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The episode also delves into an intriguing discussion on the practice of exorcism, the authority of Jesus, and the broader implications of spiritual warfare. Noteworthy themes also include a thoughtful debate on celebrating life versus mourning death, and an insightful interpretation of Revelation 12:11’s concept of overcoming. Lastly, Steve touches on the significance of the gospel in evangelism and the Kingdom of God, prompting a reevaluation of traditional notions about heaven and the role of faith.
SPEAKER 1 :
Thank you.
SPEAKER 02 :
Good afternoon and welcome to the Narrow Path radio broadcast. My name is Steve Gregg and we’re live for an hour each weekday afternoon taking your calls. If you have questions about the Bible you’d like to call in and talk about or about the Christian faith, about Christian history, Christian theology, Christian behavior, any of that stuff, or if you have a disagreement with the host and want to say so and say why, we welcome your calls today. Right now our lines are full but they do open up throughout the hour so Let me give you the number, and if you call in a few minutes, you may very well find a line has opened. The number is 844-484-5737. That’s 844-484-5737. All week I’m making this announcement because it has to do with this Saturday. Once a month in Southern California, we have a couple of meetings on the third Saturday of the month. And that’s coming up this Saturday. One of them is a men’s Bible study in the morning in Temecula. If you’re anywhere near Temecula, you may want to join us for that. Eight o’clock Saturday morning, just once a month. And that’s this Saturday. And I’m teaching a Bible study, which I do. I’ve been doing that for many years. Then in the evening, in another location, in Boyna Park in Orange County, California, We have a meeting that’s also once a month, and we go through a book of the Bible each time. Now, I guess I went through 1 Peter last time. We skipped because of the holidays. We generally speak and cancel the meetings during the holidays, and so it’s been a couple months. But I have to say I forgot what the last book we did was, and I thought it was 2 Peter. So I’ve been announcing we’re going to do 1 John, and that’s what we’re going to do because I’ve been announcing it. We’re going to do 1 John this time. But apparently the last time I did it, I only did 1 Peter, which means I have yet to do 2 Peter, and we’ll do that, I guess, after the next month. So we’ll do 1 John this month, and we’ll do 2 Peter the following month. So very little out of order. First time we’ve done that, but it’s just because of my forgetfulness. Anyway, we’ve been doing this thing through the Bible for probably five years or six years, but we only do it once a month, so it takes forever. Anyway, that’s happening this weekend. If you want to join us for that on Saturday, either the morning or the evening gathering, go to our website, thenarrowpath.com, and look under announcements, and you’ll see the place and time for those gatherings, and you can join us if you’re in the area. All right, we’re going to go to the phones now. and talk to JB in Tacoma, Washington. Hi, JB. Welcome.
SPEAKER 03 :
Hello, Steve. I have a question regarding how we should be praying when we are confessing our sins to the Father. It talks a little bit in 1 John 1.9. I was taught my whole life as a child, and now being 44, that I must list out my daily sins and repent. But I’ve just kind of been, you know, learning a lot about the Bible and the Word. And just recently I’ve learned that this could be more about repentance of our sinful nature as in the sinful state. Is there a need for us to continue our continuous repentance of this roller coaster of our actual actions?
SPEAKER 02 :
Well, I believe that the time will not come in our lifetime when we are totally exempt from sinning. We may have days and maybe series of days where we don’t have any sins that we’re aware of and we don’t have anything specifically to name out or confess. It’s only when we know of a sin that we’ve committed that I think that we would confess it. Although, of course… In the Lord’s Prayer, which Jesus designed to be prayed every day, and we know he did intend it to be prayed every day because one of the things is give us this day our daily bread. So each day we pray for our daily bread, and we also pray forgive us our debts or our sins as we forgive those who have sinned against us. Now, I take that to be a generic statement. Like, you know, I don’t know how much I may have sinned since, you know, since a lot of sins are very subtle. Sometimes I experience temptations and I don’t think I’ve sinned because temptation is not a sin. Sometimes temptations feel like sin. Sometimes you feel kind of dirty just for having had a temptation that you feel like you shouldn’t have. Obviously the devil uses that kind of thing to condemn you. But to me, I don’t know anything in the Bible that says we have to list out all of our sins every day. I think that if I’m convicted of a particular sin, of course I’m going to confess that and and basically apologize for that. Prayer is simply our relationship with God. It’s not like if you don’t confess a given sin, somehow you’re going to go to hell for that. You have a relationship with God based on abiding in Christ, and that doesn’t change unless you stop abiding in Christ. But you know, any number of sins that are committed are not enough to overcome the grace of God when you’re counting on Christ to save you. But on the other hand, it’s sort of like any number of ways I might offend my wife are not going to cause her to divorce me because she’s a Christian. I know people who call themselves Christians get divorced over the smallest things sometimes, and they can call themselves Christians if they want to. The question is whether God calls them that, and they’ll find out on the Day of Judgment But Jesus said lots of people say, not everyone, I mean, Jesus said, not everyone who says, Lord, Lord, will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he that does the will of my Father in heaven. So there’s a lot of people who are not really saved and do things they shouldn’t. But what I’m saying is my wife and I are followers of Christ, and that means we will not get a divorce. Now, that being so, I’m secure in the marriage, and so is she. But how many times can I offend her? How many times can I do things that she’s disappointed with me about or even angry about? Now, most of them, I don’t know those things because she doesn’t express any anger to me, so I don’t know if I did anything to make her angry. But I know this, that if I know I’ve done something, I apologize. Why? Well, because I have a relationship with her. If I know that there’s something that I did that’s I mean, anytime you have a relationship with somebody that matters to you, you’re going to apologize if you realize, wow, I wronged you. I offended you. Sorry about that. Forgive me. On the other hand, I may be unaware of a hundred little ways in the course of our marriage, which I’ve done things that were a disappointment to her that she never mentioned and it never occurred to me. And so I probably won’t end up confessing those. Now, we’re going to stay married forever. In any case, and this is like our relationship with God, we have a covenant, like a marriage covenant with God. And he’s not going to dump us because we offended him in some way, unless we dump him. I mean, there is such a thing as apostasy. If you depart from Christ, of course, all bets are off. But if you’re still trying to walk with Christ, and out of weakness, as James said, we all stumble many times, well… When you know you’ve stumbled, of course, just like when you know you’ve offended your wife, you apologize. You confess it to God. And that just clears the air. It doesn’t get you saved all over again. It doesn’t mean that you were lost until you did that or that if you die before you’ve confessed of your most recent sin that you’re going to hell. This is not what that’s about. This is about maintaining a relationship on good, you know, friendly terms and a loving thing to do. It’s just maintaining your connection with God. And, you know, I can be offended at someone to the point where I don’t want to speak to them for a while. It doesn’t mean I’m going to. And let’s say they’re my children. I’m not going to disown them for it. So God’s not going to disown you if you forget to, you know, confess some sin you’ve done. But you still want to, if you know about it, you want to confess it. You want to get the air cleared of it. You want to make it very clear to God that, That’s something you realize you didn’t and you wish you hadn’t and you’re sorry about it. So now, again, I do believe we should confess individual sins when we are convicted of them, when we’re aware of them. But we don’t have to worry that if we forgot something or never knew that something we did was a sin, that somehow, you know, if we don’t get around to confessing it specifically, that that’s going to be a problem with us on the day of judgment. I don’t think so. But, of course, when we pray every day, forgive us our trespasses or sins or debts, whichever translation you’re going to use. Well, we’re kind of covering all the bases. We’re saying, I recognize I may well have done some things today that are very offensive and imperfect things, sinful things. I don’t know what they all are, but I’m just asking you to forgive me for them all. And so, yeah, this idea of listing out all your sins, I don’t see that. Now, I used to read some devotional writers back from the Puritan days, and some of them recommended at the end of every night you should sit on your bed when you go to bed and review the day and try to think of all the things you’ve done wrong and confess them to God and clear the air that way. Well, I guess if you… I guess if you’ve been so busy that you haven’t been reflective at all, and it may be that you’ve done many sins that you just didn’t notice because you’re so busy, that might be a good way to recollect. But if you’re walking with Jesus, generally speaking, if you’re trying to follow Christ, I think the Holy Spirit will convict you of any sins that he wants you to confess. I was just reading something on Facebook today, and I’ve heard people say this on other radio programs, that you never have to confess your sins because when Jesus died, You know, he paid the price for all of our sins, past, present, and future, and therefore we never have to confess our sins. Yeah, but John apparently didn’t hear about that. He didn’t get that memo because he wrote 1 John 1.9, as you mentioned. And, of course, Jesus told us, when we pray, say, forgive us our sins. So it doesn’t sound like that doctrine, as often as I hear it from people, has a biblical basis.
SPEAKER 03 :
Yeah, that’s what I was going to kind of bring up to you next is I’ve heard a lot of people talk about Jesus’ sanctification was not enough for our continuous repetitiveness of like a confession of, you know, something that we’re struggling with, a certain sin, you know, if it’s like gossip or, you know, just judgmental, it’s just always continuous, repetitive, that people have said, well, Jesus’ sanctification was for that, for past, present, and future.
SPEAKER 02 :
They sometimes say, when Jesus died for your sins, all of your sins were future, because you weren’t even born yet 2,000 years ago. So he covered all your sins for your whole lifetime 2,000 years ago, so why would you ever have to confess? Well, that’s, to my mind, not a very well thought out argument. Because in that sense, he died for all the sins of all people 2,000 years ago, and no one ever has to repent. I mean, everyone’s saved because he died for all their sins. Well, no. They’d say, well, you have to come to Christ. You have to ask for forgiveness. Well, why? He already did it. I mean, he already died for your sins. Why would you have to ask? Well, because that’s how you acknowledge to God forgiveness. your intentions and your desire to please them and your sorrow for not doing so. And I think that continues to do as long as you have a relationship with anyone. Now, I realize that there’s a certain kind of teaching about this that I think sees salvation strictly as transactional. Like, you know, you’ve got money in the bank, you’re rich. All you have to do is acknowledge it and you’re good. But I don’t see it as merely transactional. Certainly there is a legal aspect, so to speak, of the payment of sin and all that. But our relationship with God is a lifetime interaction with God. And I think a lot of people don’t know that. Salvation isn’t simply a transaction that takes place when you go forward and say a sinner’s prayer or get baptized. salvation is a relationship, and relationships are maintained day by day, unless you don’t care about them. And if you don’t care about your relationship with Jesus, eventually you probably will depart from it, because you have to value him in order to maintain such a relationship, especially given the cost of it, of discipleship.
SPEAKER 03 :
Thank you, Steve. Appreciate it.
SPEAKER 02 :
Okay, JB. Thanks for your call. Good talking to you. All right. Peter from Bedford, UK. Hi, Peter. Welcome.
SPEAKER 10 :
Hi, Steve. I decided to move out of the city. You moved out of London? Yes.
SPEAKER 02 :
Where’s Bedford? Is that like a suburb?
SPEAKER 10 :
Is Bedford a suburb? No, it’s a small town on the outskirts. So, yeah, it’s much more peaceful. So… My question is, most of our information about casting out demons comes from the New Testament. And I was reading a scenario when the Pharisees were accusing the Lord of casting out demons by Beelzebub. And Jesus said to them that, oh, if I cast out demons by Beelzebub, by whom do your sons sin? I was just wondering, how did the Pharisees even practice exorcism when, I mean, the only thing I can think of in regards to the eyeball sort of revealing about perhaps… spiritual activity is just when Saul was being tormented by an evil spirit. So how did they actually practice it to do it?
SPEAKER 02 :
Yeah, we don’t know how non-Christians in the past or even in the present might have any ability to cast out demons. We do know that demons respect the name of Jesus and are fearful of the name of Jesus and if we are operating in as agents of Christ in his name, we have solid authority over them to command them to come out, and they’re required to do so. We know that because of the authority of Jesus. Now, we don’t know what other things short of the name of Jesus might also chase off demons. I don’t know. You know, it’s clear in the Old Testament we don’t have any exorcisms, per se, though when Saul was affected by the evil spirit and was kind of acting… crazy David’s music seemed to calm him down might have even made the evil spirit go away briefly I don’t know that not exactly an exorcism I don’t think but but uh you know just David of course his music was for the glory of God he didn’t know the name of Jesus but you know worshiping God had an impact on the demons and and we do know that the Pharisees uh did cast out demons some of them did um And there are some people in certain denominations we might not really respect very much that cast out demons occasionally. In fact, there are apparently witch doctors who on occasion manage to cast out demons. So in addition to the authority of Jesus, which is the one thing that the demons cannot ignore, there are apparently some spiritual practices that on occasions have been known to cause demons to go away. I wouldn’t count on any of them. Because, you know, frankly, demons sometimes can be stubborn. And even David’s music didn’t make the evil spirit go away from Saul permanently. It just gave him some relief. But remember, Jesus’ disciples came to him and said, Lord, we saw some people casting out demons in your name, and we told them to stop. And Jesus said, don’t tell them to stop. No one can cast a demon out in my name and soon speak evil of me, so let them do it. But who were these people? They weren’t followers of Christ, apparently. But they apparently believed in him at a distance, and they used his name, and it worked. On the other hand, the sons of Sceva in Acts chapter 19, they tried to cast out demons in the name of Jesus, whom Paul preaches, is the way they used the term. And the demons said, we know Jesus, we know Paul, but we don’t know you. So, you know, it didn’t work for them. It worked for some others. And obviously, Jesus said in Matthew 7 that many will say to him in that day, Lord, Lord, We cast demons out in your name and prophesied your name and did many mighty works in your name. And Jesus said, I’ll say to them, I never knew you. So there are people who don’t know him. You know, Jews, Pharisees, possibly people of other religions. You know, I don’t know. I don’t have a total catalog of all the cases of exorcism that have happened around the world throughout history. But I do know this, that missionaries have gone to uneventualized lands One of the common places of their reports are there are demon-possessed people that nobody seems to be able to help. The witch doctors can’t help them. Nobody can help them. And then a lot of times they go for the Bible man or the Bible woman to come to the village and do it. And the name of Jesus works every time. So, you know, the name of Jesus is definitely the… kryptonite against demons, but we don’t know that nothing else in any case can mitigate a demon’s influence or whatever. I mean, I’m not saying anything other than the name of Jesus brings salvation, but apparently there are people who don’t know Jesus who have been known to cast out demons, or at least who appear to. You know, when Jesus said, they will say, Lord, we cast out demons, your name, and he’ll say, I never knew you. There’s a possibility that they thought they cast out demons and they were mistaken, but that’s not – he doesn’t explain it. You know, it sounds – I mean, at face value, it sounds like they did, you know.
SPEAKER 10 :
Yeah, and I guess that’s what made Peter stand out is because he had authority, which that’s probably what it meant.
SPEAKER 02 :
Yeah, only Jesus has the authority. And I think sometimes people who use his name, even if they’re not Christians, perhaps sometimes have some results simply because the demons recognize the name of Jesus as something they cannot dishonor. Although, of course, the sons of Sceva were using the name of Jesus sort of in a second-hand way, and the demons didn’t respect them. But they did respect Jesus and Paul, but they just didn’t respect these guys. So anyway, there’s a lot of mystery about those things. There’s not any place in the Bible that gives a systematic teaching about demon possession or about exorcism. So all that we know, at least biblically, comes from anecdotes of Jesus and the apostles. There’s not really much teaching on the subject. And, of course, if you read a lot of missionary stories, and I have, I’ve read about scores of cases of demons being cast out of people on the mission field and things like that. But these are always in the name of Jesus, done by Christians. But the Bible does indicate there might be some people who aren’t exactly Christians at all, but still on occasions have success. And I don’t know what that would be. I don’t know how to explain it.
SPEAKER 10 :
Yeah. No, as always, Steve, it’s a pleasure to speak to you. And, yeah, God bless you. Thank you. You too, Peter.
SPEAKER 02 :
Thanks for calling, brother.
SPEAKER 10 :
All right. God bless you. Bye-bye.
SPEAKER 02 :
Okay, Kathy in Orange County, California. Welcome.
SPEAKER 09 :
Hello. Can you hear me okay?
SPEAKER 02 :
I can. Thank you.
SPEAKER 09 :
Oh, thank you. Hi, Steve. Thank you for taking my call. I have a question on Revelation chapter 12, verse 11. Mm-hmm. Just from my memory to quote it is that they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb and by the word of their testimony.
SPEAKER 02 :
And they loved not their lives unto the death.
SPEAKER 09 :
Yes. My question is on the word of their testimony. I’m not very clear on what does that mean. Does it mean our personal testimony or does it mean by the truth that we
SPEAKER 02 :
proclaim that jesus is alive that’s a fair question fair question because uh when i was growing up i heard this quoted a lot and people assumed it was us giving our testimony is what overcomes the devil and by the way giving a christian giving a testimony can be a very powerful thing i know i’m always blessed when i hear someone give their testimony when they’ve been radically saved and stuff and i know that I’m sure that has an impact on the people that are Satan’s people who are listening to and may convince them. But in the book of Revelation, the word witness or testimony, they’re the same word, witness, martia. It’s used to refer to the gospel. The gospel is the testimony of the church. We see that right at the very beginning in Revelation chapter 1. John says, I… I was on the island of Patmos for the testimony of Jesus Christ. He means for preaching the gospel. That’s what it means. And, you know, the two witnesses we see in Revelation 11, the years of their testimony are three and a half years. And then when their testimony is complete, you know, they’re killed by the beast for three days and a half. So the idea of the testimony is, In Revelation, it’s a common word used. I mean, I just gave a couple examples. I imagine there’s probably one form or another of that word. It’s probably found 10 or a dozen times in the book of Revelation because it’s a very common theme of the book of Revelation. I haven’t counted them, but there’s quite a lot of them. And it generally refers to the preaching of the gospel. Sometimes it’s equated with the word of God. The word of God and the testimony of Jesus are mentioned together quite a few times in Revelation. But the word of God, meaning the gospel, the word of the gospel and the testimony of the church about the gospel. So in that case, Revelation 12, 11 and others in Revelation, I don’t believe it’s talking about you giving your own story, your own testimony of how you got saved, which is what I grew up thinking of the word testimony that way entirely. You know, if someone’s going to give their testimony at church, they’re going to tell us how they got saved. And that term. I think is widely understood that way in modern usage. But we should recognize that in Revelation, it’s a very common word for the gospel itself. And I think that’s saying they overcame the devil by the blood of the lamb, which is how they overcame his accusations. Because in the verse before that, he’s called the accuser of the brethren is cast down and woe to the inhabitants of the earth because he’s been cast down to you. Well, the devil’s only called the accuser of the brethren one time in Scripture, and it’s there. And the next verse says, and they overcame him. Who? The accuser. By the blood of the Lamb. Well, how’s that work? Well, because the blood of Jesus cancels out the legitimacy of any accusations. Although we have done things wrong and can be rightly accused of it, Christ has forgiven. Christ has covered it. And because of that, no accusation can stick. So the accuser of the brethren is defeated by our appeal to Christ’s blood as our righteousness. That’s what that famous hymn means, where it says, just as I am without one plea, but that your blood was shed for me, you know, I come. The only plea I have is the blood of Christ when I’m accused. And the accuser, brethren, when he attacks your conscience, when he attacks you spiritually with your guilt and your sin and accusations, you defeat him by appeal to the blood of the Lamb. And then, The word of your testimony is when you turn the tables on him and start penetrating his territory with the gospel and start taking stuff from him. You see, all warfare has offensive and defensive aspects. You go on the offense because you want to take territory from the enemy and you need to defend yourself so you don’t become a casualty. So the blood of the lamb is the defensive against his attacks and accusations against us. And our preaching the gospel in his spirit in the world that he is in, takes territory from him, and that’s our offensive against him. So that’s what that verse, I think, is talking about. I need to take a break, but I appreciate your call. We’ve got another half hour coming, so don’t go away. You’re listening to The Narrow Path. We are listener-supported. You can help us if you want by going to thenarrowpath.com. Everything there is free, but you can donate there at thenarrowpath.com. I’ll be back in 30 seconds.
SPEAKER 01 :
If you enjoy the Narrow Path radio program, you’d really like the resources at our website, thenarrowpath.com, where hundreds of biblical lectures and messages by our host, Steve Gregg, can be accessed without charge and listened to at your convenience. If you have not done so, visit the website, thenarrowpath.com, and discover all that is available for your learning pleasure.
SPEAKER 02 :
Welcome back to the Narrow Path radio broadcast. My name is Steve Gregg, and we’re live for another half hour, taking your calls. If you have questions about the Bible or the Christian faith, maybe you have a disagreement with the host, want to talk about that, The number to call is 844-484-5737. Our next call comes from Millie in Boise, Idaho. Hi, Millie. Welcome.
SPEAKER 08 :
Hi, Steve. I wanted to get your commentary on a relatively new phenomenon of relabeling funerals to celebrations of life, which seems to me like it contradicts what’s really going on. and knowing that Jesus’ fated death is the final enemy to be conquered. And I was wondering what your thoughts are on this terminology that the church has seemed to grab onto and started in general society.
SPEAKER 02 :
Yeah, I mean, turning a funeral into a happy occasion is… We can see why that would be a popular thing to do. And I would say… When a Christian dies, there definitely is a mixture of mourning, to be sure, because you lost somebody you love and you’ll miss them, and it’s going to be sad for a while to remember that they’re not here anymore. On the other hand, of course, you know that they’ve gone to be with the Lord if they’re a believer, and that’s an exciting thing. I remember Chuck Smith, back in the Jesus movement, Chuck said he went to a funeral of a pastor friend of his on the weekend. And the next Sunday he was telling us about it. He said that the pastor’s teenage son was walking around smiling and saying, this is a promotion day for my dad. It’s like definitely putting a Christian’s perspective on it, which is true. I would expect that it’s a mixture. When you’re a Christian and you lose someone who’s a Christian, obviously you feel sorry that they’re gone. partly because any contribution they may have made to the kingdom of God or even to your own life has come to an end, not going to be happening. But also you’re going to be happy for them too. So I can see both things. You know, a memorial service could be seen as a celebration of life. You know, it might be that the burial itself should have some kind of somberness about it. Because, I mean, mourning for the dead is legitimate. Stephen, when he was stoned, Christians, it says, mourn for him. Let me see what it actually says. I’m trying to remember how it says it in Acts chapter 7 or 8. He died in chapter 7, but chapter 8 tells us something about it too here. I’m just looking that up because I’ve never actually looked this up before. Yeah, chapter 8, verse 2. This is after Stephen was stoned and obviously went to heaven. It says, And devout men carried Stephen to his burial and made great lamentation over him. So they made lamentation over him. They lamented the loss. Now, just before Stephen died, he saw Jesus in the sky. He saw the Son of Man standing at the right hand of God. I mean, that’s one of those glorious things a person could see transitioning from this life to the next. So, you know, I’m sure they knew that, wow, Stephen sure is lucky he’s with Jesus now. But they made great lamentation over him, partly because, well, partly because they’re going to miss him. And he was a great minister. And you’ve lost the service of him. It says in the Psalms, precious in the sight of the Lord is the death of his saints. And the word precious means expensive, costly. So it’s costly to God for his saints to die. Why? Because there’s few of them and we need more. The world needs more of them. And they’re worth a lot. And when they die, that’s a costly thing to the kingdom, you know, the great work they were doing or could do in the future. is suddenly cut off. So there’s a sense in which there’s a grief about it. It’s a costly thing. There’s something to mourn. On the other hand, we’re not mourning for them per se. We’re mourning for the world and for us left behind. So there’s a sense in which I think there’s appropriateness about it when somebody dies to show some sobriety and some grief over the loss. And that might be, I’m not sure, maybe that’s what you would do at a funeral, and then maybe you should have a memorial service separately, which is a celebration of that person’s life, where people gather and say how much that person meant to them and so forth. But, I mean, just turning a funeral into a party so that you never really, you never even allow the loss of, to sink in or to dawn on you is perhaps missing an important aspect of death. I mean, Jesus wept. We read of Jesus weeping at the tomb of Lazarus, even though he knew he was going to raise Lazarus from the dead in the next few minutes. Jesus knew that. And so he knew that Lazarus wasn’t really gone for good. But I think that it’s just death is a sobering thing. Death shouldn’t be here. There shouldn’t have been death. If there was not sin, there would not be death. And therefore, death is simply, you mentioned Paul refers in 1 Corinthians 15 to the last enemy that will be destroyed is death. Now, I was debating a Christian theologian about something. Actually, he was a full preterist. And he was trying to tell me that, well, I won’t tell you what his position was, but he asked me, is death for the Christian, is it a friend or an enemy? Now, he was trying to trap me because on one hand, and I knew immediately he was trying to trap me because I knew that Paul said, For me to live is Christ and to die is gain. I have a great desire to depart and be with Christ, which is far better, he said. That’s in Philippians 1. And in 2 Corinthians 2, he said that we are eager to be absent from the body and to be present with the Lord. So obviously, we could say death is in one sense kind of a welcome thing. When we get to transition, go be with Jesus. And yet Paul did say that death is the last enemy that must be destroyed. So the man was trying to get me to commit to death being either a friend or an enemy. Well, I think it’s both in a sense. It’s an enemy of Christ because it takes out his agents. It takes out his guys. It takes down his soldiers. Death is an enemy of Christ, but it’s not the enemy of the Christians. in the sense that Christians benefit from it, but the world doesn’t, and God’s enterprise in the world doesn’t. And so, you know, there’s a positive side, something to rejoice about, and there’s a negative, something to mourn about, and even Jesus mourned over it. So I think, you know, I won’t say that if I went to a funeral and everyone was saying this is a celebration of life, that I don’t think I’d take a whip of small cords and drive out everybody or anything like that. And I don’t know if I’d even be really offended. But I do think we lose out on something of the experience that people have always had when they lose loved ones. If we kind of just mask over the grief and just say, oh, well, there’s a good side to this. This is the silver lining. That person’s in heaven. We’re not going to think about how sad we are because we don’t want to be sad. so anyway it’s a hard call I wouldn’t judge either but I think maybe both are a good idea maybe have a funeral where it’s solemn where you know the widow can weep or whatever and you know the loved ones can weep and be sorrowful and others will weep with them mourn with those who mourn Paul said and then maybe after that when people you know after the mourning is done then have a a memorial, which would be, as you say, a celebration of life. That would be the best of both worlds, I think.
SPEAKER 08 :
Thank you so much. That really deepens my perspective and gives me some things to think about. Thank you, Steve.
SPEAKER 02 :
Okay, Millie. Thanks for your call. God bless you. All right. Our next caller is Tracy from Portland, Oregon. Hi, Tracy. Welcome.
SPEAKER 07 :
Hi, Steve. Thanks. You took a call yesterday on John Chapter 2, the Wedding in Cana, the miracle of water to wine. And I may not be in agreement with you on your answer, and I just don’t like that. So I wanted to run something by you.
SPEAKER 02 :
Feel free.
SPEAKER 07 :
What is it? I think I’ve heard over the years that woman, in the case that Jesus used it there, was generally respectful. That’s right. It wasn’t like, woman, make me a sandwich. It was a respectful term. And I’ve wondered if possibly Father God maybe wanted to bless Mary in that situation by kind of making her a conduit to inform Jesus that, yes, indeed, it was his time to begin. Because it seems to me from the reading that he just kind of went straight ahead and did it, even after he asked her that question. What do you think? Yeah.
SPEAKER 02 :
Well, we’re not told that he went straight away and did it. The next thing we’re told is that he did it. But a wedding feast would go on for a week or two usually. Now, it may be as soon as he made that remark to Mary that he went ahead and just did it because that was his father’s instruction. Or it may be that, you know, other things went on for a while, maybe even days past or hours, and then it was the time. So he told the people to fill the water pots, you know. I don’t know. I don’t know that you’ve said anything I disagree with. Like I said, the word woman, addressed to a woman, I mentioned yesterday. It was a respectful term, just like saying madam or ma’am. Oh, okay. And Jesus addressed several women that way when he addressed them. Oh, woman, great is your faith, he said, you know. And he spoke to men that way, too. He says, man, who made me a judge of you? Man… You know, Paul said, oh, man, you know, who are you to answer against God and stuff like that? Oh, man, this is addressing a man. And woman is evocative way of addressing a woman and very common in the New Testament. So there’s nothing abrupt or or or short about it. But I guess what you’re saying is that it really was his time. Well, but he said it wasn’t. That’s the point. I mean, when she asked, she said there’s no wine there. He said, woman, what has your business got to do with me? He said, my time has not yet come, or my hour has not yet come. So he said it wasn’t his time at that moment, but maybe it was a little later, and maybe the narrative skips over whatever unimportant things happened in between and then tells us about the miracle. But I wouldn’t, yeah, I don’t know. On the woman thing, I agree with you on that.
SPEAKER 07 :
I just thought that it sounded like she just kind of turned immediately and said to the servants, do whatever he tells you, like she was expecting him to do it. I mean, that’s just kind of how I saw it.
SPEAKER 02 :
Yeah, I don’t see how she could possibly have expected him to turn water into wine since he had lived in her home for 30 years and never done any miracles. We’re told in John chapter 2, after he turned the water into wine, it says this was the first of his miracles, or the beginning of his miracles. So it seems to me that although, of course, his birth was a miracle, everything from his birth on to age 30… He conducted himself in the home just like a good son, you know, a good son, but not like a god in the flesh, apparently.
SPEAKER 07 :
But you think maybe she was just expecting him to do something practical, like do something just to get some wine instead of actually doing a miracle.
SPEAKER 02 :
Okay, okay. Yeah, I mean, like I said, I think she had become accustomed, especially after Joseph’s death, to coming to Jesus about the kind of things that a woman might normally go to her husband about. You know, oh, we’re out of this or that. And so, you know, she tells her husband so he can do something about it. Okay. The door’s hanging loose on the hinge, honey. You know, in other words, well, I’m putting the balls in your court now. And, you know, but not necessarily expecting the person to do a miracle, but to… But to take the, I don’t know, take the responsibility or at least take the burden off of her of caring about that.
SPEAKER 07 :
Okay. Well, thank you. All right.
SPEAKER 02 :
Okay. Great talking to you, Tracy. God bless.
SPEAKER 04 :
You too. Bye-bye. Bye-bye.
SPEAKER 02 :
Felix from Phoenix. Those words go together well. How are you doing, Felix?
SPEAKER 05 :
Hey, Steve. How are you doing? Good.
SPEAKER 02 :
Good.
SPEAKER 05 :
I just wanted to ask really quick. So I was watching a couple of videos last night, and they were referencing, I believe just once or twice, the book of Enoch. Obviously not biblical scripture or anything, and I have never read it, but it does kind of intrigue me a little bit. So I was just wondering if you’ve read it, or is that something that you think people should read maybe just for context, or do you think it’s just something that we should disregard since it’s not considered biblical scripture? Yeah.
SPEAKER 02 :
Yeah, I haven’t read the whole book. Actually, there’s several books of Enoch. I think, if I’m not mistaken, I think there’s four books of Enoch. But 1 Enoch is the one most people refer to. That’s the one that Jude quoted from. And that most people, when they talk about the book of Enoch, they’re talking about 1 Enoch. I haven’t read the whole thing. It doesn’t interest me enough. I have looked some things up in it because on certain websites – Some people have listed things that they say that the New Testament was quoting Enoch. And I know, of course, I know that Jude quoted Enoch. He actually says, Enoch said this, you know. But there’s apparently maybe a dozen or so other places where people claim that Paul or Jesus or someone else is quoting Enoch. And so I have the book of Enoch, so I’ve looked it up and stuff, and I thought, well, that’s a stretch. In many cases, for example, Jesus would be quoting some Old Testament passage, and Enoch also quotes that Old Testament passage. So in my mind, Jesus is quoting the Old Testament. In their mind, they say, well, see, he’s quoting Enoch, because Enoch has that in there too, which is kind of an absurd argument. But You know, as far as reading Enoch, I don’t see anything against it, except people who do read Enoch sometimes get really into believing what Enoch said. For example, the whole explanation of Genesis 6, that the sons of God who took the women as wives, that those were fallen angels and so forth. Well, there’s nothing in the Bible that says they were fallen angels, but But Enoch said that, and that’s where the church got it. The church got the idea, and many Christians have gotten it from there. And the Jews got it from there, too. Enoch said that those were angels. Well, maybe they were, but I have my doubts about it, and I’m certainly not going to assume it just because Enoch said so. I think the evidence from Genesis 6 would be against it. But anyway, that’s another story. I don’t care whether they were or not. The point is that a lot of people read Enoch, and they feel like Enoch is somehow filling things in in the biblical stories of the Old Testament, which there’s always people who don’t know the difference between the Bible and something else that’s talking about Bible subjects. And that’s why, you know, the Book of Mormon has convinced a lot of people that it’s genuine because it has, you know, it uses language about the Bible. It mentions Jesus and so forth. But it’s not the Bible. But a lot of people don’t have the discernment. And I think that, you know, I think it’s safe to read it if it’s safe to read it. The early church read it. The early church liked it. And so I don’t have any reason to say that it can’t be read. But I don’t see any reason to read it either because it’s not written by Enoch. If it was written by Enoch the prophet, well, I’d be very interested in knowing what he had to say. But since it was written, you know, by someone else thousands of years after Enoch walked the earth and claiming to be him, I think, well, why should I be very interested in what they have to say? I can read the Bible myself. I don’t need them guessing about things for me. So that’s one reason I’ve never taken the time to read the whole book. I’m not that interested. Some people have gotten very interested in it in the last decade or so. I think Michael Heiser’s teaching has gotten a lot of people interested in Enoch, but also others are using Enoch more. You know, read it if you’re curious. But just know you’re not reading scripture. You might as well be reading, you know, the Lion, the Witch, and the War Room, you know, which is edifying also. And Enoch can be edifying too.
SPEAKER 04 :
Awesome. Thank you, Steve. I appreciate it. I’ll probably check it out, but definitely take it with a grain of salt. So thank you.
SPEAKER 02 :
Okay, Felix. God bless.
SPEAKER 04 :
God bless. Thank you.
SPEAKER 02 :
Bye now. Okay. Let’s see. Benjamin from Greenville, Ohio. Welcome. Welcome.
SPEAKER 06 :
So I’m going through some studies with a couple of friends on the kingdom of God. And I feel like they’re both on board with what’s being said. But as soon as we start talking about evangelizing, they go rogue and talk about getting into heaven. They kind of resort back to evangelism. I feel like it’s being dismissed. I was wondering if you could give any advice on how to redirect them back.
SPEAKER 02 :
Well, you know, people often are fascinated with heaven and hell. And there is a heaven and there is a hell, so it’s not something that needs to be ignored or should be ignored. My emphasis is, I mean, when I talk about it, that the Bible very seldom speaks about going to heaven or going to hell. There’s a few verses about hell in the Bible, and there’s a few verses about going to heaven. And then there’s thousands and thousands of verses that have nothing to do with going to heaven or hell. They have to do with living a life pleasing to God, fulfilling the purpose God made for us, and especially in the New Testament, about the kingdom of God. Now, because so many people assume the kingdom of God means heaven, They have, you know, they read so much in the Bible about the kingdom of God that they assume that it must be always talking about heaven. And that interests them. It interests, well, I don’t know about your friends. I’ll say it interests a lot of people to talk about heaven and hell because they don’t want to change their life very much, but they don’t want to go to hell. So they’d like to know what is the message that will get me into heaven. And they don’t ask, what is the information in the Bible that will tell me how to live a life pleasing to God and fulfill God’s purposes in the world so that I don’t live a wasted life? They already know what they want to do with their life on many occasions. I’m talking about Christians as well as non-Christians. A lot of Christians just want the bare minimum. Tell me how to get to heaven. Oh, I accept Jesus in my heart? Okay, good. I’m going. Oh, you’ve got to be baptized too? Well, I’ve got that box checked too. And we’ll check the boxes and say, okay, I’ve got that done. Now let me live my life the way I like it. Let me spend my money the way I want to spend it. Let me have my relationships and my entertainment and my deity, my gods, or my idols in this life, you know, because I’ve checked the box and I’m going to heaven. And I think a lot of people, including Christian people, are looking for a very non-intrusive religion, something that can give them at the lowest cost the greatest assurance of benefit in the next life. And, you know, I don’t know how to get that out of them. I mean, if there’s nothing wrong with wanting to be prepared for the next life, everyone should. Everyone should be concerned to be prepared for the next life. But we have to understand that’s not what the gospel is about. I believe Abraham, who never heard the gospel as we have, I think he died prepared for the next life. I think Jacob and Moses and David, I think they died prepared for the next life, but they didn’t know the gospel. Going to be with the Lord is a good thing, but that’s not what the gospel is about. The gospel is a message about the kingdom of God. Sure. So, you know, how to get people to realize that heaven, going to heaven when you die, is for people who are citizens of the kingdom of God, which is something you become now. And once you become a citizen of the kingdom of God, your life has a purpose to be fulfilled. And you’re supposed to live in agreement with the king and follow his orders. And it’s like you’re in the army now. You know, that’s what the Bible says. It’s like you’ve been drafted into a mission. And your king has a plan for you. Now, when you get drafted in the army, of course, we don’t have a draft here anymore. We did when I was young. When a person is drafted in the army or when they join on their own, they give up their civilian life for the time being. And that’s what Paul said in 2 Timothy 2. He said, no man that wars… entangles himself in the affairs of this life, that he might please him who called him to be a soldier. So, you know, if someone goes into the army, you know that they’re going to have to be under the command of their commanders. And it’s not like being a civilian. And being in the kingdom of God is you become part of a king’s forces, and you’re at war. He’s at war with the kingdom of darkness, and you’re now engaged in a battle for the rest of your life, And assuming you’re faithful unto death, you get to go to heaven when you die, too. But, you know, I don’t think people should never think about heaven. I think about it once in a while. That is, when I think about dying. When I think about dying, I think about heaven. You know, because I look forward to seeing Jesus. But I don’t think about dying all the time. I know in the back of my mind all the time I could die today. I could die any moment. And I’m quite happy to know that if I do die, I’m ready to go be with Jesus. But… I’m not necessarily expecting to die this week. And if I don’t, I’ve got to do something with my life. In fact, if I don’t die for another 30 years, I’ve got to do something with my life that time. So the gospel is not about how to get a ticket to heaven. The gospel is about how to enter the kingdom of God and be a participant in God’s plan. you know, mission here. And I don’t know if, you know, I don’t know why, maybe your friends are not shying away from that, but maybe they think that unbelievers don’t want to hear about that. If they want to talk, you know, if they want to evangelize, people say, well, you know, you need to go to heaven when you die. They may be assuming that that’s how Jesus would talk to an unbeliever. But I’ve never read of Jesus ever talking to an unbeliever about going to heaven. Or the apostles either.
SPEAKER 06 :
They’ve actually mentioned that as far as saying, well, I mean, they feel like they have to give someone something to get to heaven before they would be a servant. I feel like they’re getting it backwards.
SPEAKER 02 :
They definitely are getting it backwards. So are they saying that they would do nothing for their wives if they’re not going to get anything back for it? I mean, don’t they love their wives? I mean, people should serve God because they love God. And if they don’t love God… I don’t think they’re going to go to heaven. They wouldn’t like it there. If you don’t love God, you’re not going to want to be there. You’re going to be having to love and worship him and obey him. You’re going to be gritting your teeth because you never loved him. No, Jesus is looking for people who love him like he loves us. And the Bible says we do love him because he first loved us. God’s looking for a love relationship with people. And when people love each other, they love to make sacrifices to please the other. They love to… Always be concerned about what is going to bless the other person. They’re not thinking, what can I get out of them? And so, you know, if there are people who respond to an evangelistic message, that is, just do this little thing, jump through this little hoop, and then God will give you heaven in the future. And, you know, what if I don’t love God? That’s okay. Just say this prayer, you know, and you’ll go to heaven. It’s like a bargain deal. It’s like making a bargain with God to indebt him to send you to heaven, when Jesus never talked about that. Jesus just never talked about that. Jesus talked about the need to love God with all your heart, soul, mind, and strength, and love your neighbor as you love yourself. And if you do, you’re going to want to serve God. You’re going to want to serve people. You’re not going to be asking, what am I going to get out of this? Now, you will get something out of it. That’s the point. But that’s not going to be what you require. in order to do it. If you love someone, you will please them. And, you know, you’ll get something out of it, too, probably, in most cases, but that’s not what you’re thinking about. Anyway, that’s not what Jesus said. Actually, neither Jesus nor the apostles ever brought those subjects up when they evangelized. Jesus did talk to the disciples about it. Okay, well, thanks for your call. Good talking to you. We’re out of time for today’s show. You’ve been listening to the Narrow Path radio broadcast for 28 years. We’ve been on daily doing this very thing. We are listener supported. If you’d like to help us stay on the air, you can go to the website, thenarrowpath.com, and see how to donate. Thanks for joining us.
