In this riveting episode, understand the compelling narrative of how God’s vision for masculinity is under siege in modern times. With Ken Harrison, dissect why terms like ‘toxic masculinity’ mislead and how pornography poses a grave threat to relationships and personal integrity. Hear an inspiring call for men to lead with conviction, courage, and compassion in their family and community.
00:00:07 Introduction to Masculinity and Guest Ken Harrison
Well, hello, everyone. I’m James Dobson, and this is Family Talk, which is a radio division of the James Dobson Family Institute. We discuss every day various aspects of the family, from marriage to child rearing and the culture around us and a whole lot of stuff. And we have a very important topic to talk to you about today. We’re going to take a good hard look at masculinity, which is embroiled now and has continued to be embroiled in a culture war. Everything manly is subjected to ridicule and resentment in some circles. Several months ago, I had lunch with Ken Harrison. We had just met and we talked for more than an hour. And he struck me that day and does today as a man’s man. He had a good understanding of what biblical masculinity is all about. He began his career as a police officer with the Los Angeles Police Department working in Compton, California, and that is a tough area of the city. And he then became a successful businessman, had his own business, and he’s now chairman of the board. of a revitalized promise keepers organization. And he’s written The Rise of the Servant Kings, What the Bible Says About Being a Man. Ken, you’ve been sitting there listening to all this, and I want to talk about your book. But tell me what your thinking has been. What are you thinking about?
SPEAKER 02 :
I can see why you’re so passionate about the issue, as am I. Satan is the great liar, and what he wants to do is constantly change words, make words that are awesome mean something else. Masculinity is the definition of all of the positive aspects of being a man, just like femininity is all the positive aspects of being a woman. I mean, how silly would it be if we said toxic femininity when we were describing a woman who was behaving poorly? When a man is behaving not like a man, he’s not being masculine in any sense of the word. And so to say toxic masculinity is to put a negative effect on a word that describes how God created us. When a man treats women for his own gratification, when he’s disrespectful to women, when he’s macho, violent, argumentative, prideful, there’s nothing manly in any of those things. There is nothing masculine about that. He is acting like the enemy of our souls, Satanism.
SPEAKER 03 :
Yeah, we really ought to admit that there are an awful lot of men who live sinful lives, many of them involved in pornography and some of them abuse children. There are a lot of sinful men and a lot of outright jerks out there. So let’s make it clear. I’m not talking about those men when I say there’s something wrong with their criticism of all men.
SPEAKER 02 :
And I would venture to say, and I bet you we get into this, with the rise of pornography, I think there’s a lot more jerks today than there were in the past. And I think a lot of women are angry and hurt, and a lot of women have a reason to be angry and hurt.
SPEAKER 03 :
It’s at an epidemic level. David said, behold, I will set before mine eyes no unclean thing.
SPEAKER 02 :
I mean, it’s all through the Scripture. And in my experience in South Central LA, when I saw guys, of course, pornography back in those days wasn’t as prevalent as it is today. Back in the day, at least you had to schlep into a liquor store and buy a magazine. You couldn’t just sit behind your computer. Come out with a paper bag around you. Right. But when I saw perversion and promiscuity, I saw the effect on men was violence and cowardice and effeminism. Not feminism, but effeminism. Men became unmasculine. They became cowardly and unwilling to stand up for the truth. And I think that’s what’s epidemic today with the pornography. It’s a horrific thing, and it’s affecting our men to act counter to being masculine, not toxic masculine. They’re acting like nothing masculine at all.
SPEAKER 03 :
Do you intend with Promise Keepers to address that?
SPEAKER 02 :
Yeah, absolutely. In fact, you know, one of the things that we’re going to bring out in Promise Keepers is men need to be men of action. That is what it means to be a leader is to say there’s a problem and I’m the one who’s going to fix it. I don’t look around for someone else to fix it. Besides pornography, which we’re going to take on very bluntly, you hate to have to. But, you know, both of our friends, Josh McDowell, says that 70 percent, I think it is, of Christian men look at pornography more than twice a week. So you have to ask yourself.
SPEAKER 03 :
Isn’t that breathtaking?
SPEAKER 02 :
And who are our daughters supposed to marry?
SPEAKER 03 :
Yeah.
SPEAKER 02 :
You think about a young woman who, if she’s been raised Christian and pure and she wants a man who’s a godly representation of masculinity, how is she supposed to find a husband if he’s looking at that stuff? How is he supposed to know how to respect her? I mean, women want to be cherished and loved and provided for and protected by their husbands. If a man is looking at that stuff, he has no concept of what it means to cherish a woman. He’s looking at women as objects, not as human beings.
SPEAKER 03 :
And what men don’t know is that involvement in pornography completely undermines the sexual relationship between a man and a woman. Because there is absolutely nothing a woman can do to herself to compete with airbrushed nudity and all the things that go on in hardcore pornography. And people who are not into it have no idea how wretched it all is. And I spent 18 months learning about it on a commission on pornography. And I never want to ever look at anything like that again. It’s just breathtaking, as I said.
SPEAKER 02 :
It’s so sad. And, you know, and there’s hope. You’ve got sin and you have addiction and pornography can be in both of those camps. And I don’t want you know, there’s a lot of men out there listening to this right now who suffer from that. There are a lot of women, probably a lot more women who have suffered because of men who are into that sort of thing. But again, as we talked about, Jesus said, if you’re sinning with lust, stop now. And I did ask Josh McDowell, well, he’s very big on the fact that men have to be released from this powerful addiction, and they need counseling, and they need this. And I asked him, well, what about Jesus’ words about stop now? And as we had a long discussion about it, we really came to the understanding of, And what Jesus means by stop now is do whatever it takes to stop now. And if that means getting counseling, if it means picking up Stephen Arterberg’s book, Every Man’s Battle, if it means going to newlife.com and joining one of their conferences, do what you need to do to get help. Because a man is a leader. And if you have a problem with that, you need to stop and you need to be proactive in seeking a solution.
SPEAKER 03 :
Let’s talk about your book, The Rise of the Servant Kings. What is a servant king? I understand what a servant is. What is a servant king?
SPEAKER 02 :
God tells us to love our wives like Christ loved the church. And how did Christ love the church? He was tortured to death for her. We needed to lay down our lives for our wives, which is what the great Coach Bill McCartney used to say all the time. And so a servant king is somebody who understands that as he’s a leader, he’s a leader there to serve. A king understands that he is accountable and responsible for what happens in his kingdom. And for a man, he’s responsible at the most base for what happens in his own life if he’s single, which means keeping himself pure, his mind pure, taking every thought captive, as Paul said. And for his family, his kingdom is his family. His kids are his responsibility. His wife’s happiness and joy are his responsibility. And he will do what it takes to meet those responsibilities. Kings don’t say, well, there’s an enemy at the door. Someone should do something. A king says there’s an enemy at the door. I’m going to go conquer that enemy. So a servant king is looking at his kids and saying, are they okay? Is something wrong? What do I need to do about it? Looking at his wife, what can I do to give her more joy? How can I lay down my rights to myself to live for Christ first and my family second?
SPEAKER 03 :
What is his kingdom? What does that consist of? What do you say to a woman who says, it’s my kingdom too?
SPEAKER 02 :
Well, it is her kingdom too. She’s the queen.
SPEAKER 03 :
Yeah.
SPEAKER 02 :
It’s a partnership. We’re both responsible for our kids. And one thing I do want to make clear, and I make clear in the book, is just because you’re accountable for something doesn’t mean everything is your fault. And sometimes we need to be careful about what we mean by certain words. My wife is a very strong and very intelligent woman. I don’t think I’ve ever made a decision by myself. In fact, I know I haven’t. Everything we do is together. Submission is a submissive type of an attitude, but she’s not submissive in the way she behaves. We are partners in every sense of the word.
SPEAKER 03 :
Well, I think we certainly agree on that. Shirley and I agree on all substantive issues. You take the spouse’s desires and hopes and dreams and feelings and come to an agreement. You’re really not talking about dominance.
SPEAKER 02 :
Not at all. And disrespect. I’m talking about loving as Christ loved the church. Always remembering of how does Jesus love us? He’s given us everything. And that’s how we’re supposed to love our wives and our kids.
SPEAKER 03 :
You talk, in fact, your subtitle to your book, which is The Rise of the Servant Kings, the subtitle is What the Bible Says About Being a Man. What does the Bible say about masculinity?
SPEAKER 02 :
This book is full of Scripture. And I was raised in the church. I was saved at five years old and really loved the Lord from five years old. What did your father do? My dad got saved when I was five years old. He had just been shot. He was a Los Angeles police officer and walked into the First Baptist Church. And he walked down the aisle to get saved. And I was running up the aisle behind him. And I truly got saved that day. Put on my little patent leather white shoes and my little clip-on tie on Saturdays and go hand out tracks as good Baptists did in the 60s.
SPEAKER 03 :
Did you kneel at an altar?
SPEAKER 02 :
I did. Knelt at an altar. Got baptized in the big baptismal. They would put the portable thing up at the front of the church and dunk you. I tell a story in the book about how I saw Ricky Nelson when I was six years old in the airport and my mother started to scream, Ricky Nelson, he was a famous rock star. And so I chased him down in the airport and I witnessed him for five minutes. You’re kidding. Handed him a track and told him we’d see him at Tri-City Baptist Temple on Sunday. How old were you? Six. Is that a fact? And he graciously sat and listened to the whole thing.
SPEAKER 03 :
Did your father lead in your family?
SPEAKER 02 :
Absolutely, he did. Was he a servant king? He was. He was a good man. My dad was. And we went to Stu Weber’s church, who wrote the foreword to the book. He sure did. A great example of what a man is as well. So I was blessed by the Lord to have a lot of great examples.
SPEAKER 03 :
Were you taught to be respectful of women?
SPEAKER 02 :
Absolutely, I was. My father was a very strong man. He was a professional boxer before I was born. Again, a very macho L.A. cop. And to see the change in him, my dad was a heavy drinker. And at five years old, you are forming your worldview and forming your opinion of your dad. And I do want to give hope out there because my dad was so utterly changed when he got saved. and filled with the Holy Spirit. And even at five, I saw what that meant. And I actually was just talking to a young lady who was talking about her dad was changed at a Promise Keepers event. She was 19. Her father was an alcoholic, a workaholic. She was terrified of her dad. When he came home from a Promise Keepers event, he had gotten saved at a Promise Keepers event. He was so utterly transformed. He started doing a Bible study, and she broke up in tears as she talked about how shy he was and clumsy, trying to open up a Bible and teach a family that he abused for their entire lives. But she says she is the woman she is today because of how transformed her dad was. So even at 19, because I know there’s a lot of dads listening to this going, well, I’ve screwed up. My kids are grown. Your kids never stop idolizing you. No matter how much bitterness, no matter how much anger, no matter how much water under the bridge, if your kids are 20 or 50, they never stop wanting their dad’s approval.
SPEAKER 03 :
We’re talking to people. I hope we’re talking to a lot of men who did not have godly fathers like you and I had. They have no idea what a servant king is. what he’s supposed to be, and especially in a marital family context. They don’t know how to treat a woman. They don’t know how really to raise their kids properly. They start, I’m sure you would agree, by giving their heart to the Lord. That would be the first step. And beyond that, what?
SPEAKER 02 :
How do you discern a godly man or woman, right? I mean, the Bible says that a godly man judges all things, but he himself is judged by no one, right? We have to discern, not condemn, but discern the form of judge. Who is godly? I mean, even if we’re running churches, if we’re putting people in leadership, who are godly people? And I have found that the one thing all godly people have in common is humility. And our expressions of those, especially in men, are courage and generosity. A man who doesn’t think of himself as the most important person in the room will always stand up for the poor, the oppressed, the bullied. He’ll always stand up for what’s right, and that includes Scripture. And right now we’re having a lot more opportunities to stand up for what’s right than maybe past generations. And generosity means a generosity of spirit. It doesn’t only mean being generous with money, although that’s part of it. I mean, a generous person tips well. A generous person looks for needs and fills those needs. But it also means generosity of spirit in noticing when someone is struggling and taking an interest in their lives. It means listening instead of talking all the time. It means seeing someone broken down on the side of the road and stopping and saying, heck, how can I help? Those are the outward expressions of being a man.
SPEAKER 03 :
Does it also mean standing up for righteousness when you’re the only person standing?
SPEAKER 02 :
Absolutely. The dangers of pornography and standing up against that in this tide. Another thing that a man does is stand up against abortion. And I’m not trying to bring up politics. I don’t care about politics. But there is nobody more vulnerable, more poor and oppressed, as God calls the vulnerable, than the unborn. And so just because two political parties have decided to take two different stances on it, that doesn’t make us political. It means that we’re standing up for righteousness. So for me and my family, we will do whatever it takes to help the unborn make sure that they see the light of day. And I don’t care who hates us for it, and I don’t care who calls me political for it.
SPEAKER 03 :
Well, it’s not political. It’s moral. It’s really right and wrong. Ken, I’m sure you had many opportunities in your career to take a stance for righteousness. But let’s kind of walk through where you’ve been. I find it really interesting, especially being a man’s man. And I think you qualify in that. You were a police officer. in the Los Angeles Police Department for three years. Talk about that experience. What did that do to you? What did you see there? How were you changed by it? And what would you say to the people who are listening?
SPEAKER 02 :
You know, I found that one of the most important things about walking with Christ is living in the moment. Each moment brings its own stuff. And there’s no better training than being a cop in an extremely violent area because you literally never know what’s going to happen moment to moment to moment. And you make decisions that will affect your life forever. See, when we’re walking with the Lord and we have a clean conscience, you make decisions in the moment that may affect things differently. But to fall out of that is something you can be totally comfortable with. The words that come out of your mouth, the actions that you take.
SPEAKER 03 :
What did the overall impact of that responsibility in a very violent world, what did that do to you personally?
SPEAKER 02 :
It made me angry and bitter. The Holy Spirit really helped to keep me up, and my wife, who is a very strong and godly and wise woman, also really helped to keep me up. But the lack of justice that you see day in and day out begins to grind on your soul when you see the people, the street cops, who are standing up for right and wrong, and you see the brass, the people who have been promoted up, the politicians who care about their careers more than they care about the poor. who are doing things, putting processes in place, or persecuting police officers who are really keeping the streets safe. That, I think, was the hard part. It wasn’t the bad guys. It was the well-paid people who took advantage and exploited their own people.
SPEAKER 03 :
Well, you were in that responsibility for three years, and I have heard from many sources that the impact on the men and women who are in that role suffer from it. When did you decide to get out and for what reason?
SPEAKER 02 :
One of the most impactful moments for me was we went to Roll Call, which is where you go before you go out on the street, and they showed a video. It was three teenagers who’d been shot and killed and a bunch of police tape around it. It was from the news the night before. And there were four policemen in the tape who were all cutting up and laughing. There was one who was obviously telling a bunch of jokes, and the three others were laughing. And then outside the tape, you could see a bunch of women, probably mothers, who were crying and bawling. And it was an appalling sight. It was four cops, totally oblivious, three dead teenagers, and a bunch of mourning mothers. And I looked at that officer who was telling all the jokes, and it was me. And I was mortified at… I suddenly realized it was a mirror into my soul. And I realized I just didn’t care anymore. And it only took three years. The entirety of what we saw in South Central and Los Angeles, you had a whole bunch of really good people. And they were held hostage by a handful of violent thugs. People had often said, did you guys become racist on the LAPD? I mean, it was all black people. And I said, well, you had to understand. Everybody was black. The victims were black. 95% of those people were great people. And we loved them and felt like we were part of the community. And we were righteously indignant about the 5% who held them hostage by their violence. And those 5%, I came to realize as I got older and grew in maturity and wisdom, were young boys who had no fathers. So they carried out the desires of their flesh, violence, promiscuity. And drugs. And that’s what you get. And my concern is that that’s we see permeating throughout our society today. We see fatherless boys who haven’t been taught how to be men who are carrying out the desires of their flesh. We, the church, need to stand up and do what we can do to teach these boys this is what a man of God looks like. boldly, and we’re going to get mocked. We’re going to be told that we’re toxic masculine guys. It doesn’t matter. We’re going to declare God’s word. Let’s make sure we stay on scripture and not our opinion.
SPEAKER 03 :
Now, is there a link between that experience early on and you’re now being chairman of the new promise keepers? They’re not calling it that, but it’s promise keepers, right? Right. And you’re chairman of the board. And that is really an outreach to men and to fathers and to husbands. Is there a link between your desire to be all you could be to hurting people, men especially, in that environment and what you’re now called to do?
SPEAKER 02 :
Yeah, absolutely. I mean, after I left the LAPD and I got into business, and God really blessed me tremendously, and I got to be an executive in a global company, And what that taught me was that wickedness just doesn’t come in the form of gangsters on the street. It also comes in the form of men and women who wear suits and ties and expensive dresses. Greed and all those things, they don’t change. They just change how they show themselves. And I see that same lack of godliness that’s bringing all of our society down a road that’s going to look like South Central Los Angeles someday if we don’t start teaching our young men. We have got to give men permission to be men again.
SPEAKER 03 :
I pray that this will be the beginning of the revival.
SPEAKER 02 :
Yeah. One of the big messages is going to be start acting like a man. And part of it is a lot of people don’t know what that means. Well, how do I act like a man? And I believe a lot of fathers don’t know how to teach their sons how to act like a man. What we’re hoping we can do is be that place where dads can take their sons. And we’re going to tell you how to be a man. And we’re going to tell your sons how to be a man. You know, I was asked in an interview, I always say sometimes you find out the greatest truths about yourself when you respond to something when you weren’t prepared. What came out of your mouth or what did you do? Without thinking, someone said, why are you so concerned for men that you’re bringing back promise keepers? And my answer was, I’m not concerned for men. I’m concerned for women and children. When we talk about bringing promise keepers back and teaching men how to be men, it’s not about men. It’s partially about men. But it’s a whole lot more about women and children. Because when men are screwed up, it’s women and children who suffer. We’re forcing our women to become incredibly strong because so many men are becoming so weak and they’re cowardly and they don’t stand up for their responsibilities. That’s what we need to change. Only Jesus Christ can change a man. So men struggle with two things desperately, identity and hope. Men have to have hope, and their hope is in Jesus Christ. And the same with their identity. Their identity comes from Jesus Christ. So what we want to do is talk to men about sin and how God, in his graciousness, forgives sin. But you’re not going to get better by trying hard not to sin. You’re going to get better by giving your life to Jesus.
SPEAKER 03 :
Well, Ken, my prayer is that the Lord will bless this movement, not just in the setting or the arena of Promise Keepers, but that it’ll start a revival that will spread across the country. Absolutely. I really don’t believe there’s anything else that’s going to save us as a country. We’re in such a mess. We have sunk into a sewer of sin, only a return to Christ. You know, there have been two great awakenings that have occurred in history. It’s time for another one. And what better place to start than with a Promise Keepers event? Thank you for being with us, Ken. God be with you as you endeavor to reignite this dream. And again, the title of your book with the foreword by Stu Weber is The Rise of the Servant Kings, having to do with manhood and servanthood, serving your family, serving God’s people and God’s cause. Thanks for being with us. I love you as a brother in Christ.
SPEAKER 02 :
It is an honor to know you.
SPEAKER 01 :
Well, Ken Harrison’s journey from the streets of South Central L.A. to leading promise keepers teaches men something powerful. Authentic masculinity means serving others with courage and tenderness. You’ve been listening to Dr. James Dobson’s family talk and Dr. Dobson’s conversation with Ken Harrison about what it truly means to be a servant king. Now, if you’d like to share Ken’s message with the men in your life, go to drjamesdobson.org forward slash family talk. When you go online, you’ll also find a link to Ken’s book called Rise of the Servant Kings, What the Bible Says About Being a Man. You’ll find all that and more at drjamesdobson.org slash family talk. Well, anyone can see that the same crisis Ken Harrison described in South Central L.A. is spreading all across America. Fatherless homes are becoming the norm. Boys are growing up without knowing how to be men. And families are paying the price. That’s why your partnership with the Dr. James Dobson Family Institute matters so much. Through broadcasts like the one you just heard, we’re equipping fathers all across America with the biblical wisdom that they need to lead well. We’re speaking truth into a culture that’s forgotten what real masculinity looks like. When you donate to the Dr. James Dobson Family Institute, you become part of the solution to one of the greatest challenges facing families today. Please boldly stand with us to promote godly manhood in this generation, especially now during these key summer months. Make a secure donation online at drjamesdobson.org. You can make a secure donation over the phone when you call 877-732-6825, or you can send your donation through the U.S. mail. Our ministry mailing address is Dr. James Dobson’s Family Talk, P.O. Box 39000, Colorado Springs, Colorado, the zip code 80949. Well, I’m Roger Marsh, and from all of us here at Family Talk, we are so grateful to have you listening today. Be sure to join us again next time right here for another edition of Dr. James Dobson’s Family Talk, the voice you trust for the family you love. This has been a presentation of the Dr. James Dobson Family Institute.
