In this episode of Real Science Radio, hosts Fred Williams and Doug McBurney invite Dwayne Bartley, a passionate enthusiast of science, to delve into the controversial topic of settled science. They explore the fascinating findings of the James Webb Space Telescope, which is challenging long-held beliefs in the scientific community about the age and formation of galaxies. With engaging discussions and anecdotes, they examine how these discoveries support the biblical narrative and question the conventional wisdom of mainstream science.
We can kind of see the decay rate of all of the rings around Saturn. It cannot be billions of years old and still have those. That had to be recent.
SPEAKER 06 :
Scholars can’t explain it all away.
SPEAKER 1 :
Get ready to be awed by the handiwork of God. Tune in to Real Science Radio.
SPEAKER 06 :
Turn up the Real Science Radio. Keeping it real.
SPEAKER 03 :
Greetings to the brightest audience in the country. This is Real Science Radio. I’m Fred Williams.
SPEAKER 04 :
And I’m Doug McBurney, science geek, Bible student, amateur comedian. Fred, it is great to be back with you talking about real science on Friday.
SPEAKER 03 :
So today we have a great guest back with us, Dwayne Bartley. You were with us last October and we talked about The Dangers of Settled Science. And, you know, we really only scratched the surface with you, Duane, so we wanted to bring you back because this topic deserves a lot more justice than we gave it. So, again, it’s great to have you here in studio with Real Science Radio.
SPEAKER 05 :
I love it. Thanks for having me back. It’s been great. I was warned that both my wife and my daughter said that you two are a bad influence on me. Because you didn’t control my squirrel chasing at all.
SPEAKER 03 :
Well, we’ll see what we do about that this show. So we’ve got our squirrel catchers out there. Squirrel traps everywhere. There you go, squirrel traps.
SPEAKER 04 :
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER 03 :
Hey, before we get started, though, tonight at Rocky Mountain Creation Fellowship, Dr. Danny Faulkner will be presenting. We don’t know what his topic is. It’s kind of a mystery, but he will be there, and we’re looking forward to it. And not only that, which I think is even more exciting, the next night, Saturday night, Dwayne, you are hosting Dr. Faulkner. You’ve gone out and rented two real powerful telescopes. So all of those listening on KLTT AM 670 in Denver, it’s the lunchtime right now. You’re driving or you’re at work. Put it on your calendar and go to the website, youngearth.org, and you can get directions to Dwayne’s house. And just everybody pile on down there. They’ve got plenty of room. I’ve been there. It’s awesome. Yeah. It’s out towards, is it kind of Bennett, roughly? Yeah, kind of, not quite. It’s in Watkins. So it’s a little bit of a drive, but it’s nice, and they’ve got plenty of space out there, and they’re going to have two big telescopes. So if you want to go see Dr. Danny Faulkner and do a little bit of stargazing with someone who’s an expert about the stars, it would be great to have you join us.
SPEAKER 04 :
Yeah, wow, Watkins. Watkins is like the perfect place.
SPEAKER 05 :
They say it’s the middle of nowhere. It’s not the middle. The middle’s over there, but yeah.
SPEAKER 04 :
Yeah, right. Yeah.
SPEAKER 05 :
It was funny because they were looking for a place that doesn’t have a lot of light pollution. It was like, we don’t have a lot of people. It’s hard to have light pollution without those. So, yeah. Anyway, I’m totally jazzed. As a matter of fact, that’s kind of why my head has been orbiting around astronomy now for a month while we’re getting ready for Dr. Danny Faulkner getting here, and I’m really excited about it. Yeah. I just thought I would, you know, since you guys invited me back, I was like, I got a great idea. And since you have the brightest audience in the world, I thought we should talk about stars.
SPEAKER 04 :
Yeah. You know, speaking of stars, speaking of stars, I’ve been told things about stars since. I can remember back to about third grade and since you mentioned settled science, we hear all these things. We hear that term settled science. These are all wrapped up. They’re all decided. They’re all settled. If you have any questions about them, you’re obviously some kind of crazy conspiracy theorists because this is all settled science. And it seems to me I can document a lot of changes in the settled science just since Third grade, when I started hearing about all the settled science and examples keep streaming in every day as new data comes to light, the science changes. So how settled is all this stuff?
SPEAKER 03 :
And, Doug, just for our audience, let’s make sure when you say that you were thinking about a lot of stars, we’re not talking about Bob Denver, right, in Gilligan’s Island. We’re talking about stars in the universe. Well, yeah.
SPEAKER 05 :
Just want to make that clear. I mean, some of them are very spacey, but that is not what we’re here for.
SPEAKER 04 :
No, I don’t think I even, I wasn’t allowed to talk about Gilligan’s Island in third grade. That was considered fooling around.
SPEAKER 05 :
Once again, you guys realize we are dating ourselves. We’re old. Look it up.
SPEAKER 04 :
But what about all this settled science and all this? Help me out.
SPEAKER 05 :
Here’s an epic idea. How about we start at the beginning? Where do you start? Start at the beginning.
SPEAKER 04 :
I like it.
SPEAKER 05 :
So one of the things that I love that’s come about is the whole Big Bang Theory. There’s so much to it. But let’s base this off of one common statement. It’s like none of what I’m – well, most of what I’m talking about doesn’t come from the Christian side of science. It actually comes from the secular side of science. And I love – I spend a lot of time – reading the research papers and looking at what they’re doing. But the James Webb Space Telescope has almost literally taken the entire astronomy field and just turned it upside down and shaken it a lot. So one of the first really good photographs they got of some deep space shot, they put it up there and they looked at it. And they’re like, well, that can’t be. And I had to laugh. It’s like, wait a minute. You built the satellite. You launched it. You calibrated it. You put it in orbit. You talked to it. It sent you back this picture, and you said, that doesn’t work. It’s like, guys, and I hate to say this, but you have no one to blame but yourself.
SPEAKER 03 :
And that was settled science, right? It was.
SPEAKER 05 :
It very much was, and it’s kind of interesting when you get down to – The age of the known universe, 13.8 billion years, right? And the Earth is 4.3 billion.
SPEAKER 04 :
Oh, wait, wait. I thought it was 13.6.
SPEAKER 05 :
Well, see, we’re both behind because thanks to James Webb’s telescope, now it’s – well, they haven’t settled on it, but it’s somewhere in the vicinity of 26 because – I’m going to go through this and I hope I got something to show you guys. But if you remember the little funnel of the Big Bang Theory, they do this depiction, right? And you see this bright star in one corner and it expands out and then it It goes along and it bells out at the very end. Oh, yeah. It says 0.0, the beginning of the universe, the Big Bang. And over here is, on that one, 13.8 billion years, right? And you look at that and you go, okay. So the rational person that doesn’t usually deal with logarithmic charts says the middle of it should be 6 billion years, roughly. Six and a half, almost seven, right? Yeah. No, not at all. If you actually understand it, and I have tried to calculate how they came up with it, but if you look at every segmentation, it’s not even logarithmic. I can’t get an equation that will meet the curvature. But nerd out for a minute. The center of that graph is about 20 minutes. 20 minutes of time. 20 minutes of time halfway down that chart. And it talks about first subatomic particles and then all subatomic particles are formed. At about 20 minutes. And the universe is roughly 80% of the size it is today at 20 minutes. Now, that’s the point I stop and I go, hold on. So it is irrational to believe that a God created the universe and everything in it in six days. But it’s okay if it’s 80% of its size and all of the particles are made in 20 minutes. Yeah. I don’t mean to point fingers, but so, yeah, I, you know, and that’s one of the biggest things they go into. Here’s the problem. And the really fascinating part for me was that they talk about for stars. That is a whole squirrel and I want full credit. I’m not chasing that one. Right. But how stars formed. or not how, well, how stars formed is very interesting. There’s a lot of good astrophysicists out there. They’re like, we can’t explain the first one, but after you get the first one, then you can explain all the rest. Yeah.
SPEAKER 03 :
Yeah. We got it down after that. How do you make a million dollars? Well, first you need a million dollars.
SPEAKER 05 :
Now I have a daughter who liked horses. Do you know how to make a million dollars? Start with a billion dollars. Anyway, exactly. So what’s fascinating about that chart is I, took it, and I actually made it linear instead of logarithmic, right? And if you look at the first galaxy’s form, it’s roughly around 9 billion years ago. right? You go, okay. Well, and then James Webb comes along and he says, no, no, James Webb found, oh, and I didn’t write it down. This is old data because James Webb keeps finding newer and newer stuff. But this one, it found one that the universe was just 300 million years old when the first galaxy formed based on how they measure it. Oh, hold on. So before the first galaxy formed about 3 billion years after the Big Bang, and now it’s 300 million years. That’s not a trivial error. That’s orders of magnitude. Wait, no, no. We were just a little off.
SPEAKER 04 :
Fred, if you laugh at that, that means you’re not very smart.
SPEAKER 03 :
Or scientific. Yeah, I read some of your comments. I cannot dispute, I cannot challenge settled science. No, I can’t do that. In fact… Let’s play this clip from smoking to grass Tyson right now.
SPEAKER 02 :
So that when you are college educated and some institution has declared you graduated and a learned member of society, if you turn around and say, I choose not to believe this emergent scientific consensus,
SPEAKER 04 :
Uh, no, you don’t have that option. No, not only can you not question settled science, Fred, when you laugh, that’s their key to look down at you as if you’re some sort of moron because you laughed, but they did. And they act like the only reason you laugh is because you’re too dumb to understand how their exponential error actually points to them figuring out the settled science.
SPEAKER 03 :
Yeah, exactly. And they’ll say that my studio is in Arkansas. It’s not. We’re in Colorado.
SPEAKER 05 :
Yeah, I’m fully behind that. It’s so many pathways you can take on that. But yeah, settled science. What’s funny is they can’t. or you were settled science. I mean, look at in archeology, Dr. Mary Schweitzer was, she almost lost her career over her thing. And then, um, Oh, forgive me. The guy who found the Missoula flood, he was another one that the only reason we finally accepted his stuff is because he outlived all of his detractors and the young students went, you know, that guy’s got a point. And now all of a sudden everyone went, yes, it’s true. So it’s funny back to what we were saying about how far does it move things? If you’ve got the whole graph and, It moves the first galaxies from about a third of the way across to just off of the Big Bang. And you’re like, there is so much to that going like, wait a minute, galaxies couldn’t have formed until way over here. Hey, but we found one. And based on its age, it has to be right there.
SPEAKER 03 :
There, and that’s a problem. Yeah, so what they’re finding is fully formed galaxies way early in the universe. They weren’t supposed to find those. They were supposed to find them like as infant babies. Yeah, clouds. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, right. They’re finding fully formed galaxies. From spirals to, yeah, all kinds of them. With the spiral arms that they can’t explain those either, you know. But anyways, that’s another squirrel. Oh, yeah, that’s, see? Yeah, yeah. So, yeah, just so the audience knows, the James Webb Telescope has been a great friend of creationists. We predicted what it would find. It would find these codger old galaxies back where they say the Big Bang started. And it totally contradicts their paradigm. Yep. And it totally fits the biblical narrative.
SPEAKER 05 :
It just popped into my head. This is like the Wizard of Oz. Pay no attention to the book behind the curtain. We’ve already settled this. We’re just resettling it. What cracked me up is I was like, wait a minute. I had looked up, you know, that silly Big Bang and the funnel and all that stuff. I looked it up and it was like, the one I looked at was Age of the Universe. I’m like, that… That doesn’t look like they solved it. After James Webb Space Telescope found that, they solved it. And now the middle of the graph is three minutes. So apparently that 17 minutes makes all the difference in the universe. Anyway.
SPEAKER 03 :
You know, there’s the thing with settled science. You know, smoking the grass, I’m sure the next thing he’ll say is, well, you know, that’s the beauty of science. It progresses and we learn things and we change things. That’s the other thing that they’ll pull out all the time. It’s like, well, doesn’t that contradict your settled science?
SPEAKER 04 :
Hello? Hello? No, Fred, if you point that out to them, that means you’re not very smart. Yeah. Keep that in mind. Anytime you contradict or catch them in an obvious lie or something utterly hypocritical, it means you’re not very smart.
SPEAKER 05 :
right yeah and it’s not a lie it was just a a new learning thing if i’d have tried that when i was a kid did you lie no i was learning so now you’re still getting beat but you know in all of this i always go back when i do presentations on this i go back to romans 1 22 and 23 professing themselves to be wise they became fools and this is the bad thing this is what triggers me right the The one thing that always irritates me is when science tries to say this is settled, they’re destroying the imagination and the creativity of our younger generations. We need those kiddos, right? I mean, it’s like at some point I’m either going to take up skydiving and not make it or we’re going to not be here. And it’s the next generation. And when you tell them, when you tell a young child, it’s like, no, we already know how this happened. is light a particle or wave? I’m sorry.
SPEAKER 03 :
And you know, kids will look up to their teachers and you know, I know I was lied to for, I thought dinosaurs were millions of years old till I was about age 30 when I looked into it because the encyclopedias are never wrong. My teachers aren’t right. That’s what kids think growing up. And, You know, it’s one of the dangers, frankly, of public schools, too, because they can brainwash and teach their paradigm, and so many people buy into it, and then you just look at where society is today, and a lot of it, to me, goes back to taking God out of the schools and having public schools in the first place. That’s our position at Real Science Radio. If you’ve got kids in public schools, do yourself a favor.
SPEAKER 05 :
Get them out. I mean, our daughter went to public school, but when she came home was when the real… Yeah. Yeah. Lessons, you know, it’s like we’d go through everything. So you can do it. It’s not, you know, it’s not like they will do everything.
SPEAKER 04 :
Flee, flee, run, run as fast as you can. Even if you have to drop your Bible to run faster, run away.
SPEAKER 05 :
Buy a new one when you get to your destination, right?
SPEAKER 04 :
Yeah, that’s right. We’ll have one waiting for you. Anyway, go.
SPEAKER 05 :
Go ahead. So yeah, that’s what triggers me is it’s like, if you take away the curiosity and the imagination of those kids going like, no, you don’t need to research that. We already know it. And here, I’m not going to tell you how to think. I’m going to tell you what to think. And that always sets me off. It’s like, some of the greatest things that ever led me down the career path I have in engineering and all this stuff. Was that those questions and not somebody not going here, don’t study that bunk. We’re done with this moving on. And it’s like, well, wait a second.
SPEAKER 04 :
Wait a second, Dwayne. Wait, wait, wait. Before we get to dinosaurs, I’m going to challenge you on that because in Hail to Grass Tyson, he says that that’s what we’re doing when we tell kids don’t think about any of that. God did it. That’s what they accuse us of doing. So how do we defend ourselves against that accusation?
SPEAKER 05 :
Well, okay, I would have to divide people at this line, and it’s like, My brother and his family, I chased down the nerd world, right? And they’re not. And I can glaze over their eyes in less than 15 minutes, right? And they are of the opinion of God said it. I believe it. That settles it. And you know what? There’s nothing wrong with that perspective.
SPEAKER 04 :
Yeah, you could even leave out the I believe it part.
SPEAKER 05 :
Well, and then there’s people that are just scientifically curious, right? And they’re like, okay, there’s got to be more to it. Hey, and the Bible says right in it, it’s like, it is the glory of God to conceal a thing and is the honor of men and kings to discover that thing. There you go, brother. That’s what I love to do, right? And there’s a lot of people, it’s like somebody I once worked with brought up something. I was like, do you know why it does that? And they’re like, no. I like the fact that it’s a mystery. Leave it alone. I don’t want to know. And he ran away.
SPEAKER 04 :
That’s exactly it, Dwayne, is that it is one of the reasons God created us. And it’s right there in the beginning of the Bible. When someone accuses me of… brainwashing kids with God, I like to point to the story in Genesis in the Garden of Eden where the first thing God did was see what Adam would call the animals. God actually created us to discover, explore, and discover His creation and figure it all out. That was part of who we are and what this whole thing is about. And explaining to children the reality of where it all came from is actually helpful in starting them out in the right direction as they explore.
SPEAKER 03 :
I agree. And we like to say, you know, think critically. If you take anything away from this show, look at all sides so that you can make an informed decision. It’s like the Bereans, you know, they searched the scriptures to prove that these things were so. We don’t want you just to take our word for it either. And occasionally, it’s very, very rare, but we occasionally make mistakes like some on a few of the interesting facts. But that happens. But we want you to think critically, bottom line.
SPEAKER 05 :
Yeah. And I mean, that is the danger of today’s school. It’s like they tell you what to think instead of how to think. And when I do my classes, I have to spend a fair amount of time thinking. Teaching critical thought. And it’s not intuitive. It’s not like you’re stupid because you can’t think critically. It is hard. And in my world, doing failure analysis in the engineering level, it’s really hard to think critically and go like, is there anything else that can contribute? Take in every single side. Learn stuff that you did not go to college for. And now I have to go back to college to learn that so I can aspect. But anyway, it was funny. You brought up about the animals, right? God created them all and Adam got to name them all. Yeah. You can’t tell exactly which order he named them in, but you can get there. Cause God said, look, I created all these and you have to name it. So he started out with, you know, like elephant, giraffe, rhinoceros. You can tell when he got to the end too. Oh, he probably crossed a ridgeline and then there’s the whole line of animals. Oh no, I’m going to be here all day. Dog, cat, rat, bat. Yeah.
SPEAKER 03 :
that’s pretty good well so this speaking of interesting fact this is probably a good time to throw in the interesting fact of the week oh no this one won’t be i don’t think it’s i’m not gonna try and answer it this time this one isn’t tough you got it you’ve got like seven choices basically primary oh good okay so doug are you ready for the interesting fact
SPEAKER 04 :
I’m ready, Freddy.
SPEAKER 03 :
All righty. So here is the interesting fact of the week. What is the first primary color that a newborn baby sees?
SPEAKER 04 :
The first primary color. Primary color. Well, so first of all, Fred, I would have to remember what are the primary colors. So this, I want to file a… Just a color, the color that you know. No, I’m filing an official complaint that you asked me a two-part question when you know that usually I can’t even get through the one-part question.
SPEAKER 05 :
How did you not get ROYGBIV?
SPEAKER 04 :
The first primary color that a child sees, I’m gonna go for the obvious, because it’s the first one, Fred, red.
SPEAKER 03 :
I was gonna give you a clue. It’s the button I usually get to hit, this red button here, where it goes. But that’s not it. You actually are correct. I get to hit the green button.
SPEAKER 04 :
So whoever came up with the RGB scale, is it RGB? No.
SPEAKER 05 :
Roy G. Biv, Red, Orange, Yellow, Green, Blue, Indigo, and Violet.
SPEAKER 03 :
Correct. Yeah, RGB is when you think. That’s a good segue into Real Science Radio’s first ever book is coming out soon, Jesus, Right, and Design. We’re going to have a hardcover version, paperback. We expect copies start arriving by the end of this month. And if you’ve pre-ordered Walt Brown’s ninth edition, you will get this book thrown in for free. You’ll get the hardcover version. You’ll get that thrown in with the ninth edition. And by the way, we announced this last week, the ninth edition was delayed, unfortunately, but we have good word that it’s being printed right now, right, Doug? And we’re expecting it in mid-June.
SPEAKER 04 :
Mid-June, yes, that is the latest. Speaking of facts that tend to shift, the publication of the 9th edition has been an interesting adventure, but you know what it is? It’s just more evidence that we live in a fallen world and we all need Jesus to save us from ourselves. Absolutely. But we’re almost there, at least with the 9th edition. Again, we’ll throw in this extra book for you. For the long wait, we apologize.
SPEAKER 05 :
Ooh, okay, one squirrel. But I’m going to stay with this squirrel, and we’re going to track this, right? Okay. Bringing up red light. It is, I don’t know if you guys know this, it is one of the primary methods they use. Red light is one of the primary things they use to determine distance of celestial objects.
SPEAKER 04 :
Yeah.
SPEAKER 05 :
Have you ever heard of redshift?
SPEAKER 04 :
Yes. Yeah, I have heard of that, but I’ve always been a little fuzzy on how that works.
SPEAKER 05 :
Well, I picked one. I get one. This one’s all mine. All right. So redshift, I mean, in short, what it means is, you know, they talk about the fabric of space-time, and as light is traveling and the fabric of space-time is expanding, like they say the universe does, then it actually extends or stretches the wavelength. As you stretch any given wavelength, basically as it gets longer and the waves get further, you’re shifting towards the red. Now, interesting nerd fact, there’s also blue shift on things that are moving towards us really quickly. We actually see their colors shift towards the blue. Now, I won’t go in depth on how this works, but just know if there were an orange star out there and we look at it and say, no, I’m guaranteeing you that that is red. Sort of how it works. You can actually determine the wavelength of particular atoms, and you can run it through a prism, like your book shows, and you can break it up into its individual component wavelengths, right? And what they looked at was basically hydrogen produces these five absorption lines. And they went, wait, that’s a star. It burns hydrogen. That’s the rules. That’s just what it works on. It doesn’t work off calcium. It doesn’t work off plutonium. It’s hydrogen. But they would look at it, and they would break down the wavelength, and they would be shifted… So it’s got five absorption lines, but they’re not at the same frequency as the ones when we look at our sun. And they’re like, so it shifted to the red. Okay. The greater the shift, the more space it traveled through that stretched, and therefore, the greater the red shift. So you go, that’s good science. I mean, that’s, again, I have to say from the last time, it’s like we’re not knocking the science. There’s excellent science out there, and they’re brilliant scientists. And this is one where the science is good, but here’s an interesting one. W.G. Tiff in 1937 said, wait a minute, redshift, we determine how far things are away from each other. And he got upset at what later became the catalog, like the Sears catalog, of redshift anomalies. And there’s a lot of them.
SPEAKER 03 :
Yes.
SPEAKER 05 :
And what’s fascinating about it is both. Basically, as they discovered, the redshift is quantized. Now, what that means is it shifts. And I got a graph here that I’ll share with you guys. It means that if we just look at all the stars, we find a lot of stars at a given distance and a lot at another given distance. And it’s periodic. Every… So many… such and such wavelength, you’ll find a lot of stars at that. And so it’s this very stars are largely in this area. It doesn’t matter which way we look either. You can look all the way around the planet, 360 by 360. And you go, we’ve got these quantized red ships. Now what’s really cool to me is what that means is we’re in the center of the universe. Yes. That’s what it would lend itself to. And isn’t that a fascinating thought? Because here’s the reason I say that. So did some math on this, right? If you take, let’s imagine that you’re in this, what do they call those, nesting dolls, right? If you’re in a stack of nesting spheres, right? Park it in the middle and you go, measure to all of these stars. And it’s like, this first sphere is all this far away. And you go out to the next one, they’re all this far away. Now, take your measurement point that was in the center of all those spheres and just scooch it one direction. And they’d remeasure all the distances to all those stars. And now that graph of the distance to all the stars levels out and you just get everything all over. So if you move by just, what is it, 2 million light years, which galactically really doesn’t mean that much to move at 2 million light years. And everything shifts, which is kind of odd because that kind of means we, it would indicate that we may be in the center of the universe.
SPEAKER 03 :
Well, not us, but… Here’s a tease for you for the book, okay? Because we cover that. Oh! Yeah. But here’s a really interesting thing that Barry Satterfield stumbled onto, and we’re hoping others can confirm this. Those same quantized distances match electron orbit spacing. Have you heard about that? I have. So that could be, if that’s confirmed, I mean, that’s huge. That would be huge because then it can’t be a coincidence.
SPEAKER 05 :
Can’t be.
SPEAKER 03 :
And it would point to more of a plasma universe. And again, that would be a massive squirrel, bigger than any squirrel we’ve had in the show yet. So we won’t go there. Next time. It’s kind of a tease for the book that you get to read about both of these. So I know Dr. Humphreys was really good at documenting the quantized redshifts from other scientists. And he’s like, hey, wait a minute. If this is true, this is kind of showing we’re in the center of the universe. But anyways, it’s really interesting science.
SPEAKER 04 :
Well, gentlemen, before I allow you to move on, I am obligated to slap your wrists. Asserting that Earth might even be close to the center of the universe is one of the biggest intellectual faux pas one can make in public. It’s almost as bad as laughing as Neil and Hale the Grass Tysons. It’s almost that bad. It almost rises to the level of saying something negative about Bill Nye. Which I know neither one of you want to cross that line. I dare you.
SPEAKER 05 :
Dwayne, shut up.
SPEAKER 01 :
Stop the tape. Stop the tape. Hey, this is Dominic Enyart. We are out of time for today. If you want to hear the rest of this program, go to rsr.org. That’s Real Science Radio, rsr.org.
SPEAKER 06 :
Scholars can’t explain it all away.
SPEAKER 1 :
Get ready to be awed by the handiwork of God. Tune into Real Science Radio. Turn up the Real Science Radio. Keeping it real.
