In this thought-provoking episode, explore the distinction between believing in the deity of Christ, the Godhead, and the gift of everlasting life as presented in the Gospel of John. Bob and Ken engage with listener Mark’s challenging question, debating interpretations and the implications of key biblical verses. This discussion sheds light on the importance of context, the development of the early church as described in Acts, and the foundational Christian beliefs about salvation.
The following is a listener-supported ministry from the Grace Evangelical Society. When Jesus talks to the woman at the well in John 4 about the gift of God, what specifically is He talking about? Doesn’t God have lots of gifts for us? Let’s think about that today here on Grace In Focus. Thank you, friend, for joining us. This is a ministry of the Grace Evangelical Society. You can find out more about us at our website, faithalone.org. One thing we’d love to offer is our subscription-free magazine, also called Grace in Focus. It’s full of great articles, and you can have it for free if you live in the 48 contiguous United States. Otherwise, you only need to pay the postage. Find out details at faithalone.org. Now, with today’s question and answer discussion, here’s Bob Wilkin along with Ken Yates.
SPEAKER 02 :
We have a question here, Ken, from someone named Mark. And he’s asking about John chapter 4, verses 10 through 16. He says, Now, Ken, do you have your Bible there? What does John 4, 10 say?
SPEAKER 03 :
John 4.10, I’ll read it right here, Bob. It says, Jesus answered and said to her, if you knew the gift of God and who it is who says to you, give me a drink, you would have asked him and he would have given you living water. And so Mark is saying that the gift is the Holy Spirit. Am I understanding the question right?
SPEAKER 02 :
That’s right. He’s saying that the gift there is the Holy Spirit. And he cites several verses. He cites Acts 2, 38 and 39, Acts 8, 8 through 20, Acts 10, 47, and Hebrews 6, 4. I notice, however, he doesn’t cite any verses from John. He also doesn’t discuss John 4, 10 through 16. Isn’t it pretty clear in verse 14 that the gift is everlasting life? What does verse 14 say of John 4?
SPEAKER 03 :
Well, that’s where I was going to go as well. In verse 14, he says, and whoever drinks of the water that I shall give him, okay, there’s the verb, give him, will never thirst, but the water that I shall give him will become in him a fountain of water springing up into everlasting life. So it seems like that’s the gift, at least in John.
SPEAKER 02 :
Right. How about Ephesians 2, 8, and 9?
SPEAKER 03 :
For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God. And that’s obviously not in Ephesians 2.8.9, the Holy Spirit. I think part of the problem here is that there can be more than one gift, depending upon the context. You know, we’re given the Holy Spirit. We’re given a spiritual gift, for example. We’re given many things when we believe in Jesus Christ. The question here is in John 4, what is the gift? And that’s what you’re getting at as well.
SPEAKER 02 :
Right. Now, guess where this is going, though, Ken. You won’t believe it, because I haven’t read you the rest of the question yet.
SPEAKER 03 :
Oh, I cut you off. Okay, what’s the rest of the question?
SPEAKER 02 :
Okay, you didn’t cut me off. I’m just keeping this for suspense. You ready? Okay. He goes on to say, “…as always, the object of saving faith…” is the Godhead in all their various functions and not in a promise. To make the promise of everlasting life the object of saving faith is akin to making believing in the Lordship of Christ the object of saving faith. What do you think of that, Ken?
SPEAKER 03 :
So he’s saying that the object of saving faith is believing in the Godhead, and so that’s why he thinks that this is the Holy Spirit?
SPEAKER 02 :
And God the Father and God the Son.
SPEAKER 03 :
Oh, wow. Well, that’s reading a lot into John 4.10, I think. I would disagree with that.
SPEAKER 02 :
Yeah. I mean, you know, in John 4.10, if you knew the gift of God and who it is that says you give me a drink, well, the first, if that refers to the Holy Spirit, the second clearly refers to Jesus as Messiah.
SPEAKER 03 :
So Mark is saying, I mean, as I’m trying to follow the question, the gift there is the Holy Spirit, and he who is speaking is the Lord. That’s what he’s believing in. Now, does Mark mention where is the Father in that verse? So in John 4.10, we have, following Mark’s question here, we need to believe in two of the members of the Trinity there in John 4.10.
SPEAKER 02 :
Right. I don’t get it. But here’s the other thing. If it’s not believing in the promise, then what is John 3.16 all about?
SPEAKER 03 :
Yeah, and I mean, even with this conversation with the woman at the well here in John 4, if you knew the gift and who it was who was speaking to you, and later she says, the Christ, and he says, I who speak to you am he. So there’s, okay, he’s the Christ who gives eternal life. And those references all in Acts, I’m not sure how Mark is dispensationally, but in John 4, the Holy Spirit had not yet been given in the sense that he’s given in Acts chapter 2. So to read all these verses in Acts after the coming of the Holy Spirit and the birth of the church back into John chapter 4, that would not be appropriate, if I could use that word.
SPEAKER 02 :
I like what you’re saying. I agree. Jesus said the Holy Spirit has been with you, but he will be in you. Right. And Jesus had to leave before the Holy Spirit was permanently indwelling believers.
SPEAKER 03 :
And obviously something new happens in Acts 2, because Jesus tells the disciples to wait until the power from above comes upon them. So something new was happening in Acts 2, and obviously it’s the birth of the church. Right.
SPEAKER 01 :
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SPEAKER 03 :
And obviously something new happens in Acts 2 because Jesus tells the disciples to wait until the power from above comes upon them. And obviously it’s the birth of the church. So again, to take Acts 2, verse 38, and the other references that Mark has in Acts, and then also that passage in Hebrews, and say that’s what Jesus is saying to the woman at the well, that’s not the way to handle that text.
SPEAKER 02 :
This is kind of a variation on a question we’ve heard before. Haven’t we heard lots of people say, you don’t need to believe in the promise of eternal life. What you need to believe in is the deity of Christ, the death of Christ, and the resurrection of Christ. You ever heard that one, Ken?
SPEAKER 03 :
Yes, but it seems to me that the difference in Mark’s question is he’s saying that it’s the Holy Spirit that you believe in. Well, as he says, the Trinity, but here specifically the Holy Spirit.
SPEAKER 02 :
Well, he sees the Holy Spirit as the gift of God, but he sees what we need to believe to get the Holy Spirit, the entire Godhead.
SPEAKER 03 :
Right. And again, God the Father doesn’t seem to me, even if you read back the gift from Acts into John 4.10, that’s the Holy Spirit. It’s not the Father. I will say, and we’ve talked about this before, one of the things that… has always struck me about people who say you have to believe in the deity of Christ. Now, here Mark is saying the deity of the Holy Spirit and the deity of the Father as well, is they never define what that means. Let’s just take the deity of Christ. You must believe in the deity of Christ in order to be saved. That’s very, very common. Okay. Well, what do you mean by the deity of Christ? For example, Arius, he believed in the deity of Christ. You know, when they ask him, you know, oh, yeah, I believe Jesus is God, but he’s a created being.
SPEAKER 02 :
Okay. So now you’re talking about Arianism. Right. And that’s a heresy.
SPEAKER 03 :
Exactly. But he believed in the deity of Christ. Arius, who was the founder of Arianism, he believed in the deity of Christ. He believed he was a created God, God the Father. At least that’s my understanding. It’s been a while since I’ve read him, but when they asked, did he believe Jesus was God? Yes. In the same way, wouldn’t Mormons say that Jesus is God? Absolutely. And Jehovah Witnesses, right? A God. He is a God. And so it always frustrates me when I hear people say that, and I’ve never heard, at least me, I’ve never heard them define it. They may define it like this, Bob. They may define it, well, you have to believe that Jesus is a son of God. Well, that’s not helpful. Okay, I believe that he’s the son of God. Mormons believe he was the son of God. Jehovah Witnesses believe he was the son of God. Arius believes he was the son of God. the Jews, their concept of the Son of God was a Messiah, a human being who wasn’t God at all. You know, what did the centurion mean when he says, truly, this man was the Son of God? So if we’re going to say that’s what a person has to believe, we need to define that term. What do we mean by that?
SPEAKER 02 :
That’s a good point, Ken. And you know, the other part of it Couldn’t a person believe in the deity of Christ and the deity of the Father and the Holy Spirit, be Trinitarian, and yet not believe that by faith alone he has everlasting life?
SPEAKER 03 :
Well, sure, there’s plenty of people in the Catholic Church who believe that, right? I mean, there’s plenty of people who have a very sound doctrine of the Trinity, right? But they don’t believe in him for eternal life. They don’t believe they’re saved by grace. They believe they’re saved from the lake of fire through the graces that the church provides them as long as they continue to do them. And so I don’t know about you, Bob, but I don’t think I’ve ever read a gospel tract, even those written by people who say you have to believe in the deity of Christ, who explain it. At least I never have. Maybe there is a tract out there like that. But when I hear gospel presentations from people who say, well, you got to believe in the deity of Christ, I don’t ever remember them defining what that means.
SPEAKER 02 :
I’ll tell you, it’s worse than that, Ken, because I remember I was at a church in Mississippi and a young man came up and he was talking to the pastor and he said, Pastor, I came to faith in this church through your ministry while I was a college student. He goes, oh, fantastic. And he said, but pastor, I didn’t know that Jesus was God when I believed in him for my eternal salvation. And the pastor said, what do you mean? He said, well, I believed he was the son of God. And the pastor said, right, he is. And he said, yeah, but I thought God had a son and that son was born in Bethlehem and that son became God. And so he was the son of God.
SPEAKER 03 :
And I will guarantee you that every kid that’s ever come to faith believes some kind of version of that. Right. You know, and so these guys will say, oh, yeah, my son was saved when he was eight years old. Well, what did that eight year old believe and understand about the deity of Christ? What you just described, that’s what he believed by the son of God.
SPEAKER 02 :
Well, we better wrap this up, Ken, because we’re out of time. But I think what we can point out is if people don’t believe in Jesus for what he promises, which is everlasting life, they’ve not yet believed the gift of God and they’ve not yet been born again.
SPEAKER 03 :
And the gift in John 4, 10 is not the Holy Spirit. Amen. It is the gift of eternal life.
SPEAKER 02 :
Well, thanks, Mark, for your question. And thank you, Ken. And Ken, let’s keep grace in focus.
SPEAKER 01 :
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