In this thought-provoking episode of Real Science Radio, host Fred Williams is joined by experts Donnie and Matt from Standing for Truth Ministries. Together, they explore the riveting evidence from genetic studies that aligns with the Biblical account of humanity’s origins with Adam and Eve. Delving into mitochondrial DNA and Y-chromosome evidence, the discussion highlights fascinating insights and mutation rates that point toward a historical reset far different from what traditional evolution suggests. Listeners will gain new appreciation for how science continues to unravel the complexities of our ancestry, aligning with narratives held for generations. As Fred and his
Welcome back to Real Science Radio. I’m Fred Williams, and today we’re picking up right where we left off. with compelling genetic evidence that confirms what the Bible has said all along. Adam and Eve were real historical people. In this second half of our conversation with Donnie and Matt from Standing for Truth Ministries, we’ll walk through the cutting-edge mutation rate studies, the mitochondrial DNA clock, and the Y-chromosome evidence that points directly back to our first parents. And then, stick around, because we’re going to tackle the evolution of the so-called best argument for common ancestry – indigenous retroviruses. Are they leftovers from our ape-like past or part of God’s original design? You’ll want to hear this.
SPEAKER 06 :
Scholars can’t explain it all away. Get ready to be awed by the handiwork of God.
SPEAKER 1 :
Tune in to Real Science Radio. Turn up the Real Science Radio.
SPEAKER 06 :
Keeping it real.
SPEAKER 01 :
I’d like to cover something briefly, gentlemen, that I think will be fascinating to your audience and perhaps Matt can expand on the significance of the observed mutation rate and how we can get these mutation rates from what’s called pedigree studies where we look at, for example, grandparents, parents, and kids, so if it’s the mitochondrial DNA, you can look at grandmothers, mothers, daughters, count up the differences, and what you get is a fast rate. And the same thing is true for the Y chromosome. The rate is very fast, about one to three per generation. what the significance is for the origin of Adam and Eve, how far they go back, we can have Matt touch on. But here is some fascinating evidence that supports what Genesis 9.19 says. These are the three sons of Noah, and of them was the whole earth overspread. Well, right here is a mitochondrial DNA phylogenetic tree. what you can do and specifically Dr. Nathaniel Jensen of AIG did this. He took mitochondrial DNA worldwide, and he compared them in a phylogenetic tree like this. Mitochondrial DNA, it’s what’s called uniparentally inherited DNA, so it’s only passed down on one side, specifically the mother’s side. It’s outside of the nucleus. It’s a smaller DNA compartment. It’s about 16,500 letters long. It’s involved in energy production. and we’ve been able to trace back all worldwide mitochondrial dna to a single woman but in terms of this phylogenetic tree amazingly what you’ll notice is right in the middle you’ll have these you see these three arrows you’ve got three nodes so what does the bible say in genesis 9 19 well the earth was overspread by three reproducing couples, right? You have the flood bottleneck, and you have Noah, his wife, their three sons, Shem, Ham, and Japheth, and their three wives. Those would be the daughters-in-law of Noah. Now, we just learned that mitochondrial DNA is inherited maternally, so if what the Bible says again in Genesis 9-19, if that’s true, then in the mitochondrial DNA, we should be able to trace back all mitochondrial DNA to three main starting points. And in technical terms, what these are, the evolutionary community doesn’t even contest this. These are the L, M, and N haplogroups, these three major nodes. And so on this tree, this is a phylogenetic tree, these lines, they represent DNA differences or mutations. And the lines separating, this is very interesting, the lines separating these three major nodes, they’re short. Okay, so if the lines are mutations, that means These women here are only separated by a few mutations, less than 10 easily. The lines radiating out, as you can see, they’re very long, a lot longer than the line separating L, M, and N. That means more time, more mutations, more diversity. So what is this tree representing? Well, I think it’s amazing. You’ve got pre-flood mutations here. The three women that came off of the ark, specifically Shem, Ham, and Japheth’s wives, and radiating out from them are post-flood mutations, post-flood people, post-flood individuals and people groups. And so amazingly, we can trace back mitochondrial DNA to… Three major haplogroups. The Bible says that we’ve all come from three reproducing couples. To the evolutionists, this has to be a coincidence. But to the biblical creationists like us three, this is amazing confirmation of what Genesis says about human origins. Amen.
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Good stuff.
SPEAKER 07 :
Yeah, so everything’s tracing back to three women. So how many women were on the ark?
SPEAKER 01 :
Yeah, well, technically on the earth, good question. You have four, Noah’s wife. So assuming that Noah and his wife didn’t have any more daughters, then the three founding couples, basically, would be Shem, Ham, Japheth, And their three wives. Yeah.
SPEAKER 07 :
I think maybe we throw in an interesting aside. What do you say, Doug? Oh, no.
SPEAKER 04 :
I don’t know, Fred. I don’t know if that’s necessary. Is that really necessary at this point? I wonder if it is. That could be fun.
SPEAKER 07 :
Only because Dominic Ginyart did a short on this topic. And so not on this, what we’re talking about here, Donnie and Matt. But it’s on the three daughters of Eve. I think that was the name of the paper that Dr. Carter, Rob Carter, did originally on this, which was fantastic. We totally agree. This is huge evidence for the Bible. But something that Bob, some research he had did that I just want to mention. It’ll take about a minute. And when I say a minute, because I want to play a one-minute short that Dominic Inyart did on this.
SPEAKER 01 :
Yeah, that’s great.
SPEAKER 07 :
So you had the four women on the ark. And so it gets to the question of the reason that Canaan was cursed. Are you guys familiar with this?
SPEAKER 01 :
Fred, I think you and I briefly discussed this in our program together, actually on Standing for Truth. So if it’s what I’m thinking, then yes, this is an interesting point.
SPEAKER 07 :
So there could be a blurring of one of those three lines, and it seems like the science partially supports that. So I’m going to play this short real quick, this short from Dominic Inyart from Inyart Theology real quick. It’s about a minute long, and I think it’s a good thing to show you guys.
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Why was Canaan cursed? Genesis chapter nine records the story of Noah’s son Ham. Remember, Noah was the guy with the ark in the global flood. And Moses records, quote, Ham, the father of Canaan, saw the nakedness of his father. As a result of this, Noah cursed Ham’s son, Canaan. Canaan then became the head of Israel’s primary enemies, the Canaanites. Needless to say, this story is bizarre. Why would Noah curse Ham’s son because Ham looked at his nakedness? Well, it’s not immediately clear, so it deserves some research. This phrase has caused much confusion, but when Christians learn its meaning, the entire chapter tells a much clearer yet unfortunate story. You see, quote unquote, a man’s nakedness is an ancient Hebrew figure of speech. Essentially, it’s a polite way of referring to sexual intercourse with a man’s wife.
SPEAKER 02 :
I’ve actually heard that before. And one thing I can add to that is that maybe that was in the Bible why Noah was never again mentioned talking to his wife before. Well, interesting.
SPEAKER 07 :
Yeah. So for those who, just to make sure the audience knows what we’re talking about, If this account, as Dominic Gagnard explained it, is correct, which I thoroughly believe it is. I mean, it’s very well documented in the Bible, this figure of speech. What it means is that Ham slept with his mom and produced Canaan. And so we believe that there actually is a blurring of these three lines that came from the daughters of Eve, so to speak, that there’s actually maybe three or four lines That’s why I wanted to bring this up.
SPEAKER 01 :
And this, our haplogroup right here, some have argued, one could say there’s some in-house debate on how to interpret this phylogenetic tree. If there was a third line, from Noah’s family, then this haplogroup here, R, could also represent one of those women. So you’d have three, possibly four. And so regardless of what view or hypothesis is true, what do we have? We still have confirmation of what the Bible is saying, because you’ve got three, four max some have argued that this represents a post babel dispersal event which is interesting as well but like you said and then also dominic that if there’s a fourth lineage that fourth lineage could be here r now the line separating l m and n when you bring in r is a little longer so we’d have to interpret that but still not as long as your Other lines, which again is representing DNA differences or mutations over time. And so one could interpret the tree with that view. So I think that’s interesting.
SPEAKER 05 :
Yeah. And the bottom line, even though we don’t have all the facts yet, although I do believe genetic science will advance to the point one day to catch up with the Bible and help explain the Bible. And I’m excited to see that happen and appreciate the work that you guys have done already. But before we go on, I just want to thank… Dominic Enyart, Fred, because when you said it was time for an interesting aside, I thought you were going to hit me with the interesting fact of the week. And I thought I had made it at least through the radio broadcast without being embarrassed by the interesting fact of the week. And we should probably move on to another topic right now.
SPEAKER 07 :
You don’t think we should do the interesting fact. I think we should. I think this is the perfect spot for it. So, Doug, are you ready for the interesting fact of the week? And this one’s a little bit of a softball. I think you can get this one, but it could stump you because just being under pressure. And then if it does, we’ll give Donnie and Matt a shot. All right. All right, so here is the interesting fact of the week. Which part of the human body is named after the first man in the Bible?
SPEAKER 05 :
Oh! Let’s see, the first man in the Bible being Adam, created from the dust of the ground. Oh, yeah. The Adam’s apple.
SPEAKER 06 :
Let’s do it again.
SPEAKER 05 :
Hey, there you go, Doug. You got it. Yes. So Donnie and Matt. It makes sense after you hear it. Donnie and Matt, just so you know, whenever we have more than two guests, Bob always gives me a softball because he’s, I’m sorry, did I say Bob?
SPEAKER 04 :
Yeah.
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Anyway, Fred always gives me a softball because he’s merciful and he tries to be generous, especially in larger groups of people. He’s a merciful host.
SPEAKER 01 :
That’s right. Okay, so what does the Bible demand? Earlier we read that the Bible is clear. God creates two people, Adam, Eve, Adam the first man, Eve the mother of all living. They’re unrelated to any other form of life. That includes chimpanzees, our so-called closest cousin on the evolutionary phylogenetic tree of life, and banana plants. Well, the Bible demanded a single woman that every human being has descended from. The evolutionary model did not predict this. If evolution were true, we did not have to originate from a single man and a single woman. As a matter of fact, if we went into detail on the out of Africa theory, we would have every reason to believe there should have been multiple mitochondrial DNA lineages, multiple Y chromosome lineages. But again, take every single male Y chromosome, that’s the paternally inherited DNA compartment, passed down on the father’s side. I have my father’s Y chromosome. And there’s very little variation. Every single male Y chromosome is nearly identical in its genetic makeup, can be traced back to a single man. Same thing with the mitochondrial DNA. They’re both very different from chimpanzee. For example, if you consider overall size differences, gene content, architecture the chimpanzee and human Y chromosomes are less than 30% the same they’re nothing alike but the Bible demanded a single woman a single man and we’ve discovered this single woman and single man Eve and specifically when it comes to the Y chromosome Y chromosome Noah now Matt I want you to take it from here mutation rates In the scientific literature, the conventional literature, this is the evolutionary, this is their Bible in many ways, they admit that the observed mutation rate is much faster than the so-called phylogenetic rate that evolutionists look to. As you can see here from this paper, tenfold. observed mutation rate tenfold higher than phylogenetically derived rates this is the parsons paper matt what is the significance of this specific paper but also other papers related to the mutation rate in mitochondrial dna what does that tell us about the origin of of eve and mankind in general
SPEAKER 02 :
This was one of the largest studies that was ever done at its time, the first one, because Parsons worked for the FBI, and he gathered 10 of the best geneticists from around the world and got them together and said, let’s run a mutation rate and a substitution rate. Substitution rate is just a worldwide population version. And let’s determine when the first woman… converge from this? How long ago did she actually live, the most recent common ancestor of all women alive today? And as you can see from this, the mutation rate he got was about 20 times higher than expected, really, really fast, and put the Eve living about 6,500 years ago. And the critics didn’t like this. They didn’t believe it. And one of his biggest critics named Holland said… I’ll run that test again with you. And so the following year, in 1998, he joined the team. They ran the numbers again from a different bunch of blood, all from the FBI database, usually from people that died in war. And they gathered up all the blood, and sure enough, the mutation rate was even faster than the first one. They said, okay, well, you know, something will explain this later in the future probably. don’t know what that is but we’ll eventually get a slower rate that’ll match evolution years went by it’s and in 2022 they ran another pedigree study this is the most recent one in humans got the same rate we will look at uh what nathaniel jensen found because what he was talking about was the eve’s consensus sequence which is mitochondrial that takes us back to the first woman but he was also talking about the y chromosome So when Nathaniel Jensen at Answers in Genesis came along and he started reading through the published peer-reviewed papers, and the first ones that were done on pedigree mutation rates, they scanned the Y chromosome and didn’t see very many mutations. So they said, see, it’s really slow. It points back to about 300,000 years ago. And so what happens is two other studies came out. You can see them right here. They were pedigree rate studies as well. But they did something different. They scanned the Y chromosome automatically. multiple times called high-sequence data scanning. And what they noticed is they missed hundreds of mutations. And by missing those hundreds of mutations, they actually found that there was actually three mutations per person per generation. That’s extremely fast. But they hid this. They hid it in the supplemental data. That’s why if you find it right here, it says that the difference was about tenfold faster. That’s exactly what Parsons discovered, isn’t it? Exactly the same. So they hid this in the supplemental form and they said, this prompted us to explore additional filters, meaning we didn’t like this at all. This does not align with evolution. What did it align with? Well, the observed rate, three mutations on average, the average person has 440 mutation differences. So that takes us back only 146 generations before we land around Noah. So depending on the generation time you want to give him, that 30 years takes us back 4,380 years. 35 years takes us back 5,100. That’s not evolutionary timeline. That’s not 300,000 years. So then Nathaniel Jensen said, I have a better idea. Let’s compare this to the Native American history going over from the red record and see if it can align with something. so what he noticed is that native americans do how they they track time by something called the sachins sachins are how long a native american chief lives so it’s not a constant number it can be 15 years and then he dies of a heart attack or it could be 50 years because he lived his entire age so he tracked how many sachins it was to that and it matched his mutation rate And here’s another thing that’s cool. Not only did he confirm it with history, he also said, well, how many mutations until we noticed that the haplogroups form and they branch out in the Y chromosome? And sure enough, taking it three mutations per generation, you land on Peleg. That’s exactly where the dispersion happened in the Tower of Babel. So how cool. And where? It’s in the Middle East. Wait a minute. I thought people originated in Africa. How come all the haplogroups formed in the Middle East, in the biblical area? That makes no sense, right? Think about it. People are living 150,000 years in Africa. And a haplogroup just means when you’re living in a small group, a mutation will arise and it’ll pass around till everybody in that tribe or population has it. That’s a new haplogroup. So Africa, full of people, full of tribes for hundreds of thousands of years, and all of a sudden the haplogroups only waited to form until they left Africa? Yeah, I don’t think so. That’s nonsense. But don’t worry, we have even more information because another study said that it looks like science has confirmed that the human genome began to rapidly diverge not more than 5,000 years ago. So wait, if we’re living in Africa and we’re diverging as people, it should go back hundreds of thousands. We don’t see that. Instead, when we look at Africa, we only find a few haplogroups, not very many at all. But what do we do find when we look? We found the structures of Noah’s 16 grandchildren. How interesting is that? Literal places with literal people. And if we have time, I can tell you a story about William H. Shea.
SPEAKER 07 :
Okay, so wait a minute here. Okay, so Matt, you said that everybody goes back, you look at these genealogies, and everything traces back to the first pirate, right? Peg Leg.
SPEAKER 06 :
Oh, okay.
SPEAKER 07 :
Oh, wait, no, you said pad leg. Okay, my bad. So, okay, so I digress. So who’s this guy you wanted to talk about, Matt?
SPEAKER 02 :
This was an interesting person that I found when I was looking for physical evidence of biblical patriarchs. This man in the middle is named William H. Shea, and he got his PhD in Loma Linda, California, and he was an explorer and loved to travel. And what he did is he thought to himself, let’s go to the Middle East. Why not? This is some of the first history arose in the Fertile Crescent. So what he did is he traveled up to Turkey and went to Mount Ararat. And while he was there, he was documenting his trip and said, I have a guide to take me around. Show me some of this historical stuff. So after Mount Ararat, he looked around. He saw some interesting things, but nothing that really stood out. So what he did is he went over and said, the tour guide said, I think you’re going to like Mount Kerry. It’s a very interesting place and it’s not too far away, just a little bit kind of north from here. So they took him up and he took him to what’s called Mount Ararat. And Mount Arigrats looks like this on the satellite GPS, by the way. This is Google Earth. And so when they got there, they got out and they looked at the beautiful terrain and they said, let’s scout and go up the mountain. And he said, all right. So they did a little tour up to the top of the mountain. And when they came back down, he said, look at this. Look on the top of this mountain over here. I think there’s something up there. I kind of see it. And if you zoom in just a little bit, you can see there is something up there. He said, can we go back and look at that? And they said, sure, but we have to travel around. We can hike around it. He said, can’t we just do the perimeter of the lake? It’ll be a little bit faster. They completely agreed. And on his travel walking around, he noticed on the stones that there was an interesting writing. And because this was a specialty, he said, that’s proto-Semitic. This is the first writing system of mankind. What’s that doing here? It shouldn’t be here at all. And he noticed a couple of the letters and they kept moving. And he said, this is interesting. This kind of is showing me that there’s like a map. It’s guiding us somewhere. So what he did is they walked along the beach a little bit further, and he came up on a giant rock. It looked like this. And in it, he noticed there were some images. So he traced it, and he drew this. And he noticed it has a dove on one side, a raven on another, with an arc right here with people on it. There’s faces, and there’s a group of people down here that says Japheth, Shem, and Ham. And so highlighted rock, it’s a little bit more like this. You can thank AI for doing that for me. And it was amazing. He found this rock that seemed to portray the exact story of what was going on with the Ark. And after he read it, he said the Ark landed here. Very interesting. So now he’s on to something and they’re not even to their destination yet. So they keep walking and he goes up and the top of the mountain is actually tombs and there’s tombs everywhere. But here’s the view looking down at the parking lot. It’s got a cross on it now and there’s a bunch of piled up rocks. That’s a gravesite. And this fascinated him to no end. And one thing that he really couldn’t believe is when they started to look at specific rocks, he came across a stone that had a face of a man on it and a hole in it. And when you look through the hole, it points at the mountain on the other side of the lake. And written on it, it says Noah and tomb. And he was like, I can’t believe this is amazing. This is unbelievable. So the tour guide said, we actually have one more stop to do. We can come back to this if you like. So they got in their vehicle and they journeyed. He said, I want to show you the Armenian Stonehenge. So they traveled and they got to the Armenian Stonehenge. They got out and sure enough, he saw the same writing yet again. This is that proto-Syndatic inscriptions that they find in certain places of the world that’s really old. The origin of writing, actually. So they got out and he noticed more writing. And he said, wow, this has Shem and his wife’s name on it, including others. There were other people that weren’t mentioned in scripture, but he noticed that their names were also inscribed on these rocks. And something very fascinating, one of the stones has Shem’s and his wife’s name on it, and right in the middle is a tomb. And on the other side over here, a little off the screen, is another tomb. He literally found Shem’s grave and his wife’s. And I found it interesting that the other one he didn’t get a chance to go back to, he would have actually probably been able to identify Noah’s tomb. Now, this fascinated me. And I looked online and I found out his information. He lives over here in Palm Desert, California by me. And I wanted to go see him. So I found this and I emailed. And unfortunately, his wife responded to me and said he died in 2000. So all of his research and everything she couldn’t access because she’s 87 years old and couldn’t do it. So the best I could get were the stories that I found online, and I found it fascinating that we have physical evidence leading us to these tombs and graves and never really been investigated much because this guy found it and posted it online, but it’s in a different language. So I just really like that story, and I can’t believe I can’t find my picture.
SPEAKER 05 :
Well, it’s interesting and fascinating stuff, and what it points to, whether or not it’s all genuine, maybe we don’t know, but what it does point to is a knowledge of the story, going back very far with people in that land, and the fact, it just highlights the fact that every civilization on the planet has some sort of flood story, which also tells us that All those flood stories are derived from something that actually happened, and that’s what the Bible tells us. And so I think that’s what I’m convinced, Adam and Eve, yeah, real. Absolutely. And I appreciate the fact that there are people working in genetics to try to catch up. with Genesis and Matthew and 2 Corinthians. I love it. Eventually they will catch up and you guys will be there and hopefully us too to document as much of it as we can. But now I want to talk about, and we might not have time today, but we’ll have you guys back to talk about endogenous retroviruses. I want to hear more about that because with that many syllables, there’s got to be a lot of people in the audience who absolutely want to know what is that all about.
SPEAKER 04 :
Absolutely.
SPEAKER 01 :
Yeah, that’s a great question, Doug. I will put up some visuals showing exactly why this argument from, and you said it, you nailed it, endogenous retroviruses. If you were to search on YouTube or Google, what’s the best evidence for evolution? What typically comes up is endogenous retroviruses. Now, what endogenous retroviruses are claimed to be are shared viral-like sequences in the biological world. So they’ll say, well, humans and chimpanzees share these viral-like sequences that they call ERVs, and therefore they must have inherited those. from a common ancestor. So they’ll say humans and chimps have a common ancestor going back about 6 million years ago. And there must have been ancient viral infections that were passed on to both lineages. And I like to ask the question, are these sequences, this supposed viral DNA, are they really the ancient remnants of past viral infection, or are they created units of DNA function? Now, I wrote a book called The Endogenous Retrovirus Handbook, examining that question and examining this argument in detail. In my book and presentations, I’ve also formally debated the topic many times with proponents of evolution. And I’ve documented dozens and dozens of papers directly in the secular literature showing the amazing functionality of these endogenous retroviruses. They function, and here’s just a few, and then I want to go over some of my favorite papers on the issue. And so ERVs are playing an antiviral role in the genome.
SPEAKER 07 :
Hey, we’re running out of time in this broadcast, so go to our website to catch the rest of this program, realscienceradio.com.
SPEAKER 06 :
Designing DNA Scholars can’t explain it all away Get ready to be awed By the handiwork of God Tune into Real Science Radio Turn up the Real Science Radio Keeping it real That’s what I’m talking about
