what you do with the fight and what happens after the fight. If a couple… is able to have, quote, a fight. You know, you didn’t offer me a cup of coffee just, you know, right at that time. And now I feel hurt. And he’s saying, well, here we go again, just like at home, you know. And this confirms that relationships are overwhelming. And she says, this confirms that relationships won’t meet your needs. And the way they fight, and if they cannot come back afterwards and say, you know, honey, it’s just a cup of coffee. I really love you and care for you, and of course I want to get you your cup of coffee. You know, I was just busy and distracted, and you’re right, I need to learn more manners in this marriage. And the way they can come back and emotionally reconnect, and that will predict. If you can stay married or not. And if you’re not able to do that, you don’t talk for a few days. You sulk. You slam the door. You let tasks or household chores bring you back together. Or, all right, well, yes, I’ll say I’m sorry right now. But underneath, I’m putting that in my back pocket for later on. Scorekeeper. Yes. And I’ll let you know in the next fight as to, well, remember the cup of coffee you never offered me two years ago? And I have some people who say, I remember on our honeymoon. You never did that.
SPEAKER 04 :
And the fights often begin right there, don’t they?
SPEAKER 05 :
Exactly. And it’s how you can emotionally reconnect and how you perceive your spouse to be that safe haven. We can predict that.
SPEAKER 04 :
And how, Arch, do you predict that?
SPEAKER 02 :
Well, you bring to your relationship a style of attaching. And it’s not that difficult. What are those styles? You talked about it in the book. What are they? The general sense.
SPEAKER 05 :
Yes. Well, secure attachment style is when I know you’re there for me, and I know I can reach you if I need you, and I know you will love me and care for me in return. The avoidant more attachment style says, you know, you won’t be there for me. And actually, you might even scold me for having these needs. And so it’s best to just sort of shut down and be neutral and not really feel and not really have those deep longings and needs. And I I think everyone should feel that way. And more the anxious attachment style says, I’m not sure if you’re going to be there. And I so long for you to be there. And I need to be scanning the horizon. Will you be there or not? You know, it’s sort of, do you love me or not love me? And then there’s more of the fearful attachment style, which in those couples and individuals, have come from more abusive families where the person that you thought would love you and be there for you was actually abusive. Maybe a depressed mom who could not be there for you, an alcoholic father. And so now you’re fearful. I long to come close, but I fear you will hurt me.
SPEAKER 04 :
Compare the desire for attachment in men with women. Is it the same in both?
SPEAKER 05 :
You know, we all. God has placed within us, all of us, a desire to be loved, valued, respected, seen, understood. And when I sit with my couples, I do couples’ individual work as well as couples’ intensives, both the husbands and wives, I will turn to both the men and the women and And the man will say, I long to be seen by her, just like her. But now maybe the way he expresses it is different. But the longing is the same.
SPEAKER 02 :
What this means is that men mask their feelings. But deep down, they long for the same intimacy. They really do. But they mask it. They’ve been hurt so often. They feel so vulnerable, so threatened.
SPEAKER 04 :
And have no idea how to deal with this angry woman. She’s on his case all the time. And he knows she wants something, but he’s not prepared to meet it. And so he just gets quieter. Yes.
SPEAKER 05 :
And he feels no matter what I give her, it’s not enough. She’s always moaning and complaining. It’s like putting a penny into the Grand Canyon. No matter what I do, it’s not good enough. I don’t hug her the right way. I don’t say it the right way. So it’s best just to shut down. And then men start saying, I don’t have it in me.
SPEAKER 04 :
And what we just described is a rather typical pattern. It can be different. But the woman is pursuing. The man is withdrawing.
SPEAKER 05 :
Exactly. The man gets overwhelmed by the woman’s emotions. He doesn’t know what to do with it. A man will try to fix it or problem solve. And a man has not really been taught how to sit with those emotions and how to just understand and listen. And when he learns how to, he discovers how powerful it is. And he thought, well, this emotion, if I just sit and listen, it soothes her. It brings us intimacy and deeper. I wish I could have learned how to do this, you know, early and sooner. But men tend to withdraw and pull away to get away from that intensity. And of course, the minute a woman sees the back of her husband’s head, that’s just a trigger that says, pursue, go after him. He just needs one more lecture. He just needs to be told in a different way.
SPEAKER 04 :
One more bolt to be tightened. Yes.
SPEAKER 05 :
He will understand me with just one more.
SPEAKER 04 :
And that makes him want to get away.
SPEAKER 05 :
Exactly.
SPEAKER 04 :
You build a cage around him. Yes. And it’s the worst thing you can do.
SPEAKER 05 :
And it’s that cycle that couples get stuck in, that we help couples identify in this book, that causes them to be emotionally disconnected. Because now they have hurts and resentfulness and wounds, and they don’t know how to come back together again and emotionally reconnect.
SPEAKER 1 :
Right.
SPEAKER 04 :
Now, Sharon, in your graduate work towards your Ph.D. in marriage and family counseling, you have examined various approaches to therapy for people who are in that kind of situation. And you have discovered and others have confirmed that there are only two that work very well.
SPEAKER 05 :
I would say yes. 75% of couples who say our marriage is terrible, this is not a safe haven, divorce is a lovely option, we’re in distress, will come into emotion-focused therapy counseling. And at the end of counseling, sometimes as short as six months, their relationship is significantly improved. They say yes.
SPEAKER 04 :
But emotionally-focused therapy means you’re talking about those feelings and how to deal with them.
SPEAKER 05 :
We are identifying this fight cycle. We’re identifying the emotions that fuel this fight cycle. And we’re helping a couple talk at the heart of their relationship rather than the behaviors.
SPEAKER 02 :
You bring it out into the open in a way that it’s safe, that doesn’t humiliate people. one or other other partners, and then begin to work constructively with those emotions, right?
SPEAKER 05 :
Right, right. And most of marriage and family therapy, you know, we haven’t done so well. Look at the divorce rate. We’re not really impacting it very much. And we have tended to focus more on behaviors or our past early childhood experiences and not really touching the heart of relationship. And the next most researched model has come from Neil Jacobson’s integrative behavioral therapy and where he says we’re no longer going to try and teach people to change we’re going to help people accept and when we can help a couple emotionally connect that is powerful enough that helps marriages last and we’re doing it with quite a high success rate and it’s starting to sweep our field
SPEAKER 04 :
But, Arch, is it not possible to head these things off before people get into a bad marriage? I mean, obviously these are things that could be talked through, but they’re usually not. And premarital counseling is usually focused on the mechanics of sex and money. Finances. You know, those kinds of things.
SPEAKER 02 :
It’s not that that isn’t important, but we have totally neglected the bonding process. We’ve not thought about it. We’ve not helped them examine their attachment styles. What baggage am I bringing here? Where was I hurt in my childhood so that it’s now beginning to get in the way? And there are really three ingredients that… help us build a safe place. And Sharon, why don’t you just mention those three? Because I think it’s important we emphasize them.
SPEAKER 05 :
The three things is one is trust. I trust that you will be there for me no matter what, no matter how much we fight, no matter how much our differences are, that you really are going to see this to the bitter end. We’re going to be married no matter what. And if I trust that, and then second, if I feel that you are emotionally available and accessible and that no matter what I’m going through or you’re going through, that we can pause to give not just our physical attention, but our emotional attention. To say, you know, honey, come sit next to me. I’m not quite sure what you’re going through right now, and I’m not sure what you need from me, but come sit. I want to listen. I want to be emotionally available. And then thirdly, to be caringly responsive, that I’m going to consider who you are. I’m going to weigh who you are. I’m going to try and take your perspective and weigh that. And those three ingredients are powerfully important.
SPEAKER 04 :
We’re going 40 miles an hour, and we’re laying down good stuff that people need to hear. And yet I just looked up at the clock, and the time is gone. And I want to pick up again with this next time if you all will be our guests, and we will just continue talking about this book. It is Safe Haven Marriage, Building a Relationship You Want to Come Home to. And everybody does, I think, and many people don’t. And you’re going to help us a little more next time to figure out how to pull that off. Thank you all for being our guests. Sorry to have to end the program so quickly. Thank you, Dr. Dobson. Thank you very much, as usual.
SPEAKER 01 :
Thank you. By the way, if you’d like to hear today’s program again or share it with someone walking through a difficult season in their marriage right now, you can always find the complete broadcast online at drjamesdobson.org forward slash family talk. That’s drjamesdobson.org forward slash family talk. And by the way, once you’re there, you’ll also find a wealth of resources to help strengthen your relationship and including the brand new five-day email series based on Dr. Dobson’s groundbreaking book called Love Must Be Tough. Each day, you’ll receive encouraging insights and practical wisdom for navigating challenges in your marriage. Whether you’re facing a crisis or you simply want to build a stronger relationship, these daily messages delivered straight to your inbox will give you hope and direction. Now, the best part is this series is absolutely free. All you have to do to sign up is go to drjamesdobson.org and then enter your name and email address where you see the icon. That’s drjamesdobson.org. Here at the Dr. James Dobson Family Institute, we are committed to helping couples build godly marriages that last a lifetime. Amen. Amen. Amen. To make a secure donation online, go to drjamesdobson.org, or you can send your tax-deductible contribution through the U.S. Postal Service. Our ministry mailing address is Dr. James Dobson’s Family Talk, P.O. Box 39000, Colorado Springs, Colorado, the zip code 80949. Thanks so much in advance for the receipt of your gift. Your generosity helps us reach countless numbers of couples with the tools and encouragement they need to build stronger, more resilient marriages. Well, I’m Roger Marsh, thanking you for spending some time with us today. Be sure to join us again next time right here for part two of Dr. Dobson’s conversation with Dr. Arch Hart and Dr. Sharon May. It’s coming up next time right here on Dr. James Dobson’s Family Talk.
SPEAKER 02 :
This has been a presentation of the Dr. James Dobson Family Institute.
SPEAKER 04 :
This is James Dobson again. As we close today’s program, I just want to thank so many of you out there who make this broadcast possible with your contributions. And I want to tell you how much your generosity is appreciated.
SPEAKER 01 :
With another Dr. Dobson Minute, here’s Dr. James Dobson.
SPEAKER 03 :
According to research by Dr. John Kuber, only one in ten marriages ever attains true intimacy in the relationship. By intimacy, we’re referring to that mystical bond of friendship, commitment, and understanding that just almost defies explanation. We’ll be right back. With a little effort, you can beat the odds and enjoy a lifelong love. For more information, visit drdobsonminute.org.
