Join Dr. James Dobson’s Family Talk as we explore the courageous stories shared by Grammy-nominated artist Nicole C. Mullen. In this episode, Nicole discusses her new book ‘It’s Never Wrong to Do the Right Thing’, which delves into the lives of biblical heroes who made godly decisions in challenging circumstances. Nicole shares her own experiences with adoption and fostering, highlighting how these choices have enriched her family’s life.
00:22:11 Promoting Nicole’s Book and Final Thoughts
SPEAKER 02 :
Well, hello, everyone. I’m James Dobson, and you’re listening to Family Talk, a listener-supported ministry. In fact, thank you so much for being part of that support for James Dobson Family Institute. Welcome to Dr. James Dobson’s Family Talk. I’m Roger Marsh. As parents and spouses, we face countless decisions every day that test our character and our faith. Should we speak up when we see something wrong? How do we respond when our children make mistakes? And what do we do when following God’s way seems to put us at risk? Well, today here on Family Talk, we’re continuing our conversation with Grammy-nominated artist Nicole C. Mullen about her brand new book called It’s Never Wrong to Do the Right Thing, Courageous Stories to Inspire Godly Decisions. Now, you may know Nicole best for her powerful song called Redeemer, but she’s also a devoted Bible student who finds deep encouragement in the stories of biblical heroes who demonstrated remarkable courage. In today’s discussion, Nicole will share practical wisdom from women like Hannah, who learned to truly release her burdens to God, and Abigail, who had to make difficult decisions to protect her family. Nicole will also open up about her own family and how they have modeled courage through adoption and foster care. So let’s rejoin our conversation right now on today’s edition of Family Talk.
SPEAKER 01 :
My 22-year-old son and I, we had a conversation yesterday and we were talking about how the Lord disciplines those that he loves. And sometimes in that discipline, you have to remove certain things. Sometimes that discipline, or most of the time, the discipline doesn’t feel fine. But it’s something that will yield great fruit in the future if we surrender to what the Lord has for us and what he is doing to us and in us. And my son reminded me of something, Roger, that I would do to him back in the day. And I remember he and his brother one time they had gotten into it and they were younger. And my youngest son had said something to his older brother that wasn’t nice. Yeah. And I stopped and I said, Lord, what do I do? I just had one of those moments. What do I do? Because I was so frustrated. And, you know, I didn’t I never wanted to discipline my children out of frustration, you know, because my parents didn’t do that to us. And so I felt like the Lord told me to tell him to get the Bible, go in the other room and read it until something speaks to him. Now, I had never done this before, but I said to him, I said, okay, Josiah, get the Bible. And so he was like, well, what am I going to read? I said, I don’t know. And I’m thinking, Lord, what is he going to read? Because you didn’t tell me that part. You didn’t tell me that part. And so he went into the other room. Yes, ma’am. He got the Bible, went into the other room. stayed for about 10, 15 minutes. And then he came out and I said, you know, what did you read? Did you read something? And he said, well, I did, but I don’t know. I read something about not saying bad stuff to other people and watching your temper and, you know, and he just started quoting. I said, hold up. did you just see that the Lord spoke to you? You understand that the Lord, you know, a lot of times we want to hear his voice and he speaks all the time, read his word. And so he began to declare what the Lord had said to him at around the age of nine or 10 through the word. And so he and I, we recalled that yesterday because sometimes the discipline of the Lord doesn’t feel good. The things he calls us to do may feel like, why am I doing this? This matters not. But in the long run, it does. And now my 22 year old son, knows that he can go to the word for answers, that the Lord will speak to him when he opens the book and when he asks, and that he too, he’s called to walk it out.
SPEAKER 02 :
That’s a wonderful story and a great recapitulation of something that he learned at age of nine and now at age 22. You can see where you sowed the seed, not knowing what God was going to do with it and to see how it all came back. And it’s just, it’s so encouraging as parents to see that. And Dr. Dobson would be so proud of you, Nicole, by the way, for not disciplining when you’re angry. I mean, that’s kind of good parenting 101.
SPEAKER 01 :
My parents passed that on to me, so I’m grateful for that.
SPEAKER 02 :
Yes, they have great wisdom. Nicole C. Mullen is with us today here on Dr. James Dobson’s Family Talk. Her brand new book is called It’s Never Wrong to Do the Right Thing, Courageous Stories to Inspire Godly Decisions. And we’ve got a link for the book at drjamesdobson.org. One of the things that I appreciated about this book a lot, Nicole, is the fact that when you talk about profiles of biblical character, and there’s Daniel and David, all these different people who we always know, for the most part, well, David, maybe not so much, but… always did the right thing or they they stood up in the face of danger but you also chose some stories to spotlight of women who were really facing some serious trials I mean like the consequences like Rahab or I think about Abigail you know and in her first marriage just kind of being married to a real dolt and knowing that they could have all been wiped out if she didn’t say hey let me go make some things and make it right with David because that was my girl Abigail is my girl and And all the women are saying, yeah, I had to do that a couple of times too. But talk about why it’s so important for these stories to help modern women, you know, moms, wives, they’re really in the trenches on this. And they may be in that kind of goofy marriage, if you will, where they’re saying, hey, I’m trying to raise godly children. I’m trying to be a godly wife, but I’m married to a ding dong and this may not go well for me. It could have some serious consequences if I don’t act in a godly fashion.
SPEAKER 01 :
Yeah. Great, great question. Thank you for that. Abigail is definitely one of those people who show us how to do it well. And I call her one of my sheroes. And I say often that if we were on the earth at the same time, I would definitely be liking and following her on all the platforms. Yeah, yeah. But you’re right. She did. She was married to somebody that the Bible says he was mean and he was, you know, pretty much stingy and he had a bad attitude and he was described as being foolish in his deeds. And she was described as being beautiful and intelligent and, you know, a godly woman. And you’re like, OK, this unlikely pair. But we also see in the midst of that, she still showed a measure of respect toward him. even though she didn’t agree with his deeds and she had to run interference on behalf of her family. So there are times that we as women, we may say, OK, Lord, help me to respect and honor. But still, I might not be able to follow in the direction of something that is wrong from the leader of the home. And so Abigail, she had to run and seek help. For the safety of her home. And I’ve had to run in to seek help for the safety of my home at times. And I thank God for good pastors. I thank God for great counsel. I thank God for even an Abigail story. She had a man like David that she was able to run to and say, hey, let me make this right. She had to make some things right. And I kind of contrast her a little bit in my heart with when we see in the New Testament, Ananias and Sapphira, we have the opposite. So her husband was doing something that was detrimental to not just their health, but it was blasphemous against the Lord. And instead of her saying, this is wrong, I’m not going to side with the wrong. and I’m going to do right instead. She decided to follow in the path of her husband that was a path of wickedness. So if we see that there’s wickedness going on, if we see that there is danger in a way that will bring harm to us and the family, we as godly women, we’ve got to say something. We’ve got to stand up. We’ve got to appeal to God first and then go to the help that he has provided for us. You know, if you’re being physically abused, If there are some things that are putting you in danger, if there are some things that you know are immoral, then you have a responsibility as a woman of God to do it in a loving manner, but to seek help and to seek safety for you and your household. And Abigail is a great example of that.
SPEAKER 02 :
Yeah, and doing so in a God-honoring way, understanding that you want to honor biblical marriage. You want to honor parent-child relationships, that type of thing, too. You honor your father and mother. It’s the first commandment with a promise. But it doesn’t necessarily mean you have to go along with bad behavior. It certainly doesn’t mean you put yourself in harm’s way. And you think about how the world would be different if Abigail had come up like her husband did and said, yeah, what he said. Oh, yikes.
SPEAKER 01 :
Yikes!
SPEAKER 02 :
We would be singing a different song about Abigail and Ananias and Sapphira if they had just been non-deceitful. But it’s interesting how that one decision could really set the tone and change the trajectory. And one of the things you write about, and it’s never wrong to do the right thing, is courageous stories that will inspire godly decisions. And the idea that you look at this and say, well, wait a minute, if Abigail could get it right, if Rahab could get it right. And everyone still says, you know, Rahab, her profession.
SPEAKER 01 :
But I love Rahab.
SPEAKER 02 :
Yeah. Not denying who she was, but because she made that right decision, God said, I see what you did. I see you.
SPEAKER 01 :
Absolutely. It is about those right decisions in the midst of the wrong. I don’t think God is always going to change the wrong around us, but he wants to make us right in it. And so I love the fact that, you know, again, like you’re saying, Abigail, she ran for help. Abigail was like, I’m going to intercede for my family. It may not have even looked right at the time because she didn’t tell her husband what she was doing. You know, he was he was over there partying. He was still like, I don’t know if he had what he who was at his party with him, but it wasn’t his wife. And so while he’s partying, she’s like, I’m going to make sure that our house stays intact because you’re bringing danger. You’re bringing death into our situation. And at the end of the day, God is the one who brought justice for her. And sometimes those one right decisions, they don’t feel so special in the moment, Roger. But they are life changing. in the end. And that’s what we’re called to do. And that’s who we’re called to be.
SPEAKER 02 :
Nicole C. Mullen is our guest today here on Dr. James Dobson’s Family Talk. I’m Roger Marsh. Her brand new book is called It’s Never Wrong to Do the Right Thing, Courageous Stories to Inspire Godly Decisions. And I could see moms reading this story with their kids. I could see dads doing the same thing, too. I mean, but especially for, as you mentioned, the shero part of angle of this book, Nicole, I can see where a mom would pour into the lives of her children. Is there an age limit, do you think? I mean, is this the kind of book you could start reading to your kids as soon as they can pay attention? absolutely you can start reading it to them asap four or five three absolutely yeah well when you’re lying down and rising up i mean literally everything that you’re doing we should be teaching our kids about faith now one of the things that is also something that i appreciate about this too because you know sometimes when we write a story like this it’s either all bible study and here’s 10 examples and 15 principles or this that and the other thing or it’s more of a biographical piece and What you’ve done in this new book, It’s Never Wrong to Do the Right Thing, is to kind of weave both of those together. Talk about the family members, extended family members who have inspired you that you include in the book, that you talk about maybe one or two examples of how you saw this lived out, not just in a long time ago in a galaxy far away in scripture, but right in front of you in your own home, in your own neighborhood.
SPEAKER 01 :
Absolutely. I was blessed to have some wonderful parents, like I said, and wonderful grandparents. And I was able to write about my grandmother, Betsy, and my mom.
SPEAKER 02 :
You dedicate the book to her.
SPEAKER 01 :
Absolutely. Betsy Coleman. And my mom, you know, a Chironé mom. And I believe my mom wears a secret S on her chest. And you know what I’m talking about. She is definitely the Proverbs 31. And so we highlight some of those things. But it’s also… And I don’t think she’s just a woman who has shoes that are impossible to feel, but she’s someone who says, I’m inviting you to step into them and walk in the way that I’m walking. Follow me as I follow Christ. But I also want to bring up another story to Roger, and that’s the one of Elizabeth Freeman. Oh, yeah. And I didn’t know her story until I was asked to play her part in the movie The American Miracle. If you haven’t seen it, you can look it up and watch it. You’ll love it. But I think especially, Roger, in a day and a culture where we are always being baited to hate each other and to, you know, you got black against white and remember the past and, you know, everything seems to be negative. And I’m compelled to. To do what it says in Philippians 4, 8, he says, whatsoever is good, true, lovely, noble, just think of these things. That doesn’t mean we ignore everything. But what I focus on is what will be magnified. And so my point is, is here you have this woman. And she was in the 1700s and she was a slave in Massachusetts and she appealed for her freedom. She went to a lawyer who was actually a white male. She was before an all white jury and a white judge. And they granted her her freedom as an African-American slave. we don’t hear about these stories you know what i’m saying these type of stories i believe are stories of healing of hope of justice of good and i believe these are things that we are called to find to seek out to model and to put up on a pedestal and say good exists so let’s be like this this is the standard that we are to aim for and so you know um i am grateful for all the hues of the rainbow that are a part of the body of Christ. I’m grateful for the hues that God made in mankind. He did not apologize when he made us different shades or different ethnicities or different languages. He did it on purpose because he loves beauty and he loves variety. And I want us to love and to appreciate that too. And at the same time, remember that there are certain things that we cannot have, we will not have, that have been paid for for us. They won’t be ours unless we ask, unless we initiate it by saying, I’m making a request. And so Elizabeth was one of those people who did that. You’ll have to read the book for the details.
SPEAKER 02 :
Yes, read the book and see the movie.
SPEAKER 01 :
And see the movie, absolutely.
SPEAKER 02 :
Yeah, we highly recommend it. Nicole C. Mullen’s new book is called It’s Never Wrong to Do the Right Thing. We’ve got that up at drjamesdobson.org, and it’s filled with these stories of the heroes and the sheroes and people that she knew and people that she met along the way. One of the things you do write about in this book, you talk about the subject of life. You know, just how it matters. And you talk about adoption, fostering, how it’s impacted your family, your extended family, your immediate family. Walk us through that, why that’s important to say it’s never wrong to do the right thing. And this is one area where you can really see that come to fruition.
SPEAKER 01 :
Absolutely. Life matters from the womb to the tomb because life is a God idea. It’s not a political idea. It’s God’s idea. He created it. And then he also tells us, hey, I’m setting before you life and death. I’m going to whisper to your ear and give you the answer. Choose life. You know what I’m saying? And so it’s his idea. And so I love… Even the men and women that I’ve seen in scripture that fight for it, there’s some sheroes who do that. But also in my own life, my grandparents were models of that. They never sat down with us necessarily, Roger, and gave us the talk on pro-life, pro-choice. We have a choice either way. It’s pro-life and pro-death, really. But that’s holding the other. But at the same time, I will say this, that if people have participated in the extermination of life, there’s forgiveness where there’s repentance. God will forgive. So just so you know that. So this is not a shade conversation. But my grandparents, they became foster parents and they began to foster children. And then before they knew it, they began to adopt children. And so I have lots of aunts and uncles and cousins that are family by adoption. And then my parents. When I was growing up, they would take in foster children as well. And then they adopted a sibling set. So I have a brother and a sister that are my brother and sister by adoption. And then as I grew up, you know, my sister began to foster kids. And then I had kids that would come into my home as well. And, you know, we decided that we were going to adopt. And so my oldest son, the only one of my three children that looks just like me, is adopted he’s the only one you would never guess in a million years never the other two people are always guessing are they your real kids yes they’re my real kids you know but the one exactly but the one who’s adopted never and so and he and his wife now they want to continue their family and increase their family through the beauty of doing the same and so god You know, he instills in us the value of life. And I believe a part of the way that we can stand up for life is to include other little ones into our families and into our circles. And so I’m grateful for the legacy that was passed on to me.
SPEAKER 02 :
I think that the modeling, I mean, that’s the recurring theme through all of this is someone demonstrated that for you. Someone took the time to be intentional. And you spoke a mouthful about what your grandparents did and didn’t tell you about the sanctity of human life. They lived it. So you could watch them living it out. And I think a lot of times there’s so many people who get caught up on the, well, I heard this sermon one time, or I saw this news report or this, that, and the other thing. And it’s just people with words. It’s not really who they are and what they’re actually doing. And I think the beauty of this new book by Nicole C. Mullen, It’s Never Wrong to Do the Right Thing, Courageous Stories to Inspire Godly Decisions, is you can read it and know that it’s not manipulated. It’s just, this is the vehicle that you’re, this is the platform you’re using to share this. Yeah. It’s very encouraging. What did you learn? I mean, there’s always that discovery part, right, for an author. You start out saying, I’ve got an outline. This is what we pitched the publisher. They said, give us this book and we’ll print it. And then you start going on this journey. What did you discover as you were writing this book about your faith? What was reinforced? Where did God kind of mess you up in a good way?
SPEAKER 01 :
Wow. Wow. Great question. You know, Roger, I believe that my one of my biggest takeaways was and is, is that we’re continually a work in progress and that I will continue to have to make the right decision. I don’t it’s not a I made the right decision once upon a time. And so today I get a pass and I can do whatever. No, every day I have to choose, even in the little things, to do the right thing. And that is the right thing that honors God. You know, the Bible tells us to seek first his kingdom and his righteousness, his right way of doing things, his right standing with the Father. He said, if we do that, then everything else we need will be added to us. And so in this stage, I’m realizing again, I’m still a work in progress. Life is messy. You know, sometimes relationships are messy, but God is good. And I don’t think the aim is always to tell us what to do as much as it is how to do. And the how to do is biblically. That applies to any and every situation that we find ourselves. And I don’t think we will fully arrive. I know we won’t until we actually see Jesus face to face. But in the meantime, we are called to go from glory to glory to glory to glory. And that’s one right decision after another as we’re following the Savior.
SPEAKER 02 :
Yeah, just keep making the next right decision. And that’s where the growth comes in. The book is called It’s Never Wrong to Do the Right Thing by Nicole C. Mullen. Part of that great heritage is of contemporary Christian artists who are known as much by their middle names as by their first and last. I was thinking you’re in the Michael W. Smith, Stephen Curtis Chapman category as well. And maybe for next time you come back on the program, we can talk about the sea and why it’s so important to you. But as we wrap things up here, I did want to ask you to give our constituents some hope. Because there are people listening, especially some women who are listening to us right now, who are saying, you know, Nicole, I’m glad you found this. I’m glad you had this modeled for you from your parents and grandparents. And now your kids are carrying on this tradition. And we think that’s great. But I’ve made some decisions in the past, and I don’t think I can move past them. You know, I mean, I want to be courageous, but I keep listening to that, you know, well, but what about this time? And what about that time? Yeah. What word of hope and encouragement do you have to the listener right now who’s saying, I want to believe and I want to follow that example that you’re setting for me, but?
SPEAKER 01 :
I want to say, sis, bro, but I’m talking to my sisters especially, that borrowed hope is still hope. Borrowed joy is still joy. So sometimes when you feel like you don’t have it on your own, you can borrow it from the stories of other people. The Bible says that faith, if you feel like you don’t have faith, you feel like I don’t have what it takes to do the right thing or make the right move. It says that faith cometh by hearing, And hearing comes by the word of God. And so the more you hear the goodness of God, the more you take in the word of God, the more your faith will grow and you’ll be transformed. And so, again, he’s calling you. He’s calling me not to conform to. to the pattern of this world, and that’s to shrink back. Let’s not just stay stuck or say, I can’t. But let’s be transformed. He wants to transform you into something great, into something new. And he wants to give you a blueprint to say, hey, these are ways that you can actually do that. Because he wants us to be transformed by the renewing of our minds. And so when we change our minds and we change our mindset, then we can change who we identify as being. And then our identity changes. And then before we know it, our activity changes. And as our activity changes, then sis, your destiny is going to change as well.
SPEAKER 02 :
Great words of wisdom from Nicole C. Mullen. The brand new book is called It’s Never Wrong to Do the Right Thing, Courageous Stories to Inspire Godly Decisions. We’ve got a link for the book up at drjamesdobson.org. And go see American Miracle and learn more about Elizabeth Freeman. It’s a great performance by Nicole C. Mullen in that film as well that just came out. And we highly recommend that one as well. Nicole, thank you for your gift of music, for your gift of writing, for the great way that you communicate these biblical truths today. and encourage so many people. And thank you for being with us today here on Dr. James Dobson’s Family Talk.
SPEAKER 01 :
Thank you for having me.
SPEAKER 02 :
Transformation begins with changing our minds. And when our mindset shifts, everything else follows. Our identity, our activity, and ultimately, our destiny. You’ve been listening to Dr. James Dobson’s Family Talk and an inspiring conversation featuring Grammy-nominated artist and author Nicole C. Mullen. Now, if you missed any portion of today’s broadcast, or if you’d like to go back and hear part one, review both parts one and two together, you can do so when you go to drjamesdobson.org forward slash family talk. By the way, once you’re there, you’ll also find information about Nicole’s brand new book that just came out. It’s called It’s Never Wrong to Do the Right Thing, Courageous Stories to Inspire Godly Decisions. And speaking of making godly decisions, one of the most important choices we make as parents is how we raise our children with both love and boundaries. If you’re looking for practical wisdom on this crucial balance, I want to invite you to sign up for our brand new free email series. It’s called Raising Kids with Love and Limits. Now the content of this series draws from the timeless principles in Dr. Dobson’s Complete Marriage and Family Reference Guide, offering you biblical insights on discipline, communication, and nurturing strong family relationships. So whether you’re dealing with toddler tantrums or teenage challenges, these emails will equip you with tools to guide your children with both grace and firmness. And by the way, grandparents, this is a good one for you to sign up for as well. To join in this adventure, the Raising Kids with Love and Limits email series, go to drjamesdobson.org and look for the Raising Kids with Love and Limits email series icon. That’s drjamesdobson.org. The heart of what we do through the Dr. James Dobson Family Institute centers on one simple truth. Families thrive when they’re built on biblical foundations. Every day, we remain committed to preserving and promoting the institution of the family through broadcasts like this one— You can make a secure donation when you go to drjamesdobson.org. That’s drjamesdobson.org. You can also make a contribution over the phone. Contact a member of our constituent care team right now when you call 877-732-6825. That’s 877-732-6825. Or if you’d like to send your donation through the U.S. Postal Service, our ministry mailing address is Dr. James Dobson’s Family Talk. Post Office Box 39000, Colorado Springs, Colorado. The zip code 80949. And when you send in that tax-deductible donation, keep in mind that we would also love to receive your thoughts and your prayers written out in a card or in a letter form. We’ve been receiving thousands of notes for the Dobson family on the passing of Dr. James Dobson just a month ago. And I know his wife, Shirley, daughter, Danae, and son, Ryan, would really love to hear your words of encouragement on how Dr. Dobson has impacted your life through this ministry. So again, you can write to us at P.O. Box 39000, Colorado Springs, Colorado, the zip code 80949. Well, I’m Roger Marsh, and on behalf of everyone here at the James Dobson Family Institute, thanks so much for listening today. Be sure to join us again next time right here for another edition of Dr. James Dobson’s Family Talk, the voice you can still trust for the family you love. This has been a presentation of the Dr. James Dobson Family Institute.
