Dive deep into themes of forgiveness and redemption as Paul Young elaborates on often-missed nuances in ‘The Shack’. Learn how embracing our scars and releasing past traumas through forgiveness can lead to an enriched and liberated life. This episode isn’t just about theory; Paul connects his personal stories to universal truths, offering listeners practical wisdom on becoming unstuck and opening their hearts to transformative love.
Welcome, everyone, to The Calling’s radio show to all the dreamers. I’m your radio host, Chrysandra Brunson, founder and CEO of The Calling, and it is such an honor to be with all of you today. You know, at The Calling, we have realized that so many people are afraid to go after the dreams that God has put on their hearts because they are afraid to fail, and that is just plain wrong because God has given each one of us a dream, and if we’re not living it out, we are wasting it. And we are not trusting God. We love to be able to inspire, empower and equip people to be able to live out God’s calling on their lives and walk with him step by step to live out that long lasting legacy and not die with regret. We do this through global custom programs, including conferences, workshops, seminars. And we are so excited to also do that through this radio program and have people world-renowned guests like we have today, the one and only Paul William Young. Or William Paul Young.
PAUL YOUNG :
Yeah, the William doesn’t matter.
CHRYSANDRA :
Well, you are just such a treasured friend. Just was sharing before this show, Paul, that you just mean so much to the Colleen and I and just to hearts around the world of just getting to know Papa better. And for those that may not be familiar, just I think that might… be hardly any, but Paul is the author of the world-renowned book, The Shack, and the movie you may have seen as well called The Shack. And we have just been learning so much wisdom from this incredible heart and just seeing how there’s so much more to pull out. And so we’re so glad that you’re back, Paul, and we want you back as often as you will come. Actually, Paul, I want to bring this up that I was up with the amazing Bethel community just a little bit ago and was with Annette Biggers. And I don’t know if you remember Annette, but we were together when we first met at the creative conference up there. But just talking about how much wisdom that you poured out even at that lunch with us and that we just felt like we were sitting with Jesus and praying. just hearing his heart for us in the world. So yes, we, so just know that it’s just a ripple effect of, um, illuminating people’s hearts. And I, from this last episode, Paul, you were talking about how you, there is a part of the manuscript that was left out of the movie. Oh yeah. Even the book, if you, and just, can you just take us back to that? Um, you know, where Mac was just trying to see where God was and what happened, but it wasn’t fully inside of the script.
PAUL YOUNG :
Yeah, it was wrong, actually. And, you know, it’s a good thing to make mistakes. And especially if something you do becomes iconic, in a sense. And The Shack did.
PAUL YOUNG :
Unexpectedly, right? Because I never intended to be the published author. So… And when it happened, if it had happened in my 20s or 30s, it would have been a massive problem because I wasn’t ready. I was I didn’t know who I was in my 20s and 30s and only began to understand who I was in my 40s. And I’m now 67. So I’ve I’ve understood that my identity is. identity, worth, you know, all of these things are not dependent on what I do. And I run into that a lot with those who are focused on the creative parts of more, more so focused. It’s easy for a creative to begin to think their identity is creativity, which is a huge mistake because our identity is child of God, you know, sons of God, which is not male or female and, and being made in the image of God. And that’s wrapped in the uniqueness of our own history. That’s the landscape on which the image of God is then portrayed. So if you create an identity on something other than that, some form of art or music or dance or anything, and I think everybody’s a creative because we’re made in the image and likeness of God. But if you focus on that as your identity, as soon as somebody tells you they don’t like it, then you’re down in a hole. Then who am I? Like if you think your identity is a football player or based on what you do, then as soon as you can’t do that anymore, who are you? You cannot draw your identity from something outside of yourself. And that includes your work. That includes even your participation with God. You cannot do that or else… it’s inevitable that you’re going to run into trouble. So identity, worth, value, significance, security, meaning, purpose, destiny, community, love, all derives from your relationship with the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. None of it comes from social media. None of it comes from other people’s opinions. None of it comes from comparison or competition or what gets promoted. Yeah. So that’s a, you know, I come from a perfectionist type of background and as a result, performance oriented. And so it’s good to make mistakes. And and this one is it’s a serious theological mistake, but most people would be unaware. And so there’s a scene in which in the book and they I told them that if they put this scene in the movie, I would like them to correct it. But it didn’t make the cut, which is fine. But it’s when the shack, which is McKenzie’s soul, it’s his inner world. And it is a shack. It’s a total mess. But it gets transformed. And he still doesn’t know what it is, but it is the truth of who he is. But he is not comfortable inside the truth of who he is. And it’s this beautiful, habitable place in which the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit dwell. And when he goes in there, he looks to where Missy’s bloodstain was. And it’s gone. And that’s a mistake. Right? The mistake is that the things in our life that harm us, the things in our life that are tragedies and trauma, they don’t just disappear because if they just disappeared, that is not the redemption of those things. That is just the annihilation of those things. That’s just a form of trying to forget. Right. And, and so, you know, for Jesus to have scars on his wrists and on his side is, That’s redeemed, and it becomes really important for the disciples. It becomes important for us so that we don’t somehow think that those things don’t matter. You know, we buried my dad in May, and… And there was only nine of us at the graveside because my father didn’t want a celebration or a big service or any of those things. And it was all family except for the funeral director. And the funeral director began to share with us, not there, but with my sister and I about the tragedies and traumas in his own life. And then at the burial, he, We were talking about the truth of how difficult our relationship with our dad had been, as well as the work that he had done to change, right? And the funeral director says, isn’t it great that once we die, you know, we pass through the veil, none of this will have mattered, right? And everything will be perfect. And I said, I’d like to disagree with you in the kindest way possible and in the strongest sense possible, because all of this mattered. All of this becomes woven into the sound and the sound that we are each individually as persons. And so for Jesus to have nail scars, that absolutely matters. It is indicative of his love. his participation in our salvation, you know, and it, and those things which are not annihilated in their redemption become, they become marks of the work of God. that heal us, right? They become monuments and icons of grace of love. And it doesn’t justify what was done to us or that we participated in out of our ignorance or self-centeredness or whatever doesn’t justify, but you know, the shack as in terms of what it has done, um, And my own story and the stupidity of what I participated in, in my story, regardless of what was done to me as a child, it doesn’t justify my choices. But they’ve been redeemed in a way that they’ve spilled out on the lives of other people, right? who have been harmed in some of the same ways that I have been. And so I bear my own scars. And listen to this, because Jesus lives in me. He is filling up his own suffering in me. And he is filling up the redemption of that suffering in me and in you and in every single person. And we are filling up the sufferings of Christ, not as if we’re separated and doing a work, as absolutely one in our union. And he continues to fill up his own sufferings in us. And so we bear the marks of that redemptive journey and it becomes part of the beautiful, iconic monuments. We become those. And we and it says we are the aroma of Christ to God. I’m quoting. We are the aroma of Christ to God for those who are perishing. It’s an aroma from life to life. And for those who are being saved, it’s an aroma from death to death. And what that what that means is. When somebody looks at our life and they’re in a process of perishing and they see the redemptive work of God in our lives, it becomes an aroma of life to life. Oh my gosh, I can change. I can live in a different way. And for those who are being saved, it’s an aroma from death to death because there is so much that has to die in my self-centeredness. And that’s why we become icons and aroma of Christ to God.
CHRYSANDRA :
Wow. Paul, you, I mean, we’re just all again, once again, just in awe of this message. And we need to take a short break here. But we thank everybody for tuning in to All the Dreamers. We have the world-renowned Paul Young with us, author of The Shack. We’ll be right back. Twist and Shout with Lee & Co. They are the premier oldies band delivering the rock and roll vibes you’ve been missing. Great songs, great memories. Book them at LeeAndCo.com. Hi guys, this is Chrysandra Brunson, host of To All The Dreamers. I am so happy to introduce personal training, nutritional guidance, and behavioral change coaching. Healthy, happy, and heavenly for your wellness, spirit, soul, and body. Contact Mimi Kroger at healthyhappyandheavenly.com. Continue to grow in the calling God has for you through ORU Online.
PAUL YOUNG :
You can earn your degree without changing your busy schedule. 100% online and 100% on your time. Learn more today, oru.edu slash calling.
CHRYSANDRA :
At Ignite Brilliance Coaching, you will get 34 years of science teaching, a decade of university-level instruction, and over 10 years of instructional coaching to empower educators with the tools, mindset, and confidence to thrive. Contact Ignite Brilliance Coaching on Facebook. We are back. Thank you for tuning in to All the Dreamers radio show. We have the one and only Paul Young with us, author of The Shack, and just talking about… just this profound statement of taking on our scars and this parallel, this story, Paul, of you, your father, of you having to bury your father this last May and talking about with family members that you wouldn’t have to bear Those sins, you know, you wouldn’t have to bear those situations anymore. And the wisdom that you just shared with us that they actually become monuments and just fragrance of the aroma of Christ to those all around us. Paul, what would what? So this is just such a I mean, there’s so many parts of the shack. But I just think of that situation, the story that you just shared in that wisdom of the garden inside of the shack. And, you know, Mac having to bury his daughter. And, you know, he didn’t know that Jesus was working on that. um, just putting together the casket and all those butterflies inside of it. And, you know, that’s what he was working on when, um, he was like, Oh, I’m just going to go work on this.
PAUL YOUNG :
And Mac would, um, have, and it was, he was invited to, to work with the Holy spirit in a garden. And he didn’t know, he didn’t know it was his own heart. And, and they dug up, um, that whole beautiful bed of flowers. And it’s like, but it’s a beautiful bed of flowers. Why are you digging this up? And it’s because he is stuck. He’s, and he’s created this, this memory of his daughter and he got stuck there. And so the Holy spirit says, you know, we’ve got to move you. We’ve got to replace this memory. memory, these memories of your daughter in which you can’t move on in your life. And so we’ve got to remove something beautiful where you’re stuck and replace it with something else. And that’s where there is a movement in the garden from this little beautiful flower bed that is actually in Mackenzie’s heart in which he is stuck. But from his tears will come something even better, which is a tree of life that will allow him to move on. And so, yeah, he doesn’t realize that he’s in his own heart working. But it’s the Holy Spirit who is working with him.
CHRYSANDRA :
Yes. And asking him to dig out the, that part that he was stuck in. And what do you think, like, Paul, how do we become unstuck in these traumas, especially just, I think this whole wave of tragedy that a lot of us have bared in different relationships or situations with jobs, careers, that there’s a shifting of a new understanding of healing and, you know, So from Mac’s perspective, what can we learn from that with healing that?
PAUL YOUNG :
Yeah, the easiest and best thing, and probably the first thing, and it takes Mac a long time to get to this spot, but it was to forgive. And forgiveness is the way to get unstuck. And not only someone who has perpetrated something against us, but forgiving ourselves, you know, which is, I think, way harder. But the good news is that if you have faith, The size of a mustard seed, which is a very, very small seed.
PAUL YOUNG :
You can say to the mountain of unforgiveness, be picked up and cast into the sea. And and I think a lot of us get confused between forgiveness and reconciliation. Forgiveness is for the sake of the one who’s been the victim, the victimized one. And and so forgiveness is to let go. I think a lot of people are stuck because they’re waiting for the ones who have harmed us to change. And they’re afraid to forgive because they think it means that, well, if I forgive, I need to trust that person. That’s proof. No, that’s just unwise. You don’t have to trust the person who harmed you in order to be the mark of forgiveness. But what you do if you don’t forgive, if you don’t let that person go, if that person and that event still becomes a constant barrier to growth and movement, then you’re carrying around a corpse on your back and poisoning everything else in your life. So it’s for the sake of the one who’s been harmed. So if you’ve been harmed, Yeah. Then if you have faith the size of a mustard seed, you can say to the mountain of harm that has been done to you, picked up and thrown into the sea. And that will allow you to move forward. I think another thing that stops people from or where they’re stuck is. They’re afraid to be wrong. You know, they’ve been taught to be perfectionist performers. And so it freezes them. I know a lot of people who want to write something, but their identity is in what they write. And so they’re frozen. They can’t move. And people ask me all the time, so I want to write a book. How do I do this? And I said, write. Just start writing. You know, you can edit it later. If your identity is within you and God has told you who you are, then you’re free to do anything. You’re free to not be good at something because how in the world are you going to get better at it unless you’re not good at it?
CHRYSANDRA :
Yeah, you’re exactly right that people are frozen because their identity is inside of that dream or that calling instead of God’s heart.
PAUL YOUNG :
Yeah. So that means they’re stuck in their history because they have these photographs that they keep in that internal album about how they were harmed, right? How they were hurt, how that person did something to them. And the thing about these photographs is they’re framed. And you look at this… this picture and everybody in that picture is stuck, including themselves. They’re in that, and the people that harmed them are stuck because, because years later you can see that same person and you put them right back into that photograph. They can’t change because they’re, they’re in the prison of your own past. And so that’s part of that thing too.
CHRYSANDRA :
I love that idea of the picture frame and having it frozen. I think that there’s just a whole nother level of freedom that we get to walk into when we are able to release that and to have that mustard seed of faith just to let go and to trust that God is going to heal and make a beautiful garden out of it. Paul, can you describe to us just the different aspects of the shack, the symbolism inside of each one of those?
PAUL YOUNG :
Yeah. The first thing I’d say, it’s the Holy Spirit that invites Mackenzie to work in the garden, you know. And Mackenzie doesn’t understand. He’s just going along with it, you know. He doesn’t realize that what he is actually working on is his own heart. Doesn’t know that. And his perspective is so small. He just sees what’s right in front of him, you know, to work on. He doesn’t realize that there’s this whole, if he could be up above it and see the garden, there is this massive intricacy and beautiful reality. That’s a part of it. And, and in that I’m trying to say to people, look, Mm-hmm. And I think that in the New Testament, you see Paul, that’s what his prayers are all about, that your eyes would be open, that you would see the reality that you are now a part of, that you would see how big God is. And when you see how big God is, the width, the height, the breadth of God’s love for you, you begin to see the width and breadth and height of you being created inside the image and likeness of God. And so it not only raises your understanding of who God is, it augments and lifts the understanding of who you are as a human being. And yeah, there are mountains and there are valleys, but but the beauty is having the eyes to see you the way that God sees you.
CHRYSANDRA :
Right.
PAUL YOUNG :
And that goes back to the forgiveness issue, right? And to let go of all the external damages, at least to let go as they have impacted your sense of worth and value and significance and security and meaning and purpose, which all means that you have to take some risks because trust is always risky, right?
CHRYSANDRA :
Right.
PAUL YOUNG :
Forgiveness is risky. And a lot of people are stuck in one sense or another because they they have a really hard time making any step of trust.
CHRYSANDRA :
Well, Paul, these go by so quickly. And just love. This is just such a power. I really feel like we all needed to hear this today. And I’m excited for people to tune in today. And then you’ll be able to hear it as well on the Callings podcast. And just to really sink in this truth into our heart and let it sink in. Paul, we want everyone to be able to stay in touch with you. And we weren’t even able to tap into this upcoming season yet. But we, of course, would love you back. As well as how can people stay in touch with you and see what’s coming next in this season?
PAUL YOUNG :
You know… I’m not very good at all that and purposefully not good at it. So, you know, there’s a shack website. There’s a… I don’t even know the name of the website or the Facebook page and all that kind of stuff. I just, you know, I just don’t care about any of that stuff. So… You know, you can always go on YouTube and put my name in there and it’ll pop a whole bunch of stuff up there. I do have, let’s see, I have a website. You could Google… William Paul Young or W.M. Paul Young or something. So there’s a website out there that has a lot of the thing that it has is a lot of resources for people who are wanting to learn and think and grow and and point you toward other people that are really having conversations about these things. So that’s where I’d point you. And anytime that something happens and I have, you know, I’ve got somebody who I can tell, would you put this on that website? They will about what’s ever coming up. And, you know, like I said, whatever.
CHRYSANDRA :
Well, Paul, we thank you for being such a, um, A servant, but also just a son of God and walking in that full identity and allowing us to be able to get to know Papa Holy Spirit in Jesus’s heart. So it can inherently and beautifully. And we just thank you for your time and. Can’t wait for you to be on next time.
PAUL YOUNG :
If I’m alive and God wills.
CHRYSANDRA :
That would be great. Well, we thank everybody for tuning in to today’s show, to all the dreamers. I’m your radio host, Chrysandra Brunson. We invite you to go to The Calling’s website, thecallingnonprofit.org. to connect with Paul and to be able to connect with other world changers that allow us to be able to be empowered to walk in the fullness of our identity and God’s calling on our lives to walk with him and to experience life to the fullest. We cannot wait to hear about your God-given dreams. We invite you to be able to become God’s dreamer. Keep dreaming big.
