Join Steve Gregg on ‘The Narrow Path’ as he unpacks the often misunderstood topic of Christian giving and generosity. This enlightening episode delves deep into the role of tithing, not as a pathway to wealth, but as a demonstration of a heart committed to Christ and love for others. Steve shares insights on how our resources reflect our values and discusses the biblical understanding of stewardship, encouraging us to invest in both physical assistance and spiritual outreach. Throughout the discussion, listeners are reminded of the spiritual rewards that outweigh material gain.
SPEAKER 1 :
Thank you.
SPEAKER 01 :
Good afternoon and welcome to the Narrow Path radio broadcast. My name is Steve Gregg and we’re live for an hour each weekday afternoon. So we can take your calls if you have questions about the Bible or about the Christian faith. We’d be glad to talk about those questions if you have a different viewpoint from the host. And you want to bring that up for conversation, we’ll be glad to converse with you about that as well. The number to call is 844-454-5737. Now, if you tried to call before the program began today, I noticed just before music started playing that the lines, for some reason, were blocked. But we’ve unblocked them. We now have calls coming in. There’s probably one line open right now if you want to call. 844-484-5737. And I know you guys probably get tired of hearing me talk about this, but we’re still making arrangements for my speaking engagements in Tennessee and Arizona, Northern California, and Texas at this point. Those are all trips I’m making in March and April. And if you live in one of those states, that would be Tennessee, Arizona, Northern California or Texas, and you’d like to attend one of these meetings, feel free to check out the appointments we already have posted at our website. If you would like to host a meeting of some kind or set one up, that can be done, too. You’ll have to get in touch with us soon because the dates are closing up. But, yeah, you can go to our website, thenarrowpath.com. Look under announcements. You’ll see these trips are listed there, the various places I’m speaking. And if you want to set up a date in one of those areas while I’m there, I’d be glad to speak at whatever you want to set up. And so just enough on that. Again, the website is thenarrowpath.com. We’re going to go to the phones and talk to our callers now because the lines have filled up and talk to Gary from Nutley, New Jersey. Hi, Gary. Welcome.
SPEAKER 05 :
Hi. Thank you, Steve. Always a pleasure to speak with you. Steve, the question that I have today, As far as on giving, I guess if you sow abundantly or reap abundantly in the tithes, I’ve heard everything in the church saying that if you don’t give your tithes, God will put you under a curse. So how does that work? Is it sort of like investing into the kingdom? Is it kind of like investing in the stock market? The more I give, the more God will bless me back with material things or Can you just explain that a little bit? You said God loves a cheerful giver, but not everybody can afford to give that much because maybe, you know, financial. So can you just explain that? And I’ll listen to you, but I’d like to listen. I’d like to stay on the line while you explain that. Okay, great.
SPEAKER 01 :
Well, the way some people teach it, giving money to God or to the church or to some ministry is, is a great way to guarantee that God will prosper you financially. Unfortunately, when people teach that, they kind of ruin people’s opportunity to give out of generosity. Because if you’re giving something to God, but you’re doing it because in the back of your mind thinking, oh good, now he’s going to give me a hundredfold back, then you’re not really giving, you’re just investing and you’re hoping for a big return. In other words, you’re doing it for yourself. You’re not doing it out of love for anyone except yourself. And that should not be related at all. Jesus said we should give expecting nothing in return or lend expecting nothing in return. Giving is simply part, it’s not a religious duty. Unfortunately for many people, Christianity is a religion. So when it’s a religion, you have to figure out what are the religious duties here? How much can I get away with not doing and still be meeting the religious requirements here? There is no religion in the New Testament of Christianity. There is simply Christ. It has become a religion for many people, and I wish that weren’t so, but it doesn’t have to be for us. You can simply be devoted to Christ. And if you’re devoted to Christ, that means everything you have now belongs to him because you do. You’ve been bought with a price. You’re not your own. Christ’s death has purchased you. You’ve been redeemed. That means purchased or bought by Christ. So when you come to Christ and you’re devoted to Christ, and you’re what the Bible calls a Christian, that means that everything you have now is his. And then the question is, how do I then decide what to do with the money if it’s not mine? Well, obviously the Bible indicates that God wants you to take care of your family. He certainly has no objection to you meeting your needs and your family’s needs. Obviously you might have obligations beyond your family that you have to meet too, but Those are things that Christ wants you to take care of. But there’s other things that you could spend money on that are, what should we say, not mandatory. And that elective money or whatever, resources, it can even be not money. It could be you could have elective time on your hands that other people don’t have. But you are a steward of those things. And he expects you to give money. to that where your heart is. Jesus said where your treasure is, that’s where your heart will be. In other words, your heart and your treasure will pretty much go to the same place. If you keep your money and your treasure on earth, invest it in things for yourself, Jesus said that’s not really what you should be doing. You should be laying up treasure in heaven. How do you do that? Well, Jesus told the rich young ruler, that he should sell all they have and give it to the poor, and he’ll have treasure in heaven. Obviously, giving to the poor, and this would mean, I mean, there’s so many poor people that you can’t give them all, so you’d have to use some responsible judgment as to whom you will support and whom you would not. But there are things that are God’s concerns, and the poor are among the most frequently mentioned in the Bible of God’s concerns. And our obligation to help the poor is, should weigh heavily upon us, not as a religious duty, but because it’s something called love. Love is what the Holy Spirit puts in our hearts. Paul says in Romans 5, the love of God is shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Spirit. And if we are followers of God and filled with the Spirit, then we’re going to be having this fruit, the fruit of the Spirit, which is love. And love is manifested in helping people. Now, there’s two major things here. I think that we need to be aware of helping people with. One of them is, you know, their financial material needs. There are people who are hungry. There’s people who are unclothed. There’s people who are unhoused. And if we can do something that will change that situation for them, then that would be a kindness. That would be consistent with love. The Bible says if you have this world’s good and you see your brother has need and you shut up your bowels of compassion from him and don’t help him, How does the love of God dwell in you? Obviously, love is seen in giving physical assistance to people in need, but also people have other needs that we know about, and that is spiritual needs. And so we should also be concerned, and our money can be used this way too, to support the meeting of spiritual needs for people. This can be the support of your church. This can be the support of missionaries. This can be the support of any kind of ministry in which the Word of God is going out and helping people. This would be also one of the things, besides physical needs of the poor, there’s the spiritual needs of everybody. Those are the highest priorities that the Bible mentions for our giving. Now, the Bible doesn’t tell us how much to give, and it won’t because it doesn’t tell us how much we each have. You can’t tell everybody to give the same amount. Like you said, some people don’t have a lot of money. God is more concerned about about the heart, and what is manifested about the heart in the areas of generosity and good management of God’s monies. Remember, it’s his money. So when we stand before God, Jesus told at least two parables about this. When we stand before God, he’s going to say, okay, I gave you this much. What did you do with it? How much did you profit my kingdom with what you had? And we’re going to have to give answers, and many people are going to be rather ashamed, I think, by the answers they have to give. But But the point is, we have to live every day knowing that we are here as God’s stewards and we’re giving. Now, will you get rich if you give? I don’t know. The Bible doesn’t say you’ll get rich. And if you do get rich, that’s just God providing more for you to give. So, you know, God does. Jesus does not encourage us to think in terms of getting wealthy. It’s not wrong to be wealthy because if you are a true steward of Christ and you have a lot of money, then you can give a lot of money to things that matter to him. If you don’t have a lot of money, you can just give a little bit. And God is not more impressed with big gifts than little big gifts. Jesus, of course, mentioned that about the widow who had only two pennies to give. And he said she gave all that she had. And in doing so, she gave more than the rich people gave when they gave large sums. So God is not God isn’t concerned about money. He can make gold. He can make planets with gold if he wants to. He’s not a poor god. He owns the cattle on a thousand hills. But he is concerned about our heart. And so I guess the way we give, more than anything, is an exhibit of where our heart is at. Again, where your treasure is your money, your heart will be also. And you can tell what somebody values, where their heart is, by giving. where their elective resources go because you’ll naturally, you know, you’ll naturally expend your resources on the things that you value most. And so you can kind of look at your, you know, check register if you still have a checkbook. or at your bank account and see where your money’s been going. Now, obviously, some is going to go toward rent. Some is going to probably keep you equipped with a car, clothing, food, care for your family, maybe sending your kids to Christian school. There’s lots of expenses. But that’s not elective money. Elective money is after you’ve paid all the things you have to pay, what do you have left? And what you do with that, is going to determine where your heart’s at. Now, will you be blessed financially if you give a lot? Well, there are things in the Bible that suggest this. But we have to realize that sometimes what God gives back isn’t in the same currency as what we give. We can benefit very much spiritually by giving material things. In fact, we can become indebted materially. By the receiving of spiritual things, as Paul said, if I ministered to you in spiritual things, it’s no great thing for me to expect to be, you know, a recipient of the material things. Now, he wasn’t charging money, but he was just making sure the Corinthians knew how to think about things. You know, if you have a. you receive spiritual benefit or any other kind of benefit from someone, then you may be indebted to help support them. But giving is a big subject, only because it’s not enough to just say, well, you have to give to the poor. Yeah, you do need to give to the poor, but who is legitimately poor? Paul said that the church should support widows because they were usually poor, but he said not the widows who have other options, not the widows who have children who should support them. The church should support those who really have no other options. I think the same is true in general about giving to the poor. Are there other options besides being given gifts of God’s money, open to them? Maybe you can help them find those options. The idea is there’s more poverty in the world and more biblical poverty in the sense of people not knowing the Bible. then any of us can underwrite. If you were Elon Musk, you still could not underwrite the removal of everyone in the world from poverty. There’s a lot of intelligent things that have to be done, especially not just giving to the poor, but helping them rise out of poverty certainly is one of the things. But it takes some ingenuity. It takes an eagerness to do everything you can for the poor, which is what love would do. Same thing for getting the gospel out. You have to have a love for the gospel, for the word of God, and to do all you can to get that out. Those are the attitudes you need to have. Will God bless you and make you wealthy? You know, he might. He might. I can say, I’m an old man now, when I was young, I gave a lot to the poor as well as being poor myself, but I never got rich. I mean, I’d say the first, I’m going to say the first 30 or more years of my ministry, I lived in what most people would regard as poverty, and that’s fine. I had no problem with that. Paul said having food and clothing, we should with these be content. That’s what a Christian should feel about material things. But although I gave a lot, I never really got back a lot, but I always got enough. And that’s all that matters. Having enough is sufficient. Now, I will say that as I’ve gotten older, what God has provided for me has increased. I’m still not a wealthy man by American standards, but I certainly consider wealthy by third world standards. And that wasn’t always the case. But it is today. I’m comfortable, but I’m also giving more than I used to. But I wouldn’t use my case as a universal case because everybody’s situation is different. And again, I gave a lot before and didn’t ever get wealthy. But the thing is, if your motive is to get wealthy, then I’m not sure why God would let you fall into that trap. It says in 1 Timothy 6 that those who want to be rich fall into many temptations and a snare which drown men’s souls in destruction. I don’t think God wants that for you. Jesus said it’s harder for a rich man to get into the kingdom of God than I would think. If that’s true, then don’t give me too much riches, please, unless I can handle them and not find it greater difficulty to enter the kingdom of God. We need to reverse our values. When Jesus began speaking to the disciples in the Sermon on the Mount, He said, blessed are you poor, yours is the kingdom of God, in Luke chapter 6, verse, I think, 20. That certainly was a reversal of their human priorities. And, you know, we need to really be totally devoted to Christ or else we’re not worthy of him. As he said, he said, whoever does not forsake all that he has cannot be my disciple. He means by that, not forsake it in the sense of divest of it, but you forsake it in the sense that you renounce the ownership of it. It’s now Christ’s. And now you are his servant to manage his things for him, for his interests. And will he make you rich as a result? I don’t know. In America, it’s very possible that you will be rich, but But if you are, that only increases your obligation. Because to whom much is given, of them much is required. So I would say that even if God might prosper you as a result of your generosity, if that could be true, I would keep that the farthest thing from my mind when I’m deciding how generous to be. Because as soon as you’re being generous in order that God will make you richer, you’re not being generous anymore. You’re just being greedy. So that would be Some of my thoughts on that. It’s obviously a complex subject. By the way, I have some lectures at our website, thenarrowpath.com, under the general heading of Toward a Radically Christian Counterculture. There’s a series of lectures called Toward a Radically Christian Counterculture. And several of those lectures are about the biblical Christian view of money and economics and so forth. And I talk about these things in more detail there than I can here. I thank you for your call. Sharon from Taylor, Texas. Welcome.
SPEAKER 02 :
Hi. Thank you for taking my call. I really appreciate it. And thank you for the first part of your show just now. I find that very interesting, and I could talk to you about that forever. But what I called about today seems less important today than it was two days ago when I was trying to reach you on the phone. But here’s my dilemma, and it kind of causes me to stumble just a little bit. So when I hear, I listen to lots of preachers because I love to listen to different preaching all throughout the day. I also listen to the God oral, you know, oral, listen to it all throughout the day, the Gospel of John and gospel revelation going on on my phone constantly, because I want to get to the truth. But here’s what makes me stumble. I have friends. There are preachers on the radio. There’s even good shows. I like hearing them. But many preachers, certain ones, tend to talk about the false prophet. And they say the scriptures, but then when they point to who these false prophets are in this day and time, they start saying names, and I don’t want to say names. I don’t want to say names right now. But now instead of saying names, because this has gone on for years and years and years, they target these certain people that they call false prophets. Now they’re targeting it. They’re saying it like this. Those creatures that have 10,000, 20,000 in their sanctuary, 35,000, thousands and thousands, these are the false prophets. Instead of saying their names, now they’re doing this. And this is a show that sometimes comes on before your show. I heard him three days ago. He’s trying to… the false prophets that have, you know, thousands and thousands in their, you know, in the congregation.
SPEAKER 01 :
Okay, well, let me jump in. Let me jump in because that’s a long question. First of all, there are, Jesus said there will be false prophets. Peter tells us in 2 Peter chapter 2 there will be false teachers. Paul said in Acts chapter 20 there will be false elders, which would be like pastors. And You know, there’s plenty of warnings about ministers who we need to be aware of. Jesus said we have to watch out for them because they’re like wolves in sheep’s clothing. Now, the fact that they’re in sheep’s clothing means they look like Christians. They look like sheep, Christ’s sheep. But they’re not shepherds. They should be shepherds of the sheep, but instead they’re wolves. This is something we need to watch out for. Jesus also spoke about leaders who are hirelings. He means people who are in it for the money. He says they don’t mind shepherding the sheep as long as they’re making a profit at it. But when the wolf is coming, they run away. They’re cowardly. So, I mean, there’s many warnings about false teachers and false prophets and such. So we shouldn’t be surprised that there are many of them. Now, there’s a couple of ways you can go about this. dealing with this reality. One is you can go out trying to figure out who is and who isn’t one and then make a list of all their names and then try to tell everybody all the names of these people. One of the problems with that, of course, is is that you have to decide, well, what’s the criterion I’m going to use to include somebody on this list of mine, of false teachers? And what happens usually is that a favorite doctrine of the person making the list is the criterion for deciding who’s a false teacher or false prophet. If you don’t teach what they teach, then you go on the list. Now, of course, the issue here is, how do they know that they are not false teachers themselves? How do they know that these others who don’t agree with them might not actually be correct, and they themselves wrong? Now, of course, ego alone would guarantee to someone that they are not wrong, since they assume that almost anybody else can be wrong, but they must not assume that they could be wrong. So, obviously, humility would say, well, Lord, is it I? Could I be off here? Humility But many people, especially people who seem to be the heresy hunters who go out listing the false prophets and so forth by name, I can’t speak at all of them, but a lot of them seem to be quite confident in themselves, quite sure that they could not be deceived, quite sure that their particular denominational viewpoint that they hold is the one viewpoint that all Christians are expected to hold. And I just, you know, this is an annoying habit on the part. What I think we should do is teach the sheep what the Bible says and warn them that there will be people who teach things that are not what the Bible says. and give them a solid biblical basis for believing what they do. Don’t just say, well, we believe this because that’s what our denomination believes. I was listening to a YouTube some time ago of a preacher who was telling his congregation, you know, anybody who doesn’t see the subject of Israel the way we do, they’re a false teacher, they’re heretics, they’re wolves in sheep’s clothing. And I think, well, wait a minute, could you please show us that the way you’re talking about Israel is the way the Bible necessarily talks about it. Because, frankly, there are subjects like that where good Christians who love the Lord and who love the Bible don’t see it all the same way. I really don’t think we could say that somebody’s opinion about Israel is one of those things that would mark them off as a false prophet, since the New Testament doesn’t tell us anything about Israel in the sense that they’re talking about. I mean, these people are usually talking about eschatology. Well, there’s no eschatology about Israel in the New Testament. There might be some if you understand the Old Testament a certain way, but that’s disputed. I think that one should say, listen, there are things that cannot be compromised on. They include the fact that Jesus is the Son of God, that Jesus died for our sins and rose again, that we are called to be obedient to him because he’s the King of kings and Lord of lords. He has all authority in heaven and earth, and therefore we have to submit to him. Therefore, watch out for people. who don’t think they have to obey Jesus. Watch out for people who deny that Jesus is the Lord or the King. And the ones who would deny such things are dangerous false prophets. Now, among those who are not dangerous in that sense, there may be many who hold different views than we do on things that are not dangerous, that are not the core issues. And where we see things differently from others, we should dialogue with them if they’ll do it, and see if we can all come to a better understanding of what the Bible says. Unfortunately, too many times people isolate themselves into their little echo chambers of people who agree like they do, and they draw their cloaks around them to cover them from the world outside, and they can only say negative things about anyone who’s not under the cloak with them. I’m afraid that’s very divisive, and that’s not the right way to handle the subject. I’m willing to talk to anyone about any doctrine, And I’ll tell them when I think they’re not right. But to broad brush, anyone who doesn’t agree with us on this or that doctrine, if it isn’t a doctrine that has an adverse effect on one’s discipleship, if it’s not a doctrine that has an adverse effect on their loving one another and living for Christ fully, then it’s a negotiable thing. And we’re not in the position before God to be excluding people whom he might accept, whom he has cleansed, do not call unclean or common. That’s what Jesus said. So I’m a little concerned about some of these heresy hunters out there who are pretty sure that they know who all the false prophets are. There are false prophets, and we need to be mindful, meditate daily on the word of God so that we know what the truth is. And then when the counterfeits come our way, we’ll recognize them for what they are. Hey, I need to take a break here. I appreciate your call. You’re listening to The Narrow Path. We have another half hour coming up, so don’t go away. We are listener supported. If you want to help us out, our website is thenarrowpath.com. You can take anything free there or donate if you wish at thenarrowpath.com. I’ll be back in 30 seconds. Don’t go away.
SPEAKER 04 :
Is the Great Tribulation about to begin? Are we seeing the fulfillment of biblical prophecy unfolding before our very eyes? In the series, When Shall These Things Be?, Steve Gregg answers these and many other intriguing questions. The lecture series entitled, When Shall These Things Be?, can be downloaded in MP3 format without charge from our website, thenarrowpath.com.
SPEAKER 01 :
Welcome back to the Narrow Path radio broadcast. My name is Steve Gregg, and we have another half hour to take your calls. Right now, I’m looking at one line open on the switchboard. If you want to call, the number is 844-484-5737. That’s 844-484-5737. Our next caller is Joshua from Phoenix, Arizona. Hi, Joshua. Welcome. Hi, Steve.
SPEAKER 07 :
So just to say real quick about the false prophets, I think anyone claiming that they have the truth via science as well can be false scribes. That’s very important. That came onto my heart.
SPEAKER 01 :
Via science, you say? Through science?
SPEAKER 07 :
Yeah, science. Like people are saying, oh, you know, evolution and all this stuff, saying they have the truth outside of the Bible, right?
SPEAKER 01 :
Right. Well, yeah, if they’re claiming that the Bible teaches this or that this is a Christian doctrine, yeah, that’s definitely false. A lot of people who teach evolution are not trying to represent it as a Christian doctrine or part of the Christian faith, and therefore I wouldn’t call them prophets of any kind. They’re just secular people making a big mistake.
SPEAKER 07 :
Well, because, like, the idea that Jesus is the truth, He’s the way and the life, and they’re claiming to be part of that, which is the truth. This is the truth. We know this to be a fact. And that, I don’t think we should give so much credence to. That’s not my life goal. But yeah, what I called in for was this idea that you’ve said in the past that you don’t need the sacraments for salvation. And I think I think that could be unpacked. Just like an atheist might say, I don’t need thought for, and then fill in the blank, I would say happiness. They would say, I don’t need it for happiness, I don’t need it for fulfillment, so on and so forth. And I think that needs to be addressed. So this idea that I don’t need the sacraments for salvation, I would say that Jesus said that he who eats my flesh and drinks my blood has no life in him. This idea, if we are living in sin, if we are committing sin Not like, so in Catholicism you have venial yet mortal. If you’re committing venial, right, according to Catholicism, which is not breaking one of the Ten Commandments, which is like the catalog, you can still get to heaven. But if you are breaking the Ten Commandments, you know, if you’re committing lust, if you’re watching, you know, stuff you shouldn’t be watching, and there’s this idea that I’m asking God for help, I’m reading the Bible, I’m fasting, Right? There’s this idea that I’m doing all that I can, yet I’m still committing sins. And then so there’s where this dynamic comes in. It’s like, well, you know, we’re walking in the faith and we’re growing. And, of course, in time, we’re supposed to get to that goal. We’re supposed to.
SPEAKER 01 :
Okay. So what would your question be for me?
SPEAKER 07 :
My question is, do you personally fall into sin? Do you personally break one of the tens? And if so, wouldn’t that be like a reason to think that perhaps I do need this sacrament?
SPEAKER 01 :
Well, do I ever fall into sin? I have a high bar for what I consider to be holiness. If I get angry without a cause, I consider that sin. If I envy somebody, I consider that to be a sin. Now, as far as the Ten Commandments go, I don’t believe we’re under the Ten Commandments. That’s the old covenant. But as far as the spiritual nature of the Ten Commandments, like Jay said, if you’re angry at your brother without a cause, you know, it’s kind of like murder. Well, have I ever been angry at someone? Yeah, not very often. I don’t get angry easily, but I have been. I mean, I don’t know of any sins I commit on a regular basis, so I can’t say. But James said, we all stumble. And I think that stumbling means an interruption in our walk. We stumble into sin. So I think that we all do stumble. But sin is missing the mark. And to me, the mark is very high. To me, the mark is to be just like Jesus. I’m not satisfied with anything less than that. And I don’t reach that mark all the time. So… I have to say, yeah, I miss the mark sometimes. Now, you say, why shouldn’t I then think that I should take the sacraments? Well, I guess I would think I should if I thought the Bible said that that’s some kind of a remedy for stumbling. You know, I’ve known a lot of Roman Catholics. who take the sacraments. And I would not say that they are the people I’ve known who are the least sinful in their lives. Now, I’m not saying that Catholics, that there aren’t saintly Catholics. There are. There are also some really carnal Catholics and some very sinful Catholics and some nominal Catholics and so forth. And a lot of these actually do take the sacraments. and it doesn’t seem to change them from being sinners. And I’m not surprised because nothing in the Bible says that taking the sacrament would have any impact on your being a sinner or not. The Bible says if you walk in the Spirit, you will not fulfill the lust of the flesh in Galatians 5.16. So that’s what I believe is true, that if I stumble, if I sin, my problem is not that I didn’t take the sacrament. My problem is I didn’t walk in the Spirit. The Bible doesn’t anywhere say if you take a sacrament, you will not sin. But it does say if you walk in the Spirit, you won’t. So I guess that would be where I’d go. If you say, Steve, do you ever sin? Yeah, I guess I do. Okay, so why don’t you take the sacraments? Well, okay, if I thought that had some value, I would certainly if the Bible said to do it. But you’re talking only about the Eucharist, aren’t you? Are you talking about the other six sacraments too?
SPEAKER 07 :
I was mainly talking about the Eucharist. I was referring to what Jesus was saying, if you eat my flesh and drink my blood, you will have life. The idea is if you don’t, you don’t have life. And to respond to this idea of Catholics receiving the Eucharist… But I do.
SPEAKER 01 :
But I do eat his flesh and drink his blood. In exactly the sense that he meant it.
SPEAKER 07 :
Sure, sure. But there’s this idea also within Catholicism, right? Transubstantiation. And so if this, if you do it in your sense, in your idea of it, And it’s not helping to the sense of, like, helping you overcome these grave sins that could endanger one’s salvation, right?
SPEAKER 01 :
Well, I’ve never believed in transubstantiation simply because the Bible doesn’t teach it. But I would say this, and I don’t say this with any arrogance at all, but I would be glad to match up my Christian life with that of any Roman Catholic who takes the Eucharist every day. I mean, I know how I spend my days. I know what I do with my time, with my mind, and so forth. And, frankly, I’m not ashamed of it. And so I’m not really sure how there would be any motivation for me to think that I don’t have life. Now, Jesus said if you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you’ll have life. You’ll have eternal life. Well, I do that. And that’s why I have eternal life. But I don’t take the sacrament because the sacrament isn’t found in the Bible. When Jesus was saying those words that you’re quoting from John 6, nobody was taking the sacrament. He hadn’t died yet. He hadn’t even instituted the Lord’s Supper yet. It’d be another year after these statements were made in John 6 before he even instituted the Last Supper. And that’s what the Catholics think was the beginning of the sacrament. it’s obvious he was not talking about the sacrament because in John 6, if you’ll note, he uses the present tense verbs. Whoever is eating my flesh and whoever is drinking my blood has eternal life. That’s present tense. And yet he was talking a full year before anyone ever took what you call the sacraments. So he’s not talking about people sitting at it, eating a wafer and drinking a wine. He said whoever is doing these things has eternal life. And at that time, there were apparently people who were doing those things, including his disciples. But he was not referring to the sacraments. So I’m going to just have to not accept your premise there.
SPEAKER 07 :
I just… I didn’t think it was fair with this idea that because there are Catholics that receive and they’re not the best people, therefore I don’t think that is good because I think atheists have a similar view in the sense of like… Well, I’m not a basher of Catholics.
SPEAKER 01 :
I’m not a Catholic, but I’ve never been a Catholic basher either. I’m not trying to say Catholics are not good people. I’m saying that you can certainly find Catholics just like you can find people who have my beliefs who are not good people. Because being a Catholic doesn’t make you a good person necessarily. And if you don’t know that, you can read church history, read about the Middle Ages, where everybody in Western Europe was Catholic, and just see how good people they were. So, I mean, it’s not being a Catholic or a Protestant or Eastern Orthodox. Not any of those things make you a good person. What makes you behave well is if you’re a follower of Jesus walking in the Spirit. Now, some people who follow Jesus, they take the Eucharist, you know, every day. And some don’t ever take it. But that’s okay because walking with Jesus is what salvation is. Salvation is not conferred by what you put in your mouth. Neither are you condemned by what you put in your mouth. Jesus said it’s not what goes into a man’s mouth that defiles a man. Why? Because it goes right through him. He said what defiles a man is what comes out of his mouth because that comes from his heart. To me, the same principle applies. What you put into your mouth is not going to save you because it goes right through you. It has nothing to do with your heart. It’s what’s in your heart that matters to God. Now, what’s in your heart will be demonstrated by your Christ-like behavior. In other words, you can’t just say, well, I have a good heart even though I’m living sinfully. No, no, if you have a good heart, you’ll be doing good things. Jesus said a good tree will produce good fruit. If you’re a good tree, the fruit will be good. But he didn’t say anything in the world ever about taking the Eucharist. And so that’s, I guess you and I just have a different way of looking at that whole picture. But I appreciate your input, and you’re always welcome to call back. Okay, Junior from Antioch, California, welcome.
SPEAKER 03 :
I just have a different way of
SPEAKER 01 :
Junior, you need to be there when I’m talking to you or else I’m going to have to move on. Okay, go on. We’re going to talk to John from Orlando, Florida. Hi, John. Welcome to the Narrow Pass.
SPEAKER 06 :
Hey, Steve. How are you doing, brother?
SPEAKER 01 :
Good. Good to hear from you again.
SPEAKER 06 :
Good. Good talking with you. I say a big, big topic. I’ll try to be succinct. You know, my heart is a bit heavy on behalf of a friend of mine, dear brother. He’s really one of my closest friends. And over the years, we’ve had some fantastic conversations just exploring the mysteries of the Godhead and how they relate to one another. And, like, without controversy, great as a mystery. And, you know, one of the things that we’ve explored together is the unity of the Holy Spirit with the Father. Of course, you know, Yeah, the Holy Spirit is God. We know this. But, of course, we’ve talked about, hey, sometimes it seems like the Holy Spirit is spoken of in a way as to be synonymous with God and not clearly as distinct as a distinct person as some of the dogmas have said and the creeds have said in the past. It’s been a great exploration. And at the end of it, I don’t know that we’ve come to any answers or maybe more questions as we explore it. But we love the exploration. Okay, so he started to have a conversation like that with someone that he’s in fellowship with at his church, who then didn’t feel comfortable with his questions and approach to leadership. And the leadership, they were unsettled by his questions. not being settled on it.
SPEAKER 01 :
What kind of question? What direction were his questions tending? I don’t know. I don’t have any idea what his position was or what he’s asking about. What is he asking?
SPEAKER 06 :
It’s not an actual position, but it’s just a question of, hey, is the Holy Spirit distinctly a different person?
SPEAKER 03 :
Okay.
SPEAKER 06 :
Is he just simply the same person as the father? He’s like, I just don’t know. And their position was, hey, if you don’t know that yet, then it’s probably going to be best if you just step back from any kind of meaningful ministry. And I kind of have an idea, knowing you as I do, I have an idea as to what you might think about that. But I’m curious as to what your take is on that response of saying, hey, just step back until you have this settled.
SPEAKER 01 :
Well, if I were a church leader and he was coming to me like that, I might say you might want to step back from teaching about the Trinity until you know about the Trinity. But that doesn’t mean you don’t have anything to offer because the Trinity was not a doctrine that was thoroughly worked out in the church. until the fourth century or later. And that being so, that means there were three whole centuries of Christians, including Christian teachers, who hadn’t worked out the doctrine of the Trinity yet. That was something that happened over time. I’m not saying that it wasn’t true from the beginning, but they didn’t know it from the beginning. So I would advise against teaching on the Trinity until you have an understanding of the Trinity, but that doesn’t mean you don’t have anything to offer. The Holy Spirit’s main evidence in one’s life is love and Christlikeness in the life. And if a person loves Christ and has the fruit of the Spirit as a very dominant description of their conduct, then they have the Holy Spirit, whether they understand or not. You know, the disciples had Jesus a long time before they had a Trinity doctrine. And they began to follow Jesus from their discipleship days on earth with him. And they didn’t know he was God. They didn’t know exactly the nature of his relationship with the Father. They certainly didn’t know about the Holy Spirit and the Trinity. I mean, those are doctrines that people come to understand or not. later on. But that doesn’t mean they didn’t have a full relationship with Jesus, just because they didn’t fully understand the nature of the Godhead. They were totally committed to Jesus and doing his work. They were going out, casting out demons and healing the sick and preaching the gospel when he sent them out in two by two. So they didn’t have to understand all those things in order to be devoted to Christ. And I believe that a person doesn’t have to fully understand the nature of the Trinity or the Holy Spirit in order to be filled with the Spirit and in order to be used by the Spirit and gifted by the Spirit. So I don’t know of any place in the Bible where that says one of the qualifications for being a Christian or one of the qualifications for being useful to God is that you can expound accurately about the doctrine of the Holy Spirit. Now, I think obviously it’s valuable to know truth about the Holy Spirit or any other thing, but there are some truths that you simply can’t do without. And there are other truths that you can. Now, I’m not saying people can do without the Holy Spirit. There’s no way that a Christian can do without the Holy Spirit. But having the Holy Spirit is not the same thing as being able to explain the Holy Spirit or comprehend everything about the Holy Spirit. You know, God gives his Holy Spirit to people who are truly born again, whether they know that or not. If they’re well instructed, they will know that because someone will tell them. But the presence of the Holy Spirit in your life does not automatically bring with it a full understanding of the theology of the Godhead, or even of the Spirit himself, or even of Christ himself, because Christ himself is somebody that we get to know more and more as we live longer with him and meditate on the Word of God. So a full understanding of all these theological topics is not a prerequisite for being a good and spiritual Christian. Certainly having the Holy Spirit is, but understanding what it means to have the Holy Spirit, not necessarily. I mean, people have been useful to God with very many deficient theologies over the years. Yeah. All right.
SPEAKER 06 :
Hey, thanks a lot. I appreciate your thoughts on that.
SPEAKER 01 :
Okay, John, good talking to you. Our next caller is Doug from Prairie Grove, Arkansas. Hi, Doug. Welcome. Hello, Steve. Someone in the room here is saying hey to you.
SPEAKER 08 :
Oh, good. Well, hey to everyone there in the room. So this is an interesting question, I think, because it’s puzzled me a little bit, and I don’t know if you introduced it, And I looked at Matthew 713, which I love the new format, by the way. Thanks very much. Is that Steve that does the other Steve that maintains that website? The new format is wonderful. I’m able to find answers there. Okay.
SPEAKER 01 :
Yeah, Dana and the other Steve are involved in daily maintenance, but the actual design of the website is done by a brother in Pennsylvania. It’s wonderful. I love the new layout. No, in Ohio, right?
SPEAKER 08 :
Yeah, in Ohio. Yeah. In this case, I was not able to find anything that helped me, and it’s this. Hebrews 1-7 and Psalm 104-4. The writer of Hebrews quotes the psalm, and they’re really kind of different, and it’s a little troubling to me. You talk briefly about it in your Hebrews lecture. But the psalm passage, he’s really, really evident and clear that he’s talking about the creative forces of nature. I agree. God controls all these things, including lightning and wind.
SPEAKER 03 :
Yes.
SPEAKER 08 :
Which is how some translations do that psalm passage. But the Hebrews writer takes the wind part and makes it spirit and the… messenger into angel and makes it about angels, which is really hard for me to reconcile. So that’s you, is how do you reconcile that apparent difference?
SPEAKER 01 :
Well, it is an issue because the writer of Hebrews quotes a lot of scripture, but he always quotes it from the Septuagint, which is, of course, you know, the Greek version of the Old Testament. And there are places in the Septuagint where the wording is different. However, I’m not sure why it would be in this passage because the word angels can mean spirits, can mean messengers, or can mean angels. And likewise, his ministers can mean servants or something else. Now, you’re right. In Psalm 104, what I understand from the context of that psalm in the Hebrew is he’s saying that he makes the winds his messengers. And he makes the flames of fire his servants. Because it’s talking about God’s sovereignty over nature and so forth. Now, obviously, the Septuagint seems to have it different, and the writer of Hebrews seems to take it differently. But, you know, I’ve always thought that words like angels and spirits, since they can mean things like messengers and winds, might on occasion be intended to have a double meaning. You know, they might work either way. Like when Jesus said the wind… You know, you don’t know where it comes from or where it goes, but so are those who are born of the Spirit. Well, you could render that the Spirit, you don’t know where the Spirit comes from or where it goes. And both translations would be legitimate, but they obviously are different meanings. To say you don’t know where the wind comes from or where it goes is saying something different than saying you don’t know where the Spirit comes from or where it goes. Yet the phrase, the verse can mean either one. And I have to wonder whether God deliberately, in some cases, has made statements like that that could go either way because both ways are true. I have to say, though, that I would have not, you know, if I was talking to the writer of Hebrews and he said, I’m thinking about using this verse this way, I mean, I guess I would be wrong, but I’d say, you know, I’m not sure that’s what that verse is saying.
SPEAKER 08 :
Yeah, you’re putting your thumb right on the issue, right? The writer of Hebrews… by being spirit-inspired, confirms the authenticity of what really looks like a really sketchy translation. And it’s just very difficult for me to wrap my head around that.
SPEAKER 01 :
Yeah, I know. And, you know, I have to say, the New Testament writers almost always, when they cited the Old Testament, more often than not, they cited the Septuagint. And the writer of Hebrews invariably did. He never quotes except from the Septuagint. Now, most Jews… In the Roman world, when this was being written, we’re reading the Septuagint. Most didn’t read Hebrew anymore. They read the Greek. And so the Septuagint was what everybody was reading. And it’s even possible that many of the readers of the original New Testament didn’t know what the Hebrew text said. And we don’t know who wrote Hebrews, so we don’t even know if he knew the Hebrew text.
SPEAKER 08 :
Give me just a moment more. What’s the case then for… If the Septuagint translation is correct of Psalm 104, what is the writer? I don’t know if it’s a Davidic psalm or not. What’s he saying there about that he makes the angels spirits or he makes the messengers spirits? I don’t. I don’t even get that.
SPEAKER 01 :
I’m with you, Doug. Your brain works the same as mine. I’ve always had some issues with that. What does it even mean, the way it’s rendered here? To say he makes the winds his messengers is a sensible meaning. But he makes his angels… Yeah, exactly. But he makes his angels spirits use the same words, because spirits can mean winds, and angels can mean messengers. But just take it in that statement. He makes his angels spirits. What’s that mean? Does it mean they weren’t spirits? They weren’t spirits, and he made them into spirits? Or he created them as spirits? It’s really hard to say. I think what he’s suggesting here is that it’s suggesting that the angels are created spirits, unlike… The son, who in the next verse is described as God, you know, in verse eight says, but to the son, he says, your throne, oh, God is forever and ever. So I think he’s he may be simply trying to say the angels are created beings, as it says he made his angels spirits. You know, he made them as spirits.
SPEAKER 08 :
But I guess that doesn’t work because that still incorporates the created forces that all the forces of nature created by him and not his will.
SPEAKER 01 :
Yes, I mean, the angels are created beings too, and so he’s still the Lord and sovereign over all the creation, including the spiritual creation. Again, I think the writer of Hebrews may be aware that he’s, it’s sort of like if you were reading the Living Bible or something like that, or the New Living Translation, and you know that the verse isn’t exactly what the original said, but You could use it that way, and it’s not bringing out any false teaching from it. It would be sketchy. Sketchy pastors may do this more often than they should. But I think the use of the Septuagint by the New Testament writers, many people thought that might even be an endorsement of the Septuagint. even over the Hebrew text as we have it. Because even though the Hebrew was, I mean, the Old Testament was originally written in Hebrew, but we don’t have the original documents. It’s possible that the translators of the Septuagint had, well, they certainly had earlier Hebrew copies than we have. And they may have translated them more accurately than those Hebrew copies were later copied for our access. So, I mean… It’s a hard thing. You’re asking a hard question, and I’ve had the same question myself. You know, why does he take it that way? And I think the answer probably is that he recognizes these words are ambiguous. They can be seen either way. I personally would have advised him if he was asking me, but it’s probably just so that he didn’t. I would advise him. I think in the Hebrew passage of Psalm 104, it’s meaning something different than that. from the context, I’d think so. But on the other hand, I couldn’t say, but the way it’s rendered in the Septuagint is false, you know. So I would be inclined to say, yeah, it can mean both. And using it this way is the way that, you know, it’s going to work for what you want.
SPEAKER 08 :
I suspect you’ve given the best answer that can be given on that passage because it’s a little thorny. It is thorny.
SPEAKER 01 :
It is thorny. Hey, Doug, I love you, man. I’ve got to run. Go talk to somebody else. Thank you, Steve. I can’t talk to anyone else. I’m out of time. But it’s good talking to you, brother.
SPEAKER 07 :
All right. Bye.
SPEAKER 01 :
Okay. We’ll talk again. Bye now. That Doug is a relative of mine through marriage. All right. The rest of you who didn’t make it on, I’m sorry. We do run out of time many days before we run out of callers. But we will be on again, Lord willing, tomorrow. And hopefully you can call early enough we can get to you because we don’t like to not get to any callers. You’re listening to The Narrow Path. We’re on Monday through Friday at the same time. We are listener supported. We don’t have anything to do with our money except that we give it to radio stations so you can listen to us on the radio. Or someone can. You may be listening on our app. Anyway, if you’d like to help us stay on the air, you can write to us or you can go to our website. The website has our address. The website is thenarrowpath.com. Thanks for joining us. Let’s talk tomorrow.
