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Today’s episode also explores international tensions, from Israel’s aggressive stance towards Hamas, and the EU’s response, to President Trump’s historic visit to the UK. As tensions rise in Gaza and Turkish influences come into scrutiny, Congressman Keith Self provides his perspective on the unfolding events. Don’t miss an enlightening conversation on the Dobbs decision’s impact on abortion laws and the murky world of online gaming’s influence on real-world aggression.
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From the heart of our nation’s capital in Washington, D.C., bringing compelling interviews, insightful analysis, taking you beyond the headlines and soundbites into conversations with our nation’s leaders and newsmakers, all from a biblical worldview, Washington Watch with Tony Perkins starts now.
SPEAKER 14 :
Arctic Frost wasn’t just a case to politically investigate Trump. It was the vehicle by which partisan FBI agents and Department of Justice prosecutors could achieve their partisan ends and improperly investigate the entire Republican political apparatus.
SPEAKER 17 :
That was Senator Chuck Grassley at yesterday’s Senate Judiciary Oversight hearing, citing newly released records that the FBI’s Arctic Frost investigation swept up at least 92 Republican-aligned organizations and individuals under the banner of post-2020 election inquiries. Welcome to this September 17th edition of Washington Watch. I’m your host, Tony Perkins. Thanks so much for tuning in. Well, coming up this afternoon, what the new Arctic frost disclosures actually show and what Congress should do next is the question. House Judiciary Committee member Harriet Hageman will weigh in. President Trump, his state visit to the U.K. and the emerging tech and trade agenda behind it. We’ll discuss that as well with Peter McIlvenna of Hearts of Oaks. He joins us from London a little bit later. And Brussels moves to suspend preferential trade treatment for Israeli goods as the IDF presses its offensive in Gaza City. Congressman Keith Self of Texas will join us. And after the assassination of Charlie Kirk, the suspect’s online footprint, steeped in meme culture and gaming references, rekindles the debate over the virtual digital world and how it is desensitizing individuals to violence. Author Reagan Rose will join me later. Well, today is Constitution Day, a reminder that our God-given rights are recognized and protected by our Constitution, a unique document in the history of man. The First Amendment secures the freedom to live out our faith openly. It’s an amendment that we cherish as Americans, especially as Christians. But as we often discuss on this program, there are constant efforts to restrict those freedoms. The price of liberty is eternal vigilance. Well, let’s turn to our first story. Newly released records raise serious questions about political bias at the FBI. According to documents released by Senators Grassley and Ron Johnson, the Bureau’s Arctic Frost Probe cast a wide net. 92 Republican-aligned groups and individuals were caught in that net. Joining me now is Washington Stand reporter Casey Harper. So, Casey, what do we know from these records? Just how broad was this?
SPEAKER 09 :
Yeah, thank you, Tony. This is a concerning new report that shows the FBI’s investigation into President Trump after the 2020 election was far wider than we previously knew. So to answer your question, the Biden administration reportedly targeted 92 right-leaning groups and individuals, which includes Turning Point USA, as well as the RNC and others. Now records released by Senators Chuck Grassley and Ron Johnson reveal that the investigation, which as you said is called Arctic Frost, dug into communications and financial records of pro-Trump conservatives, all under the claim of searching for election conspiracy efforts.
SPEAKER 14 :
Specifically, the documents show its scope expanded to include 92 Republican organizations. From evidence that I’ve seen, it looks to me like another political hit job against Republicans.
SPEAKER 09 :
Senator Grassley there, he went on to say it wasn’t just about Trump. It was a politically driven effort to go after the broader conservative movement, which of course is raising serious concerns about government overreach, political bias, and how far federal agencies have strayed from their constitutional mission, Tony.
SPEAKER 17 :
You know, Casey, that sounds very similar to what we saw with COVID as well under the Biden administration and how they used various government entities to probe those who did not go along with the government’s plan on COVID. Let’s pivot to the assassination of Charlie Kirk. Prosecutors have charged 22-year-old Tyler Robinson. with aggravated murder and say they will seek the death penalty. Court filings and reporting describe meme-laced messages and even gaming references, which has reopened debate about online culture and desensitization of those who play. We’re going to explore that later. with Reagan Rose. Turning overseas, Casey, President Trump is in the UK for a state visit and high-level talks, including a tech-focused PAC announced this week. We’re going to break that down as well with Peter McElvain. What’s the latest on that, Casey?
SPEAKER 09 :
The latest on the Israel story is that, you know, responding to Israel’s efforts recently to defend itself from Hamas, the EU announced a new round of sanctions against Tel Aviv. Now, this is a pretty interesting point now. And it’s interesting because the European Commission has proposed suspending free trade benefits for Israeli goods as they push into Gaza City. This follows those sanctions that I just referenced.
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The Israeli government’s push into Gaza City is a new escalation of the war and will further deepen the humanitarian crisis. Today I presented a robust package of sanctions of Hamas terrorists, extremist ministers in the Israeli government and violent settlers and entities supporting the impunity going on in the West Bank.
SPEAKER 09 :
Now that clip was EU foreign policy chief, Kai Akalis. Still, there is concern, Tony, that this message, that this could send the wrong message for Israel and for its allies as it fights this ongoing war against terrorists.
SPEAKER 17 :
All right. Thanks, Casey. Appreciate it. We’re going to turn now to explore this a little bit further with what’s happening about what’s happening in Gaza City with Congressman Keith Self from Texas, who served our country for 25 years before retiring with the rank of lieutenant colonel. Today’s a member of three House committees, including the Foreign Affairs Committee. He represents the third congressional district of Texas. Congressman Self, welcome back to Washington Watch. Thanks so much for joining us.
SPEAKER 19 :
Great to be here with you, Tony. Thank you.
SPEAKER 17 :
I want to get to the topic of Turkey here in just a moment, but the news today focusing on Israel and their continued effort to go after Hamas in Gaza City, more refugees leaving, but then we have the EU taking actions against them. What’s the latest?
SPEAKER 19 :
Well, the latest is that Israel’s been very clear. They dropped leaflets telling people they’ve opened a new corridor to leave the zone that they were going to have new combat operations in. But nothing has changed with Hamas. It’s very clear. If Hamas releases the hostages, dead and alive, and if they will surrender, this war would be over. They are effectively using both their infrastructure and the Palestinians as human shields, infrastructure shields. This needs to stop. Hamas needs to do what they need to do.
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Yesterday, U.S. Secretary of State Marco Rubio visited Qatar, reaffirming America’s support for the Gulf ally as the region kind of reels from last week’s Israeli strike on Hamas negotiators in Doha. Now, before leaving Israel for Qatar, Secretary Rubio reiterated America’s unwavering support for Israel’s offensive in Gaza. So what do you make of how the Trump administration is handling the latest developments?
SPEAKER 19 :
Well, they want allies on both sides. Our largest air base in the Middle East is in Qatar. Obviously, our support for Israel is unwavering. They want to get the Abraham Accords expanded. So this is an all-government approach to peace in the Middle East. But Hamas is the main sticking point now. You don’t hear a lot from the other Iranian militias, Hezbollah, so forth, right now. So if Hamas would do what they need to do, President Trump would be successful bringing peace to the Middle East.
SPEAKER 17 :
Okay, Congressman Self, let’s talk a little bit about what might be fueling some of the unrest in there. It could be one of our own allies in NATO. Turkey has been supportive of Hamas today. The House Foreign Affairs Committee had a markup on a bipartisan standalone State Department reauthorization, and you actually addressed this issue of Turkey and concern. Tell us why you’re concerned about Turkey and what you are attempting to do.
SPEAKER 19 :
Well, I have an amendment. We have not yet addressed it. It’s still coming, but what I will say is we need to make sure that whatever we sell to Turkey in military weaponry, it does not erode the qualitative military edge that U.S. law affords Israel. That’s all it says. Let’s just make sure that we are not eroding Israel’s military edge. But I also have an amendment on the NDAA that says we need to make sure that Turkey is not harboring or supporting Hamas inside Turkey. So as the chair of the Europe subcommittee, I am very concerned about Turkey’s actions vis-a-vis Israel.
SPEAKER 17 :
Currently, the United States has had a hold on the sale of certain fighter jets to Turkey because they’re playing along with Russia. They’re getting their anti-air defense mechanisms from Russia. It appears that they’re a NATO ally, but they’re playing both sides.
SPEAKER 19 :
Well, they are a very important NATO ally. They have the second largest army in NATO. They do participate in NATO operations. So they’re a valued ally, but they need to decide, are they going to be a European NATO ally? Are they going to play in Syria? Are they going to play with Hamas? So Turkey needs to decide. We held a hearing on this whole issue, on the Turkey issue. I encourage Turkey to decide to be a strategic ally in NATO to actually advance NATO priorities, which is peace in the Middle East.
SPEAKER 17 :
But given the unrest that they kind of fomented there in Syria, I mean, it was a place that was already troubled, but they’re very much linked to what has happened there. And in many ways, it appears that they’re positioning themselves against Israel, even in Syria.
SPEAKER 19 :
Well, they are. Turkey and Israel, there is a vacuum in Syria today. We still don’t know if this head of government in Syria is going to be successful. So this is the international play. In Syria today, is Turkey or Israel going to find common ground to make decisions A stable Syria. I won’t say peace, but at least a stable Syria. They need to do that. That’s an important issue. And back to your air defense system. Turkey has said they’re not selling the 400 system that they got from Russia. And as long as they don’t, the U.S. should not provide them F-35s.
SPEAKER 17 :
One final question for you, Congressman Self. I think another amendment that you offered, I think it was on the NDAA, may have been in the foreign authorization, was regarding U.S. Commission on International Religious Freedom, which I previously served as chairman on. You’re asking the State Department to kind of answer questions as to why they are not responding to or going along with what the commission is recommending when it comes to countries of particular concern, those that violate religious freedom rights.
SPEAKER 19 :
That’s right. They’re not acting. All I want them to do is to tell us why they are not acting on recommendations on countries of particular concern. Those are the countries that we believe are threatening religious freedom, are going against religious freedom. I simply want them to tell us why they are not acting as they should under U.S. law.
SPEAKER 17 :
It is a creation of Congress. That is why Congress created it. It reports to both Congress, the State Department and the administration. But I would like to see those answers because I know that during my tenure, we were able to get Nigeria listed as a country of particular concern. That was reversed by the Biden administration. And that has we’ve not seen that reenacted under the Trump administration. So I hope you’ll share those answers with us when you get them. Absolutely. Be happy to. All right. Congressman Keith Self, thanks so much for joining us. Always great to see you. Thank you, Tony. It is important. It is a function of identifying those countries that refuse to protect religious freedom and in some cases actually are hostile toward religious freedom. And it affects how we deal with it. In fact, Turkey is one of those. All right. Coming up next, we’re going to discuss President Trump’s historic second state visit to the U.K. So don’t go away.
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Three years ago, the Supreme Court issued its historic Dobbs decision, a ruling that overturned Roe versus Wade, which for nearly 50 years imposed abortion on demand, silencing voters and bypassing the democratic process across the country. The Dobbs decision was a huge step forward against abortion, but it didn’t outright ban it. It returned the power to the people. Now, 29 states have laws on the books protecting life. However, there’s a catch. Abortion numbers since Dobbs have actually gone up with an increase of 12% since 2020, climbing from 930,000 to over 1 million in each of the most recent years. So how can this be? The answer is simple, the abortion drug. Today, over 60% of US abortions involve abortion drugs, many of these without medical oversight. In 2021, the Biden administration quietly removed bare minimum longstanding safety protocols for the abortion drug that have existed for 20 years to protect women from life-threatening risks and ensuring informed consent. The Biden DOJ then declared that they would not enforce the Comstock Act, which prevents the mailing of anything that causes an abortion. This is not only illegal, but also dangerous. A study shows nearly 11% of women who take the abortion drug end up in the emergency room with serious complications. Unless the Trump administration reverses these reckless Biden-era policies, pro-life laws will remain largely symbolic. Without a full review and repeal of Mifepristone, unborn lives will remain in grave danger, and pregnant mothers will remain at risk. Let’s stand for life and end this mail-order abortion drug pipeline. Sign the petition urging the Trump administration to take action at frc.org slash stop chemical abortion.
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In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God, and the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we have seen His glory. Family Research Council invites you to join our Stand on the Word Bible reading plan as we reflect upon the life of Jesus, the Word who dwelt among us. Come with us and discover the glory of the Word. Read the Gospels and witness the life-changing story of Jesus, His life, death, and resurrection. Come read how Jesus transformed the lives of common people and how those same people transformed the known world through the power of the Holy Spirit. Come with us for 10 to 15 minutes a day and read the entire New Testament before the new year. Find our Bible reading plan in daily devotionals from Tony Perkins at frc.org slash Bible. Join us in Stand on the Word.
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Welcome back to Washington Watch. Thanks so much for tuning in. You can find out more about Washington Watch at TonyPerkins.com or you can download the Stand Firm app and have Washington Watch with you wherever you go. You also will have access to the Washington Stand, our news and commentary from a biblical perspective. That’s in the App Store, Stand Firm. President Trump and First Lady Melania received the royal treatment today on their first full day of their historic second state visit to the U.K. Upon arriving at the Windsor Castle today, the President and First Lady were greeted by what U.K. officials say was the largest military ceremonial welcome for a state visit to Britain in living memory. How significant might this visit be for the U.S. and the U.K.? Well, joining me now live from London to discuss this is Peter McIlvenna. He is the co-founder of the Hearts of Oak, a freedom of speech alliance, and he works in the office of the U.K.’ ‘s House of Lords. Peter, welcome back to Washington Watch. Thanks so much for joining us.
SPEAKER 03 :
Always good to be with you, Tony. Thanks so much.
SPEAKER 17 :
So President Trump’s visit is historic in that he is the first second term U.S. leader invited for a second official state visit. How did this visit come about?
SPEAKER 03 :
Well, state visits are an invite from the monarch. I believe George W. Bush had an invite in 2003 and Barack Obama had an invite in 2011. And then President Trump has had two invites and that’s fairly unique. in the UK. He visited here in 2019 at the invitation of Queen Elizabeth II. Of course, he has come this time at the invitation of King Charles. And I’ve watched the footage all day. It’s a short state visit of two days. But today has all been about the pomp, the ceremony, the things that Britain does well. some of the few things that we still are able to do, pomp and ceremony. And he visited Windsor Castle, which is the home of King Charles. He went to see where Queen Elizabeth II is buried. And today has been about a time of seeing the military, seeing the fly past of the Red Arrows and spending time with King Charles. Queen Camilla, and the royal family. So it’s certainly, to us in the UK, it’s been wall-to-wall coverage from morning to night, whether you watch GB News, Sky News, even BBC have wanted to cover it. I would love to ask you, Tony, in an interview, if it was such a high event in the US, but that’s maybe for another time. But for us, it has been a high-profile event, the event of the last few days.
SPEAKER 17 :
Well, I did see a little bit of it. And you talked about the military having been in the Marine Corps and actually done a number of color guards. I’m always fascinated by the big hats that those the British soldiers wear. I don’t know how they can even walk around with those big things. But that’s we’ll save that for another day as well. So what’s the message that this is sending?
SPEAKER 03 :
They’re all different messages. Today was about soft diplomacy. Today was about connecting with the royal family. I know President Trump has huge high regard for the royal family. He really adores and possibly goes back to. uh his his mother uh being born out in the scottish highlands and there is that deep connection and we haven’t seen that for many presidents many presidents claim irish ascendancy actually president trump has that connection with scotland and therefore the uk and therefore is maybe the closest u.s president to the uk in many many years and The key thing today, there were many conversations, private and public conversations. It then moves over to the engagement with the UK government. And, of course, it’s a short visit. I don’t know whether the visit was actually shortened because of obviously Charlie Kirk’s funeral on Friday and President Trump is flying back for that. But today was about the soft diplomacy. Tomorrow is about the engagement with Keir Starmer. And Keir Starmer is worse than… than Obama, worse than Joe Biden was for you in terms of censorship, in terms of curtailment of free speech, in terms of the demographic change we have seen in the UK, open borders, mass immigration, all of that. And although President Trump connects closely with the royal family, When you look at the governmental side, he has a huge concern. And J.D. Vance has expressed this very well in terms of the free speech aspect. And President Trump holds that in high regard, as you should in the U.S., as we have tried to hold in high regard in the U.K. So it’ll be interesting to see how those develop.
SPEAKER 17 :
Well, let me ask you, are you hopeful that the president will bring that up in his meeting with government officials tomorrow?
SPEAKER 03 :
I think he will. And I would encourage the Washington Watch viewers please to pray for that because freedom of speech is key. And we’ve seen that eroded massively. And the Trump administration seems to be really concerned about this and seems to have connected this to trade deals. And I hope that remains tomorrow. And I hope… And Keir Starmer does not bamboozle. You cannot bamboozle President Trump. I mean, he knows what he has come in for. He will walk away with the deal he wants more than any other leader in the world. So I think I have high hopes that President Trump will come into this and he is looking for a good trade deal. economically for the US and for the UK. But he is also very concerned at the erosion of free speech. And I’m sure he’s had many conversations with Nigel Farage about that and be prepped for those conversations.
SPEAKER 17 :
So there’s trade, there’s Russia. There’s also coming up at the end of this month here in New York, there is the United Nations meeting. And, you know, the UK saying that they may join Spain, France and others calling for a Palestinian state.
SPEAKER 03 :
That is an ongoing concern in the UK and many of the Labour Party, the left party, the governmental party are very pro-Palestine. They hate Israel in every aspect and part of that comes from our godless aspect to our political scene in the UK and therefore they do not understand the history and they do not understand the geopolitics. I’ve also got a huge concern. I saw expressions from Labour politicians today that they were wanting to force the UK government to back a two-state solution, and President Trump is against that, and rightly so. So it’d be interesting how those conversations happen. Of course, they don’t just happen between President and Prime Minister. It’s with a whole entourage in that.
SPEAKER 17 :
Peter, thanks for staying up late and joining us there from London and giving us the latest on President Trump’s visit to your country. Thank you, Tony. All right. Great to see you. All right. Coming up next, FBI Director Kash Patel has been on the hot seat for the past two days. We’re going to talk more about it.
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At Family Research Council, defending the family isn’t just a mission, it’s our daily calling. Every team member at FRC uses their God-given talents to stand for biblical truth, protect life, and uphold religious freedom.
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Here at Family Research Council, we face many threats to the family, threats that have been with us for some time. Abortion, the gender ideology threat, the attacks on marriage, the attacks on parental authority, and the attacks on religious freedom. We have to promote, support, strengthen, and incentivize family growth so families take their place in society in a place of honor.
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I’m defending the family by working in the Center for Biblical Worldview to provide cutting-edge research and resources for pastors, ministry leaders, and Christian parents.
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Through my work at the Washington Stand, I passionately defend what God has defined for marriage and family. I don’t see the Washington stand as just a place to talk about cultural events. It’s a place to share biblical truth. It’s a perfect outlet to advance and defend what God has defined as good, true, and beautiful. Because of you, we’re able to frame things in such a way that help Christians stand for truth on the things that matter most like life, faith, family, and freedom.
SPEAKER 11 :
Thank you for standing with us. Thank you for your support. It is so critical to the work that we at Family Research Council are doing day to day as we support and strengthen the family. So thank you.
SPEAKER 17 :
Well, earlier today, the House Judiciary Committee held a hearing on the oversight of the FBI to examine the nation’s preeminent law enforcement agency under the direction of Director Kash Patel. The hearing followed a similar one yesterday before the Senate Judiciary Committee. And like yesterday, there were heated exchanges over the Epstein files. But Democrat distractions aside, what were the takeaways of note from today’s hearing? Joining me now to discuss this by phone, Congresswoman Harriet Hageman, a member of the House Judiciary Committee. She represents Wyoming’s at-large district, and she joins us by phone because the House is expected to have floor votes here in just a moment. Congresswoman Hageman, welcome back to Washington Watch. Thanks so much for joining us.
SPEAKER 12 :
Oh, it’s so wonderful to be with you, and I’m glad that you’re spotlighting these issues.
SPEAKER 17 :
So I know the Democrats continue to focus on the Epstein files, but what were the major takeaways in today’s oversight hearing?
SPEAKER 12 :
One is that the Democrats are not interested in what the FBI is doing to actually keep the American citizens and the American public safe. As you note, they talked an awful lot about Epstein and focused on something that For the majority of Americans, they’re not interested. The FBI is doing what it can to disclose what it can. This is the first agency that has actually disclosed Epstein files. The Obama administration didn’t do it. The Biden administration didn’t do it. So they’re actually disclosing information. But that’s not good enough for the Democrats because that’s not the point. of the hearing. That’s not the point of them going after this issue. But really, there’s a couple of things that I found incredibly compelling. And one is the crime statistics that were shared with us today in terms of what the FBI is doing to get predators off of our streets to address the the pedophiles, the arrests that are being made. My questioning focused on the work that they are doing with our tribal members and our reservations in trying to push back against the Mexican drug cartels that have created so many problems for our reservations in light of the open border under Joe Biden.
SPEAKER 17 :
So, Congresswoman, they’re having to clean up the streets, the crime, because that was in many ways neglected under the previous administration. I mean, wide open borders, a lot of that came across the borders, which facilitated human trafficking. But there is also information that came out yesterday’s hearing, again today’s hearing, that the climate at the FBI was politicized. It was weaponized to go after conservatives. We saw the same thing under COVID. We’ve seen this repeatedly under the Biden administration. How are we going to get that cleaned up so that the next administration, you know, if it is Democrat, is not able to jump right back in there and use this very important agency against American citizens?
SPEAKER 12 :
So it is critically important that we expose what was happening. This was called Operation Arctic Fox. I’ll just quote from you what Senator Chuck Grassley said yesterday during the Judiciary Committee on the Senate side. Quote, Arctic Frost wasn’t just a case to politically investigate Trump. It was the vehicle by which partisan FBI agents and DOJ prosecutors could achieve their partisan ends and improperly investigate the entire Republican political apparatus. And I have gone through the report that has been shared with us that identifies what this Operation Arctic Frost was intended to do. Shockingly enough, my own consultant was one of them that they were surveilling. and investigating they being the Biden administration. Now, keep in mind, this was at the time that I was running against Liz Cheney, that the Biden administration was actually surreptitiously surveilling my own consultant, which is just absolutely shocking. But what they were doing is they used the full weight of the federal government to investigate, oh my gosh, not only my own consultant, but CPI and Mark Meadows. The America First Policy Institute, obviously Donald Trump, Turning Point USA. Now, you tell me why the FBI was being sicked on Turning Point USA when we know what that organization was about and our hero, Charlie Kirk, what he was doing, what his efforts at having a dialogue were. And they targeted him with a federal investigation. Republican Attorneys General Association, the RNC, and many, many, many other organizations. So this is what the Biden administration did is they used their own FBI, their own agency as almost a Gestapo against the Republican Party.
SPEAKER 17 :
I mean, it’s aptly named Arctic Frost because it’s it was intended to chill the freedom of speech as people speak out into the political process. Again, what measures can Congress take to ensure that as this is exposed, and I think there’s a whole lot more to be exposed because we have seen the links of the FBI to groups like the Southern Poverty Law Center and others on the left. Once that’s exposed, how do we clean it up and make sure it doesn’t happen again?
SPEAKER 12 :
So a couple of things. The 118th Congress, we in fact have been at the 118th and we’re continuing the work of the 119th. FISA reform. If you remember, during the last Congress, we made 56 different changes to FISA, and FISA is what was being used by the Obama administration to target the Trump campaign in 2016.
SPEAKER 17 :
And for the benefit of our listeners, the FISA is basically a secret court that the public doesn’t have access to.
SPEAKER 12 :
It is, and it’s about foreigners. So foreign investigating, surveillance, that’s what this was intended to do, is FISA was to be directed to people who we were concerned were terrorists operating or foreign nationals operating in or within or working with other people in the United States to wreak havoc like 9-11. So it is a court where the Obama administration, they falsified documents in order to go into FISA to get the warrants against Carter Page so that they could spy on the Trump campaign in 2016. So we’ve made some substantial reforms to that, and we will continue to do so. It is up yet again for reauthorization in the spring of next year, early 2026. I’m already working with Jim Jordan on the Judiciary Committee for additional reform to address this.
SPEAKER 17 :
Harriet, we’re going to have to leave it there, but we will follow up. Folks, stick with us. We’re back after this.
SPEAKER 04 :
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SPEAKER 16 :
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SPEAKER 05 :
There’s so many different audiences that can benefit. The first one are counselors themselves, right? Because we have some material in there where we really address the gender dysphoria diagnosis and what is wrong with it. We have information for people who are wanting to go back to embracing God’s design for their life.
SPEAKER 16 :
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SPEAKER 05 :
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SPEAKER 19 :
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SPEAKER 07 :
How should Christians think about the thorny issues shaping our culture? How should Christians address deceitful ideas like transgenderism, critical theory, or assisted suicide? How can Christians navigate raising children in a broken culture, the war on gender roles, or rebuilding our once great nation? Outstanding is a podcast from The Washington Stand dedicated to these critical conversations. Outstanding seeks to tear down what our corrupt culture lifts up with an aim to take every thought and every idea captive to the obedience of Christ. Whether policies or partisan politics, whether conflict in America or conflict abroad, join us and our guests as we examine the headlines through the lens of Scripture and explore how Christians can faithfully exalt Christ in all of life. Follow Outstanding on your favorite podcast app and look for new episodes each week.
SPEAKER 17 :
Welcome back to Washington Watch. Well, let me encourage you to join us for the Pray Vote Stand Summit coming up October the 17th and 18th at Calvary Chapel Chino Hills, California. This powerful event brings together Christian leaders, issue experts, and government officials for a time of prayer, inspiration, and action. We will be equipping Christians on how to stand firm in the faith in a time and place when the hostility is growing. To learn more about the PrayVoteStand Summit or to register, visit PrayVoteStand.org. That’s PrayVoteStand.org. Today’s Word comes from 1 Thessalonians 1, where Paul writes to a church he planted amid fierce opposition. He thanks God for them, making mention of you in our prayers, he wrote, and notes that they received the Word in much affliction, with joy of the Holy Spirit, becoming examples to others. From them the Word of the Lord sounded forth in every place, as they turned to God from idols to serve the living and true God. Well, from this passage, we see four marks of believers who thrive in hostile times. Number one, they follow the Lord and imitate faithful leaders who follow him as well. We learn courage by watching courage. They receive the word despite opposition. So let Scripture, not anger or fear, set the tone of your heart. And third, they embrace God’s truth over the culture’s deception. Reject the idols of our age and serve the living God. And then fourth, proclaim the gospel in word and deed. Let your faith sound forth through steadfast lives and gracious speech. This is not triumphalism. It is spirit-given joy under pressure. As we follow Christ in these ways, our witness rings out, and even persecution becomes a platform for the gospel. To find out more about our two-year journey through the Bible, text the word Bible to 67742. That’s Bible to 67742. All right. As we mentioned earlier in the program, during yesterday’s Senate Judiciary Committee hearing, FBI Director Kash Patel revealed that the agency has been looking into a number of individuals who received communication related to Charlie Kirk’s assassination from the suspected shooter through a chat thread on Discord, a popular messaging platform among gamers. When Senator Josh Hawley of Missouri noted that as many as 20 users were on the thread, Director Patel corrected him, saying it’s a lot more than that. While a spokesman for Discord says they found no evidence that the suspect planned the assassination on their platform nor promoted violence, this is not the first time that the world of online gaming has intersected with real world violence. So the question is worth exploring. Is there a connection or is it just coincidence? Joining me now to discuss this is Reagan Rose, founder of the media ministry Redeeming Productivity. He formerly served as director of digital platforms for Grace to You, the media ministry of the late John MacArthur. Reagan, welcome to Washington Watch. Thanks for joining us.
SPEAKER 10 :
It’s great to be here, Tony.
SPEAKER 17 :
First, I think it’s important to note that when we speak of gaming here, our focus is on these shooter games, not necessarily traditional games. Even then, some may think those games are harmless and don’t carry over into the real world. But even the military would probably say otherwise, right? Yeah.
SPEAKER 10 :
Yeah, there’s a long history, actually. Most people don’t realize this. A long history of the military using video games for training. I think most of us know that they would use flight simulators for those types of things. But even first person shooter type games, they’ve been using as far back as the 90s. There was an old game, some people might remember Doom. It was Doom 2. They actually, the military took it and they called it Marine Doom. And they would train scenarios on this old computer game. And they’ve been doing that ever since. Even in the early 2000s, the Army put out their own game, America’s Army, which they used for training and they actually put it out to the public and used it for recruitment as well. So there’s been a long-term cooperation between gaming and the military.
SPEAKER 17 :
Yeah, some of it crosses over into some of the black operations in the dark side of the military, the Department of Defense going back in the 80s and 90s, even before as they worked through DARPA, one of these defense research entities. But let’s talk about, I know a lot of parents, you know, they may not, why are my kids down in the basement playing those games? Some of these games are not harmless. There is a desensitizing that takes place in these games, but there’s more than that, because if I recall correctly, Rose, back in, I think it was in the Snowden files that were released, that the CIA, the FBI, the various intelligence organizations were going into these gaming chat rooms and they were looking for suspects that might be involved in real world violence.
SPEAKER 10 :
Yeah, they were doing that British intelligence as well. We know that as far back as 2008, they all had programs looking into what conversations were happening on these platforms. And I think the idea was that people were taking advantage of these non-traditional communication platforms to almost hide in plain sight, recruit, plan terrorist activity or otherwise nefarious things. And the military realized there was this whole area that they weren’t paying attention to.
SPEAKER 17 :
So one of the shell casings that law enforcement found had a sequence of various arrows. That combination appears to be, I’m told, a direct nod to Helldivers, to a cooperative shooter where players use button codes to trigger support actions. So what do we know? How deeply does it appear that Tyler was involved in the gaming world?
SPEAKER 10 :
Yeah, it seems like he was a highly online person, as you might say. Definitely with the memes, and like you mentioned, the bullet casings, and that is the arrow key reference is a reference, they believe, to Helldivers 2, a combination you would do to call in an airstrike in the game. But I think also his use of Discord, which you mentioned as well, that it’s not only gamers use that, but that platform for chat is very popular in the gaming community. And some of those corners of the Internet can get quite dark. I mean, I know from my own experience past being very deep in the gaming world myself, there’s a lot of conversations, a lot of attempts to be edgy, a lot of the things around the fringes of society are discussed there more openly, because I think there’s this sense of cooperation, this sense of we’re all sort of in our own little corner, and I think a lot of antisocial tendencies are cultivated in the gaming world that people that are outside of that world don’t realize just how dark it can be.
SPEAKER 17 :
And there’s been one effort, some efforts to try to keep minors out of these areas, and that’s… raised a lot of opposition from those on the left. But there’s concern because young people, minors, have been sucked into this.
SPEAKER 10 :
Yeah, unfortunately, even with rules, there might be around social media, for example. Right now, unfortunately, I think it’s too low of an age that you have to be above 13 to get an account for social media. That hopefully will change in the future to raise the age. But even with video games in the rating system, it’s more like a recommendation than anything that’s enforced. Even with some of the most hardcore games, you can easily get around that even as a child.
SPEAKER 17 :
So do these games, you know, some have raised this question. I’m of opinion that it does, but what evidence is there that these games desensitize people to violence?
SPEAKER 10 :
Yeah, it’s always a tricky question because going back, I remember after the Columbine massacre, this discussion came up and it’s very frequent that after a mass shooting, there does seem to be some gaming related things. And I know the American Psychological Association has come out twice saying that they don’t see a causal relationship between video game violence and real world violence.
SPEAKER 17 :
But that’s not the only way it could be connected. So let’s talk about that, because why would the military, the military is using it and has been using it to make soldiers, Marines more proficient in their occupation, which is to kill, blow things up. I mean, how is it not affecting young people?
SPEAKER 10 :
Yeah, I think that’s well observed because the very fact that they’re using these things for training assumes that they believe there is some transferability. There’s some way you’re going to be able to take what you’ve trained on the game and use it in real life. And so I think that the connection is closer than most people are willing to look at. And I think the word you used earlier is probably the right line to think about it. It’s desensitizing. Yeah. And it’s tremendously anti-socializing as well if you get very deep into these gaming communities.
SPEAKER 17 :
I remember when Tipper Gore, that was Al Gore’s wife when he was vice president, took on Hollywood and how movies and Hollywood were desensitizing young people to violence. And that’s a whole different level. That’s like going from one dimension to three dimensions when you get into the video. And I mean, even in my time in the Marine Corps in training, The exposure to certain, we didn’t have the video games, but we had videos training of combat situations, actual footage designed to, I think it was designed to, not necessarily desensitize, but to prepare you for those types of scenarios and situations so that it was not the first time you saw all of this. And it does have a desensitizing effect. Maybe that’s not the purpose, but it does because it becomes familiar. And when something becomes familiar, you become desensitized to it, maybe not totally. But especially when you’re in the gaming world, and I’ll have to confess, I’ve never played. You want to talk about Pac-Man? I played Pac-Man, maybe Space Invaders, one of those. So I’ve never played those other games. But I can imagine that as you play those games and people are killed and they die, you blow things up, but then you walk away from it. It is much different than real life, and I think it desensitizes you to the actual element of death and destruction.
SPEAKER 10 :
And I think that there’s a difference with video games, too, besides just watching. Maybe someone who’s a fan of slasher films or something, that’s desensitizing to watch that horrific stuff. But I think it’s a layer deeper when you are participating in it, even though you know it’s pretend, you know it’s a simulation, but the immersiveness and the fact that it’s you carrying out those things, it’s not you as an observer, it’s you acting it out, I think is a level of… participation in the violence that is even more desensitizing.
SPEAKER 17 :
It makes it one step closer to reality. You’re absolutely right, because you’re not just watching it. You are a participant in it. And, you know, the virtual reality is as real as it’s become. I mean, you are absorbed into it. You are a part of it. So Reagan, with that in mind, what is your advice to parents who have children that may be playing these sort of games or you know, have a foot in the online gaming communities. Because I think the frame of reference for many parents is going to be those, you know, video arcade games that they played when they were younger, usually with pocket change. This is something much different.
SPEAKER 10 :
it is and i think a lot of parents are ill prepared for it even ones that grew up with video games even as as short as 10 years ago the games were radically different um in terms of the addictive quality of them this is a massive thing you see kids playing video games for longer stretches of time than ever before and that’s a deliberate move by the video game uh creators to make the games more addicting why because they now have uh subscription revenue they can get from it advertising revenue, microtransactions where you buy different weapons or different skins for your character. And so the longer they get you playing, the more money they make. So it’s a natural incentive for them to create as addicting of a game as possible.
SPEAKER 17 :
So how do they do that? I mean, they’re not shooting from the hip on this. They’re using data that they have gleaned from people being online to hold them there longer. Right?
SPEAKER 10 :
Exactly. And even when I was researching for my book on this, a lot of them researched casinos. What was it that made the casino so addictive? Casino games. And to emulate some of those same reward systems to sort of hack your psychology into making you want to keep coming back for that dopamine hit. What should parents be looking for as warning signs? Yeah, I think the easiest factor to look for is the amount of time spent on the games. That’s when you’re going to notice the addiction pattern. People can play video games in moderation. Some people are more wired for it to be addicting than others. I pay close attention to the content of the games. Some of the games that are out there You think of the Grand Theft Auto series. You talk about acting out wicked things. That’s what you’re doing in those games. You’re the one beating people up with a baseball bat with wanton disregard. So look how much time they’re spending. Look at what the content of the games are. And look what happens when you try to take the games away, when you try to cut them off. I think the reaction of children of students to when you try to remove the games will show you just how attached they are to them. And that can be a warning sign that you should pay attention to.
SPEAKER 17 :
So let’s talk, we just have a couple minutes left, Reagan. Let’s talk for just a moment about the spiritual nature of this. I mean, some of the things you’ve been describing, I mean, there’s no redemptive purpose in that. Is this a, I mean, is this demonically designed to entrap our children?
SPEAKER 10 :
I think so. I mean, you can see the natural incentives from the game developers. But if you just look at video games, how they are now, from the perspective of, you know, if you were Satan, could you come up with a way to… waylay the natural desire for young men to seek out achievement in this world, to exercise dominion, right? To fulfill their call as creatures from God. If you could find a way to hijack our natural desire for fellowship and move it into a fake online world where we’re disconnected from our bodies, if you could find a way to basically mollify these natural good desires for us want to achieve, to overcome, and to fellowship, and relegate us to a corner where we can’t really make an influence on society where we can’t glorify god in the real world this is what i would come up with if that was my task and so i think that there really is a demonic element to it and and again i’m not trying to say that all video games are evil or no one should play them but i think we need to be much more cautious than we are chris we just have about 25 seconds left where can people find more about your book Yeah, the book and everything else I do is available at redeemingproductivity.com.
SPEAKER 17 :
All right, Reagan, thanks so much for joining us. Great insight today. Thank you. Good talking with you, Tony. So parents, something you need to pay close attention to. I think it’s, quite frankly, as he laid out there, it’s zapping us of our usefulness for the kingdom. And it’s not good. All right, thanks for joining us. Until next time, keep standing.
SPEAKER 02 :
Washington Watch with Tony Perkins is brought to you by Family Research Council and is entirely listener supported. Portions of the show discussing candidates are brought to you by Family Research Council Action. For more information on anything you heard today or to find out how you can partner with us in our ongoing efforts to promote faith, family, and freedom, visit TonyPerkins.com.
