On this powerful episode of Dr. James Dobson’s Family Talk, author and apologist Natasha Crain joins Roger Marsh to continue a vital conversation about standing firm as Christians in a hostile public square. Natasha’s latest book, When Culture Hates You, dives into the cultural pressure to conform—and what parents can do to help their children develop a confident, biblically grounded worldview.
Together, Natasha and Roger tackle the slippery label of “Christian nationalism” and offer a clear, principled way for believers to engage in politics without apology. They explore why Christian values are increasingly vilified and how families can respond with
Welcome everyone to Family Talk. It’s a ministry of the James Dobson Family Institute supported by listeners just like you. I’m Dr. James Dobson and I’m thrilled that you’ve joined us. Welcome to Family Talk, the broadcast ministry of the Dr. James Dobson Family Institute. I’m Roger Marsh. You know, Christian values are under attack in today’s culture. Kids come home from school questioning what they’ve learned about faith and family. Parents face pushback at work for expressing biblical beliefs. And families everywhere are wondering how to navigate this hostile landscape. Well, on today’s edition of Dr. James Dobson’s Family Talk, we’re continuing our conversation with author Natasha Crane. Her most recent book is called When Culture Hates You, Persevering for the Common Good as Christians in a Hostile Public Square. Now, Natasha Crane is kind of an accidental apologist, if you will. She’s a national speaker, podcaster and mom of three teenagers. but she has an MBA from UCLA and started out in the business world before earning a certificate in Christian apologetics from Biola University after a season of homeschooling her kids. Now, last time on Family Talk, Natasha shared how Christians are seen not just as wrong, but as evil and even toxic for holding the beliefs that we do. Natasha challenged us to step up off the sidelines and lovingly engage with biblical truth on tough issues. On today’s edition of Dr. James Dobson Family Talk, we will tackle accusations of quote unquote Christian nationalism and also get some practical advice for raising kids in this challenging environment. Natasha Crane, welcome back to Dr. James Dobson’s Family Talk.
SPEAKER 02 :
Thank you so much.
SPEAKER 01 :
You have a quote in the book where you are talking about power and there’s a lot of push and shove about so-called Christian nationalism. If a Christian runs for city council, he’s a Christian nationalist. If a Christian runs for school board, she’s a Christian nationalist. Because obviously, if they’ve supported Donald Trump, they’re Christian nationalists. And the term gets overused. But I love this quote where you wrote, it’s the consistent witness of scripture that God cares about the just and righteous functioning of societies. The godly application of power by the rulers God has sovereignly put in place. Help us understand how we can address that person who says, oh, well, you voted a certain way or you go to this church or you like this pastor. You read this book. You read that Natasha Crane book. You must be a Christian nationalist. How do we respond to that with grace and truth?
SPEAKER 02 :
Well, the first thing that you should say or ask whenever somebody brings up something about Christian nationalism is, you know, what do you mean by Christian nationalism? That’s the most important thing that you can ask because there’s really no settled definition of it. I mean, you really can’t even look back at history and say, well, okay, at this point of time, this is the definition we’re going forward with because it’s just been used in so many different ways. And so what I did in the book is I surveyed hundreds of pieces of content from the mainstream media to say, what exactly are they calling Christian nationalism?
SPEAKER 01 :
There are over 160 citations in this book, by the way. I mean, this is not anecdotal. And Sasha has thoroughly researched this. And so if you’re looking for, wait, where did she get that from? You guys are just making this up. Trust me, I counted them. There’s a lot of citations in this book. Well, I didn’t even know that. So thank you for counting them. Sure.
SPEAKER 02 :
But so when you look at it, you can look at research studies, which I did talk about in my chapter on Christian nationalism. So anyone who’s interested in the research that they’ve done can go to that. But anecdotally and on a broader scale, when the mainstream media is talking about Christian nationalism and you actually look at the examples that they give in their articles or in their videos that they’re labeling Christian nationalism, almost always what it is is that there are Christians who are advocating for certain values according to unpopular, quote unquote, conservative positions. Right. I mean, that’s what it comes down to. It means usually that you are advocating for a pro-life view and pro-life policies based on biblical values. It means that you are working against some of these laws that would allow for the mutilation of children according to gender ideology. It’s basically… hey, you’re a Christian, you’re bringing your quote unquote religious perspective to bear in the public square. And so that’s anti-democratic in some way, or it’s theocratic and it’s dangerous. These are the words, this is the rhetorical flourishing that you hear. But in reality- In a constitutional republic, everyone has the right to bring their views to bear in the public square. There’s nothing different about a Christian saying, I’m going to advocate for this policy position because of my religious background. There’s nothing different than somebody else who comes along and says, well, I’m going to advocate it according to this position. As I say in the book, we don’t actually go around and find out everyone’s motivations for how they advocate for things because we would have to psychologically profile people all day long, right? It doesn’t matter why you got to a certain view or how you got to a certain view. The point is, is that we all have the right to bring our views to the public square. And it’s so ironic that they’ll call this Christian nationalism if it happens to come from a Christian perspective because you’re not being anti-democratic when you’re using the process exactly as it’s intended to be used. Right. To be anti-democratic, as they’re claiming, would be to work around our current form of government somehow. No one’s doing that, right? When I say that I think that there should be policies in place, laws in place that prevent anyone from killing a pre-born baby, when I do that, that is just advocating within our current governing structure. It’s not anti-democratic. It is not theocratic. That’s the other big word that gets thrown around. A theocracy is where you formally recognize a deity as a country’s official deity.
SPEAKER 01 :
Like any country in the Middle East. Right, exactly.
SPEAKER 02 :
Yes, we’re not advocating for that. So it’s really just a pejorative. And so that’s why when you say, well, how do you address it if somebody says that? I say, well, ask them, what do you mean by Christian nationalism? And if they say, well, you want your Christian values to be imposed on everyone else. Well, the answer to that is, well, that’s just the nature of public policy, that everyone is advocating for a policy that’s going to impose one group’s views on someone else. That’s just how things work in our country. Why do you think Christians should be less able to advocate for our views than anyone else?
SPEAKER 01 :
I was going to say, which views do you find offensive? Let’s talk about them, you know, as opposed to just that sweeping generalization that says, well, MAGA, so you’re therefore you’re bad. It’s like, well, who cares who I voted for? And I love the fact that you keep referring to the United States as a constitutional republic because we are. You know, and there’s a democratic process in the Constitutional Republic, but a lot of people just don’t get that. And when you bring that to their attention, it’s like, hey, you almost feel like you’re the medical professional who’s pointing out to somebody they might be a few pounds overweight and they don’t want to hear it. So therefore, you’re filled with hate speech and evil rhetoric instead of saying, well, no, I’m just suggesting if you do a caloric deficit, you might actually lose a few pounds and that’ll prolong your life. I mean, that’s right. That’s all we’re looking for. Let’s put some shoes on this in terms of, because this all started for you, this book, this ministry, everything with your blogging about your kids. And I think there are a lot of parents who are saying, yeah, I’m really into this and I’m totally supporting this. I’m finding this. But then when it comes to how do you impart this wisdom to your children? I know you’ve written extensively about this. I’m not so good at that, you know, Natasha. So where can I start? I mean, the premise here, I don’t know there’s going to be a children’s version of When Culture Hates You. Probably not. That might be a little traumatic for the little ones, but the title itself. But the premise, though, is something that, yeah, kids are going to find that, oh, you go to church, well, this, that, and the other thing. Or, you know, my mom’s a, I have two dads or, you know, whatever, that type of thing. How do we begin for our children, for our grandchildren, addressing the fact that there is a culture war? that Christians are deemed the enemy, and we have the weaponry, if you will, to at least stand up against the It’s Ephesians 6. You know, we do have the weapons of warfare. We just have to apply them properly.
SPEAKER 02 :
Well, I think one of the most important things that parents and grandparents can convey today is a sense that if you are going to actually adhere to what’s in the Bible, that this is what is true for you. This is your whole worldview. If that’s going to be true for you, you are in a worldview minority. That’s actually what my last book, Faithfully Different, was about. And I know you’ve talked about the statistics too, but this gap between, hey, 65% of people in America are going to say, I’m a Christian, but only about 4% have a biblical worldview. So there’s a huge There’s a huge gap between everything you’re going to hear that is labeled Christian and what actually lines up with the Bible. I think for kids to understand that is hugely important. I think it’s one of the most important starting points that you can have, because at that point, they’re gonna recognize that they’re gonna hear a lot of stuff that’s under the Christian label, whether it’s Christian music, or it’s a Christian TV show, or it’s a Christian book, Christian bookstore. They’re gonna see the word Christian everywhere. But how much does that actually reflect the Bible? So being able to talk to kids about, hey, here’s the deal. If you want to actually know what’s true, you can’t just look to whatever any given Christian is saying. And that includes me as an author, it includes your pastor. Many pastors do not have a biblical worldview. And as a parent, I would tell my kids the same thing. I said, don’t just believe what I’m saying right now. I wanna show you where in the Bible you would find this. point your kids back to the Bible always. Now, doing that alone is not gonna carry them all the way because eventually they’re gonna say, well, why do I trust the Bible? And that’s where apologetics related to the reliability of scripture should come in and giving them good reason to believe the Bible’s true. And I think you have to be very upfront with your kids to say, look, there are a lot of extraordinary things that we believe as Christians, right? We believe that there was this man who came back to life 2000 years ago, who was actually God and that, you know, and he could live inside of us today through the Holy Spirit. Like, I mean, all this sounds extraordinary, right? And we lose sight of that, especially if we’ve always been a Christian. So I challenge my kids and say, look, this is extraordinary stuff. If you’re going to see all of reality through the lens of what the Bible teaches, you better be really sure that the Bible is actually God’s word. You need to learn why the gospels, for example, are reliable. You need to understand why we would look at this entire Bible and say, yes, this is God’s word. And I’m going to spend my whole life committed to God. I’m going to trust in Jesus, my Lord and Savior. Kids need to know why. You have to know why. It can’t just be, well, I had an experience once at church camp where, wow, the VBS crafts were really great. And so, you know, I had this experience. It’s got to be more than that. If they’re going to be able to stand firm in a culture that’s increasingly hostile, and if they’re going to be a light in that culture, they’re going to have to understand the why.
SPEAKER 01 :
What’s interesting about what Natasha Crane is writing about in the book, When Culture Hates You, and what we’re talking about today here on Dr. James Dobson’s Family Talk, is the fact that everything seems to be so cause and effect in the culture. You know, I have a remote and I can click here and I can go search here and I can get all the answers I want. And what you’re talking about takes time. It takes intentionality. And I wonder what it must be like for the parents. We’ve seen over the past couple of years, massive amounts of college campus uprisings that aren’t, you know, sit-ins in the office, but rather, I mean, sometimes they’re anti-Semitic, but sometimes it’s thousands of students being baptized. And I have to poke fun at Dr. Dobson every now and again saying, you know, they even had a rally at the Ohio State, you know, because he’s a big USC fan. I said, if Jesus can find his way to Ohio State, you know, to these football players, then you know something’s really up. But talk about how the encouragement that you would have to parents, I’m sure, is, look, it’s going to take time. And we’re so used to the quick fix now when it comes to parenting that what we’re talking about here is an investment and you’re literally planting seeds and waiting for them to grow.
SPEAKER 02 :
That’s right. It’s about obedience, right? I have three teenagers, so I completely understand.
SPEAKER 01 :
You look remarkably calm for being the mom of three teenagers.
SPEAKER 02 :
Well, that’s because I’m not in town with my teenagers right now.
SPEAKER 01 :
Well said.
SPEAKER 02 :
But you have to be so patient because like you’re saying, it is a process over time and it’s so hard to be patient in the moment because when you’re with your kids and every little thing you’re analyzing, right? You’re thinking like, are they starting to go off on the wrong track on this? Or, oh, they just said something the other day that makes me wonder, like, where really are they with their heart? We were always, always analyzing these things. And One of the things that I think is most important to remember as a parent, and I’m preaching it to myself, not to everyone else, just as much to myself, is that we cannot parent with a purchase mentality where we are somehow buying their faith with the currency of our efforts. It is not something to be purchased. It is an investment that we make and we put in all that we’ve got and we leave it to God to take that and make it grow all for his glory. And that takes time.
SPEAKER 01 :
Boy, that is powerful. What a powerful word picture when you think about the things that we buy versus the things that we invest in. And we’re here at the National Religious Broadcasters Convention. They were even talking about some of the executive meeting about some of the assets that were taken out of purchase mode and put into investment mode and how it’s actually benefited the organization instead of saying, wow, we don’t have access to that money now. It’s, whoa, look at the return. Look at the dividend. And the Bible’s full of stories like that, you know, about buying the field that has the buried treasure and, you know, finding the pearl because that wasn’t the immediate prize, but that’s something that you had to dig. And that was the return on the investment. So that’s, that’s encouraging. Another area, and I don’t want to gloss over this quickly, but I think it’s worth talking about too, is when we hear about CRT and the, The whole racial challenges that our culture has gone through, even say the past five, 10 years where it’s been in the forefront. I don’t think it’s anything necessarily new. It’s just been televised on more platforms, you know, quite frankly. Talk about what we as parents can do when our kids are saying, yeah, but your Christianity is anti-immigration or you’re a racist, you know, for being a Christian. When we look at the Old Testament and say, hey, God’s perfectly fine with different tribes and different nations. And matter of fact, that’s the Great Commission. But how can we start breaking that down to bring it back to where we’re not just trying to say, no, you’re wrong because the Bible says so, but really put some meat on those bones?
SPEAKER 02 :
Well, I think a lot of this comes back to really defining terms and giving kids good principles to work with, because, yes, we need to address all of the current issues and explain, OK, here’s what critical race theory teaches. And, you know, and here’s what queer theory teaches. And here’s what all these big theories teach.
SPEAKER 01 :
They’re all part of the flag. I just saw the new flag the other day. I had no idea that the pride flag now has a brown stripe and a black stripe. And it’s like everybody’s piling on against the Bible. And it’s like, wow, OK, that’s really crazy. But that’s where a lot of young people are getting their values. They see that in the classroom at school. And next thing you know, these are the values, mom, and you’re wrong. You have to prove me right. So how do you respond? Right.
SPEAKER 02 :
So yes, so we definitely have to pick off a lot of these individual issues so kids understand how to handle them. But I also think that it’s really important to get back to the basics of, and the basic issue that underlies all this is justice. What is justice? What is justice from a biblical perspective? Because when kids understand that, then they’re gonna be able to apply that foundational principle to all these different justice areas that come up. And they’re gonna be many more different ones in the future also. So we have to be careful not to only address the issue of the day, but get down to what is the root, which I do in one of the chapters in this book in talking about justice. So justice, by definition, is making right that which is wrong. Okay, so if we start with that, we should be able to see that the world is going to have a very different definition of justice from Christians, because the concept of justice itself depends on what standard you use in the first place for defining what is right and wrong. So if you’re making wrong things right according to some kind of standard and you’re using any standard other than God’s standards, you’re going to get justice wrong in a lot of cases. Now, sometimes those things will align. So, for example, if we’re talking about serving the homeless or serving in a soup kitchen, the culture is going to be OK with that. They’re going to say, you know, that’s a matter of justice we can all agree on. Right. But there are gonna be a lot of times when because you use the wrong standard, you’re going to get to the wrong ideas about justice. So even what I just described in the last 30 seconds is a principle that if you explain that to your kids conceptually, they’re going to understand, okay, so I may have to be careful about justice and how I define it because justice inherently depends on a standard. So, hey, culture, what are you using as your standard? And then that’s when you can get into talking about, you know, all the critical theory stuff and how they use the social binary of oppressor and oppressed according to power and society. I mean, that’s a whole other discussion, right? And I talk about that in the book. But that’s, I think, the best way that as parents that we can handle these topics because we’re not going to be around for every single thing that comes up in culture to help our kids. Eventually, you want to give them the principles to think broadly about these things so that they can apply them to all the individual cases that they see later. Right.
SPEAKER 01 :
The other night I was zombie scrolling, going to bed, couldn’t get to sleep, got the phone out. My wife calls up my third hand. I’m always reading. And I’ve stumbled onto a couple of different pages of these young people who were liberal, who used to be, I guess they would be ex-evangelicals. And they were talking about the current culture. And they had these videos that were carefully manicured and curated. They were two or three minutes long. It was, well, what about this? And what about this? What about this? What about this? And give me a like and a share. And I’d looked 400,000 subscribers, 500,000. And I thought to myself, this is not easy for parents. And it’s certainly not easy for grandparents either. When the young kids are looking at this, it goes by so quickly and it all sounds like it makes sense. But then to use a $64,000 word where we need to be better at exegeting what’s happening in the culture, we exegete. And we let the whole idea, instead of saying, this is what the word says about this, this is what I want it to say. And there’s a whole group of people with lots of initials after their last names. You know, George Barter said one time, he calls them like they’re parchment educated, you know, where they’ve got the degree, they got the diploma, but they really don’t know what they’re talking about. This is the culture that we’re parenting. And so it’s not easy. I mean, you could have called this when the culture hates you and parenting isn’t for cowards all at the same time, because it’s it’s really not. I mean, for the faint of heart, but.
SPEAKER 02 :
But that’s actually a helpful tool that you can use in parenting is that you can find, and I’ve done this a lot myself, that you can find examples like that. Show a TikTok video or show something from YouTube or social media, whatever. I’m always pulling down these examples as I see them on my own social media that I can then use with my kids and say, hey, look at this. What is the worldview behind this and how can we discuss it? So those examples are good and it shows that you’re not afraid of what the culture is saying. It shows them like, hey, I’m going to show you this stuff because this is interesting. And then you can have conversations about it.
SPEAKER 01 :
Natasha Crane, do you get the sense that one of the biggest obstacles for parents helping kids break down these tough issues is parents who don’t want to be wrong or don’t really know? They don’t feel like they know. Remember when we were growing up. There are a lot of parents who didn’t have the talk with their kids because they’re like, well, I didn’t do it right when I was younger. So I wouldn’t want them asking me questions about my past. So I’m just not going to talk to them about it. And then they turn to pornography and then, you know, or whatever it is. You get that sense that we’re at that season right now where parents are saying, I’m willing to put that aside and say, if I don’t have the answer, I’ll say, I don’t know. And that’s okay. I mean…
SPEAKER 02 :
I think more and more parents are starting to understand they’re going to have to do something for their kids. You know, several years ago, when I first started speaking about apologetics to parent audiences, I would spend a good portion of my talks trying to make them care, trying to, you know, my background’s in marketing. And so it was kind of a natural thing. Like, OK, first, let me tell you why you need to care about this apologetic stuff. And, you know, you can see the looks on the faces of, well… I’m not really sure that they’re caring out there. But I have seen that change in the last, I would say, three or four years, especially, really, especially since 2020. It’s become very, very clear to people that they’re going to have to care. And so I do think that more and more parents today are starting to see there are a lot of movements they don’t necessarily understand. There’s a lot. that is compelling to kids, that kids are being pulled in by, sucked in by, I would say. And they’re starting to understand they have to do something. They have to step up. So whether or not we feel comfortable with it, that should not dictate whether or not we’re called to do it. You know, God doesn’t say, well, if you feel comfortable enough to explain the culture to your kids, please do that. You know, that’s not how this works. It’s, you know, we should be preparing our kids for everything that they’re encountering, that investment and pouring into them saying, these are the challenges that you’re going to encounter today. And I’m going to prepare you to meet those challenges.
SPEAKER 01 :
Always be prepared to give an explanation for the reason for the hope with gentleness and respect. You know, I think that’s maybe if there’s a big, okay, everybody needs to take an apology pill, you know, for this one. It’s how often did we as Christians just overreact? You know, what do you mean you’re gay? It felt like filled with anger instead of saying, wow, do you think that’s the best way to go? Let’s see what God’s word says about this. And then you have a lot more level headed approach. It seems like to that, not to say that the people who blew up before, because I’ve been in a preaching to the choir as far as that goes. But it’s so important. Natasha, we have a couple of moments left in our time together. What’s the driving force behind the book When Culture Hates You? I mean, the title is provocative enough, but you have done such a yeoman’s job of researching and giving us outlines. And, you know, here’s three things you should be looking for and four ways to apply it. It’s a very, very practical book. What’s the heartbeat of this book for you?
SPEAKER 02 :
I think that my hope is that Christians would read this and realize that no matter what kind of hostility that we have in culture, we still are called to be light in the culture and that it matters. I think sometimes, you know, we hear salt and light and it becomes almost like a catchphrase in the church, right? It’s like, let’s be salt and light. But what does that really mean? What does that look like? I think it’s something that can become a mantra almost for us without us thinking about why does this matter? There are real lives that hang in the balance of us advocating for righteousness in society. There are babies who haven’t been born. There are teenagers who have been pulled into a destructive and harmful gender ideology. There are just so many issues today that if we speak God’s truth in it, that it’s actually going to save people’s lives. either their entire existence or the quality of their lives going forward. And so I just hope that people will read this and understand that what we do matters and that we’re called to it. It’s not just sort of this ambiguous, oh, let’s be salt and light somehow. But this is what it would look like if you’re going to get out there and you’re going to advocate for righteousness. This is how it will look. And I want to put legs on that.
SPEAKER 01 :
Well, Natasha Crane, I highly recommend this book. And I know that a lot of parents will be blessed by having heard our conversation and then also putting these principles into action. So thank you for meeting us where we are and shaking us up so that we don’t stay on the bench because there’s no bench in heaven. We all know that everybody has to get in the game. Again, the book is called Would Culture Hate You? Persevering for the Common Good as Christians in a Hostile Public Square by Natasha Crane. Natasha, thank you for being with us today here on Dr. James Dobson’s Family Talk.
SPEAKER 02 :
Thank you so much for having me.
SPEAKER 01 :
Natasha Crane’s insights challenge us to stay faithful to the truth while showing Christ’s love to a hostile world. And you’ve been listening to a special edition of Dr. James Dobson’s Family Talk featuring a conversation with author Natasha Crane about her book, When Culture Hates You, Persevering for the Common Good as Christians in a Hostile Public Square. Now, if you missed any portion of today’s program, Or you’d like to hear part one, you’ll hear parts one and two when you go to drjamesdobson.org forward slash family talk. And while you’re there, be sure you also click the link to find out how easy it is to order a copy of Natasha Crane’s book, When Culture Hates You, Persevering for the Common Good as Christians in the Hostile Public Square. Again, you’ll find all that information and more at drjamesdobson.org forward slash family talk. Now, before we leave the air for today, I want to remind you about a brand new email mini series that you’ll want to sign up for. Our conflict in marriage email series addresses four crucial questions every couple faces. Why do fights arise even when neither of you wants to argue? How can you tell if your conflicts are normal or signs of deeper issues? What does it mean to fight the quote unquote right way in a marriage? And how can you help your spouse handle conflict more thoughtfully? You’ll learn the answers to these questions and more when you sign up for the Conflict in Marriage email series. And you can do so today. It’s absolutely free when you go to drjamesdobson.org. That’s drjamesdobson.org. Strong marriages are the foundation of strong families, and strong families are the foundation of a healthy society. That’s why the Dr. James Dobson Family Institute is committed to equipping parents and families with biblical wisdom for today’s challenges. Through our daily broadcasts and other resources like the free email series you just heard about, we’re working to promote the timeless principles that make families thrive. When you partner with us, you’re investing in the next generation’s ability to live out their faith with confidence and compassion. And your support helps us continue providing trusted biblical guidance to families facing a hostile world. Now, you can make a secure donation online at drjamesdobson.org. That’s drjamesdobson.org. You can also make a secure donation over the phone when you call 877-732-6825. That’s 877-732-6825. Or if you prefer, we still accept snail mail. We’d love to get your cards, letters, and postcards. As a matter of fact, Dr. Dobson loves to review them as they come into our office here at the JDFI. Our ministry mailing address for sending that donation is Dr. James Dobson’s Family Talk, P.O. Box 39000, Colorado Springs, Colorado, the zip code 80949. Once again, our ministry mailing address is Dr. James Dobson’s Family Talk, or you can just address it J-D-F-I for short, P.O. Box 39000, Colorado Springs, Colorado, the zip code 80949. Well, I’m Roger Marsh, and on behalf of Dr. James Dobson and all of us here at the JDFI, thanks so much for listening today. Be sure to join us again next time right here for another edition of Dr. James Dobson’s Family Talk, the voice you trust for the family you love. This has been a presentation of the Dr. James Dobson Family Institute.
On this powerful episode of Dr. James Dobson’s Family Talk, author and apologist Natasha Crain joins Roger Marsh to continue a vital conversation about standing firm as Christians in a hostile public square. Natasha’s latest book, When Culture Hates You, dives into the cultural pressure to conform—and what parents can do to help their children develop a confident, biblically grounded worldview.
Together, Natasha and Roger tackle the slippery label of “Christian nationalism” and offer a clear, principled way for believers to engage in politics without apology. They explore why Christian values are increasingly vilified and how families can respond with
