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This episode raises intriguing questions about the nature of the Davidic Covenant and how it stands as a covenant without the traditional signs. Through listener calls, we get into the nitty-gritty of leadership within the church, discussing the meaning behind Hebrews 13:17 and the accountability leaders have for those they guide. Finally, we explore the essence and boundaries of faith in miraculous signs and whether living in worry contrasts with a faithful life in Christ.
SPEAKER 1 :
Thank you.
SPEAKER 02 :
Good afternoon and welcome to the Narrow Path Radio Broadcast. My name is Steve Gregg and we’re live for an hour each weekday afternoon. Welcome to a new week. We welcome you to call in if you have questions about the Bible, about the Christian faith, about Christian life, Christian history, Christian theology, any of that stuff. If you are interested quite on the other side of the aisle from the host. Perhaps you’re not even a Christian and you might even have objections to the Bible or to the Christian faith or you’re a Christian and you see things differently. I welcome your calls. I’d be glad to talk to you about anything you want to bring up along those lines. Right now we have two lines open, which means you could get through if you call right now. The number is 844-484-5737. That’s 844- Our first call today is Ryan calling from Spartanburg, South Carolina. Hi, Ryan. Welcome to The Narrow Path. Thanks for joining us.
SPEAKER 04 :
Thank you. I want to say that all my life I was kind of a dispensationalist because in Christian school that’s what we were taught up until I think October 7th and one of your lectures popped up on YouTube and I had never heard anything other than I guess dispensationalist theology but it kind of I opened up my mind to, you know, how you were saying that none of God’s promises were unconditional to Israel. And I began to stumble upon some other verses. I just wanted to get your take on it. In John 8, 39, when Jesus is speaking to, I believe, Pharisees. And he says, if you were Abraham’s children, you would be doing the works Abraham did. If God were your father, you would love me, for I came from God and I am here. And then in verse 44, he says, you are of your father the devil, and your will is to do your father’s desires. I guess my question is, when I… see everything going on in the news and, you know, myself wanting to go visit Israel and walk down the same steps that Jesus walked. And I come across things that there’s Orthodox Jews that spit on Christians if they see anyone with a cross and then their kids do the same. And I guess I’m just a little bit confused and I’m wondering, in your mind, is when Paul is talking about Jews being cut off or the vine that will be cut off, And Jesus is talking about in John 8, 39, these verses. Would you classify these types of Orthodox Jews or religious Jews as the same category as Jesus and Paul is talking about?
SPEAKER 02 :
Well, absolutely, because the Orthodox Judaism of today is unashamedly the religion of the Pharisees. Now, when Jesus walked the earth, almost all the Jews were religious people. But there were three branches of the religious Judaism. One was what the Sadducees held to. One was what the Essene community held to. And then there were the Pharisees. There were only 6,000 Pharisees, most historians think, in the time of Jesus, but they were disproportionately influential over the people’s religious lives. Now, when Jerusalem was destroyed in 70 AD, the Sadducean group came to an end. And three years later, the Essene group came to an end. And so the only religious group of Jews that remained after the destruction of Jerusalem was the Pharisees. And they became what we call Talmudists. They met at a place called Javna, and they established some of the Talmudic religion, which is the Talmud is really a writing down, of oral traditions that were popular and which the Pharisees taught in the time of Jesus. Jesus actually interacted with them about some of those traditions when they criticized Jesus for not washing his hands properly or his disciples for not doing so. Jesus said, well, you guys are just keeping your traditions. Well, they called them the traditions of the elders. These traditions of the elders that were orally transmitted in the time of Christ, after the fall of Jerusalem, they were eventually written down into the Talmud, first the Babylonian Talmud, then the Jerusalem Talmud. I think that was the order of it. And that’s what Orthodox Jews today believe. And, you know, we think of Pharisee as a bad word because Jesus used the term Pharisee almost as equivalent with hypocrite. But to the Orthodox Jews, the Pharisees were the good guys. They’re the good guys in the story, and they are in no way ashamed. of having the same religion. They see themselves as the religious descendants of the Pharisees, and they are. So, you know, the Orthodox Jews today that would, as you say, spit on Christians and so forth as you go to Israel, they are the Pharisees today. They are the same people that Jesus said, you’re of your father the devil to them. Now, the thing is, unlike Jesus’ day, most Jews today are not religious. In Jesus’ day, Jews were mostly religious, and they belonged to one of these parties. Today, the majority of Jews in the world are not necessarily religious. At least the majority of those in Israel are not. The statistic is that about 20% or less of the Jews in Israel are religious. That means that it’s largely a secular country. And at least 20% of the Jews in Israel identify as atheists. So you’ve got as many Jews in Israel who call themselves atheists as there are who call themselves religious Jews. And only half of 1% of the Jews in Israel identify as Christians. So it’s not a country that’s either religiously Jewish or religiously Christian by any means. It’s a country that’s secular. And the Knesset, the ruling body, identifies as a secular body. It’s unlike Israel in the Bible. In the Bible, Israel was a people who were identified as God’s covenant people. And that covenant was identified with the temple. And the temple was the center of Jewish life from the time of Solomon, essentially, until the Babylonian exile. And then they built the temple again after the exile. It was the center of Jewish life until 70 A.D. The country was always built around their worship of Yahweh. That is not the case today. Israel today is an entirely secular nation. The Jews in Israel are a smaller percentage religious Jews than the Jews in America are. Jews in America are more religious than the Jews in Israel. But it’s a secular country. And for us to make the mistake of thinking that the country over there, just because it has the same name, is in some sense the same country that you read about in the Bible, It’s just not the case. Now, you know, when Jesus said, if you were Abraham’s children, you would do the deeds of Abraham, it makes it very clear that God identifies the children of Abraham not by their ancestry. And we would know that anyway if we gave it much thought. Judas was descended from Abraham, and he’s not a godly guy. Caiaphas and the Sanhedrin, who stoned Stephen to death and condemned Christ to death, they definitely were not godly, but they were descended from Abraham. It’s obvious that Jesus is saying being descended from Abraham means nothing to God. In fact, John the Baptist said that before Jesus started preaching. John the Baptist said to the Jews, don’t think to say within yourself, we have Abraham for our ancestor. This would be in Matthew 3 and in Luke 3, I think. He said, don’t think to say within yourselves that we have Abraham for our ancestor. God could make of these stones descendants of Abraham. So, in other words, to John the Baptist and Jesus and Paul, as we see, Being Jewish or being a descendant of Abraham had to do with your spiritual likeness to Abraham, not to your physical descent from him. Jesus said if you were Abraham’s seed, you’d do the works of Abraham. Paul said in Galatians chapter 3, it says in Galatians 3, 7, Paul says, Therefore know that only those who are of faith are the sons of Abraham. Well, most Jews in Paul’s day and now, are not of the faith. And he means the Christian faith. Only those who have the faith are the children of Abraham. So Jesus, John the Baptist, Paul, they all agreed being a child of Abraham means nothing if it’s only that you’re physically descended. Now if you go to Israel today, and 80% of the Jewish people there are secular, well they certainly aren’t of the faith. And even the Orthodox Jews there, they’re just like the Pharisees. They’re not of the faith either. They’ve rejected the Messiah. How can you be loyal to God when you hate his Messiah. So, I mean, like half of 1% of the Jews in Israel believe in Jesus as the Messiah. So the nation is 99.5% not children of Abraham by the definitions that Jesus gave and that Paul gave and that John the Baptist gave. So that’s the nature of the case. Christians in America know very little about this apparently most of the time because of dispensationalism. Dispensationalism ignores these statements and does not know what to make of them. So they don’t make anything of them. They just ignore them and say, well, God made promises to Abraham in his seed. Yeah, he did. He certainly did. And he also has defined for us what he means by that. And it doesn’t mean what you’re saying, you know. So, you know, welcome to the New Testament, Ryan. Thank you so much, Hugh. I appreciate your time. Okay, brother. God bless you. All right. Let’s talk to Ian from St. George, Utah. Hi, Ian. Welcome.
SPEAKER 1 :
Hey.
SPEAKER 07 :
Thanks for having me on, Steve. Yeah. So, well, first of all, if you don’t mind, if everybody out there could pray for me to find a job, that’d be really great. That’s not my question, though, but if that could happen, that’d be awesome.
SPEAKER 08 :
All right.
SPEAKER 07 :
So I wanted to talk to you. Yes, please. I wanted to talk to you about the Davidic Covenant a little bit. And, you know, I like you, although I differ from you in many different ways, don’t really fit in anywhere, you know, with any particular denomination or anything like that. I’ve got different ideas about things that don’t squarely fit into any particular denomination, and I’m just trying to be as biblically faithful as possible. And a couple of things that I’ve been concerned with is, The Davidic covenant, I don’t know. I mean, I’m looking at it and I’m wondering, can we rightly call it a covenant? Because there’s no sign of it, nor is there any bloodshed when he gives the covenant. I mean, he makes a promise to David about his offspring. But would it be proper to say, hey, I mean, could we look at this and say, can we truly call this a covenant? Because, again, it’s not like any other covenant previous that there’s a sign given, nor is there a sacrifice made. So I’m wondering if we could truly call it a covenant or just a prophecy or something like that.
SPEAKER 02 :
Well, it is true that sometimes in the ancient world, a covenant was made accompanied by the shedding of blood, animals being separated into two parts, the covenanting parties passing between the parts of the animals, and so forth. But it’s not necessary to have that in order for something to be a covenant. A covenant is really like a contract, and sometimes it was solemnized with that kind of ritual, and sometimes it apparently was not. You know, I think the Jews have always spoken of it, and I think Christians typically do too, as a covenant, the covenant that God made with David. And I think maybe the Psalms use that term. I’m going to have to look it up to see. In Psalm 89, I know, it says, let me see here. I’m not seeing the word covenant there as I thought it was there. But in any case, yeah, I mean, if you don’t want to call it a covenant, I don’t suppose anyone’s required to call it that, but that’s typically referred to as the Davidic covenant because it was a promise. Now, someone might say, but was that a conditional or unconditional covenant? Well, you know, he didn’t state any condition for him to fulfill the ultimate purpose. The promise was that he’d going to bring up a seed of David. whose son is thrown forever. And that’s, of course, a reference to the Messiah. And it doesn’t sound as if there’s anything David could do to prevent God from doing that. But it does say that David would have other seed too, besides the Messiah. And that if they sin, God would strike them and discipline them with the rods of men, he says. This is in the original promise he made in 2 Samuel chapter 7. And he says, if he commits sin, meaning if any son of David who’s reigning after him, and there were many, there were like 20 of them who did, sequentially. If he commits iniquity, I will chasten him with the rod of men and with the blows of the sons of men. But my mercy shall not depart from David as I took it from Saul. Now, what he’s saying is, even if some of David’s sons go bad, I’m not going to withdraw this promise that the Messiah will come from David. Oh, I think maybe my faithful wife has showed up with a note for me. She can look things up. I often don’t have time to do so during the program. But there’s in Psalm 89, which is the psalm I was looking at, there’s some verses there that I wasn’t looking at. So let me turn there real quickly. Yeah. Psalm 89, verse 3, God says, I have made a covenant with my chosen. I’ve sworn to my servant David. So, yeah, it does use the word covenant there. Oh, okay. All right. In verse 3. Yeah. And some other verses, too.
SPEAKER 07 :
One of those situations where I’m happy to be wrong. I’m just looking at it and going, well, there was no sign, and there was no shedding of blood, and there was no… Especially the sign part of it. But, I mean, you know, the thing that causes me to think about it and look and reevaluate it is I’ve, you know, I used to, when I was younger, much younger, I used to come out of a Presbyterian, more or less, background. And the thing that really broke, and I’m not dispensationalist, and I’ve called it up. I hope you know that. But you get a lot of callers, so I don’t know if you remember. But I’m what’s called New Covenant Theology. But the thing that really broke covenant theology, at least to be called covenant theology proper, was this idea that God established a covenant with Adam after the fall, a covenant of grace in which every other covenant… Yeah, and it’s not stated. And so people, a lot of times, covenant theology will kind of throw in, oh, this word covenant, where, if anything, it’s a promise to the devil that he’s going to destroy him. That’s right.
SPEAKER 02 :
He did make the statement to Satan that he was going to destroy him. By the way, the word covenant, referring to the Davidic covenant, is used a number of times in Psalm 89, as it turns out. It’s in verse 3. verse 28, verse 34, and verse 39. All those verses in Psalm 89 refer to the covenant that God made with David. Now, of course, the New Testament says that God has fulfilled that covenant in Christ. The promise was that the Messiah would rule upon the throne of David forever, and according to Acts 2, That has been fulfilled. And also Acts 13. Peter said it in Acts 2. Paul said it in Acts 13. So the apostolic teaching is, of course, that that promise has been fulfilled. And as you know, dispensationalists say it has not. So the dispensationalists and Paul and Peter would have to get into a brawl about that because I think Peter and Paul would be fairly adamant about their theology. And it’s contrary to dispensationalism. Yeah.
SPEAKER 07 :
I just, I always, I have to, I’m baffled with this sensationalism. Like it says, you know, he spoke these words concerning this covenant that he raised up the Lord Jesus Christ. I don’t know how words can get any clearer that that’s been fulfilled. But anyway, all right. Well, thank you for your time and for your scholarship and for all that you do for the kingdom of God.
SPEAKER 02 :
And for my wife. Give me those references. Yes.
SPEAKER 07 :
For your wife as well. Yes. And all your staff as well. They’re all very nice.
SPEAKER 02 :
And I hope you find a job, brother. Thank you. God bless. God bless you, too. Bye now. Mike from Columbus, Ohio. Welcome to The Narrow Path. Thanks for calling.
SPEAKER 05 :
Hey, Steve. I’ve got two questions. One I think you can answer pretty quickly. In Hebrews 13, verse 17, where it says, Obey them that have rule over you and submit yourselves where they watch over your souls as they must give an account. What does that mean, as they must give an account for what they say in verse 7? or over the parishioners?
SPEAKER 02 :
Okay, well, when you talk about those who have the rule over you, first of all, I would say the King James is mistaken in using the word rule. The literal meaning of the Greek word is those who lead you. And that’s an important point, because church leaders sometimes think they’re supposed to be the rulers, and the Bible only refers to them not ruling, but leading people. And leaders go ahead and set an example and teach leaders, But there’s no function of ruling that is suggested in the passage, though that is the word that King James has used. Now, those who lead you, that is the ones that are in King James called those who rule over you, are mentioned in three verses. And it’s important to see at least two of them to know who we’re talking about here. In Hebrews 13, 7, he says, Remember those who lead you, who have spoken the word of God to you. whose faith follow, considering the outcome of their conduct. Now, in other words, follow the example of their faith and conduct, because they’re leaders. And they are the ones who have spoken the word of God to you. Therefore, remember them. And that suggests to, you know, remember them with respect and honor and appreciation. And then the verse you mentioned, verse 17, he says, Obey those who lead you and be submissive, for they watch out for your souls, as those who must give an account. You say, now, who do they give account to? Well, remember at the end of his life on earth, Jesus in John 17 was praying, and he was giving an account of his stewardship over the disciples that God gave him. He said, all those that you’ve given me, I’ve kept them, and none of them is lost except the son of perdition. So it’s like you gave me 12 guys, and I’ve been faithful working on them. I’m now at the end of my life. I’m giving a report of what’s been accomplished. Yeah, one of those guys got lost, but the other 11, they’re solid. And that’s kind of saying, you entrusted me with these people of yours, God, and here’s my report of how it turned out. And that’s giving an account to God. Now, if God calls somebody to be, let’s say, a prophet, Ezekiel was a prophet, and God told Ezekiel, you know, if the watchman sees the enemy coming and doesn’t warn the people and they get wiped out, then their blood is on his head. In other words, he has a job. He has an assignment. He’s supposed to preach and warn the people and speak for God to the people. But Ezekiel is also told, if you warn them and they don’t repent and they don’t listen to you, well, their blood’s not on your head, it’s on theirs. So it’s not your fault. If you have faithfully preached the word of God to these people, that’s all you’re expected to do. When you faithfully speak for God, you are discharging your commission. What they do with it is on them. Now, you see that the prophet then, like Jesus himself, God gives them something to do. And if they do it faithfully, they can come to the end of their life and say, I’ve done what you gave me to do. And Jesus actually did say that also in John 7, verse 4. He says, 17, 4. He said, Father, you know, I’ve accomplished the thing you sent me to do. I finished it. That’s giving an account at the end of your life. Now, every steward is going to have to give an account. You know, the parable of the pounds, the parable of the talents. In both of those parables, the master gives his servants stuff with the assignment that they should use it profitably for him. And he goes away. And when he comes back, he calls the servants to himself to give account for their stewardship. So this is, again, the idea of giving account. He gave you five talents. What have you done? He gave you two talents. He gave you one talent. What have you done? What have you accomplished? Every one of us have been given something to do by God. And there’s nobody who’s here for nothing. Everyone’s here with an assignment. People have different assignments from each other, but they have an assignment. When Jesus comes back, we will all give account. Now, these leaders, it is assumed that they are people that God has gifted and raised up to teach and to lead the flock in the right way that they should go. And leading, of course, has to have been an example, living the way the people should live so they’ll know how it’s done and teaching them how it’s done. That’s what the leaders here are described as. It’s an assignment God has given them. Now, whether the people follow them or not, that’s on the people. That’s not on these guys. But they have to give an account to God for how well they’ve done this. And he says, be submissive to them so that they have to give an account. Let them do it with joy. Don’t be a pain. Don’t be a pain to them. They’re trying to show you the way to go. They’re trying to teach you. Just don’t make it difficult for them. They’re going to have to give an account to God. And try not to make their job worse by being rebellious. Now, I want to say this. Many people, and by the way, those same people I mentioned, they’re three times mentioned in Hebrews 13. The other mentioned is in verse 24. which simply says, greet all those who lead you and all the saints. So we’ve got those who lead you. The same phrase is used three times in Hebrews 13, verse 7, verse 17 and verse 24. But when he says submit to them, he’s already said 10 verses earlier who he’s talking about. Those who lead you, who have spoken the word of God to you. He didn’t say those who hold some political office in the church or those who are the full time pastors or the elected elders or anything. No, the ones who have spoken the Word of God to you. If the leaders have done what they’re supposed to do, now, by the way, if they don’t, they’ll give account to God for not doing so. But if they’ve done what they’re supposed to, they will be teaching you the Word of God. They will be speaking the Word of God faithful to you because you are to be submitted to the Word of God. Now, when they speak the Word of God to you, as it says in verse 7, then they should be obeyed, as verse 17 says, not because they wear a badge, not because they have stripes on their arm and have some rank, but because they spoke the Word of God to you. You’re supposed to be submissive and obedient to the Word of God, and these are the guys who are assigned to teach it to you. If they teach it to you, they’ve done well, and you should obey them. Now, he’s not saying that people who don’t teach the Word of God or who teach contrary to the Word of God, you have to obey them, too, because they hold an office and they’re in a pulpit on Sunday mornings. No, I mean, they’re not the ones who lead you. The ones who lead you are defined as the ones who speak the Word of God to you. So if church leaders are speaking the Word of God, obey it. Obey them. Because they’re speaking the Word of God, and you have to obey that. Now, it is implied, and it would be certainly understood, the apostles would certainly agree with that when they dealt with the Sanhedrin and so forth, if they don’t speak according to what God said, if they don’t teach the Word of God, then you must obey God rather than man, like Peter said about himself. He stood before the leaders of Israel, and they said, don’t preach anymore in the name of Jesus. Well, that’s not according to the word of God. That’s contrary. So he said, well, we’ve got to obey God, not man. There’s no obligation for you to follow any human being who’s teaching you contrary to the word of God. If you have faithful leaders in the church, they will teach the word of God, and you will be obligated to obey that. But you’re never obligated to obey somebody who’s teaching you contrary to the Word of God. And so, you know, that’s what that’s about. Now, they will have to give an account for whether they faithfully did teach the Word of God. They won’t have to give an account for how you turned out. If they’ve done all that they’re supposed to do, and you turn out badly because you rebelled, well, you’re not going to hurt them eternally. But you’re going to make it a pain in the neck for them to try to lead you. And that’s what he says. Let them lead with joy, not with difficulty. So that’s the teaching of Hebrews 13 about that. I need to take a break here. We have another half hour coming up, so don’t go away. You’re listening to The Narrow Path. We are a listener-supported ministry. If you’d like to know how to help us out, you can go to our website, which has a ton of stuff, and it’s all free. It’s thenarrowpath.com. I’ll be back in 30 seconds, and we have another half hour. Don’t go away.
SPEAKER 01 :
The Narrow Path is on the air due to the generous donations of appreciative listeners like you. We pay the radio stations to purchase the time to allow audiences around the nation and around the world by way of Internet to hear and participate in the program. All contributions are used to purchase such airtime. No one associated with The Narrow Path is paid for their service. Thank you for your continued support.
SPEAKER 02 :
Welcome back to the Narrow Path Radio Broadcast. We have another half hour together live. If you’d like to call in with your questions about the Bible, you may be able to get in this half hour. I will say the lines are full right now, so don’t bother calling at the moment. But lines are going to be opening up throughout the half hour, and you may get through if you call this number. 844-484-5737 Before the break, we were talking to Mike in Columbus, Ohio. Mike, did you have a second question?
SPEAKER 05 :
Yeah, really quick. It’s kind of based off of Matthew 18, but not exactly. Matthew 18 states if someone sins against you, pull them aside and tell them of that sin. My question is, if I see someone sin, like in my church circles, or maybe perhaps my kids tell me, hey, so-and-so did this, that they don’t think it’s right, and it ends up being a sin. Is it my duty to go tell them, or should I just let leadership know because it’s not an actual sin against me?
SPEAKER 02 :
Right. Well, technically, Matthew 18, verses 15 through 17, is talking about someone who’s wronged you, and that would be probably if somebody has borrowed money and hasn’t paid you back, or they’ve gossiped about you and injured your reputation or done something that’s affected you directly. But you can be adversely affected by sins that affect the whole community of Christ. I mean, there are some people whose sins are so public and they are so scandalous that the whole name of Christ and the whole body of Christ is scandalized by that, in which case you are affected. And I believe that anyone could initiate this. Because when you initiate this process, you’re not really doing anything extreme. You’re just talking to the person saying, hey, that was sin. That’s a private conversation you have. It’s like you could no doubt legitimately talk to anybody about any sin they’ve committed that you know about if you think it’s something they’re likely to keep doing or that they don’t know about. I mean, it’s a merciful thing to confront somebody about their sin if it appears that they don’t know they’re sinning. or that they don’t know that that’s an important thing for them to not do. Because, you know, any sin they continue to do is going to do damage, and they’ll have to answer for that damage to God on the day of judgment. So you’re doing them a favor if they don’t know they’re sinning, or they do but they don’t think it’s a very serious matter. For you to correct them about that is a very positive thing. It’s like disciplining an ignorant child when they’re doing something harmful to themselves. You know you discipline your child, and that’s why this is called church discipline It’s when somebody is going the wrong way, and they don’t seem to have a good sense to stop doing it well if you love them You want to help them? See that there’s something to stop so I don’t think it has to be only sins that are against you the specific instructions are for you to deal with someone who’s injured you and And no doubt the reason for it is that instead of gossiping about them, instead of spreading slander, instead of ruining their reputation because they’ve done something wrong, you go to them privately. You get it settled. If they are of a mind to repent, then no one else ever needs to hear about it. You shouldn’t gossip or shouldn’t slander, shouldn’t do anything. Just let it go. Just forgive them. If they don’t see it and they don’t repent, well then, then it becomes something that they’re going to be harder to convince. So you bring two or three witnesses with you, Jesus said, so that in the mouth of two or three witnesses, every word will be established. So that they will now know, okay, you weren’t just giving your own opinion. Here’s three Christians here. and preferably ones that are respectable Christians who see it this way, maybe I really am wrong. Maybe I should repent. And if they won’t see it then, then Jesus said, take it to the church. And if he won’t listen to the church, then let him be like a pagan to you. So it comes down to it, eventually if they don’t repent, they’re treated like a non-Christian. They’re not part of the church anymore. That’s called excommunication in many circles or disfellowshipping or church discipline. Now, the thing is, any sin that any Christian commits could end up in church discipline, but it doesn’t have to because if people are Christians, they don’t want to be sinning. Now, Christian sin, I’ve heard people say, you know, if we exercise church discipline, we don’t have to kick everybody out. That’s nonsense. You might as well try to understand the scripture rather than make jokes about it. The truth is, most Christians will repent before they get to the point of being kicked out of the church. In fact, if they’re real Christians, most people will repent the first time you tell them that they’ve done something wrong. You know, because Christians don’t want to do stuff wrong. When Christians sin, if they are real Christians, their heart doesn’t want to sin. They want to obey God. That’s what a Christian is, somebody who has a new heart with God’s law written on their heart. They want to repent. They just have blind spots. Well, you’re doing them a favor when you open their eyes and say, hey, what you did shouldn’t be done. And a real Christian, I would say if they’re real Christians, nine times out of ten, they’ll just repent when you talk to them privately, and that’s the end of it. No problem. If they are a little recalcitrant and won’t change, then it might take a little more confrontation. And if they’re so rebellious that even when the whole church is telling them they’re wrong, they say, well, you know, I’m not going to stop. Well, that’s when you exercise church discipline. So I think that would be legitimate if you know about any sin in the church. But, of course, it says in Galatians chapter 6 and verse 1, Brethren, if any of you are overtaken in a fault, you who are spiritual, restore such a one in the spirit of meekness, considering yourself, lest you also be tempted. So the idea is if you see someone sinning in the church, restore them. Notice when you confront them, it’s the mind to restore them. It’s not… It’s not a gotcha kind of situation where I’m better than you. I know you’re a bad person. I’m a righteous person. I can badmouth you. No, it’s I want to restore you. I want you to be able to be clean before God and man. And so I’m here to restore you. But who’s supposed to do it? It says you who are spiritual. Well, frankly, everybody should be spiritual in the church. Some are not. But the ones who are spiritual are the ones that Paul says are the ones who should go to that person, restore them, but they should do so with meekness, realizing that they may be the next person that’s to be confronted. You know, considering yourself, lest you also be tempted, he says. So the body of Christ should be a community of people who are concerned about the sanctity of the body itself and of every member in it. And every true convert… And by the way, there’s a lot of people listening to me who call themselves Christians who might say, well, I don’t think that’s me. Well, I’m going to make the statement anyway. Everyone who’s truly converted has decided they want to follow Jesus obediently. Because that’s what conversion is. The word convert means change. And that’s what changes. Before you’re a Christian, you’re not interested in following Jesus obediently. When you’re converted, it means you’ve changed your mind about that. You’ve repented. You are now determined to follow Jesus’ obedience. You want to. That’s in your heart to do. But you’re not perfect, and so you’re going to make mistakes. And so we help each other. If you see somebody who’s really, you know, not doing what they’re supposed to do, you go to them humbly, meekly, tell them about it. And, you know, if they really love the Lord and want to do what’s right, that is if they’re really a Christian. they’ll say, oh, I’m so sorry, terrible. Unless they don’t agree with you that it’s a sin. They might be able to say, well, wait, you might think that it’s a sin, but actually there’s details here you don’t know about, and I wasn’t really doing the wrong thing. You might yourself end up coming around to their way of seeing it, if they’ve got a point. But if they don’t, and they resist repentance, they’re starting to give evidence that they may not really be a follower of Christ at all. But you still give them the benefit of the doubt until it comes to that level where the whole church tells them they’re wrong and they still won’t believe it. So we should be in each other’s lives more than we are. Almost everybody knows someone in the church who’s probably sinning and they haven’t said a word to them. And, you know, you say, should we tell the church leadership about it if it’s not against me? Maybe. Maybe so. I mean, it is possible that you don’t have the kind of relationship with the person if you’re in a church that you don’t really know everybody. But you learn that somebody is sinning and they don’t even know you very well. They might not be very open to you as they might be to a pastor or an elder who would do it. You might talk to them. The idea is not to intimidate them or anything like that, but just to open their eyes to what they’re doing and then find out how they react to it when they realize they’ve done wrong. If they’re godly, they’ll repent. The ones who will not repent are the ones who don’t belong in the church. Okay, Steve.
SPEAKER 05 :
Thank you. I really appreciate it. God bless you.
SPEAKER 02 :
Okay, Mike. Thanks for your call. Good talking to you. All right. Our next caller is, let’s see, Frank from Omaha, Nebraska. Frank, welcome.
SPEAKER 08 :
Yes. I’d like your take on, I think it’s Mark 11, about having faith as a grain of mustard seed and casting this mountain into the sea. Yeah. Mark 16, about laying hands on people and helping them.
SPEAKER 02 :
Okay. Well, in Mark 11, where Jesus is talking about prayer and having faith, he says in verse 22, Jesus answered and said to them, have faith in God. And he goes on, for surely I say to you, whoever says to this mountain, be removed and be cast into the sea. and does not doubt in his heart, but believes that those things which he says will come to pass, he will have whatever he says. Therefore I say to you, whatsoever things you ask when you pray, believe that you receive them, and you will have them. Now this is a very popular verse among the word of faith people, because they basically say, if anything you believe, if you fully believe it, and you confess it, You know, you’re activating the law of faith, which is as sure as the law of gravity. And, you know, it’s going to happen. And so, I mean, these people would say anything that you can make yourself believe enough. it’ll happen for you if you have enough faith. Of course, since there’s all kinds of things that you can’t make happen that way, they just say, well, shame on you. You don’t have enough faith. But that’s missing Christ’s point. First of all, Jesus does seem to say here, anything you pray for if you have faith, you’ll have it if you have enough faith. But this is not the whole teaching of Christ about prayer. There’s lots of aspects of the teaching about prayer. And Christ does not expect that any one statement he makes is to be taken to the exclusion of other things he says on the same subject. There’s a holistic biblical teaching about prayer, and this is part of it. It’s not the whole of it. For example, the Bible says, Jesus said in John 15, he said, you know, if you abide in me and my word abides in you, you will ask what you will. And it’ll be done to you. I believe that’s verse 7, John 15, 7. If you abide in me and my word abides in you, you’ll ask what you will, and it’ll be done to you. Okay, well, that’s not unconditional. There’s conditions stated if you abide in him and if his word abides in you. The idea being, if you are so full of the word of God and it’s so intermeshed with who you are and what you’re thinking like, Well, then you’ll be able to pray for things that you see the need to pray for, that you think are right to pray for, and they will be done. Well, one of the things involved there is that if his word is abiding in you and you’re abiding in him, this is going to mean that the things you actually pray for, generally speaking, they’ll be very agreeable with his will because you’re shaping your thoughts by what he says and what he prefers. You can’t just say, well, I want a Winnebago. I can’t afford one, but I’m going to confess it. I heard of someone who went to an RV dealer, and they laid their hands on a Winnebago and said, Lord, I claim this in the name of Jesus. This is mine. Well, it wasn’t theirs. It never became theirs, as it turned out. Some people just think you can just ask for what you want to, and if you have enough faith, it’s going to happen. Well, that’s not all that’s said about it. For example, John said in 1 John chapter 5, this is the confidence that we have that if we ask anything according to his will, he hears us. And if we know that he hears us, we know that we have the petitions we’ve decided. So it’s made very clear. If our prayers are according to his will. James said, you ask and do not receive anything. Because you ask with bad motives that you may consume it upon your desires. Okay, so there’s things you pray for and you don’t get, James said. And he indicated that you shouldn’t expect that you will. Because your motives are wrong in prayer. I mean, obviously, there’s a lot of things the Bible says about prayer. And when you take them together, you just realize that we are being encouraged to come to God about things that we believe are consonant with his will. believing that he listens to us, because he does. Believing that we can come to him in the name of Christ, that is, with the authorization of Christ. And we can bring such petitions to him as Christ himself would be inclined to make to him. And we can believe that he accepts our petitions, and if they’re according to his will, that we’ll have them answered. These are the things that are said in this statement in Mark 11. Indicates we have to have that kind of faith. But it’s not taken by itself. This is the only thing in the whole Bible about prayer. We think, oh, I can just go around and ask for anything. And if I crank up my faith knob high enough and start feeling, you know, this is definitely going to make myself psyched up to it. Well, there’s a promise I’ll have it. No, you’ve got to take – Jesus didn’t come with a little box of Bible promises, and you can pick one out each day and take that as your promise for the day. He taught a holistic teaching about a relationship with God in which we’re his children. He’s our father. He’s got our concerns on his heart, and we’ve got his concerns on mine. And part of that relationship includes our interaction with him where we make requests and he answers them. It’s not the only part of our relationship. uh, relationship, but, but Jesus came to teach the whole, the whole picture of a relationship with God. And, and, uh, he did so in, uh, you know, individual points on different occasions, but the people he’s talking to are his disciples who happen to be with him on the occasions where he makes all the other points too. And he expects them to, to, to take the whole picture and not just one thing like this, where proof texting is what some people do, um, when they want the Bible to say something that they want it to say, and you really could not exegete Scripture very well to get it to agree with them, but you just take one verse and say, well, this says that. That’s called proof texting. Lots of people support their whole theology. Here’s a verse here that says something that sounds like what I want to say. Here’s one over in this book that says something I want to say. Here’s another one. They find, you know, a handful of verses that each say something that sounds like something they want to say. But they’re doing no exegesis. They’re not paying attention to context. They’re not taking the holistic picture. They’re just using the Bible as a, I don’t know, like a pile of fortune cookies with, you know, promises in them. But, no, the purpose of the New Testament is to reveal, and the purpose of Jesus is to reveal to us what a relationship with God consists in, including prayer and other things. But you’ve got to take the whole picture, because he’s not teaching people in sound bites. He’s teaching… He’s teaching something holistic for those who want to be followers of Christ. Now, you mentioned Mark 16, and I assume we mentioned laying on of hands, so I assume you’re referring to verse 17 and 18, especially 17. It says, and these signs will follow those who believe. In my name they will cast out demons, they will speak with new tongues, they will take up serpents, and if they drink anything deadly, it will by no means hurt them, they will lay their hands on the sick, and they will recover. Now, there’s two things we need to say about this. These verses are in what’s called the Long Ending of Mark. The Long Ending of Mark is verses 9 through 20. Many of the older… All the older manuscripts lack these verses. The oldest manuscripts we have of Mark do not have verses 9 through 20. And the belief of most Bible scholars is that Mark didn’t write those verses and that they were added from some source later, that some later copyist inserted those verses and they weren’t originally part of the Gospel of Mark. Now, there are people who disagree with that. There are some people who say there’s some evidence in the old Syriac translations and the old Latin translations and quotations by Irenaeus that those verses actually were in the original. And so there’s dispute about it. All I can say is those verses, it’s been disputed whether they were originally part of the Gospel of Mark or not. On the assumption that they were, since we don’t know for sure that they weren’t, what is it saying? These signs will follow those who believe. And it lists some things. They’ll cast out demons. They’ll speak in tongues. They’ll take up serpents, apparently harmlessly. They’ll drink poison without dying. And they’ll lay hands on the sick and they’ll recover. Some people have thought this is like a mandate, they think, for Christians. If you’ve got faith, those who believe will do these things. So if you’re a Christian, you better go out and find some rattlesnakes. Better go out and find some poison. Yeah, better go lay hands on all the sick people, you know, and cast out demons and speak in tongues or else you’re just not, you don’t have faith because Jesus said these things will fall to those who believe. I believe that they’re making a mistake. First of all, the Bible does not indicate that every Christian, even in the book of Acts, picked up serpents. We don’t know of any of them that drank poison. Some of them cast out demons and some of them laid their hands on the sick and they recovered and a lot of them prayed in tongues. So a lot of these things, but not all of them, are seen happening in the book of Acts, but even the ones that do happen in the book of Acts are not seen to be practiced by everybody. The only one we know who was bit by a dangerous snake and was not harmed was Paul. We don’t read of anyone drinking poison. The apostles did cast out demons and lay their hands on the sick, and probably some other people did too, like Stephen and Philip. But the point is, This is not saying, here’s the marching orders for every believer. Go do these things. What is it saying, though? It’s right after the statement in verse 15 and following. It says, he said to them, go and preach to all the world. Preach the gospel to every creature. He who believes and is baptized will be saved. He who does not believe will be condemned. And these signs will follow those who believe. Now, he’s saying you go out to the world and you preach to everybody. There’s going to be people who believe and there’s people who won’t believe. The ones who don’t believe, they’ll be damned. The ones who do believe, they’ll be saved. And those who believe, which I take to be the community of the believers, the collective of those who believe, the church, among those who believe, these signs will be seen. This is the kind of thing that will happen in the believing community. And this is especially true on the frontiers of evangelism. We see more of this kind of thing in the mission field than you see in the established churches. And that’s partly because it’s a cutting edge. These are signs for unbelievers who have never heard the gospel before to demonstrate them this is a message from God. And some people will do these things. Not every believer will do all of them. But those who believe, I take to be The church, the community of believers, among the believers you will see signs like this. Not in every church and not every person, but certainly speaking in tongues. That was seen in more than one place in the book of Acts. Casting out demons, very common on the mission field. Praying for the sick and being healed, that’s not very uncommon either. on the mission field, and in some churches too, even in America. But for the most part, these are things that the believing community will see that kind of thing happening in them. Now, if we don’t see any of those things happening in any of our churches, we might wonder if there’s something wrong. Or we might just assume, we might be one of those people who say, well, these verses don’t belong in the Gospel of Mark, like some people do. But if we believe they do, it doesn’t mean that everyone who is a believer, will do all of these things. It means there will be supernatural attestation in these kinds of signs and wonders when the gospel is preached to every creature throughout the world. Among the believers, such things will be seen. And the book of Acts indicates that too. Again, the list is not necessarily exact. I think it’s basically saying there will be this kind of supernatural stuff going on to be a sign that the gospel is true. And that has proven to be the case historically. Not every church obviously has these things, but it certainly happened in the early centuries of the church. It happens in many churches today. Like I said, it mostly happens on the mission field. That’s where you hear most of the stories about this. But anyway, that’s what I think about those verses. I appreciate your call. Let’s talk to Cecilia in San Diego, California. Welcome to the Narrow Pass, Cecilia.
SPEAKER 06 :
Hi, Steve. Can you hear me?
SPEAKER 02 :
Uh-huh.
SPEAKER 06 :
Okay, I can barely hear you. Okay, first of all, thank God for what you do. God bless you for what you do, you and your staff. A couple of days ago, I was having a Bible study with some fellow Christians, and we were talking about worrying, you know, when you worry about stuff. And I know it says it in the Bible several times, you know, not to worry. But one of the people that was in the Bible study with me, she said that worrying is a sin. And so I want to know, is worrying, is that really considered an actual sin? And I’ll take your answer off the air.
SPEAKER 02 :
Okay. Yes, we can consider it a sin if a person is what we’d call a worrier. I don’t think it’s wrong to experience a moment’s worry if you, for example, if you’re waiting for somebody to show up and they’re in a dangerous situation and you haven’t heard from them and they’re not there on time. I can see having some sense of anxiety about that, about being worried until you find out something. But worrying as a way of life would be wrong. Now, see, the Bible also says don’t be angry. The Bible says don’t fear. But there are times when we feel fear and we feel anger. And there’s times it’s even legitimate to feel it. But like the Bible says, be angry but don’t sin. Don’t let the sun go down on your anger. Okay, so you’re not supposed to be angry. But sometimes you will be angry, and sometimes it will be legitimate. Even Jesus was angry on more than one occasion. The Bible speaks of it. And so, I mean, it’s not always a sin to be angry, but it’s a sin to be an angry person. It’s not a sin to be afraid if a tiger walks into the room and be afraid enough to be smart and get out of there, out of its way. But to live your life in fear is definitely a sin. I don’t think it’s wrong to be worried in moments where you know that somebody you care about is in danger or something really bad is happening to people and your friend’s in the danger area and so forth, to be concerned about them, to be anxious about them. I mean, honestly, I don’t think there’s anything evil about that, but to be a worried person, and there are people who are worriers, is simply to be a person who doesn’t trust God. Now, even in a moment of worry… Even if you’re not so much a worried person, but you’re worrying about somebody, the Bible says to cast all your cares on him, all your worries on God, because he cares for you. And you do that by basically, you know, praying about it. And that’s what it says in Philippians chapter 4, be anxious or worried about nothing, but in everything by prayer and supplication with thanksgiving, make your requests known to God and the peace of God. which passes understanding will keep your hearts and minds in Christ Jesus. Now, that being so, it means that, yeah, you will sometimes feel anxiety, but you should deal with it, not just wallow in it. You should say, okay, this bothers me. I’m worried. I’m anxious. I’m going to pray about this, and I’m going to trust God with it. And if we don’t do that, if we just live our lives not trusting God and worried instead, well, that’s wrong. When Jesus said, do not worry about tomorrow, he said, oh, you of little faith. And this is Matthew chapter 6. If you have great faith, you won’t worry much. And when you do worry, you need to start trusting God. But you first pray and then trust God. If you neglect that, yeah, I’d say it’s sinning. Not the worst in the world, but it’s still a sin. I’m out of time. Thanks for joining us.
