In this episode of Family Talk, Dr. James Dobson sits down with Randy and Marsha Heckman, a couple whose family journey perfectly illustrates the blessings of surrendering to God’s will. They reflect on their life with 12 children and a philosophy that places God’s sovereignty at the forefront of family planning. Listen as they discuss society’s misconceptions about overpopulation and the deeper spiritual calling that ignites the pro-life movement. This heartfelt conversation will challenge and inspire you to view family life through a sacred, biblically grounded lens.
Welcome everyone to Family Talk. It’s a ministry of the James Dobson Family Institute supported by listeners just like you. I’m Dr. James Dobson and I’m thrilled that you’ve joined us.
SPEAKER 02 :
Well, welcome to Family Talk, the broadcast division of the Dr. James Dobson Family Institute. I’m Roger Marsh, and today we have a special interview to share with you. We’re going into the archives for a conversation that originally aired several decades ago, and yet the biblical principles discussed on this program remain both relevant and practical for families even today. Our guests are Randy and Marsha Heckman, who at the time of this recording were the parents to—are you ready for this?—10 wonderful children— Since then, their family has grown to include 12 children and, drumroll please, 37 grandchildren. Randy, by the way, serves as executive director of the Grand Awakening, a ministry dedicated to inspiring revival in churches throughout western Michigan. He’s also a licensed attorney, former prosecutor, former juvenile court judge, and the founding executive director of the Michigan Family Forum. Randy was actually the youngest judge ever elected in Michigan, all the way back in 1974. And he’s the author of three books, including Truth That Sets America Free and Sweeter by the Dozen. Now, Marsha Heckman works alongside her husband as chief assistant at the Grand Awakening. She’s a devoted prayer warrior, development director, and Randy’s closest friend and partner in ministry. Together, the Heckmans share their remarkable journey of faith and family together. in this classic conversation with our own Dr. James Dobson. So sit back and relax and enjoy learning about the joys of raising a large family right here on Family Talk.
SPEAKER 04 :
I am delighted to introduce Judge Randy and Marsha Heckman, a superstar family today. I mean to tell you, this one goes down in the Family Hall of Fame. There are 10 kids sitting out in the gallery. Marsha, you have given birth to all of them. None of them are adopted, right? That’s right. 10 kids, and you want three more, I understand.
SPEAKER 06 :
I really love that.
SPEAKER 04 :
Looking at you, one would never guess that you have given birth to 10 kids, and they are the most delightful kids. They’ve been in my office, and they are polite, and they’re just a wonderful family. Did I describe that right, Randall, in saying that of all the things you’ve done and your accomplishments and being a juvenile court judge and having that kind of respect and dignity and so on? that being a dad is the thing that you’re most proud of?
SPEAKER 05 :
There’s no question, and that’s what gives me the greatest joy as well, is to look at those children. We had a birthday the other day of one of our children, and as I looked at her, I just welled up with tears, thinking if she wasn’t in our life. And then I looked at all of them, and I just thought, each one of those children is of infinite value.
SPEAKER 04 :
In fact, I met you all several months ago in Phoenix, and we had breakfast together. That’s right. We were sitting around the table, and you were… You were talking about your children. And when you talked about the possibility of not knowing the last six because you almost stopped at four, you got tears in your eyes. And you’ve got them now.
SPEAKER 05 :
I do. And it’s just incredible to me to think about going through eternity without knowing these children. And yet we take that ability to cooperate with God personally. For God to make children, because he’s the one that creates children. We somehow think biologically that we’re involved in making children. And certainly God uses principles that he has created. But ultimately, as David spoke to God in Psalm 139, he said that God had formed him in the womb. And I had wanted to think in terms of this being under my control. And I thought four kids is really enough to have. We had four darling daughters. And for some reason, we just did not feel that it was right for us to take control of this area. As we read in Scripture, we saw how God was involved in opening the womb and closing the womb, particularly in the Old Testament. And we decided through much prayer and soul searching that this area ought to be in God’s hands. So we gave it to God’s hands. And I really was praying myself that God would somehow close my wife’s womb because I felt, I know that I can’t handle more than four kids. But meanwhile, Marcia was praying at the same time.
SPEAKER 06 :
Well, yeah, it’s amazing how prayer had such a part in this thing. Because I was like standing, and I remember where I was in our house. It was a smaller house than we have now, but we had those four little girls. And I was kind of just talking to God and saying, God, isn’t this about enough? We have four, and we’re busy. We love them, but isn’t this about enough, humanly speaking? Randy wanted an airplane. I knew that. And you can only get about a six-passenger, even within our vision of what we might eventually afford. And it was there. And I knew that God, if He did, I prayed. I said, isn’t this enough? But God, I caught myself not wanting to end talking to Him there. But if you want us to have more, change Randy’s heart. And it was no major prayer to me at that time, but look at how God did hear that. I didn’t even tell Randy I prayed that, and he just began to change his heart, and he wanted another child. That was amazing.
SPEAKER 04 :
You are really serious, Marcia, about wanting three more.
SPEAKER 06 :
Oh, I would love to have more if the Lord would let us.
SPEAKER 04 :
Would you be embarrassed to tell us your age?
SPEAKER 1 :
42.
SPEAKER 04 :
42, and you still want three more kids. Well, they’re His kids.
SPEAKER 06 :
And it’s a high calling.
SPEAKER 04 :
The choice was taken away from us. We couldn’t have any more. And that was a time of considerable grief for us because I grew up as an only child in a family of only children. And we have a very small family. And I would love to have… a family like you have with kids all over the place. There is such security in that and such love. And yet you’re going cross-grain against the whole culture in the Western world. Now, when you got off the plane to come here, a family sent you out here. The cost of airfare would have been incredible and was incredible. When you got off the plane and you’re walking through the airport and you’re a mob of 12, what do people, how do they react to you?
SPEAKER 05 :
Well, some people ignore us and some people look and then they look again and then they look again. Yeah. And then many people are really drawn to seeing this family of typically smiling children that look related to each other and will often get comments, are they all yours? Right.
SPEAKER 06 :
We’ve got one of those on the way here.
SPEAKER 05 :
Yes, that’s right.
SPEAKER 06 :
And she was just taken aback. She just kept commenting, oh, these children. It’s like there are testimony in their faces. I’ll say, oh, and you’re here. It’s only 10 o’clock. It was nothing to get there by 10. We get to church earlier than that and here today earlier. But just kept commenting. And it’s such a wonderful opportunity to share Christ with this person. I mean, it’s like the Lord might bring some up.
SPEAKER 04 :
Tell me how. How do you use this for the Lord?
SPEAKER 06 :
Well, I just knew, even as I talked to her, I didn’t have much time. We were standing and waiting to get the tickets, whatever they do to them, stamped or whatever. And I just said, well, you know, they’re really God’s children, and we love them, but we can’t take credit for them being here. And I had this little track thing that’s really kind of neat, that each child wrote a little paragraph, just what they would like to say to somebody. It says, what does this family have to say at the top? It’s got a black and white picture at the top.
SPEAKER 04 :
And it’s your kids that have made these statements. Right.
SPEAKER 06 :
And then it just tells what, how do we do? We’re not perfect. We have our times for sure. But God is the one that helps us to forgive each other and get up and love each other.
SPEAKER 04 :
That’s the thing that has impressed me just in the period of time that I’ve known you all is how organized this big clan is. You’d almost have to do that or you’d go crazy, wouldn’t you? You have the older kids with certain assignments. Tell me how that works.
SPEAKER 06 :
With the household jobs, usually we go through once a year and just sort of have a list of all the possible jobs. I try to think of every job in the house, and I have my share too. But just that it’s like on this list, and then we tell the children the possible jobs one by one, and they can raise their hand and volunteer for a certain job for that. Usually it’s for a year. And they have certain ones that they have for, we call them bigs, that they do once a week. Scrubbing floors, usually it’s once a week. And other ones are dailies. We call them dailies, but it’s like twice a week that they do that. And they’re kind of in charge. Like one will straighten a bathroom every day. Everything is covered. Laundry, too. Each girl has a certain color thing. They do darks.
SPEAKER 04 :
Randy, tell me, as a father, how you feel about these kids. First of all, you gave up your dream of the airplane. I mean, that had to go.
SPEAKER 05 :
Well, Marcia was too quick when she described how I felt when she told me she was pregnant with number five. Remember, I said that she was praying that she would have more children. I was saying, boy, before God, I really feel that this should be God’s decision. And I really thank God, loving me and understanding my situation. He will close my wife’s womb because I can’t handle more kids. Um, so we, uh, you know, related to each other as husband and wife. And along came the day when she came up to me and said, as only a wife can say to a husband, you know, Randy, I just don’t feel so good. And in my mind’s eye, I could see this green six passenger airplane in a graveyard spiral crash. I felt depressed for two weeks, uh, And I say that to my shame. And on the outside, I tried to say, aren’t you happy? Marsha would say, sure. But inside, I was just thinking, this is awful. Five kids. Now, again, I say that to my shame because I didn’t think I could handle five kids. I didn’t think she could handle five kids. My picture of God was small in that sense. Well… The reason I had tears when we talked about this before is that I just think about what life would be without the next one that came along and the following. But David, his name means beloved. And he is such a precious young man. I wish you could spend time getting to know him. But he wouldn’t be here if I had run that part of my life. But my attitude of feeling upset with that next child coming along, to me, is a pro-abortion attitude. People do not have abortions because they want to kill babies. They have abortions because they have other things in life more important than having a child. And this pregnancy is inconvenient. This child is inconvenient. Yet they want to relate sexually, you understand.
SPEAKER 04 :
This is the essence of the philosophy that the pro-life… position, the pro-life movement, the pro-life understanding involves a lot more than just preventing the killing of babies. It involves how we feel about life, about God’s precious gift of procreation, of bringing a youngster into the world. You and I talked before about how many parents approach the arrival of a baby or or even the adoption of a baby, like you would buy a new car or a used car, kicking the wheels, looking it over, seeing if it’s adequate, if it’s going to serve you well, when in fact every one of those little children are worth more than the possessions of the entire world. That’s right. So it’s a whole attitude toward children that you’re talking about.
SPEAKER 05 :
And who’s in charge of making these children? We have such a biological viewpoint of life. where we say, well, do you want to make a baby this year, wife? Well, I don’t know. Do we have money in the bank? Do you feel like it? I don’t know. I don’t know. And that is so ungodly. God is the one who says, I want a young man or a young woman for a purpose. I mean, we can look to biblical days. We can think of God making a Moses when Moses’ parents already had their millionaire’s family, their boy and their girl. Aaron and Mary. And there was trouble in the land. There was overpopulation and everything else. And if you had a boy, baby, he’s dead meat. And they said, no, we are going to be open to God for a child. And God said, I want to raise the leader, greatest leader the world’s ever seen in the form of Moses. We see Jeremiah 1, 5, where God says, before I formed you in the womb, I knew you and I appointed you to be a prophet to the nations. God wants to make children to be leaders and followers and servants in our culture. And we as Christians treat it, like you said, like picking out a car or what side of the town do you want to live on or what kind of car do you want or whatever. It’s not that way. It should be in God’s hands. If we really want them to be Lord of our lives, why not this area? We’re talking about whether or not children are going to be created by God who have the potential to impact eternity. And we demean that. We raise up sexuality to the point where we actually worship it as a culture. And yet we so demean the creation of children of the potential of living forever.
SPEAKER 04 :
Marcia, let me play a game with you. Let me say some words that I’m sure you’ve heard before and then you answer them for me. Suppose I’m a neighbor friend of yours who comes over for coffee in the morning, and this person says, Marcia, I don’t want to offend you or anything, but if you really want to know what I’m thinking, I don’t think it’s fair for you to have all these children. The world’s natural resources are in short supply, and there’s only so much to go around. And if everybody did what you’re doing— We would just totally overpopulate this world. And in fact, that is happening now. And you’re not being responsible in bringing all these kids into the world. You’ve heard the argument. What do you say to people like that?
SPEAKER 06 :
Well, Randy would be a better one for the facts on this thing, but really the whole world can fit in the state of Texas, is it? He did a study on this because it really is a myth that we’re overpopulated. There’s plenty of room in a lot of these children that we don’t want. Think of the potential. Think of… The discoveries that they could even make, that God might have put in some of these that we’re saying no to for things they might invent or ways to use food or get food. But it’s a myth. The overpopulation thing is really a myth.
SPEAKER 04 :
It’s really unbiblical, too, isn’t it? He said be fruitful and multiply.
SPEAKER 05 :
That’s right. The thing which depletes our ability to really feed ourselves is not numbers of people, but it’s disobedience. Actually, throughout Scripture, it’s when God’s people have not followed God that God sent famines and other sorts of problems, typically. And there’s some excellent writings by Dr. Julian Simon, for example, the unlimited resource, who shows, actually, he’s an economist, who shows how, in the history of the world, if you give people the freedom to respond to temporary shortages… that actually the more people there are, the higher the per capita standard of living can be because people respond with their minds and are able to be very productive, much more efficient. It used to require everyone needed to have a copper pot, for example, to cook things in. We don’t need all that copper anymore, just for example. And the actual per capita or per unit cost of a unit of copper has actually declined in history because we’ve been able to be more efficient with resources.
SPEAKER 04 :
You know what is really interesting to me, and I haven’t totally formulated this thought, but I’m working on it. In the Old Testament, we’re told the Lord says, behold, I’ve set before you life and death, therefore choose life. If you look at those that are In the anti-family frame of mind, those that come with the secular humanistic mindset, they favor death in all of its contexts. Not only abortion, but infanticide, the killing of handicapped children, euthanasia. This attitude here that you’re referring to, and the Lord calls us to celebrate life. He is the giver of life. And I saw the most extreme example of that in the first week of April 1990, Newsweek magazine, where – In fact, the writer extended that death concept to its ultimate extreme. I can’t believe that anybody would be stupid enough to write the article that this guy did, much less Newsweek publishing it. But he proposed, because of this overpopulation problem that we have, quote unquote, in fact – we’re approaching zero population growth. We’re below zero population growth. If it were not for immigrants, right?
SPEAKER 05 :
Even with immigrants, we will have a population decline. The U.S. Census Bureau is projecting a population decline in the United States within 45 years, including immigration. That is that deaths will outnumber births plus immigration.
SPEAKER 04 :
Well, that makes this even more foolish because what he is suggesting and proposing is that when a girl turns 13 and is pubescent, that the government give her $400 for not getting pregnant in one year. The second year, she gets $500. The third year, $600. The next year, $700, up to 52 years of age, or $100,000 that she would be paid to remain barren. And the cost for this is $117 billion, which he has some convoluted way of computing that we’re going to save money through the welfare system. And can you imagine what that really means? What if women believed that? Yeah. I mean, they’re bouncing along with a wagon load of humanity out behind in about 15 or 18 years, and you no longer have a choice. It’s over. And so then you have this aging, dying, selfish population heading toward death with no newness and no freshness and no springtime. and no regeneration and no procreation and no babies and no maternity wards and no pediatricians and no toys and no schools and no joy and the giggles of childhood. All of that would be gone. You got this wrinkled up, dying population. That is the dumbest thing I’ve ever heard anybody say in the history of mankind. And yet he said it with a straight face, apparently, and Newsweek published it as though that was a good idea.
SPEAKER 05 :
I know, it’s preposterous. It just shows how far this death mentality has gone. There’s a proverb, Proverbs 14, 12. It’s repeated in Proverbs 16, 25. There’s a way that seems right unto a man. There’s a lot of things that seem reasonable, logical. Yeah, that makes sense. But the end thereof are the ways of death. And that’s what we’ve done to our culture. Man, apart from God and his wisdom, inevitably heads toward death. And that’s the way our culture is going. Apart from Christians taking a stand. I can’t blame the non-Christian world for not understanding God’s principles. But I can blame Christians for not practicing God’s principles. That’s what needs to happen. Christians need to lead lovingly by our radical, if you will, biblical-centered lives. And by God helping us, that’s what Marcia and I have been trying to do.
SPEAKER 04 :
I do feel a need for an expression of some balance because I’m concerned about the exceptions that are out there. There are infertile couples out there who have perhaps wept through this discussion. It isn’t fair. You guys have ten, want three more. I can’t have one. There are also people out there who are not well. who are physically ill, who are not able to keep up with the children they have. I know the Lord can do a miracle in their lives, but they still have to deal with an additional issue that we haven’t talked about here. And there are other people who are in real poverty. There are other circumstances, but I felt our listeners need to hear how you all feel about this. And I wish that they could be here to see that family of 10 out there. You wouldn’t take a… A million dollars for one of them, would you? Not a billion. Not two billion. And I can see why. Marsha, you going to have some more?
SPEAKER 06 :
I hope. It’s really up to God, even as you’re talking about these people. I just love these people, too. You know, you’re talking about they can’t have children. Because I’ve seen, I’ve had miscarriages, too, and it’s hard. Because Jesus, you know, we don’t always understand what He’s doing. But we can take our hurts to Him and just pray and trust Him. Amen.
SPEAKER 05 :
That’s basically our point is that we’re not saying to have a million children. We’re saying give this area to the lordship of Jesus Christ and be open to him for what he has. And he is sovereign whether you have children or don’t have children. He must be sovereign in this area. And there’s always, we need foster parents and we need adoptive parents for those who cannot have children. There’s lots of children looking for homes. And so God loves us all and will meet us where we’re at.
SPEAKER 04 :
You know what’s exciting to me? I don’t know who it is. I have no idea where this person is. But there’s somebody out there listening to us today who has been struggling with this very issue. Almost accidentally turned on the radio today and heard this discussion. And the Lord is speaking through it. and there will be a little child. in their arms because of what we’ve had to say today.
SPEAKER 05 :
Doesn’t that excite you? That does. In fact, I’ve been able to see that. I’ve gone out to speak on this issue, and a year later, I’ll come back to that same area, and they’ll bring either a picture or a little baby in their arms. They’ll say, you caused this child by what you said, and this just does nothing but give me great joy and credit to God.
SPEAKER 04 :
Let’s talk some more. Randy, I’d like to hear more about your experiences as a juvenile court judge, and Bring that into this discussion. So let’s let’s carry on.
SPEAKER 02 :
You’ve been listening to Dr. James Dobson’s Family Talk and a remarkable conversation about God’s design for family with Randy and Marsha Heckman. Now their journey from wanting just four children to embracing God’s bigger plan reminds us that life’s greatest blessings come when we surrender to God’s perfect wisdom. Now, if you missed any portion of today’s program, or if you’d like to share it with a friend, go to drjamesdobson.org forward slash family talk. That’s drjamesdobson.org forward slash family talk. There you’ll find the complete program along with information about Randy’s book called Sweeter by the Dozen. Again, drjamesdobson.org is where you’ll find that information. Well, Mother’s Day is coming up this Sunday, and we want to celebrate the incredible women who shape our lives and also shape future generations as well. That’s why we’ve created a free resource called Empowering Moms. It’s an email series that features a daily dose of encouragement designed specifically for mothers. Each five-minute reading delivers practical parenting wisdom rooted in Scripture, plus an uplifting prayer to carry you through your day. While motherhood is truly an amazing privilege, we understand it can also be the toughest job on earth. Let us come alongside you with this simple but powerful resource. To get yours, go online to drjamesdobson.org and enter your name and email address there on our landing page. You’ll start receiving daily inspiration for your role as a mother today. Again, for the free Empowering Moms email series, go to drjamesdobson.org. These daily broadcasts are made possible through the generous support of friends like you who value biblical truth in an ever-changing culture. Since 2010, the Dr. James Dobson Family Institute has stood firm in defending the sanctity of human life, the importance of marriage, and the critical role parents play in raising the next generation. Your gift today helps us continue sharing timeless wisdom and practical guidance with millions of families who need encouragement and hope. You can make a secure donation online at drjamesdobson.org, or you can call us at 877-732-6825. That’s 877-732-6825. Well, I’m Roger Marsh, and on behalf of Dr. Dobson and all of us here at the JDFI, thanks so much for listening today. Be sure to join us again next time for part two of the inspiring conversation with Randy and Marsha Heckman. discussing the joys of raising a large family. That’s coming up right here on the next edition of Dr. James Dobson’s Family Talk.
SPEAKER 01 :
This has been a presentation of the Dr. James Dobson Family Institute.
SPEAKER 03 :
Well, thank you, everyone, for tuning into our program today. You may know that Family Talk is a listener-supported program, and we remain on the air by your generosity, literally. If you can help us financially, we would certainly appreciate it. God’s blessings to you all.
In this episode of Family Talk, Dr. James Dobson sits down with Randy and Marsha Heckman, a couple whose family journey perfectly illustrates the blessings of surrendering to God’s will. They reflect on their life with 12 children and a philosophy that places God’s sovereignty at the forefront of family planning. Listen as they discuss society’s misconceptions about overpopulation and the deeper spiritual calling that ignites the pro-life movement. This heartfelt conversation will challenge and inspire you to view family life through a sacred, biblically grounded lens.
