In this episode of The Narrow Path, Steve Gregg dives deep into the complexities of dispensationalism and the promises made to Israel in the Bible. Through a series of insightful calls, we explore how these promises are interpreted across different theological perspectives. A thoughtful discourse on the early church fathers’ beliefs offers historical context to modern interpretations.
SPEAKER 01 :
Good afternoon and welcome to the Narrow Path radio broadcast. My name is Steve Gregg and we are live for an hour each weekday afternoon. We have an open phone line for you, but it’s not really open now because the lines are full. But throughout the hour, you know, lines will be filling in, emptying all the way through the hour. And basically, we do have our phone lines available for you to try. If you try now, you get a busy signal. But, you know, try in a few minutes and there will be lines opening up. The number to call is 844-484-5737. I should probably start announcing at this point that on Wednesday we have our monthly Zoom meeting. Wednesday night. This is for anybody around the world to want to join us. You can find out how to log in on that meeting by going to our website, thenarrowpath.com. Under the tab that says announcements, you have the login codes. And that’s at 7 p.m. Pacific time this Wednesday. And it’s a Q&A, an open Q&A on Zoom. All right, we’re going to go to the lines. The lines are full, as I said, so we’ll take our first caller today, Ryan from Brighton, Michigan. Welcome to The Narrow Path, Ryan. Ryan, excuse me.
SPEAKER 04 :
Hi, Sean. Good afternoon. Hey, I have two quick questions, if I can ask them. I listened to your debate with David Preston, and I found his views very difficult to follow, very confusing, but… He made a comment that Galatians 3.29 says promise singular as to exclude Gentiles from receiving the promise of the land, yet Galatians 3.16 uses promises plural, describing those in Christ, i.e. Christians. So it seems like the dispensationalist doctrine in many churches today teach that the promise of the land only applies to the Jewish people, whether they are believers in Christ or reject him. Yet Paul makes very clear in Romans 9-11 and Galatians 3 that those in the seed, who is Christ, inherit the promises. Now, I’m not a dispensationalist, but my question is, if we follow dispensationalism to its logical end, that the promise of the land of Canaan still applies today, wouldn’t the land of Israel belong to Christians now since we inherit the promises through Christ? Or would the interpretation of the scriptures point to us waiting for Christ to return before we receive those promises today?
SPEAKER 01 :
Well, you know, first of all, in verse 29 of Galatians 3, where it says that if you are Christ, then you are Abraham’s seed and heirs according to the promise singular. This is talking about the dominant promise that God made to Abraham that through his seed, all the nations of the earth shall be blessed. It’s not referring to promises that were made to the Jews, like to possess the land or to have a military protection from God or to have droughtless agricultural seasons and things like that. Those are promises God made under the old covenant to the Jewish people. But the promise that God made Abraham is that his seed would be a blessing to all nations. Now, The Jews considered themselves to be the heirs, according to the promise. Paul’s statement is, well, actually Christ is the heir, according to the promise. And if we’re in Christ, we are too, because we are one in Christ. We’re one body in Christ. That’s Paul’s thinking. Now, as far as the promise of the land, the land was never really offered specifically. The land of Israel, or Canaan, was never specifically offered to anyone other than Israel in the promises that are given. But it was offered to him conditionally. He made it very clear that if they break his covenant, he would remove them from the land. In Leviticus, he said to them in chapter 18 that, you know, the Canaanites who lived in the land before them had committed all kinds of abominable acts. And he says, because of that, God said, I’ve caused the land to vomit them out. And then he said, okay, Israel, I’m giving the land to you now, but don’t you do the things the Canaanites did, because if you do, I’ll cause the land to vomit, you ought to. In other words, they don’t have an unconditional grant to the land any more than the Canaanites did. If you behave like the Canaanites, you’ll be treated like the Canaanites. God gives land to different people. The Bible says that he gave the Edomites, you know, the land that they were in, Mount Seir. And he gave different, he told, Daniel told Nebuchadnezzar that God had given him all the nations to be part of his empire. But that’s not permanent. There’s no promises of God about that kind of thing that are permanent and unconditional. Because Jeremiah makes it very clear in Jeremiah chapter 18, verses 7 through 10. God says the instant I make a threat against the land that I’ll destroy them. If they repent of their evil, I will repent of the evil I said I do. I won’t destroy them. But he said, whenever I make a promise to a land or a people to build them up and bless them and so forth, if they turn from their righteousness and do evil, I will repent of the good things I said to them. In other words, any promises or threats he makes to a people. Remember, through Jonah, he threatened to destroy Nineveh in 40 days. But they repented, and it says God repented of what he said he’d do, and he didn’t destroy them. So he’s saying, yeah, that’s the way I am. You know, if I’m going to kill, if I’m going to wipe someone out, but they repent, I’ll change. I won’t do it. And the other way, too, if I promise I’ll bless the people and build them up and treat them specially, if they treat me badly, If they violate my ways, I’m going to repent of all the good things I said to do. So God never gave them unconditional grant to the land. If you read Deuteronomy 28, Moses told them. The whole chapter is about this. The first 14 verses, or 15, he says, you know, if you keep all my laws and you keep this covenant, I’m going to bless you all these ways. He lists a long list of ways that God will bless them if they’re obedient. But around verse 50, he says, but if you break my commandments, if you violate my covenant, if you rebel against me, then I’ll curse you in all the same ways. All the places you would have been blessed, you’ll be cursed. And then he goes on and on about that. It’s a very long chapter. And at one point, verse 63, he says, I will destroy you from the land that I gave you to inherit. In other words, you won’t be in there anymore. You’ll be destroyed. So God did promise Israel that particular piece of land. But it was not unconditional. In fact, he stated many times it was conditional and that they could certainly lose it. And they did. And that’s why, you know, they were driven out in A.D. 70 by the Romans. And, you know, they were gone for hundreds of years. And for the most part, they still are. Many people say, oh, well, in 1948, God restored the land and brought the Jews back. Not completely. First of all, they don’t have all the land that they once had. Secondly, fewer than half. of the Jews in the world live there. There’s almost as many Jews living in America as there are in Israel. I mean, the world’s Jewry is fairly divided between the land of Israel at this point and the rest of the world, so that it’s kind of absurd to say that God has brought them all back to their land. There’s a lot of them there. By the way, after the October 7th thing, A lot of news reports reported that thousands and thousands of Jews were leaving the land and going back to their other lands they’d come from before they went to Israel. I don’t know how it stands now. It doesn’t really matter how it stands. But the point is God has not restored the land of Israel. The land of Israel in the Bible is a land populated by a people who are in covenant with God. And the modern Jews in Israel don’t have any covenant with God. Fewer than 20% of them are even religious. And fewer than 2% of them are Christian. So, I mean, this is a land that’s largely secular. They have no covenant with God. There’s no temple. This is not what is in the Bible. There never was an Israel like that. The only Israel in the Bible was a covenant people established by a covenant Mount Sinai and with a temple right at the center where everyone went to worship Yahweh. When that was destroyed in 70 AD, that’s never been returned. And you can have a secular nation there as you do now, but that’s not a restoration of what Israel was in the Bible. So this idea that the Jews get the land no matter what. Well, God didn’t say that. God said the opposite. He said, you’ll get the land if you keep my covenant. They didn’t. So he said, the land will vomit them out. It did. Now, I’m not making this up. I like all the Jewish people I know very well. I’m not against Israel. I just, I’m a Bible teacher. I didn’t write the Bible. I just have to teach what’s there. And that’s what is there. Now, what about us Christians? Are we the seed of Abraham? Do we inherit that land? Not that land particularly. Jesus said to his disciples, blessed are you meek. The meek shall inherit the earth. The Bible says, and that’s Matthew 5.5, the Bible says in Romans 4.13, that God’s promise to Abraham and his seed was that they would inherit the world. In other words, not just the land of Canaan, the whole world. It says in Psalm 2, verse 8, God told the Messiah, ask of me and I’ll give you the nations for your inheritance and the uttermost parts of the world for your possession. So, excuse me, Jesus and his people inherit the whole world. Does that include that little stretch of land smaller than New Jersey on the, you know, eastern bank of the Mediterranean? Yeah, that’s part of the world, too. That’ll be there, too. But it’s not the most desirable property on the planet. But it’s, you know, God’s going to remake the whole world. There’ll be no more curse. And, yeah, that land and the rest of the world will belong to Christ and whoever his people. Some of those people will be Jews and some will be Gentiles because that’s the way it is. Those people who follow Christ are a certain percentage of Jews, a certain percentage of Gentiles. But as far as a nation of Jews alone having that land, that ship has sailed. God gave it to them. They did not keep the conditions he said they would have to keep to keep it. He said they’d be driven out of it. They were. And they really haven’t come back. Yeah, there’s some people there. Most of the Jews still are not back. And what is there, if they went back to it, is not what was there before. It’s not a covenant nation. And that’s the only thing that made Israel different than any other nation was the covenant. They don’t have that anymore. So I’m not against Israel. But if people try to say certain things that the Bible doesn’t say, I think we ought to double check that. That is, when it comes to inheriting the land, I don’t believe I’m going to inherit the land of Israel, but I believe that I and all other people who are in Christ will share with him in the rule of the world.
SPEAKER 04 :
I believe that as well, and I was just really trying to understand how dispensational it is to reconcile the in Christ, the seed, and certain promises applying certain admonitions. I find it interesting that the earliest church fathers were Many were premillennial, but they actually identified the church with Israel. I haven’t dug into understanding all the details, how they understood end times, but I’m trying to figure out how did that work.
SPEAKER 01 :
Right. The first three centuries, many of the church fathers, maybe most of them, were what we call historic premillennial. And that means they did believe there would be a millennium. And some of them even believed that in the end times, the Jews would come back to the land. But they didn’t believe that this was what dispensationalists say. See, dispensationalists say the Jews are still God’s chosen people, even if they reject Christ and reject God. The early church didn’t believe that. I mean, I should say the church fathers, they believed that the Antichrist was going to bring the Jews back to the land. That’s what Irenaeus said. That’s what Hippolytus said. This was their view. Now, not all the church fathers believed Israel would come back to their land in the end of times, but the few who did say something about it said the Antichrist would do it. It was not a fulfillment of some promise that God had left unfulfilled. They believed, as I do, that Jesus was the fulfillment of the promises. They believed that the church was the continuation of Israel. Of course, the church primarily was made up of Jews initially, the faithful remnant of Israel. It continued on. in Christ, and then Gentiles were allowed to be part of it, just like they were in the Old Testament, by the way. Old Testament people could be, Gentile could become part of Israel. But they considered that the church in Jerusalem, who were all Jews, they were the new Israel. They were the Israel of the new covenant. And that’s who they are. And that’s who the Jews today who are in the new covenant are, and so are we Gentiles who have been grafted in as branches among them. So, really, what we call the church, which in the Greek is ekklesia, is what Israel was called in the Old Testament. In the Greek Old Testament, Israel was referred to as the Ekklesia in passages where they’re usually translated in English to the congregation. So the Bible doesn’t make any real distinction between Israel in the Old Testament and the church, except that in the Old Testament they were defined by the Old Covenant. And in the New Testament, God has made a new covenant with the remnant of Israel and made them into the people of Christ. And, of course, in both cases, the Old and the New Covenant, Gentiles have been permitted to become part of it. That was true at Mount Sinai. It’s true here now. So it’s not that the church replaced Israel. It’s just that the church was the continuation of Israel. It didn’t replace it. So it’s like a little boy who grows up into a man. The man is not really replacing the boy. Kind of he is, but he’s the same person. So it’s not as if the little boy was destroyed or something, and a man has stepped in place where he used to be. The man is what the boy anticipated being. And the church in Christ is what the prophets led Israel to anticipate being. It’s just when the Messiah came, many of them didn’t participate. They didn’t want him. And so they didn’t come in. But the faithful continued to follow God, this time through Christ. Now, I don’t know how dispensatious would argue this. about a Jewish Christian. I always wondered that. Even when I was a dispensationalist, it was kind of hard to understand because they would argue that God has a special covenant with the Jews and a different covenant continuing with the church. But what about Paul and the apostles who were Jews who were in the church? Which covenant do they get? I think they would say the new covenant. But if so, why shouldn’t they just stay with the old covenant if they’re Jews? And if that covenant with the Jews is good, why should the apostles who are Jews… Leave that behind. The book of Hebrews says in Hebrews 8.13 that they leave it behind because where there’s a new covenant, the old covenant is obsolete. And so there’s not two covenants. There’s not a covenant with the Jews and a covenant with the church that’s validated. There’s only one covenant at a time, just like a man can legitimately only have one wife at a time or a wife can only have one husband at a time. They can’t be in two different covenants with two different parties at the same time. So I understand a lot of people have trouble understanding this stuff. You have probably listened, though many of our listeners probably have not, to my lecture series called What Are We to Make of Israel? This goes into all the relevant scriptures about the subject. For those who don’t know, at our website, all our lectures are free. You can listen to them free. If you go to thenarrowpath.com and look under Topical Lectures, there’s a series called What Are We to Make of Israel? And that explains these things a little better, a little less quickly than I did just now. Ryan, I appreciate your call. I need to move on. Bill in Los Angeles, welcome to The Narrow Path. Thanks for calling.
SPEAKER 02 :
All right. Thank you very much. I have a question about 1 Corinthians chapter 15, verse 3 and 4. Briefly, it says, For I delivered to you first of all that which I also received, that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, and that He was buried, and that He rose again the third day according to the Scriptures. At the time Paul wrote this, the only Scriptures that were in effect were the Tanakh, or the what’s called the Old Testament.
SPEAKER 07 :
Right.
SPEAKER 02 :
I looked it up. That stuff is not in, according to the Scriptures, none of that stuff’s in the Scriptures. None.
SPEAKER 01 :
Well, that’s not what the disciples would have said. They backed everything up.
SPEAKER 02 :
Well, where is it then?
SPEAKER 01 :
Well, which part? The part about the Messiah dying for our sins? That’s in Isaiah 53. Pretty clearly there.
SPEAKER 02 :
Actually, not clearly at all. It doesn’t say it’s about the Messiah at all.
SPEAKER 01 :
Well, if you’re Jewish, yeah.
SPEAKER 02 :
Clearly, it’s about the same.
SPEAKER 01 :
Okay. If you’re Jewish, then you would say the servant of Yahweh that is being spoken of in that passage is symbolic of the nation of Israel. because in many places in Isaiah, prior to chapter 53, Israel is referred to as the servant of Yahweh. But the servant of Yahweh in Isaiah 53 isn’t Israel. It is somebody who takes on Israel’s sins. Isaiah 53, 6 says, All we, like sheep, have gone astray, but the Lord laid on him the iniquity of us all. He says, Isaiah says, For the iniquity of my people… You know, he suffered this way. Now, if he is Israel, then who is speaking about him as taking on their sins? Israel didn’t take on the sins of the world. You know, this is the rabbis. Of course, I don’t know if you’re Jewish or not, but rabbis do not all agree about the interpretation of very many passages. In fact, my Jewish friends have a saying where there’s three Jews, there’s four opinions. And it’s very uncommon to have an Old Testament passage that all Jewish rabbis see exactly the same way. But apparently many in the time of Christ and before… many Jews did see the servant of Yahweh in Isaiah 53 as a messianic reference. And some probably did not. I know almost all Orthodox Jews today would say it’s referring to Israel collectively as the servant. And, of course, that became the standard view of most rabbis after the Christians began to identify Jesus as the fulfillment of that, and the rabbis didn’t want to recognize that, so they said, no, that’s not the Messiah. But before Jesus was in the picture, before there was any pressure on them to deny it, many rabbis believed that was about the Messiah.
SPEAKER 02 :
When it says he was buried and he rose again on the third day, where is that in the Scriptures?
SPEAKER 01 :
Well, we might have to ask Paul which ones he had in mind, but Jesus likened it to… I don’t think we can ask Paul, because Paul died 2,000 years ago. Right. And let’s not be hostile here. I’m saying that we can someday ask Paul if we happen to go where he went. And I know I’m going to. I hope you are, too. But until then, we don’t have to know, but we can speculate. There are places in the Old Testament that foreshadow, at least, Jesus rising on the third day. Jesus himself identified the story of Noah as a type and a picture of his own death and resurrection. As Noah was three days and three nights in the belly of the fish, so shall the Son of Man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth. That’s Old Testament. Hosea chapter 6 verse 1 talks about on the third day he will raise us up, which is a statement which some people, not all, believe is a reference to we are raised up in Christ on the third day. It’s hard to know exactly all the passages that Paul might have had in mind, but we know, for example, that both Peter and Paul saw the resurrection of Jesus in Psalm 16. Psalm 16, at the end of the psalm, David said, I have set the Lord always before me. He’s at my right hand. He says, He will not leave my soul in Hades, or Sheol in the Old Testament. He will not let his holy ones see corruption, that is, decay. Now, Peter understood that to mean that Jesus’ body did not experience decay because he rose from the dead rather than rotting in the grave. And Paul quoted that same verse independently in Acts 13. Peter quoted it in Acts 2. So we have at least those scriptures that the apostles agreed. Those were about the resurrection. Like I said, the third day, Jesus himself identified Jonah as a picture of himself. And Paul no doubt thought, well, Jesus rising on the 30th is according to that picture in Jonah, according to the scriptures. So, you know, there are scriptures that at least Christians, now not all Jews, because by the way, you have to realize that Jewish people who are devoted Orthodox Jews have a vested interest in these not being about Jesus. If these are about Jesus, then Orthodox Judaism is done. Because it’s been replaced by the Messiah. Orthodox Judaism looks forward to a Messiah. But if he came 2,000 years ago, there’s nothing more to look forward to for them. And might as well just become Christians. Follow the Messiah. But if a Jew doesn’t want to do that, they will deny these Christian interpretations. However, we can’t say that the way the Christians interpreted them in the Bible when they quoted these passages… was necessarily contrary to the way that the Jews of the time saw them. The rejection of this Jewish interpretation became very vigorous among the Jews once Jesus credibly appeared to be the fulfillment of them, and they didn’t want him to be. So, I mean, I’m not sure where you’re at. I don’t know if you’re Jewish or atheist or Christian or whatever you are. But when you say, well, the Old Testament doesn’t have any of this stuff. Well, the apostles thought it did, and they quoted a lot of it. So… You know, you can say, well, I don’t trust what the apostles thought of things. Well, that certainly is your prerogative. But when Paul said Jesus died for our sins according to the Scriptures, he was buried and erased on the third day according to the Scriptures, Paul did have the Old Testament Scriptures in mind. You’re right. That was the only Scriptures he knew was the Old Testament. And he had certain instances in mind. I think I’ve identified some of them for you. You could say, well, he was wrong about those. Well, I’m sure you wouldn’t be the only one who thought so. But I think he was right. So anyway, I appreciate your call, Bill. Thanks for joining us. Okay, another Ryan from Spartanburg, South Carolina this time. Hi, Ryan. Welcome.
SPEAKER 05 :
Hey Steve, thank you. I went to a new church here and the pastor was preaching about Daniel 10 and he said, he was preaching about being in a season of waiting and he was saying that Daniel’s prayers during the 21 days of fasting, I believe, had expedited the angel’s ability to come and speak to him. And I was really, I thought that was pretty profound. I’d never heard about that before, that our prayers can expedite spiritual warfare and And so I went to read the passage myself, and I didn’t see anything in there that said that. I just had two questions. My first one was if that is anywhere in the Bible that our prayers are somehow expediting or helping in the spiritual warfare, kind of behind the veil, if you will. And my second question is what kind of inferences can we make from Daniel 10 that there are demon princes? that are occupying positions of authority over whole nations and kingdoms?
SPEAKER 01 :
Right. Now, Daniel 10, for those who don’t know, is a time when Daniel was praying and fasting for 21 days. And it took that long for him to get any kind of answer from God. And finally, an angel or a being, a supernatural being, arrived. And he told Daniel, he says, when you first began to set your face to pray and to fast… He said, I was sent. God sent me that day, which, of course, was 21 days earlier. So why didn’t he get there until 21 days earlier? You know, was there bad traffic or what? He says, well, I was resisted by the prince of Persia. And he resisted me. And he detained me for these 21 days. And he says, and then Michael, your prince, meaning another angelic being, was sent. And he is now wrestling with the prince of Persia. And I’ve gotten through to you. And after I give you this message, I’ve got to go back and help Michael. And so this warfare is going on. I think all people agree that prince of Persia is referenced to a demonic principality. Now, you ask, are there such things? Are there principalities, demonic overnations? Well, many people think so. This is where you get the whole teaching about territorial spirits. And I’m just getting started here, and our music is breaking up. We’ve got another half hour coming. Let me take a break. I’ll keep you on hold, and I’ll get back to your question after this break. This is a hard break. I can’t talk through it. So let me put you on hold, Ryan, and we’ll come back to you in about 90 seconds. You’re listening to the Narrow Path Radio Broadcast Network. My name is Steve Gregg, and we are live Monday through Friday doing this thing that we’re doing here. And we are listener supported. If you’d like to help us pay the radio bills, you can write to The Narrow Path, PO Box 1730, Temecula, California, 92593. Or just go to our website, thenarrowpath.com. I’ll be back in 30 seconds.
SPEAKER 03 :
www.thenarrowpath.com
SPEAKER 01 :
Welcome back to the Narrow Path radio broadcast. My name is Steve Gregg. We have another half hour ahead. Take in your calls if you have questions about the Bible or the Christian faith that you care to call in about. We’ll talk about them with you. If you have a different opinion than that of the host, we always welcome that. You can call me at this number, 844-484-5737. And by the way, we have one line open right now. So let me encourage you to call now if you want to get in before the show’s over. I hope you can do that. 844-484-5737 is the number. Now, we were talking to Ryan from Spartanburg, South Carolina, just before the break, and his question was about Daniel 10, that story where Daniel’s praying for three weeks, and then an angel came through to bring him a prophetic word, but explained that he had been locked into conflict with apparently a demonic power whom he identifies as the principality of Persia. And so the question is, did Daniel’s prayers help expedite this angel’s being able to get past the prince of Persia and bring the answer to Daniel’s prayer? And should we conclude that there are these demonic powers over nations? Well, we have to remember that when Daniel was praying, the Persian Empire governed the entire Middle East and parts of Europe and Asia and so forth. It was the largest world empire at the time, the Persian Empire. And the angel actually mentioned, he said, when I go away, the prince of Greece is going to come. Now, of course, the Grecian kingdom under Alexander the Great defeated the Persian empire. So it sounds like there were these series of empires. Each one of them was somehow associated with some demonic oversight. Now, we don’t know exactly what the relation is to those things. While Persia was the dominant pagan empire, this demonic prince of Persia was apparently active or somehow relevant. Later, when Alexander conquered the Persians and now the Grecian empire was the world empire, there was another demonic principality called the prince of Grecian. And I think we should probably assume, though it doesn’t go on to say it, that when the Roman Empire conquered the Greek Empire, there would be a third, another demonic power called the Prince of Rome. But I don’t know if that means that every nation has a territorial spirit assigned to it, or if it’s only the case that certain nations do, and they’re the ones that rise up to power and rule the world for a season. I don’t know much about that. And the only reason is we’re not told much. We’re told almost nothing. So we could speculate about things, and some Christians speculate much more than I’m willing to do. Some people say there’s a territorial spirit over every nation, over every county, every city. Some say there’s one over every home, and so forth. This is 100% speculation. All we know is that Daniel was told there was a principality of Persia during that time, which the Persian Empire was, and that there was going to be a principality of Grecian, and we know that the Grecian Empire conquered that one. So That’s what we have. Speculation is everything else that we have on it. And it may be that some people’s speculations will turn out to be true, but if only accidentally, because we just don’t know. Anyone who teaches confidently about that is going beyond the perimeters of their authority. But they could be right. They may be guessing incorrectly. or not. I don’t really teach anything that I have to guess about. But when it comes to the question, did Daniel’s prayers expedite this angel getting past the Prince of Persia, I’m going to say I think so. You’re right. It doesn’t say that that was true. It doesn’t say that was true. But prayer is in the Bible represented as a major function of spiritual warfare. And our spiritual warfare is against demonic powers in the world. Daniel was praying and fasting. It doesn’t say that his prayer and fasting had any impact on it. And he, when he’s praying and fasting, did not himself even know about this thing going on up there. He didn’t know about angels and demons and so forth. He had no idea. He’s just praying to God. But in praying to God, God sent relief. However, the demonic powers put up an obstacle and tried to prevent Daniel from receiving the answer to his prayer. But I’m going to say it’s, I believe it’s because Daniel kept praying and kept fasting that reinforcements were sent. Michael was sent to help. And now I’m saying, I’m going beyond, I’m going beyond what’s actually stated. But what I’m saying is not quite as speculative as what I was talking about, you know, whether there’s territorial spirits over every nation. You know, it seems connected. It at least correlates. And we realize that correlation is not the same thing as causation. So if the fact that Daniel prayed and fasted for 21 days didn’t cause Michael to come into health and didn’t cause this angel to be able to get past the demonic resistance… it at least correlated with it. So I can say that the two things happened at the same time in connection with each other. I think the easiest way to speculate would be probably Daniel’s prayer and fasting did have an impact on it. Because the Bible always says that prayer, A, is effective, that God listens to prayer, but it also suggests that the devil… is the one who resists us and that our prayers are, you know, accomplishing something. It doesn’t tell us specifically everything they’re accomplishing, but it would be consistent with what we do know about prayer to suggest that if the demons are trying to prevent something from happening, something that God wants to happen, a person who’s persevering in prayer is likely to summon the additional power necessary for it to happen. Now, again, there’s a measure of speculation, but it’s not a stretch. And therefore, the pastor you heard who said that Daniel’s prayers did have an impact, I’m going to be kind of on his side about that. I think it’s likely. We could say there’s a measure of uncertainty about it, but the way it’s reported, I think there’s some, there certainly is correlation. And in my opinion, since what the Bible says about prayer as part of our warfare in general, for example, Ephesians 6, verse 18, where it’s talking about the armor of God and so forth, And other places. Remember, Jesus said to Peter, Satan has desired to defeat you, but I have prayed for you. You’re not going to be defeated because I’m praying for you. I’m coming against the devil about this. It’s a very common thing for prayer to be seen as a weapon in spiritual warfare against demonic powers in general. So I’m going to say I think it probably was in that case, too. I mean, Daniel was no ordinary guy. When he was thrown to the lions later on by Darius, he was praying also. And God sent an angel to protect him from the lions, the Bible says. So I think Daniel’s prayers were probably perfect. more effective than the average Christians have been, but the implication, I believe, if it doesn’t say that right, is that, yeah, his prayers probably were involved in that conflict and in a proper outcome of it. All right?
SPEAKER 05 :
Thank you. We appreciate you.
SPEAKER 01 :
Okay, Ryan. Thanks. Joshua from Phoenix, Arizona. Welcome to The Narrow Path. Thanks for calling.
SPEAKER 06 :
Hello, Steve. Hey. Nice to talk to you again. So I’ve been thinking about this, what you said, this idea that we’re not going to be judged based on our knowledge of God. And I’m trying to understand you more because I think I kind of understand where you’re coming from, like this idea that we just need to know the basics and we don’t need to get into the stuff that we don’t need to know for salvation, so to speak. And what matters is that we love God and love neighbor based on the teachings of Christ. Is that kind of your position?
SPEAKER 01 :
Close. I’m glad you gave me the opportunity to clarify. By the way, I put you on hold because there’s so much noise in your background. I’m going to put you back on, but if you can find a quieter place at all, it makes it better for broadcasting. But my position is not, I mean, you said that I believe that we won’t be judged by our knowledge of God. My position is we won’t be judged on the basis of how thoroughly and completely and accurately we know God. For the simple reason there’s things about God that aren’t revealed to us clearly, and we simply, again, we’re supposed to know what we’re told. You know, it says in Deuteronomy 29, 29, it says the secret things belong to the Lord. But the things he’s revealed are for us and for our children that we might learn to do all the works of this law. So God has things he hasn’t revealed, and those belong to him, not us. But what he has revealed belongs to us. Now, he hasn’t revealed everything there is to know about himself, so people have theories about things that aren’t revealed, and those theories cannot be counted on to be always correct. But being wrong about some of those things doesn’t mean you’re going to be marked off some points on the exam when you stand before God. Knowing everything is not as important to God as our loving him, loving each other, and being, of course, submitted to him and seeking to please him and obey him. Those are the big issues. And the Bible, whenever the Bible talks about the judgment, and it does frequently, and many people speak about it, Paul does, Jesus does, James does, John does, Peter does. In the writings, they all speak about the judgment, and every single one of them says we’ll be judged by our works. Now, that doesn’t mean that we don’t have to know God, but it doesn’t also suggest that we’ll be judged by the exact rectitude of our theology. If so, then the smart people will be saved and the dumb people will not be saved because the smart people have better theology. God doesn’t have a prejudice toward smart people against dumb people. He has a prejudice toward people who are humble and who love him. So that’s what I would say. Now I’m going to put you back on here, but I hope there’s not so much noise. Go ahead.
SPEAKER 06 :
Yeah, sorry about the loud noise in the background. I am on the bus, so I won’t be talking too much. I’ll just give you the scripture, verse John 17, 3, just in kind of where I’m coming from, this idea of life.
SPEAKER 01 :
This is eternal life, but they might know you’re the only true God.
SPEAKER 06 :
Yeah.
SPEAKER 01 :
Yeah, I agree. This is eternal life. That we may know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom we have sent. That’s what Jesus said. I agree. Knowing God. But knowing God and knowing about God are very different things. It never mattered to me if my children were able to tell me what my blood pressure was or tell me what my ancestry was in my DNA or what I’m thinking at any given moment. or if they even knew where I went to grammar school or elementary school or high school. They didn’t have to know all that stuff. I wanted them to know me, but not necessarily every fact about my life. They could know all those facts and not really know me. In fact, God says this in Jeremiah, I think it’s chapter 9, verse 23 or something like that. I don’t want to get it wrong, but God says, Let not the wise man glory in his wisdom. Let not the mighty man glory in his might. Let not the rich man glory in his riches. But he that glories, let him glory in this, that he understands and knows me, that I am a God who loves loving kindness, justice, and righteousness, or something like that. In other words, that you know that God loves righteousness, that God loves justice. These are the things, if you want to know something, know that. He didn’t say, let him who glories, let him glory in this, that he knows me. that I am a trinity, that I am, you know, that I have always existed and I know all things. Now, what’s about those things? Those are important things, no doubt. I mean, if you want to know about God, those are good things to know about God. But if you’re going to know God, he wants you to know that he’s just, righteous, and so forth. I mean, I would like to think that people who know me, even if they don’t, you know, if you said to them, what’s Steve’s middle name? They might be able to say, I don’t know if I’ve ever heard of Steve’s middle name. I’m not sure I know his middle name. Well, what kind of person is he? Well, he’s a nice guy. He’s a good guy. I think he tells the truth, you know. I don’t think he’s an arrogant guy. I mean, those are the kinds of things that are my, that’s my character, not just the, you know, the factoids about my life. And, you know, knowing factoids about God is interesting sometimes. And insofar as we don’t neglect other things, I think it’s a fun thing to know as much about God in that respect as we can. But God’s looking for us to know him, for us to know that he’s a just God, that he’s a loving God, that he’s a merciful God. And these are not the factoids. This is his character. And that’s what God said we should know. And when Jesus said in John 17, 3, this is the eternal life, that they may know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you’ve sent. I think knowing God… is knowing God in the sense that Jeremiah was talking about, and other places in Scripture, too. Paul said that, you know, he said he gave up all the things he had before he was a Christian, that he might know him, that is, know God, know Christ, in the fellowship of his sufferings and in the power of his resurrection. He had it the other way around. I might know him in the power of his resurrection and the fellowship of his sufferings. But I want to fellowship with God. I want to know his power in my life. I want to share in his sufferings because you get more intimate with someone if you suffer with them in such circumstances than if they suffer and you only hear about it. In other words, Paul wanted to have an experiential knowledge like you have when you’re in a relationship. And that’s what I think Jesus is referring to. This is eternal life, to know God and to know Jesus like that. And theology, in my opinion, having good theology is… Much to be desired over having bad theology. And that’s why I’m very interested in theology. I really would like to have perfect theology. I don’t suppose I do, but if I could, I would. But I would never mistake that for knowing God. The Pharisees probably knew the Bible as well as anybody in Jesus’ day did, but they didn’t know God. They didn’t recognize Jesus when they met him. Didn’t know who he was. They knew the Bible real well, but there’s a big difference between knowing the Bible real well And knowing about God, knowing your theology well, on one hand, and really knowing God, having him as your personal confidant, someone that you walk with and live with and please and love and, you know, those kinds of things. So it’s a relationship that saves us. It’s not getting a good education particularly, though nothing is wrong with a good education. I’m all for it if you can fit that in your life, too. So is that covered?
SPEAKER 06 :
Yeah, that was nice. Thank you, Steve. I hope you have a good day, and God bless.
SPEAKER 01 :
Right, Josh. Good talking to you, man.
SPEAKER 06 :
Bye.
SPEAKER 01 :
Bye now. Okay, Garrett from Victoria, British Columbia. Welcome. Hi, Garrett.
SPEAKER 07 :
Hey, Steve. Nice to finally get on the call with you. A friend of mine named Junior, he introduced me to you about a Your podcast about a month or so ago, and it’s just been a binge, for instance. But we’ll keep it quick. I have a couple questions pertaining to Proverbs. I was equivalent to like a modern-day orphan, I guess you could say, and it often refers to father and mother. I kind of want to know what’s your outlook for someone in a situation like that.
SPEAKER 01 :
Yeah, really, when Solomon wrote Proverbs, he was writing to his son. So you’re right. Several times he mentions Proverbs. You know, a wise son is a delight to his father, you know, but he that brings shame is rottenness to his mother’s bones kind of stuff. And where he says, my son, heed the instruction of your father and the law that your mother taught you. I think those are the passages you’re thinking of, right? So, obviously, not all of us are in the same circumstance that Solomon’s son was in. In fact, none of us are. He was a prince, son of the most powerful and wealthy king. On the planet at the time, there were lots of differences between Solomon’s son and any of us. And some of us, like yourself, as you said, are quite different. Not only do you not have Solomon as your father, but you really haven’t had any father in your life, right? Or mother, if that’s what you mean when you say you’re an orphan. Yeah, yeah. So, in other words, you just have to realize, you have to make the adjustment. Realize that these Proverbs were written… to a certain person, and to the degree that you can appreciate the position they were in, realize that this person was taught, really, the ways of God and the laws of God by his parents. And so his dad says, hey, don’t forget the instructions we gave you. Now, the thing is, if you never had a father or a mother who taught you the ways of God, and most people in the world have not, and I would say probably even most Christians in the world were not instructed in the ways of Christ or God, by their parents, well, you can get that instruction yourself. I mean, it’s nice if you have the advantage of learning it young, but if you didn’t learn it young, it’s never too late to start. You know, you can just start reading the same things that Solomon did teach his son. And you can get it from… If you can get it from Solomon… As if you were his son, you know, because he’s teaching in that book the same thing he taught his son. Or I would say, more importantly, reading what Jesus said and learning it from there. But, yeah, it’s just that he mentions father and mother a number of times because he’s writing to somebody who has a father and a mother. In fact, he is the father of the son. But it’s like you’re reading somebody else’s mail. But the person who wrote it, the one who wrote it is writing generically true things. And so although I didn’t have the advantage of having Solomon as my father, Actually, I don’t know if that is an advantage. Solomon, you know, blew it a lot. He wasn’t perfect. But my own father was possibly as good to have as a father if it were Solomon. But if we didn’t have the advantage of having Solomon for our father, we at least have this advantage of the instructions that he gave his son. And as far as we know, that may be all that he left his son besides a fortune. We don’t inherit Solomon’s fortune, but we can inherit his wisdom from his Proverbs.
SPEAKER 07 :
Certainly. So if I have enough time to just ask one quick other question really quick. So the second one is in Proverbs it talks about, I mean, for lack of, I don’t know the scripture, but It talks about roasting, making fun of others, and stuff like that. I’m often a gentleman that really likes to engage in banter, roasting, pretty surface level. So I kind of want to get your input on that. I don’t necessarily dig at folks, but I don’t know. For example, if we’re playing basketball, I’d definitely make fun of you if you miss, stuff like that.
SPEAKER 01 :
That’s why I won’t play with you, because I always miss, and I don’t like getting made fun of.
SPEAKER 1 :
What?
SPEAKER 07 :
What’s your opinion about friendly banter?
SPEAKER 01 :
You know, friendly banter, I don’t think there’s anything wrong with it. It’s obvious that what Proverbs and the rest of the Bible teaches against is cruel talk toward people. I mean, if you’re insulting people and you’re. mocking them in a situation where, you know, you’re actually hoping to make them feel bad. I mean, let’s face it. There are times at least some people like to mock people who like to make them feel bad. That’s what it’s talking about. Now, if you’ve got a bunch of friends and you all banter that way back and forth and you all call each other losers and stuff like that, I mean, well, I don’t think that has the same spirit behind it. I mean, what the issue is here, you know, a person shouldn’t be cruel. And you can do as much cruelty to a person by speech as by many other ways. And you should avoid cruel speech. But it’s not actually cruel if you and the person you’re with knows you’re just kidding. You’re just joking around. I mean, you’re just you do it all the time. That’s how you relate. Now, I don’t personally prefer to be that way with my friends. Right. But on the other hand, if some friends do that, I take that back. There are some of my friends I talk that way with, a few. Though I don’t really prefer it. I don’t prefer that kind of friends. I’d rather talk about serious matters and the things of God. But I do have some friends who relate that way, and I kind of enter into that with them. But, you know, I don’t think it’s wrong in itself if it’s not meant unkindly. On the other hand, I will say this. Paul talked about foolish jesting and so forth in Acts. Ephesians chapter 5 in the opening verses there. And I think in the context, because of some of the other things he mentions, he may be talking about dirty jokes. I mean, like sexually lewd jokes and things like that when he talks about it. It’s not clear exactly what he means by foolish jesting, but he does mention sexual sins in the same context. But on the other hand, the more lighthearted we are, the less serious we are at that moment, you know? And, you know, Paul said in that same passage a little earlier in Ephesians 4, I think it’s verse 29, Paul said, let no corrupt communication proceed out of your mouth, but only that which is good for the use of edifying, that it might minister grace to the hearers. Now, that might seem like a really high standard, like, you know, everything you say, try to be edifying, try to minister grace to people. You know, the bar is high. And I’m not legalistic about this because I think that God doesn’t mind that we have some fun once in a while, too. But I think the idea is we should look at the way we talk to others and ask ourselves, generally speaking, after somebody has been in a conversation with me, do they feel edified or do they feel the opposite? I mean, it’s like I sometimes put it this way. If a bunch of Christians are standing around talking, cracking jokes, kind of insulting each other lightheartedly and so forth, And then a phone call comes in and says, quick, we need someone to pray for us. You know, there’s been a disaster. Someone’s in the hospital. They may die any minute. Please pray. It gets really awkward when you’ve just been bantering in a silly sort of way. Okay, let’s pray now. It’s like you almost feel kind of embarrassed because you simply have not been, you know, cultivating a spirit of prayer, which is possible to do at all times. It is possible. to watch your speech and to do, maybe not everything you say, but as much as possible, that you say the kinds of things that you think are helpful, a blessing, edifying to other people. And you might seem boring to people who like to joke around more, but I’d rather be boring and edifying than… entertaining, and a little unentifying. So, I mean, that’s kind of where I would stand on. I’m not going to judge people who joke around more than I do. Different people have different personalities, and some people are a lot funnier than I am. I actually laugh at people a lot. I’m not very funny. That is, I’m not very clever and witty to say funny things. I’m certainly not quick with a joke. But I have a sense of humor in the sense that I can sense and appreciate the humor in other people. Some people just always have me laughing because they’re really funny. I’m just not really that funny, but it’s just not what I want to be either. I’d rather be… you know, on the spot ready to pray, to cast out a demon or to counsel somebody who’s in grief or something like that on the spur of the moment, if possible. I’m not a perfect person by any means, but that’s my aim. That’s why I think Paul tells us to aim at that as much as we can. All right. I appreciate your call, brother. I need to try to get one more call. I’m not going to get it. I’m afraid. Not enough time. We’ve got some people waiting. I would have put one of you on, but I’m looking at the clock, and I just know – usually I say, well, we’ve got a couple minutes left, and we get started, and the person even hardly has their question out before the music’s played. So I’m not going to do that to you. If you want to – those of you who are waiting, if you want to call early tomorrow, I’d be glad to have you, you know, first in line at the – What’s this about? Okay, my wife handed me a note. I’m not sure what it’s about. There are some places. She wants me to just announce some of the places I’ll be speaking real soon. I’m going to be in Tennessee next week for about a whole week speaking several places. I’ll be speaking in Nashville. I’ll be speaking at the other end of the state, too, and places in between. If you’re in Tennessee, you can go to our website, thenarrowpath.com. and see my speaking schedule there under announcements. Later the same month, this month, I’m going to be in Arizona speaking in a number of places as well. You can find those also at the website. And while we’re at it, in April, early April, I’ll be in Northern California speaking in places like Santa Cruz, San Jose, Ukiah, of all places. And then later… Next month, I’ll be in Texas doing it right here. So I’m going to be traveling a lot. Check our website, thenarrowpath.com, under announcements for the specifics about those things. You’re listening to The Narrow Path. We’re done for the day. We are listener-supported. If you’d like to help us stay on the air, you can go to our website, take anything you want for free. Nothing is for sale. But you can also donate there, if you wish, at thenarrowpath.com. Thanks for joining us.
