In this heartfelt episode, Debbie Chavez opens up about her personal experiences of abuse and heartbreak, explaining the steps she took to heal and move forward. Through candid conversations, Debbie and Angie explore the power of forgiveness, the importance of setting boundaries, and the role of faith in navigating life’s toughest challenges. This inspiring discussion offers listeners practical guidance to start their own journey of healing.
Welcome to The Good News with Angie Austin. Now, with The Good News, here’s Angie.
SPEAKER 04 :
Hello there, friend. Angie Austin here with the good news. And the good news is we’re talking to Debbie Chavez. She is the author of Pivot, How to Break Free from Grief, Heartbreak, Past Abuse, and Resentment. I love this topic because this is a make or break topic for your life. If you can do it right, you have a great life. And if you can’t, your whole life is hung up on the past abuse and resentment and grief and heartbreak. Hey, Debbie.
SPEAKER 05 :
Hey there. Yes. It sounds like you might have experienced some of this in the past, just like me.
SPEAKER 04 :
You know, anybody who listens to the show is like, oh, not your mother again. I used my mom who’s so lovely and so sweet and so kind, but she was abused as a kid. She was abused as a wife. She was abused as an adult by her sister. So she definitely has more of a victim mentality than I do. And I can’t fault her per se, because she had a different, you know, experience than I did. But I’m very much about moving through with the forgiveness and, you know, breaking free from it. And I feel like even to this day in her 80s, she’s still caught up in a lot of anger. And there’s a lot of really deep wounds that still color her everyday interactions with people.
SPEAKER 05 :
And we all know someone like that. And frankly, I was someone like that for many years.
SPEAKER 04 :
Interesting, Debbie. Okay, so give us an overview of pivot.
SPEAKER 05 :
Well, what happened, honestly, is that I sat down with a friend who I hadn’t seen in years. I sat down with her about six months ago. And we started to just go through, like, what had happened to me in many, many years that had gone by. And I didn’t realize that I kept on saying to her, and then I pivoted from that. And then I had to pivot from this. And then I had to pivot from that and move forward with God. And I realized that God had taught me how to pivot, how to pivot from grief, how to pivot from past childhood trauma, how to pivot from a divorce, how to pivot from my child going to prison at the age of 18, which was devastating, as you can imagine, for a mother. I mean, I had to pivot from all of these things because you know what the other choice was, Angie? It’s to stay a victim and to stay depressed and hopeless. and just caught up in my story that I would tell over and over and over again to anyone who would have a sympathetic ear, which is one of the signs that you have toxic problems with grief and resentment and the victim mentality when you keep on telling your story over and over again to get sympathy. It was like that was my comfort zone. I’ll just tell my story. And then everyone would go, oh, that’s so sad. And these things were horrible. Just so you know, and so your listeners can resonate with me, I was the victim of pretty awful ritual childhood sexual abuse for about 10 years from the age of about 5 to 15. I won’t go into detail, but it was absolutely horrific by multiple people in a ritualistic kind of way. That was obviously hugely traumatic, and I defined myself as a victim for many decades after that. I went through a divorce after being married to a serial cheater. That was devastating. Like I said, my 18-year-old child went to prison. That broke my heart. When I approached some family members about my childhood abuse, when I finally got the courage to actually bring it out into the light when I was about 40, I was ridiculed and told that I was a devil for even bringing this up. That was heartbreaking. And then I remarried a wonderful man, a man of God, a pastor who died from COVID a couple of years ago. And so, yeah, I know what it is like to have deep trauma, deep grief. And yet I can say right now in all truthfulness, Angie, I am filled with joy and peace and an excitement for this next chapter of life that God has me in because I’ve chosen to pivot from the pain and from the past and to grab hold of God’s hand and move forward with hopeful anticipation.
SPEAKER 04 :
And how long were you married to your second husband?
SPEAKER 05 :
We had 16 years.
SPEAKER 04 :
Oh, wonderful.
SPEAKER 05 :
Just the most delightful man. I mean, God used him to just show me what it was like to be cherished by someone, and it was deeply healing. And then, you know, he’s a pastor. We have hundreds, maybe thousands of people praying for him to be healed from COVID, and boom, it didn’t happen. He was taken. And I’m telling you, the grief was… horrific. You know, when you really marry someone who, you know, you are linked together by God, it’s a God-honoring marriage, you become one. You’re like welded together. And so for him to die, it turned my world upside down briefly. And I can tell you, Angie, about four months into the grief process, and I did grieve deeply, I remember waking up one morning and I thought, I think I’m going to slide into clinical depression. I think this is what this feels like. There’s a big black hole here that’s waiting to engulf me. And it was at that moment that I just felt the Holy Spirit say, okay, you’re done with grieving now. I want you to pivot forward. Grab hold of my hand. Your life isn’t over. I have new adventures for you. And at first I’m like, what? Pivot forward? I don’t think so. But I trusted him. And God is trustworthy. That is my story. He has led me forward as I just took hold of his hand, Angie. He promises to never leave us nor forsake us. In fact, the end of Matthew 28, where he’s telling us to go make disciples of all the nations and all of that, right? But then he ends and he says, and surely I am with you always. And I grabbed hold of that. And that’s what I hope listeners will grab hold of today. Grab hold of God’s hand. He is with you. Yes, you might have suffered trauma. I certainly did. Maybe you’ve suffered tremendous grief or heartbreak. Maybe your husband cheated on you like my first husband did on me multiple times. And it’s like, I don’t have to let that define me. I get to boss around my emotions and say, that’s not going to define me. I’m not going to let the devil win this battle and keep me oppressed and hopeless. I’m not going to listen to the whispered lies of the enemy anymore. I’m going to meditate on the truth of God’s word that he says all things. God works together for good for those who love him. And that he’s come to give me life and life in abundance. And all of those verses, I’m going to grab hold of the truth. And then I can move forward with hope and joy. And guess what, Angie? When I pivoted about four months after my husband died, and I said, okay, Lord, I’m going to trust you for this next season. Guess what? Immediately, unexpectedly, and actually unwelcome by me initially, he brought a widowed pastor into my life. And I felt the Holy Spirit saying, this is the next man I have for you. And I’m like, I don’t think so. I just lost my husband. What do you say? And yet I trusted God. And guess what? We’re married now. And he’s a wonderful man. I wouldn’t have scripted my life this way. And how many listeners can resonate with that? Like, we think we’re going to hand God the script. Here, God, follow my beautiful script for my life. And he’s like, no, actually, I have a different plan for you. And it’s going to be good, just different than what you expected, right?
SPEAKER 04 :
All right, so a couple of things come to mind. First of all, I love it that you said you get to boss around your emotions because a lot of us don’t take that control and trust God on that journey. And then secondly, I have one other friend who is so much like you, and it’s interesting because I didn’t know. I mean, I had a really horrible upbringing too, but that part about hers was like satanic abuse, sexual abuse.
SPEAKER 01 :
Yes.
SPEAKER 04 :
And so, yeah, and I just couldn’t wrap my head around, like, how delightful she is and kind and loving. And I’m like, how, what’s your trick? What’s your secret? What was your path? What’s your formula? Because how are you like this? And the same thing, it was devastating to me when she told me, and we’ve been friends now, gosh, probably 30 years, when she told me that She told her family and they didn’t believe her. So there were family events where her parents got divorced. There were family events where she wanted to attend and couldn’t because the mom was included because people didn’t believe, even though it happened to another sibling as well. But that sibling was not going to talk to my girlfriend really anymore and not really address the fact that it happened. So that sibling didn’t cross out the parent.
SPEAKER 05 :
That’s such a common story. Isn’t that the… Oh, excuse me. I just dropped my headphone out of my ear. That didn’t work very well. That is such a common story that family members will actually ridicule or shun the person who’s coming forward to say, hey, I was abused. And it’s… You know what? I will… I honestly believe that that is more devastating than the initial abuse. I know that might sound like a strange statement.
SPEAKER 04 :
Oh, wow. No, but just the disappointment. You’re expecting a big hug, not a big rejection and a poke with a stick.
SPEAKER 05 :
Yes, it’s like a double whammy. It’s like, okay, this was done to me as a child, and now you’re not defending me. Now you’re not saying that that was wrong. That was so hurtful. And it took me a while to process that new trauma, that new pain. But God is so gracious. As we just lean on him and we start to walk through what it looks like to truly forgive, as we walk through what it looks like to let go of resentment and trust God, and actually… I started to ask God to give me compassion for my abusers, compassion for the people, the relatives who should have protected me. I started to ask God, give me compassion. Did they act out of their own personal issues where maybe they were scarred from their own childhood?
SPEAKER 04 :
And they don’t want to address it?
SPEAKER 05 :
Yeah. Yeah, exactly. Usually it’s the abuse that end up abusing. And so I asked God to just give me compassion. And I just trusted him with it and said, Lord, I’m going to be kind. to these people, I’m not going to act like what they did was fine, because obviously it wasn’t, but I’m going to be kind, I’m going to be honoring, and I’m just going to trust you with the rest. And something else I learned to do, and you’ve probably heard about this before, but I committed to praying for them. I don’t mean like pray that, I pray that they suffer greatly, not that kind of prayer, but I actually started to pray for them, that God would bless them, that God would speak identity to them, that God would lavish his love upon them, and that changed my heart. My heart was softer to them. God calls us to love our enemies, even our enemies. And it was freeing. It’s such an odd dynamic, isn’t it, Angie? Like you feel like this is flipped upside down, but often God’s ways are seemingly upside down to us. But praying and loving and being kind to your enemies actually releases you from the prison of resentment. And it was huge for me.
SPEAKER 04 :
OK, the other thing that I wanted to that there are a couple of things that I I had never heard before, which is shocking because, you know, I’ve been doing this for 30 plus years. I’ve interviewed thousands of people, but I’ve never heard the part about repetitively telling your sob story because my mom will trap people. My my daughter, Faith, Faith and Hope, we were just recently with grandma and Faith would turn to me and she said she caught another one. And I said, oh, did she get one? And she’d have her walker parked near the entrance exit of, like, this museum where we were, and she will catch people. Now, granted, she’s not going to tell the whole story to the person that she catches, you know, going in and out, but she starts talking to them, just a random stranger, right? But if we’re at a sporting event and she’s sitting by a parent, She will trap them for that hour and a half game or whatever it is and talk at them nonstop. And somehow the topic will turn to her sob story. And I’m not lessening her pain by saying her sob story. Oh, I know what you mean. My kids don’t even really know that much about her background except they’ve been told 20 times how her sister shoved her into a wall. They’ve been told 20 times how, you know, this thing happened with her dad. They’ve been told, you know what I mean, like, I mean, more than 20. Yeah. And so they’ve heard these stories, let’s say, a hundred times. And so she’ll say it again to my kids as if it’s a brand new thing. And it’s interesting because in some ways, I feel like that she has emotionally abused my children. And I knew it at the time, right? Because we’ve taken care of her for many years. So I said to the kids, like… This is kind of a form of emotional abuse. I know you understand grandma now, but when they were younger, like I felt some guilt over it. Cause I’m like, she’s putting her past on them in a really icky way. But as they got older, they started to understand her pain and her damage in a way that like they knew grandma was a little bit kooky that she couldn’t let go of things, you know, that she couldn’t let things go.
SPEAKER 05 :
That’s what she has a victim mindset, which is very, very common. I had that honestly for like 20 years until someone actually looked at me, a godly woman and said, well, She called me out. She said, you have victim mentality and you need to you need to get rid of that. And of course, I was like shocked and like, how dare you say that to me?
SPEAKER 04 :
Oh, no, I want to say I want to come back to that. OK, so you have to take a break. But I want to come back to that when that person had the guts to say that you had nothing to gain except to the truth and honesty, you know. And so we’re talking about the book Pivot, how to break free from grief, heartbreak, past abuse and resentment with Debbie Chavez. We’ll be right back with the good news.
SPEAKER 02 :
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SPEAKER 01 :
Rocky Ford is tuned to the Mighty 670 KLT.
SPEAKER 04 :
Hey there, welcome back to The Good News with Angie Austin. Debbie Chavez is joining us and we are continuing our discussion on her book, Pivot, How to Break Free from Grief, Heartbreak, Past Abuse, and Resentment. I was telling Debbie that my poor sweet mom, because she is a sweet lady, but boy, that you could tell her that you’ve got, you know, a bouquet of daisies for her and she will find something negative about that bouquet of daisies. You know, there’s always, there’s always, there’s no silver lining. She’s always got to find the sliver that, you know, bothers her about any situation. So, She’s told my kids her, you know, story of her past abuse so many times. And I’m not lessening it. But Debbie had said for the first time that I’d heard that people who were in that victim mentality retell their story to get sympathy from people. And it can be complete strangers. And every time we’d go to my dad’s family reunions on his side of the family, he had to retell the story to every one of his sisters and his brother. And like they were over it. They didn’t want to hear it anymore. It’s their brother, you know. And so, Debbie, you just said that someone actually confronted you on that. And I want to know how that went down, because it takes a lot of guts for someone to say, hey, you’re stuck in victim mentality. And a lot of us would get mad. But she doesn’t have anything to gain except really to help you in the long run.
SPEAKER 05 :
Yes. And it was helpful. And again, I was outraged and aghast at the beginning when she said that. I thought, how dare you? Don’t you know I’ve suffered so greatly?
SPEAKER 04 :
Yes. Don’t you know what I’ve been through? Yes.
SPEAKER 05 :
Yes. But I was, I guess, wise enough by that time to actually sit with the Holy Spirit and say, do I have that problem? And the Holy Spirit is so gentle and kind and gracious and merciful. And he did reveal to me, yes. And I started to realize that one of the signs of this toxic victim mentality is that you keep telling your story over and over and over again, because it’s become your identity. And it’s And let’s be honest, it is comforting and wonderful when you have people expressing their empathy and sympathy. It’s like better than eating a box of chocolate donuts. Oh, really? Is it? But, however, once you’re done and they’ve walked away, you’re left with that same old stinky victim mindset that is depressing and hopeless, and you have no joy in your life and no peace in your life, and you’re just stuck there. And so when she told me that, I kind of woke up and said, Lord, help me to move forward and to stop telling this story. And literally now the only time I tell the story is, for instance, on this program where I’m just letting women know that, hey, I’ve gone through this. I understand you, but here’s how God led me out of this pit. And so that’s why I tell them that my story now is just testimony. But I don’t tell it to anyone anymore because it isn’t who I am. I will not let the devil keep me oppressed and depressed. It’s like I refuse. I’m a very stubborn person. I refuse to let the enemy have the victory, and he has the victory when I keep speaking. stuck in that victim mindset where I’m hopeless and depressed. I have no peace. I have no joy. But boy, I got some sympathy from people as I tell my story over and over again. So if you can resonate with this, listeners, I’m urging you to ask the Holy Spirit to help you stop telling your story. Pivot from the past, grab hold of God’s hand, and move forward into a new chapter of life with new adventures, new relationships possibly, new purpose. Because you’re not defined. You do not need to let the past define you. That’s called kind of bossing around your emotions. Not letting the past define you and the whispers of the enemy keep you oppressed.
SPEAKER 04 :
Wow. I don’t I have done that with my mom, but she hasn’t. It’s kind of it is her identity. Yeah. So I don’t know. I haven’t really been too successful, but she’s she actually, to be honest with you, this last time she stayed with us because now my brother and I know we share the joy. I call it we share the joy of grand grand. So you keep her half the year. I keep her half the year. So when she came back this last time. I told her, I’m like, look, if you want to help the kids with their chores, like if you want to do the dishes for them or you want to help them with their laundry, you are more than welcome to do that. But you cannot complain about it. So please do not help them if you’re going to complain to me all day the next day about everything you did for them and how ungrateful they are. I’m like, please just let them do their own chores. They do them the six months you’re not here. They’re perfectly capable of doing them. So please do not help them if you’re going to complain. And she didn’t complain this time. And also she wasn’t as angry this time. And I told her, I’m like, this is the legacy you’re leaving behind. If you get that angry, these kids, like if they leave a backpack by the front door and you scream at them with complete rage, I say she’s on a rage roller coaster because she really is a sweet lady, but she finds someone underneath her with less power to really take her anger on. It could be someone delivering something to my house that she feels like, oh, well, they’re delivering something to my daughter so I can really let them have it. Or someone that’s cleaning my house or taking care of my kids. Oh, they’re doing this for my daughter, so I’m above them, so I can really take it out on them. Or my children. It’s never someone in a position of power. It’s always someone that she, quote unquote, has power over. And so she unleashes her rage on them. And I’m thankful that my kids are pretty well adjusted and they understand how grandma is. But I have to admit, and I told her, because I probably don’t give her credit where credit’s due enough, but I’m like, Mom, you’ve really been so much more enjoyable this time you’ve stayed with us. It’s really been fun. You’ve been so much less angry and you’re not, you know, lashing out at the kids or, you know, and you’re not complaining all the time. And she said she’s really been trying to work on it. And I think in her 80s that she’s… It’s all a choice. Yep. Well, let’s go ahead and just go through some of the things that you teach people in Pivot because I think a lot of people are stuck in this. So you write about these deep personal wounds you had and how you overcame the impact. So what do you teach people to do to do the same?
SPEAKER 05 :
Well, and it’s all in the book. There’s so much to go through. I go step by step. It’s really almost like a study that you could do kind of slowly, like how to release that toxic resentment, how to carry out biblical forgiveness, how to recognize the lies of the enemy that he is whispering to you. and then to take every thought captive, right? We’re told in 2 Corinthians 10, 5, to take every thought captive. So I do that now, because I know the enemy is after every one of us, whispering little lies, like, you’re unlovable, no one really likes you, you’re stupid, you’ll never get over this. Oh, he loves to whisper, you’ll never get over this. And I take those thoughts captive, and I say, no, that is not true. I boss around my feelings, and then I say, no, I’m going to stand on the truth of God. What is the truth of God? Well, I recite some of those verses today, gosh right after my divorce I memorized Psalm 103 where he says that he redeems my life from the pit and crowns me with love and compassion like yes this is the truth and as I meditate on that the truth of the Lord and I and I take the heart Philippians 4 8 when thoughts come to my mind that are negative I’m like no I’m gonna dwell on whatever is noble and true and right and pure and lovely I’m gonna dwell on those things and It changes my entire perspective, my entire attitude. And I love Isaiah 43, 18 and 19. That is kind of my signature verse for pivoting. Let me just recite this juicy one for you. It’s delicious. Isaiah 43, 18 and 19. Forget the former things. Do not dwell on the past. See, I am doing a new thing. Now it springs up. Do you not perceive it? Isn’t that the best verse? It’s like, no matter what, trauma hits you in the past, a divorce, your husband cheating on you, death in the family, whatever it is. My son went to prison. I mean, these are horrific things, but you know what? God was not flabbergasted by any of those things. God didn’t say, oh no, what in the world can I do to make this right? It’s like, no. If we trust in the Lord, which I do with all my heart, and we grab hold of His hand, He says, this is not too difficult for me. I’ve got a plan to redeem absolutely everything just pivot from the past, take hold of my hand, and move forward. And that’s really the key, is letting go of the past. And I have to kick myself in the butt sometimes, like, stop thinking about the past, move forward, ask God to open up my eyes to new patterns, new adventures, new relationships. And I am telling you, despite all the junk that’s happened to me, and the grief, and the heartbreak, and the trauma, I have deep joy, and excitement in this season of life, because God is not done writing my story, and listeners, he’s not done writing your story either. There are new chapters to explore with him.
SPEAKER 04 :
Now, with your son, I mean, we don’t have to go into specifics, but was he in the household with you when you were in your victim mentality, and he was with your first husband? Because two of my four kids in our family, two went down the road. One was murdered, One was in and out of jail, not prison. And he’s currently in kind of a mental health facility. And then my other brother graduated near the top of his class at West Point Military Academy. And then I put myself through high school and college working seven days a week. And then my first job was at NBC in L.A. So he and I did well. And then we’re the two, of course, that take care of our mother now. I have probably. I mean, really, my mom is like my kid, to be honest with you. And I’ve taken care of her since I was we started her retirement account when I was 19. I think, you know, me putting money in her retirement account. She still draws on it in her 80s. The money I started putting away as a teenager with my brother for her. I mean, it’s so unusual that, you know, the way that we kind of thought she needed to be taken care of. Anyway, with that said, so do you think the upbringing, because my brothers were with my alcoholic abusive dad and my mom and her victim mode, so she doesn’t really step in when something’s going on in the house, like letting the kids smoke pot or whatever. She’s not going to step in. If he says, here, you should too, and then, oh, I should? Okay, well, if you and the kids are doing it, of course I should too. You know what I mean? Like there’s no, like, hey, I’m the mom, let’s not do this, because she didn’t feel she had any power. So with that said, do you think that impacted him? I’m not putting blame, by the way, I’m just saying.
SPEAKER 05 :
Oh, sure. I mean, when you grow up in a dysfunctional household, it definitely impacts you, and that’s why I have compassion on all sorts of people who are acting out.
SPEAKER 04 :
Me too.
SPEAKER 05 :
They come from brokenness, yes.
SPEAKER 04 :
Me too. Yes, yes.
SPEAKER 05 :
They should stay stuck there. But yes, I have compassion. And, you know, I’m still praying for him that he’s going to get completely healed by the Lord and completely turn around. And there are little baby steps forward here and there. But we all have that choice, right? And who are we going to believe, the whispers of the lies or the Holy Spirit saying, I have a plan for you? And it’s a good plan for a hope and a future right from Jeremiah 29. Like, I believe that. And so I can take a step forward with God’s help to move into that instead of dwelling on all the hurts from the past.
SPEAKER 04 :
You know, my brother that I’m the only one that has any contact with him. He calls me probably every, you know, every few months to leave me a message or reach out. He doesn’t have a phone, but he sometimes seems in different institutions and sometimes he’s heavily drugged so it’s he’s very difficult to um have a conversation with and then other times he’s semi almost normal but i tell his son because his son’s in his mid-20s he’s a scientist he’s very smart and i’ve always been very close with his son and um and we still have, you know, a relationship and I’m from time to time, I’ll say, you know, it’s not his fault, you know, the way he is. I know that you don’t, you kind of act like he’s dead, uh, but you know, forgive him for you because, you know, my dad did the same thing to me and forgiveness really helps you kind of move on from it. And, uh, my dad actually, we did reconcile after about 35 years and he ended up being a really fantastic grandfather. And he was a grandfather to my nephew too, because I said to him, you know, Hey, you know, Roy had a kid and, um, he’s not in his life, but you know, he’s really outstanding. He’s super bright and he’s being raised by a single mom and he reached out to him too. So he saw me, all the kids saw me forgive my dad. And by the way, my kids didn’t even know I had a father because I never had a bad thing to say about him because I didn’t have anything to say about him. Right. So I’d say at about eight, my son said, you know, do you have a dad? And I’m like, oh yeah, actually, you know, So they had no clue. So I think the three of them met him around maybe 10, 8, 7, something like that. And then they had a great relationship with him. I want to make sure people can find the book because you said there’s so many steps in Pivot, How to Break Free from Grief, Heartbreak, Past Abuse, and Resentment. Debbie Chavez, what’s the best way for people to reach you?
SPEAKER 05 :
Just go on Amazon, type in Debbie Chavez and it should pop up or Debbie Chavez Pivot. I learned that there are a thousand books named Pivot. So don’t just type in that. Just type in Debbie Chavez in Amazon and it’ll pop right up. And get a hold of it, because I go through so much about how to set up boundaries, if you do need boundaries with someone in your life, but how to use boundaries appropriately and how to do it biblically, what it really looks like to execute biblical forgiveness, which is not always reconciliation, but it is biblical forgiveness, how to get rid of resentment, how to detect lies of the enemy, all of those things that will help you move forward and actually find the joy and the peace and the healthier relationships that God wants you to enjoy.
SPEAKER 04 :
Well, Debbie, thank you so much. What a blessing to have you. And I just saw that we also have the, I was a news anchor for many years, and I see you were as well. So we’ll definitely have to have you on again to talk about all of that. Thanks, Debbie.
SPEAKER 05 :
Wonderful. Yes, blessings to you and your listeners.
SPEAKER 03 :
Thank you for listening to The Good News with Angie Austin on AM670 KLTT.
