In today’s discussion, we explore profound topics such as the difference between divine commands and human expectations within Christianity. Steve Gregg provides insights into fasting, spiritual gifts, and the contentious issue of speaking in tongues within worship settings. This episode is particularly touching as it also addresses how to find faith and purpose in the face of terminal illness, offering comfort and guidance to those navigating life’s most challenging moments.
SPEAKER 1 :
Thank you.
SPEAKER 06 :
Good afternoon and welcome to the Narrow Path radio broadcast. My name is Steve Gregg and we’re live for an hour each weekday afternoon. And I have good news for those of you who have been writing me, dozens of you writing me to tell me that our website has been not functioning properly. Of course, we’ve known that for days. It’s been quite a pain to have to write to all these people who have been writing to me about it. And nothing I could do. But the thing is, it’s been fixed. At least I have been informed. by our webmaster that the issues are over, you can start using the website thenarrowpath.com. Again, I think in a normal manner. Now, I don’t know if you have to refresh your browser or anything like that to get rid of the other issues, but that shouldn’t be a problem if you have to do that. Just know that the problems of the website are no longer, and I know that was a big issue, big enough that I was announcing them on the air this week. Now I can announce that they are I mean, that’s what I’m told. Anyway, I hope that’s true. All right, so if you’re not familiar with the program, this is a call-in program. You can call in with questions you have about the Bible or the Christian faith. We discuss them on the air. If you don’t like or don’t agree with something the host says, you’re always welcome to call in and balance comment. I’d be glad to hear from you. If you don’t agree and want to talk about an alternative side of some issue that’s been discussed here, Right now, however, our lines are full, but take this number down. In a few minutes, lines do open up continually through the hour, and you can probably get through if you call randomly at some point. The number to call is 844-484-5737. That’s 844-484-5737. All right, we’re going to go to the phones and talk to Brandon from Linwood, Washington, right away. Hi, Brandon. Welcome. Welcome.
SPEAKER 07 :
Hi, Steve.
SPEAKER 06 :
Thanks for calling.
SPEAKER 07 :
I wanted to comment on a caller yesterday about anointing the doors with oil. Okay. And preface it by saying that I appreciated your comment that it was superstitious. We’ve spoken before. You kind of know where I come from in that truck accord, so I’ll definitely take that to heart. But my perspective on it was kind of with the Passover, how they anointed their doors at that point and just kind of, I know it, It’s not super scriptural. That was a one-time off, but that was kind of the idea. And then I only do it when I move into a new place because I don’t really know what the previous tenant might have done in that space. And it kind of ties into my question of what it means to bind on earth and it is bound in heaven because that’s kind of the principle I take as well, where I’m going into a new house with a previous tenant who may have done something there. So it’s just kind of a way of claiming the space, saying this is holy ground now that This belongs to a new spirit, whatever may have previously come.
SPEAKER 06 :
I understand. I understand completely. You know, I once, years ago, moved into an apartment, which there was a demon there. There was a demon in it. We’d hear it walking around at night, you know, right next to our room. There was no one there. As soon as I commanded it to leave in the name of Jesus, it went away. We never heard it again. And then I found out later. from somebody who knew the person who had been in the house before, the apartment before, that it had been occupied by a witch who had practiced, you know, the occult there. And, I mean, she wasn’t just kind of a hobbyist witch. Her whole identity was as an occultist. And we have reason to believe that that had something to do with inviting that demon to be there. And, you know, certainly I’ve lived in many, many places, and that’s the only one I moved into that seemed to have that issue. Although I did live in another house later that seemed to have demons associated with it, but I’m not sure they didn’t come after I was there. Not because of me being there, but there were some other people, you know, occultists trying to put some spells on us, whatever. You know, I’ve lived in dozens of houses, and that just simply hasn’t been a norm anymore. But I’ve had enough experience to know that sometimes there are, you know, bad things associated with a property because of former tenants. So I understand that very well. I guess I just don’t have any confidence that anointing things with oil in the house will have any impact on that. But I don’t know that – I mean, I don’t know that it won’t. It’s just not scriptural. I mean, I realize that the idea of anointing the lintels and the doorposts with blood – was something that God instructed Israel to do in Egypt. That’s slightly different. He didn’t ask them to use oil, but actually blood, and that represented the blood of Jesus. I suppose if somebody is in their own mind saying to God, you know, I’m putting this oil here as a representation of Christ’s blood or whatever, I don’t know, I’m not sure that would make any difference either, but I agree with you. We can sometimes move into places that have a bad history and have some lingering memories, spiritual nastiness associated with it, in which case I personally believe prayer and taking authority over the evil spirits is very called for, very called for. I’m just not convinced that anointing with oil has anything to do with driving out spirits. But if somebody has said it has worked for them and they know it to have worked, well, then I’m not going to criticize, I suppose, because it’s not, even if I think it’s superstitious, It’s not a magical or occult practice, as near as I can tell. So it’s, you know, if somebody’s praying, and I think this is usually what people have done. You probably did the same with the houses you’ve moved into, is that many times as they’re applying the oil to different points, they’re also praying and taking authority over the demons. So, you know, if anything is effective in that ritual, I would say it’s the praying and the taking of authority over demons. I don’t know that the oil will make a difference, but I don’t know that it’s, does any harm. So I’m not going to oppose that. I’m just, I mean, when people ask me about things that aren’t in the Bible, many times the most I can say is it’s not in the Bible. That doesn’t mean it’s evil. You know? So the Internet’s not in the Bible either. And that doesn’t mean the Internet is evil. Though some people think it is. And it certainly can be used for that. But it can be used for good too. So I mean, there are things the Bible does not discuss directly that are not things we have to be worried about. Necessarily. But, yeah, this anointing with oil is simply not a practice that we find in the Bible. I’m not condemning it. I’m just saying that’s the nature of the case. I’m here to tell the truth and not to necessarily extrapolate beyond what I think the Bible would say about it. But I appreciate your call. Let’s talk to Ray from Toledo, Ohio. Ray, welcome.
SPEAKER 04 :
Hi, Steve. I just had a question about Psalm 82. Uh-huh. I listened to your website. I did make it in there the other day. I know it’s messed up. I’m looking forward to it being fixed now. But how does Psalm 82 fit in with what you were saying about them just being Israelites that were… He’s not talking about angels here? No, I don’t think he is. And then Jesus quotes this. He’s quoting it in John 10, 34. Now, why would Jesus compare himself to Israelites calling themselves sons of God? I just… For some reason, it just ain’t clicking right with me. I don’t understand.
SPEAKER 06 :
Well, first of all, he wouldn’t compare himself to an angel either. So, I mean, Jesus is far above the angels, just about as far above the angels as he is above us. In fact, perhaps further above them than he is above us, because we were made in his image and they were not. The Bible says we shall judge angels. So, I mean, any complaint we have that, oh, Jesus wouldn’t compare himself with people, well, that would be an argument incorrect. just as strong, or if not stronger, against him comparing himself with angels. I don’t believe he’s actually comparing himself with the persons addressed here. He’s saying that the Pharisees are being inconsistent in condemning him for using words that sound blasphemous to him when they have no problem with words that sound just as blasphemous in their own Bible. And he said, if he can call them gods, those to whom the word of God came, meaning the original readers, If they can be called gods, and they don’t have any problem with that, why do they have a problem with him saying he’s the son of God? That’s how he argues. He’s not saying that he’s like the people in Psalm 82. He’s saying that it’s very unlike their response, that is the Pharisees’ response to Psalm 82, which they don’t apparently take any offense toward, very unlike that, for them to take offense toward him, who actually has said something that sounds considerably less blasphemous. For someone to say they’re the son of God, I could say I’m the son of God, but I would never say I’m God. So, I mean, he’s saying your own scriptures call certain persons gods, and that doesn’t rile you up at all. And here I am saying I’m the son of God, and now you want to stone me to that? I don’t get this. This seems pretty inconsistent of you. And that’s often how Jesus argued. He often pointed out to them that they were trying to kill him or criticize him for things he did and said, which… Others before him had done, and the Pharisees had no problem with. Remember when his disciples were picking grain on the Sabbath, and the Pharisees criticized them for doing that on the Sabbath. And he said, haven’t you heard what David did when he ate the showbread? How come you don’t complain about him? You complain about these people, but you’re not complaining about him. How do you justify this accusation? This inconsistency. And that’s what he’s saying in John 10, which is when they said, we’re going to stone you because you’re a man and you call yourself the son of God. He said, well, doesn’t your own scripture refer to certain people as gods? So why would you accept that and not accept what I’m saying? Or at least be so alarmed by what I’m saying. So he’s not comparing himself with the people in the psalm. He’s simply pointing out that the verbiage in the psalm would seemingly be much more offensive to them than the verbiage of what he said. And yet they’re reacting very differently. Now, as far as what the psalm is talking about, it’s not just talking about Israelites. It’s talking about the leaders of the Israelites, the judges. They’re called the Elohim here. It says God stands in the congregation of the mighty, and he judges among the Elohim. And he says, how long will you judge unjustly? Okay, so… he’s referring to the readers as the Elohim. And yes, the word Elohim in some passages in Scripture refers to gods. In some passages, it’s actually a term for God himself. But the literal meaning of the word Elohim is a little more flexible because it literally means mighty ones. The word Elohim comes from the root word of mighty. And there are persons besides God and the gods of the heathen who are referred to as mighty ones. And among those who are in Scripture are what we call the judges or the rulers, the magistrates of Israel. We see this, for example, in Exodus chapter 22 and verse 28. Exodus 22, 28. It says… You shall not revile God, that is the Elohim, you shall not revile the Elohim, nor curse a ruler of your people. Now, in Hebrew parallelism, I believe this is referring to the Elohim as the rulers of the people. You don’t revile them, and you don’t curse them, the rulers of your people. Now, you wouldn’t have to see this passage that way, but it’s possible to, and it’s really reasonable to, in view of a couple of other places where the rulers seem to be called the Elohim. One is in Exodus 21.6. Go back a few chapters, and in Exodus 21.6, it says, if the slave wants to remain a slave after he’s offered his freedom, it says, then his master shall bring him to the Elohim, and he shall also bring him to the door of the doorpost. Now, the Elohim is translated judges in most English translations because it’s almost certainly referring to the judges. Now, in the Hebrew, it’s the Elohim. But likewise… In chapter 22, verse 9, it says, For any kind of trespass, whether it concerns an ox, a donkey, a sheep, or clothing, or for any kind of lost thing, which another claims to be his, the cause of both parties should come before the Elohim. The judges, it’s translated in most translations. Bring them before the Elohim, and whoever the Elohim condemn… That is, whoever the judges condemn shall pay double for his neighbor. So we see the word Elohim is used several times in the book of Exodus and referred to the leaders of Israel. Now, the same term is used in other contexts to God himself. So whenever you find it, or even to the pagan gods, the gods, so whenever you find the word, you have to go in the context and say, what in the world… Who are these Elohim in this context? Now, in Exodus 7-1, God said to Moses, See, I have made you as Elohim to Pharaoh, and Aaron your brother shall be your prophet. So I’ve made you like a God. You’re my representative. God’s representatives appointed by God to do his will as his agents, like Moses, are like Elohim. And that’s probably why the law several times says, You got court disputes? Take it before the Elohim. That’s plural. It means the judges. Now, with that in the background, Psalm 82 says, God stands in the congregation of the mighty and he judges among the Elohim. Now, does it mean, should we translate that God’s here or should we translate it judges? Well, let’s find out. Let’s read what he says to them. He says, how long will you judge unjustly and show partiality to the wicked? Now, by the way, if you read very much of the Old Testament, you’ll find that this is what God is continually telling the leaders of Israel to do. Stop showing partiality to the ones who can bribe them, the rich. Don’t neglect the justice for the poor and the needy. Especially do justice to the fatherless and the widows. I mean, this is a repeated theme throughout the Old Testament. And it’s always a condemnation of the judges or the rulers of Israel. Not angels, but humans. And it says in verse 6 then, he says, I said you are Elohim. And all of you are children of the Most High, but you shall die like men and fall like one of the princes. Okay, so many translators or commentators will say, which says you’ll die like men. He means you’ll die like any man, just like any other human, because you’re a human. And, you know, do angels die like men? Do they actually? There’s certainly no record in Scripture that angels die like men, no matter how bad they are. Even the fallen angels haven’t died like men. They’re kept in Tartarus, ready to go to the final judgment, which, as far as we know, is not death. That is the lake of fire. So, in other words, angels, I don’t think angels die like men or like princes. But he’s saying to these rulers, you think you’re gods because I’ve actually used that term. I’ve actually called you Elohim. I can see how that might go to your head, me calling you that. But just let me correct you here. You’re as mortal as anybody else. You might be spoken of as God’s agents, as little gods yourselves, in a sense. But you’re just men. You’re just princes. And you’ll die just like any other man or any other prince. That’s what I believe he’s saying. Now, what’s interesting here is these so-called Elohim, they are commanded to do the very things that the judges of Israel are to do. Show no partiality in the courtroom. You know, make sure you don’t neglect the justice to the helpless and the poor and the fatherless. It doesn’t sound like he’s talking about angels anywhere. And more than that, if he is talking to angels, he’s talking to sinful angels, not holy angels, right? Because he’s judging. He’s basically condemning them for the bad behavior. I don’t think holy angels ever have to come before God and answer for bad behavior. They’re obedient to him. So someone says, okay, well, these must be disobedient angels. These must be like fallen angels. Well, he’s calling them to repent. Are fallen angels allowed to repent? Is that something that’s actually out there as a possibility? I mean, sometimes when Origen said that people in hell can repent, people accused him of actually saying, well, you must believe even the devil and the demons can repent. And, of course, he never said that he believed that. But that’s considered to be an outrageous claim by many people, that the devil could repent, that the demons could repent. And yet, if these are angels, he’s calling them to repent. So, I mean, is that really part of our theology? Or is it more sensible to recognize that the judges of Israel, who are sometimes, several times, referred to as Elohim in the Old Testament, are now also addressed as Elohim and saying, listen, I called you Elohim, but you’re mortal, you’re going to die, and you need to repent. Now, this sounds like something God would say to humans. I’m not sure in what context it would fit as a statement made to angels. Do fallen angels get to repent? Well, I guess some people think so, but I’ve never… Now, by the way, I saw this verse in the way I’m describing right now, for years and years and years before Michael Heiser became famous for saying something else, he was not the only one. I’m sure there were other people who said what he said, that he became famous for his Council of the Gods theology, and he started out his book with this verse. He said he’d been a Christian and I think a Bible student in college for some time when some Christian showed him this and it blew his mind. And suddenly he, you know, it changed his whole paradigm. But I’m not sure why it would. I’ve taught through the Psalms for years before I ever heard of Michael Heiser. I’ve read his book. But, yeah, to me, comparing scripture to scripture did not lead me to that view of his. And I’m not condemning him. Many Christians have held his view, but many Christians hold views that I’ve rejected on the basis of my study of scripture, this being one of them.
SPEAKER 04 :
Okay. Thanks a lot. I appreciate it.
SPEAKER 06 :
Okay, Ray, thanks for your call. Okay, Ryan from Spartanburg, South Carolina. We’ve been hearing from you lately a lot. Hi.
SPEAKER 03 :
Hey, Steve. Thank you for taking my call. When you were talking about fasting, you said that this was not something that Jesus commanded his followers to do, but more he had an expectation that they would. And this opened my eyes to these two categories of things that God commands us to do and things that he merely has an expectation that we will do. And I became curious and I was wondering, would you be able to kind of rattle off the top of your head the different things that we are commanded to do and things that merely perhaps there’s an expectation we do? I just want to make sure that my Christian life is pleasing to God to the most that I can be. And I think if I have a better understanding of these two, I can, you know, better do that.
SPEAKER 06 :
Sure. Well, I would say whatever does not fall under any of the commands of Christ is not a Christian obligation. So since he didn’t ever command anyone to fast, it’s apparently not a Christian obligation. Now, that doesn’t mean it’s not a good thing to do. There’s a lot of things that are helpful and so forth that a Christian is not necessarily required to do. Take, for example, 1 Corinthians 7, where Paul says he thinks a great thing if you can stay single and just serve God with all your energy and all your focus and never get married. But he said not everyone can do that. And so he said if you go ahead and marry, you haven’t sinned, you know. So, I mean, like remaining single is one of those things where it’s a good thing to do, but it’s not commanded to do. And you’re not necessarily required or expected to stay single. In fact, Paul said probably the norm is the opposite, he said, to avoid fornication. let every man have his own wife and every woman her own husband. So he suggests that actually it’s more normative to be married, but it’s a good thing if you can handle it, if God gives you that gift to do it, to be single. So there’s a number of things of that sort. Certainly another case would be that there is such a thing as grounds for divorce in the teaching of Jesus, but there’s no command to divorce. So Jesus said you can’t divorce your wife unless it’s for the cause of fornication. But implying if it is for the cause of fornication, you can do it. But that doesn’t mean it’s something he wants you to do. That is, if you have an unfaithful wife, you can divorce her. I mean, God doesn’t command you to stay married beyond that point. But it may yet be something that God would wish for you to do. But you’ve got liberty. There are things that God would say, this is a good thing, and this is a better thing. Now, when it comes to fasting, I believe there’s a place for fasting in the Christian life. But I think that you never, actually, not only did Jesus not command us to fast, and Paul did not command anyone to fast, though they did fast. Jesus fasted, and so did Paul. And the elders of Antioch, we see them fasting, and Acts chapter 13, or no, excuse me, Acts chapter 11, is it, at the beginning there? And they’re fasting and praying and serving God. I believe that fasting has a role to play. It’s just not something that we are told to do under any kind of compulsion, you know, or with any kind of regularity. It’s kind of like taking communion in a sense. Jesus said, as often as you do this, do it in remembrance of me. He didn’t say you had to do it. He didn’t say how often you should do it if you did have to do it. He just said, whenever you do it, do it unto me. So I think some people like to take communion every day. Some Catholics do. Some people like to do it once a week. Some do it once a month. Some do it once every three months. Different churches have different practices. But there’s no command about it. And where there’s no command, there certainly is liberty, in my opinion. And so… When it comes to fasting, I think what Jesus would suggest is that fasting should be done quite organically and naturally. In the Old Testament, the Israelites were never commanded to fast except one day a year, which was the Day of Atonement, Yom Kippur. They were supposed to fast that one day as part of the ritual. But the other 360-something days of the year, they didn’t have to fast at all. But sometimes they did. You know, I mean, the Pharisees fasted twice a week. So did the disciples of John the Baptist. But that wasn’t commanded by God. David fasted when his infant son was sick and dying. And lots of people fasted. But I think fasting originally was understood to be part of mourning. And therefore something you would largely do if you are mourning. You might be mourning over your sins. It might be part of repentance. It might be mourning over some crisis. And you might be fasting along with your prayers that God would intervene in the crisis. Jesus, in Matthew chapter 9, when the Pharisees came and asked Jesus, why don’t your disciples fast? He said, why should they fast when the bridegroom is with them? It’s a festive time. But he says, but the time will come when the bridegroom is taken from them, and then they will mourn. Interesting, he used the word mourn as a substitute for the word fast there. Fasting is an appropriate expression of grief and mourning, I guess, and repentance sometimes. Not commanded, but if it’s normal, if it’s sincere, if it arises from a true broken heart, then it seems to me that it’s a positive thing. Now, there may be other values in fasting. I don’t have time to go into them now. I can’t give a whole Bible study on this subject here, but I have some materials online about it, which you apparently have heard or seen. But, yeah, it’s one of those things that people… can do and may find it profitable. If they don’t, they probably should change it up and do something different. Hey, I need to take a break. You’re listening to The Narrow Path. We have another half hour coming up. Don’t go away. We are listener supported. If you want to help us out, you can go to our website, thenarrowpath.com, which is now working again, thenarrowpath.com. I’ll be back in 30 seconds. Don’t go away.
SPEAKER 01 :
Do you find that reading the Bible leaves you scratching your head with more new questions than you had before you read it, but don’t know where to go for answers? You may be interested then in Steve Gregg’s many online lectures, downloadable without charge from our website, thenarrowpath.com. There’s no charge for anything at thenarrowpath.com. Visit us there and be amazed at all you have been missing.
SPEAKER 06 :
Welcome back to the Narrow Path Radio Broadcast. My name is Steve Gregg, and we’re live for another half hour. You can call in. We have a couple of lines that have opened up since the beginning of the program. You can get through right now if you call 844- Once again, that’s 844-484-5737. Now, I want to just say before we take our next call that in our previous half hour, at the end, we had a caller who was asking if I could give him a list of things which the Bible does not command us to do, but which might be, I think, good to do. so that if you don’t do them, you’re not sinning because it’s not really commanded. But if you do do it, it’s good. And I only gave a couple examples. I mean, there are more. I’m thinking of 1 Corinthians 9 as a source of several of those. I mentioned that Paul said it would be good to stay single if you can, but it’s not wrong to get married. So that’s an example of, you know, it’s great if you can stay single and serve God. But it’s not wrong to get married. Paul himself said in 1 Corinthians 9, you know, Barnabas and I, we have the right to get married, but we don’t because we don’t want to, you know, take ourselves away and distract ourselves from our work in the gospel. Now, there’s an example of something that. They’re doing good, but no one has to do what no one knows commanded to do the same thing in the same chapter. He said, do we not have the right to eat and drink? And he means by that to eat whatever we want to, even if it were, you know, someone else thinks it’s a bad thing. But he says, we don’t do that. We don’t eat the things that would be offensive to people because we don’t want to put a stumbling block before people. So let’s just say you like to drink, but there’s somebody in your circle. I mean alcohol, somebody in your circle who’s got a problem with drink. And it stumbles them to be around people who drink. They might stumble into taking a drink, too. They might find it weak. You know, it’s a funny thing. I wouldn’t have thought this would be true because I don’t care about alcohol. I’ve never enjoyed alcohol, don’t like it, never attempted to do it. But I know some people are, and I’ve always thought, well, it should be easy, just don’t drink it. And then I’ve noticed that sometimes, almost always, whenever I’m watching something on television or a movie, When they start pouring a cup of coffee, you know, when the actors are talking and one’s pouring a cup of coffee, they think, hmm, I think I want a cup of coffee. It’s funny. I’ve noticed that. There’s not much else they do on movies that make me want to do what they’re doing. But when I see them pour a cup of coffee, I think, yeah, maybe I want a cup of coffee, which is my weakness, I guess. It’s not a sin, but it’s a weakness. And so I guess I can understand if people have problems with alcohol. If they’re around people drinking alcohol, it kind of makes them maybe want it. I can understand that, I guess. So what Paul says, there’s things we don’t do, even though we have the liberty to do it, because it might stumble somebody else. And so he says we don’t have to abstain. I’m not commanded by God to abstain from those things. But it might be the better part of, you know, valor to be considerate of people and to say no to myself, to say, no, I’m not going to do that. because it might stumble someone else. Paul also gave in that same chapter, 1 Corinthians 9, the example of his ministry. He works with his hands to support himself in the ministry, so he doesn’t have to be supported by any kind of donations or anything like that. Now, he said, we don’t have to. He says, we can be paid. He says, don’t we have the right to be paid? And he gives several examples from the Old Testament of the priests. They are supported by their ministry and so forth, but But he said, but we don’t want to do that. We don’t want to put a stumbling block in front of people. We don’t want anyone to be able to criticize us, so we don’t take money. Now, there’s another example of something that’s not commanded. You’re not commanded to turn down donations. You’re not commanded to refuse support when you’re in the ministry. But Paul saw his own personal convictions. He wasn’t going to do it. If he could work with his hands and support himself and be in the ministry, he’s going to do that. Of course, he was a single man. He didn’t have the third obligation of keeping a family. Because they had a family and a ministry, their time obligations would make it very difficult, if not impossible, to hold a job too. But Paul had the ability to because he was a single man. That’s one of the reasons he thought it was good to be single. But not required. See, this is the point. There are things that are required of us, and then there’s things that are not required but are nonetheless good things to do. They’re at our discretion. And so I would just add those to the list of the things the previous caller was asking about. Okay. Let’s talk to Mike in cool California. I live in California. It’s not very cool. Hi, Mike.
SPEAKER 02 :
Good afternoon, Steve. Good to talk to you again. Yeah. So I was at a class at church last night, and it started off as a class on the Holy Spirit, which turned into a class on tongues, which turned into a class on having a prayer language. And they basically turned your prayer language into tongues. And towards the end of the class, they said, well, if you don’t have a prayer language… we have a prayer team who can help you learn how to have a prayer language. So great. So I thought about that and I thought, well, tongues is a gift. How can you teach someone a gift? Am I right in thinking that way?
SPEAKER 06 :
I think you are right. Um, Whenever I hear about people running schools of how to do supernatural things, the school of the supernatural, like they have in Bethel, up in Reading, and so forth, I think you can’t teach people the supernatural. Now, I will say this. There are some things that you can maybe remove barriers through good teaching toward. I mean, if people, let’s just say people are afraid to do something supernatural, because it seems weird to them, like speak in tongues, and they would otherwise do it, then teachers can say, well, don’t worry about that. That’s a biblical thing. Just let it go ahead. And Paul restricts it. I mean, Paul does give teachings about how to not speak in tongues. So he’s favorable towards speaking in tongues. In 1 Corinthians 14, it says, now, only two or three should speak in tongues one at a time in the church, only when there’s an interpreter. It even says this in verse 28, 1 Corinthians 14, 28, it says, if there’s no interpreter, let him, meaning the person who wants to speak in tongues in the church, let him keep silent in the church and let him speak to himself and to God. Speak in tongues to God? Yeah, because he’s praying. He’s uttering something to God. This is probably where the Pentecostals get the expression prayer language. Now, the Bible doesn’t speak about a prayer language, but it does talk about speaking in tongues as a gift to the Holy Spirit, and it talks about it as something that is addressed to God. For example, in 1 Corinthians 14, he says in verses 3 and 4, 1 Corinthians 14, 3 and 4, Paul says, He who prophesies speaks edification, exhortation, and comfort to men. But he who speaks in a tongue edifies himself. But he does not, he says, edifies himself. I should have read verse 2. He says, For he who speaks in a tongue does not speak to men, but to God. For no one understands him. However, in the Spirit he speaks mysteries. So the person speaking in tongues is not addressing humans. He’s addressing God, speaking to God. And so that’s why they would see speaking in tongues as a prayer function. If they call it a prayer language, they’re using language that goes beyond what the Scripture uses. But there is such a thing as praying in tongues, obviously. But as far as teaching people to do it, I think the most you can actually do is if you’re dealing with somebody who could be speaking in tongues, let’s just say God hasn’t withheld the gift from them, but they’re awkward about it, they’re shy about it, they’re afraid of it or whatever, it is possible to teach people it’s scriptural and the scriptural restrictions upon it and so forth and to encourage them. But you can’t impart to them the gift of tongues if they don’t have it. You can’t impart any gift to anyone else as far as I know. That’s supernatural. It’s God who has to do that. So having a class where they’ll teach you how to speak with tongues, I don’t like the way that sounds at all.
SPEAKER 02 :
Well, one of the strange things that brought it on was the leader of the class said, we want you all to start praying in your prayer language. Well, all of a sudden there was all this noise in the auditorium, and it reminded me of when Paul said it would sound like they were all drunk. Because all the people were speaking out loud, praying out loud in tongues. It was kind of weird.
SPEAKER 06 :
Well, that’s a very common thing for Pentecostal and charismatic churches to do. I agree with you. It kind of sounds contrary to what Paul said should be done. Unfortunately, many churches do many things contrary to what Paul said. I’m not favorable toward that at all. I think everyone ought to do what Paul said and what Jesus said and what the other apostles said. That’s what the Bible says. And yet we have churches that will appoint women in eldership, which Paul said he did not approve. We have churches that don’t follow biblical guidelines for qualifications for their leaders. I mean, there’s many ways in which people have departed from Paul’s to the church, and I don’t think that’s good. I think we should follow his instructions. We have to realize one thing, though, and that is that many of the things Paul said, Christians who wish to follow him interpret differently than other Christians who want to obey him. Remember, Peter himself said in 2 Peter 3 that our beloved brother Paul wrote of these things. He said, which those who are unlearned and unstable twist to their own destruction as they do the other scriptures. But he said that’s because some of these things are hard to be understood. He actually says Paul’s writings are sometimes hard to be understood. Now, we don’t want to twist or ignore his teachings, but even people who wish to be subject to Paul’s teachings sometimes have interpreted things that are hard to be understood differently than someone else looking at the same passages. And that’s why you’ll have some people who say, well, we can have female pastors, because when Paul said that, he meant X, Y, Z, something other than it sounds like he means, but they’ve convinced themselves that’s what he meant. And likewise, people say, well, we can all speak in tongues at the same time in the church, even though Paul said not to do it. One could argue, well, you know, Paul was trying to correct a chaotic situation in the Corinthian church. He was kind of locking them down more than he might if they were more well-behaved. His instructions might not be generally applicable to everybody who’s somewhat more orderly. I mean, people can think that way, and they can apply that. And because people do have differences about these things, that’s why they have different practices, sometimes that strike us as clearly disobedient to what the Scripture says. But they’re, in their own minds, they’re seeing it. They’re seeing what the Scripture says on that point differently. Now, if someone’s not a Christian, and hears me say that, they say, well, how can we even, why should we even be Christians if it’s all that unclear, if no one can even agree about what it means? Well, Christians all do agree about what it means to be a Christian, I think. Basically, the essential things that define a person being pleasing to God and being a pretty clear, and I don’t think any real Christians hold different views about them. But there are lots of things less important. And they may be more important to this person or that person than they are to God. They might even be absolutely defining of their denomination, which is a shame because that’s a carnal thing to have a denomination defined by something that’s not one of the major things that God cares about. But I see myself, you know, taking the Bible much more literally in almost all these situations. Some people have found ways to convince themselves that Paul’s intention was different. And so they’re not deliberately disobeying him. They’re just obeying what they interpret him to mean. So that’s what you’re going to find in Pentecostal and charismatic churches. Obviously, if you don’t understand the Scripture the same way they do and the practice is offensive, then I really strongly recommend you find a different church to go to because it’s going to be urgent to you if you think they’re not obeying Scripture enough. Hey, we need to move along and talk to Izzy from Chula Vista, California. Izzy, welcome.
SPEAKER 05 :
How are you doing, Steve? Hi. Thank you for taking my call. First and foremost, I want to thank you for being such a blessing to me in my Christian walk. Thank you. And through my trials. From the bottom of my heart, I really want to thank you, brother.
SPEAKER 06 :
Well, I thank you for saying so. God bless you. I’m glad to hear it helps.
SPEAKER 05 :
Yes, yes, and actually I just started your book, The Empire of the Risen Sun. Okay. So I’m expecting big blessings from it, and I thank you again. Steve, I have an opinion, and I want to hear your take on it. I believe people who are going through terminal illnesses like ALS or some incurable cancers, I believe it’s God’s way to purify us and to give us the ability to look up and see his sovereignty over our lives. And if I’m on the right path, you know, just like the thief on the cross, who his doom was there, but he looked over and told Jesus that, You know, he was guilty. He was a sinner, but that Jesus was an innocent man. And then the Lord acknowledged him. So if I’m in the right path, how do you share that with people who are going through illnesses that are going to, you know, take their life? How do you share that, especially nonbelievers or marginal Christians? Yeah.
SPEAKER 06 :
Well, that’s a good question. And obviously you and I who are not, I mean, I don’t know what your health situation is like. You’re talking like somebody like myself who’s in reasonably good health, not facing a terminal illness, you know, immediately. You know, it’s awfully hard to speak to people like that, even speaking the truth, which will help them if they can receive it. it’s often the case that they’ll be reluctant to receive it from someone who doesn’t seem to be in that condition. Simply, I mean, they might say, well, it’s easy for you to say. If I say, well, listen, this is really a time to be looking to God and trusting God and recognizing that God has a purpose in this, that you might even die and that could even be his purpose in it. You never really know, but realize that God’s will is best and he never does anything wrong and you can trust him Not just to heal you because he might not heal you. He heals some people. He doesn’t heal everybody. But just trust him to do what is right, including if this is your time to go and pray that you’ll glorify him in your death. Now, those are things that a person in that condition should hear and should accept. But if I’m in perfect health and I’m saying all those things, it may seem like cheap talk to them. because their life is really on the line. I can see how they could say that. It’s easy for you to say. But it’s not easy for us to say. First of all, it’s not easy for us to say because we know that it’s hard to say that without seeming insensitive. It’s hard to say that without offering some kind of hope of their relief, which is what they really want to hear about, I suppose. It’s not easy for us to say. And by the way, we have to obviously face our own sufferings, whether they’re terminal illness or something else. We have to face them with the same set of convictions. And when you talk about how do you speak to a non-Christian employee, I think I would speak, I mean, if they would allow me and if it wouldn’t seem too insensitive, I think I would just want to speak the truth to them and say, listen, this is exactly what I would be thinking if I was in your condition. And fortunately, I can say that I have been in what seemed like hopeless conditions before. I’ve even been in life-threatening conditions before. Not life-threatening health conditions, but, I mean, I’ve been in situations where, you know, I heard that somebody had put a contract out on me. Well, this was many years ago. And I think they probably had. I don’t know if they had or not. But, you know, if you’ve heard that someone has, Even if it’s not true, you don’t know it’s not true. You kind of have to just live with that in the back of your mind. There’s a contract killer out to get me. You know, anyone who’s facing a situation that is potentially threatening to kill you or even just make your life miserable, you know, has got to apply the same truth because the truth is the same for all. I would say, and this is what I would say to myself personally, But then I’m a lot more cerebral than some people are about things like this, because actually I’m not afraid to die. I’ve never been afraid to die, and I’ve always looked forward to it. Honestly, I don’t like suffering, but I would look forward to seeing Jesus. I mean, if I knew I was going to die next week, if I was on death row and they’re going to kill me, or if I had a disease and the doctor said you’re going to be dead in three weeks. I would take that as a great joy, but not everyone does. So I realize that not everyone’s like me. But the truth is the same, whether I apply it to myself or anyone else. The truth is you’re going to die. We’re all going to die. Something’s going to get you. You might die perfectly healthy until the very moment the car crashes or until the moment the A-bomb goes off in nearby town or some other horrible thing happens, the plane crashes. We’re all going to die of something, and there’s no guarantee that any of us will live to be old. I already have, so I’ve already lived to be old, but I didn’t expect to necessarily. It certainly never occurred to me that I had to. We’re going to die when God wants us to die. There’s only one thing that really is up to us. It’s not whether we die or not. It’s whether we are living our lives in a proper relationship with God, trusting God. Honoring God, wishing to glorify God. All people have that same obligation, whether they’re healthy or unhealthy. And so me and anyone else who’d be of like mind with me about this would say, well, it looks like I’m probably going to die of this thing. At least I know what it is. It’s going to take me. I knew something would. I’ve always known something was going to take me. It’s almost kind of nice to have forewarning about it, in a way, so it doesn’t catch you off guard. Now I know what it is that’s probably going to take me out. And my duty in this, as well as in any other, is to please God, to glorify God. And many, many people have done so on their deathbed. Many people have glorified God in their illness and in their disability and in their imprisonment and in their suffering of all kinds, even in their martyrdom. The main concern a Christian has is not for his health, although obviously that is on the list of things that are concerns. But the main concern of all is that we glorify God, whether in sickness or in health, in life or in death. And if someone says, well, I’ve never seen it that way, well, unfortunately, perhaps someone has never told you what Christianity is. Often evangelists don’t tell you this. They just tell you that Christianity is get a ticket to heaven. But no, Christianity, being a Christian, means living with one concern over all other concerns, and that is that God will be glorified whether I live or die, whether I’m healthy or sick, whether I’m rich or poor, whether I’m in a happy marriage or a miserable marriage, whether I’m lonely and single, it doesn’t matter what condition I’m in, whatsoever condition I’m in, I can do all things through Christ. I’ve learned to be content in every state. And that would include, I’m not in that state now, but I may yet be, and it may not be long from now. If I’m in a state of terminal illness, well, okay. How is that different? How is that different? It just means that death is coming for me. But how is that different? It’s always coming for me. We’re all going to face death. The real issue is not whether we’ll die or not. That’s not avoidable. What is the issue is, will I glorify God? Will I pass from this life into the presence of God? And he’ll say, well done, good and faithful servant. Can anything be more satisfying than that? Can anything be worth more than that for God who created you? When you pass into his presence for him to say something like that to you, that’s got to be your concern. Not when you’re sick only. When you’re healthy. Every person who’s sensible must certainly adopt that attitude. That whatever happens to me, I want to glorify God. Now, God might heal. Everyone who’s really sick hopes he will. But he doesn’t always. And if he doesn’t, that’s his prerogative. Because a Christian is somebody who’s surrendered and recognized we’ve been bought with a price. We’re not our own. And therefore we belong to God. Christ’s blood has paid for us. And as long as we want to be paid for and redeemed, we have to be owned. And we have to recognize we don’t have our own way. We don’t get our own way. God does. And so that’s Those are the truths. Now, I don’t know how to say those to some people who don’t have that mentality about God. To me, that could sound extremely insensitive, and I don’t want to sound insensitive, but I don’t want to lie either. You don’t want to give people false hopes or distract them from the most important thing that they need to be thinking right now. So I’m not very pastoral. That’s why I’m not a pastor. I’ve never really been a pastor because I’m not very pastoral. A person who’s got more pastoral gifts would say those things a lot more Maybe gently, maybe more tactfully. But if you don’t get those truths across one way or another, you’re not doing the best you can for that person. But obviously, you might want to, some people have more gifts than I do about being gentle about those things. Because to me, if I were lying on my deathbed, I would not see myself as being in a crisis at all. I’d see myself very near. to what my goal has been for all my life, and that is to see Jesus. But obviously some people don’t have that goal, and so you’re going to have to approach them whatever way their hearts can accept, and that’s different for different people. But those are the things. My series of lectures called Making Sense of Suffering, actually I think could be a helpful thing. Many people who are suffering have found help in that lecture series. And since I’m not talking to them directly about their own situation, it doesn’t feel like I’m I hope it doesn’t feel like I’m being insensitive to anyone because I’m just speaking generically. And sometimes things that people wouldn’t hear easily from another person, they might accept from a faceless, you know, audio lecture that tells them the truth. But those are the things that are the truths that I think they need to know. I would also like to know, I’m very sorry. for the world to lose them and for any suffering they’re going through. But having expressed my sympathy, I’d want them to know the things that they would best know before they face God. So, again, I’m not the most pastoral person. A lot of people would be better at saying those things than I would be. But those are what I’d say, because that’s what I would want someone to say to me if I didn’t know it and I was suffering. And we’re to do it to others what we would want done to us. Anyway, brother, I’m sorry to hear if you’ve got someone in that situation you’re trying to reach, I’m sorry that they’re in that situation. I never am happy to hear of anyone suffering, even though I know that in the end God will do what’s good. But it doesn’t make it easier for some people. You know, the thing is, it may make it easier for them to suffer, but it doesn’t make it easier for us to see them suffer. That makes it very hard. Anyway, I’m sorry we’re out of time, but I hope there may be something of that helpful to you. 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