Join us in this enlightening episode of The Narrow Path where Steve Gregg engages with callers on topics ranging from the interpretation of ‘the house of Jacob’ in the Bible to the dynamics of true Israel under the new covenant. Steve explores the inclusion of Gentiles and the role of true Israelites, bringing clarity to these often-confusing theological concepts. Dive into an insightful dialogue about God’s covenant, the remnant of Israel, and how it relates to believers today.
SPEAKER 1 :
Thank you.
SPEAKER 02 :
Good afternoon and welcome to the Narrow Path radio broadcast. My name is Steve Gregg and we’re live for an hour each weekday afternoon. We have phone lines open for you if you want to call in with questions about the Bible or about Christianity in general or more specifically something on your mind, something troubling you, maybe something you don’t agree with. Be glad to talk to you about those things. The number to call is 844-484-5737. That’s 844-484-5737. And I have one announcement to make about this week. That’s about tomorrow, Wednesday morning. being the first Wednesday of the month is the one day a month that we have our Zoom meeting in the evening. Tomorrow evening, 7 o’clock Pacific time. It’s just a Q&A time, but you’re welcome to join us. You can participate. You can log in and just watch it, or you can ask questions. And we do that one Wednesday night per month, and it’s the first Wednesday of the month, so that’s tomorrow. 7 o’clock Pacific time. If you’re interested in joining us, you can get the login information so you can be part of that Zoom call by going to thenarrowpath.com. and looking under Announcements and going down to tomorrow’s date, which is March 5th. And you’ll find all that you need to join us on that call if you’d like tomorrow night. All right, we’re going to talk to Cheryl in Lincoln, California. Hi, Cheryl. Good to hear from you.
SPEAKER 01 :
Hi, Steve. I really appreciate being able to talk to you. I have a question about Luke 1, 33. and he will reign over the house of Jacob forever, and his kingdom there will be no end. How, from a New Covenant perspective, are we to interpret the house of Jacob in that scripture?
SPEAKER 02 :
Well, the house of Jacob refers to, of course, Jacob and Israel are interchangeable terms. And the promises that are made to Israel or to Jacob, the terms are used interchangeably, the house of Israel or the house of Jacob, they are made to those that enter into the new covenant because Jeremiah 31 said that God will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and the house of Jacob. or Judah, I think he’s mentioned Judah there, and it’s going to be the new covenant. So Jesus came to bring that new covenant, and he did make that covenant with the remnant, the ones who would have him. We call them the disciples, but they were the remnant of Israel, the house of Jacob and so forth. All the promises of God that he made to Israel apply to the faithful in Israel. There’s no promises anywhere in the Bible made to people as unbelievers. And, of course, many Jewish people, just like many Gentile people, don’t believe in Christ, so they would not be included in the promise. And many places in the Old Testament specifically state that these promises of salvation of the Holy Spirit and so forth are being made to the remnant of Israel. In fact, in Isaiah chapter 10 and verse 22, it specifically says that no matter how many Israelites there are on the planet, Though they be like the sand of the seashore, he said, only the remnant will be saved. So when God speaks about Israel or Jacob and he makes promises to them, he’s made it very clear in many passages that, you know, if they’re not believers, this won’t apply to them. If they’re believers, then they are part of the true Israel. Remember when Jesus saw Nathanael coming to him in John chapter 1 at the end of the chapter there, Jesus said, behold, here comes an Israelite indeed. in whom there is no guile. He’s alluding to a passage in Zephaniah where it talks about the faithful remnant of Israel will have no guile in their mouths. And, of course, even Revelation talks about the 144,000 in their mouth. There’s no guile, it says in Revelation 14. And guile means dishonesty or hypocrisy. So Jesus said, here’s a true Israelite. And by saying an Israelite indeed… He’s obviously distinguishing Nathanael from many of the Israelites around him or people who regard themselves as such. But as far as Jesus is concerned, they’re not Israelites indeed. Similar to what he said in John chapter 8, 31, he said, Meaning there might be a lot of people who think they’re his disciples. But they’re not his disciples, in fact, indeed, unless they continue in his words. And that’s kind of what he means about Israel. There’s an Israelite indeed here, one of his disciples, as it turns out, later. But he’s saying a lot of the so-called Israelites, as far as I’m concerned, they’re not really the real deal. And by that he meant they’re not believers. They’re just like any pagans. Only they have adopted a Jewish religion, but God doesn’t save people for the religion. God saves people for their heart for him. And so those, the house of Jacob and the house of Israel that God makes these promises to are the ones that are the remnant. Now, The verse you quoted in Luke chapter 1, that’s kind of an allusion to Isaiah 9 verses 6 and 7. It’s a clear echo of those messianic verses where it says that unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given. And it goes on to say in chapter 7 that of the increase of his government there will be no end upon the throne of David. you know, from this time forever, you know, no end and things. Those are the phrases from that passage are being borrowed by the angel talking to Mary, saying your child will be, will have this destiny. So he’s basically saying, you know, he’s the fulfillment of the Old Testament prophecy about the Messiah. And that Messiah will rule over, he’ll rule over the true Israelites. Which he does, by the way, currently.
SPEAKER 01 :
Okay, so that’s the pivot point, I think, is the true Israelites. So like, What I understand you to be telling me is that this was the angel was confirming God’s fulfillment of his promise to the faithful remnant.
SPEAKER 10 :
Right.
SPEAKER 01 :
But I’m trying to understand how the believing Gentiles fit under that. And maybe they do, but maybe that wasn’t the intention of his announcement to her to explain that.
SPEAKER 02 :
Yeah, there’s no need to single out the Gentiles as a separate category. Because even in the Old Testament, Israel included Gentiles. To be part of Israel in the Old Testament, then you got circumcised and you kept the covenant that defined Israel. Israel was defined by the covenant that God made at Mount Sinai. Now, it specifically says in the law, Gentiles can do this too. If they want to keep the covenant, if they want to get circumcised, they can be, as the scripture says, like a native of the land, meaning just like any other Jew, even though they’re not Jewish by birth. They become part of Israel by being faithful to the covenant. Now, of course, Christ has come. He’s brought a new covenant. And being faithful to that covenant is what now defines them because he made the covenant with the house of Israel and the house of Judah. God has redefined his relationship with Israel by a new covenant that replaces the covenant that originally defined them. And it’s no different than the previous one in the sense that, you know, the faithful Jews are participants in it, and faithful Gentiles, too, if they want to come on the terms of the covenant. That was true of Israel in the Old Testament. And there were lots of Gentile-born people who were what they called proselytes. They were Israel. They were part of Israel. Right. And it’s true now under the new covenant because Israel is still the same entity. Israel is made up of the people faithful to God’s covenant. And that means Jewish people who are faithful to it and Gentile people who are faithful to it. The only thing that’s changed is which covenant you have to be faithful to. Now there’s a new covenant. It says in Hebrews chapter 8 and verse 13 that where there’s a new covenant, the old one’s obsolete. So Israel can’t be defined by the old covenant as far as God’s concerned. That’s obsolete. But they can be defined by the new covenant that is made with them. Just like the old covenant, most Jews were not faithful to it, and most are not faithful to the new covenant. And most Gentiles are not, too. But the ones who are, are the ones that are referred to as the true Israel, the house of Jacob. So, you know, those who embrace Christ as their Messiah, and the word Messiah means king, anointed king. Those are the people that we call Christians. Unfortunately, we call some people Christians who probably haven’t made that commitment, and they’re not real Christians either because, like Jesus said, only if you continue in my words are you my disciples indeed. So, I mean, there are people who call themselves Christians, which, by the way, in the Bible is synonymous with the word disciple. The Bible says the disciples were first called Christians in Antioch. So the two words are interchangeable for the same group. But many people called themselves disciples, but they didn’t continue his words, so they weren’t his disciples indeed. You could simply substitute the word Christian. People say they’re Christians, but if they don’t follow Christ, they’re not Christians indeed. But people who are Christians are the ones who embrace the Jewish Messiah, Christ, and have come to God faithfully on terms of the New Covenant. But the only Jews that are part of God’s people are the ones who have also embraced the New Covenant. So the New Covenant and the Old both encompass Jewish believers and Gentile believers. And the only difference between the Old and the New Covenant is the covenant. The Old Testament or the Old Covenant has been replaced by a New Covenant, a New Testament. So and Christ reigns over us. Christ is at the right hand of God. When he rose from the dead, it says Jesus said that God gave him all authority in heaven and earth. And we know that the scripture says he’s seated at the right hand of God and he’ll reign there until he’s put all his enemies under his feet. So Mary’s son did, in fact, become king. He is on David’s throne. He has been there for 2000 years. They’ll be there as long as he needs to be there. while he’s reigning from heaven over those who are subject to him. And some people say, well, Jesus can’t be reigning right now because look how many people are following the devil. Well, the Bible doesn’t say that people won’t follow the devil while he’s reigning. He reigns over those who are the faithful. If you’re a Christian, he’s reigning over you. If you’re a real Christian, you’re dictating your life by what he commands. You’re living your life to please him and be loyal to him. That’s what a Christian is. And so he does reign over his people, over his kingdom. And he’ll do that forever. Because even though Jesus will come back someday, he’s not going to forfeit that. his kingdom, something will change. Paul says he’s going to turn it over to his father, but Christ will certainly reign with his father because the Bible makes it very clear in the passage you quoted, as well as several in the Old Testament, that Christ’s kingdom is eternal and has no end. So, you know, it shouldn’t be thought so complicated. Once we stop thinking in racial terms, And by the way, God never really did think in racial terms. Before Abraham’s time, his people were his people. You know, Enoch and Noah and those people, they were before Abraham. They were God’s people, no less than Abraham himself and his descendants are. And even after Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob came, Gentiles were part of that too. Every one of Jacob’s 12 sons married Gentile women because there were no Jews. The Jewish nation didn’t exist yet. So every Israelite, no matter what tribe they came from, came from a Gentile mother. But those Gentile mothers, you know, were included in the covenant, too, because they became covenanted with the faithful Jews. So, you know, it’s always been the same. People faithful to God are his Israel. People who are not, are not. Race has never had anything to do with it. It’s true that God did make promises to Abraham’s seed, but the Bible makes it very clear that there’s a lot of people who were Abraham’s seed, including Ishmael, Midian, The Shulites and many other Gentile groups, they had Abraham for their father, too. And, you know, John the Baptist said, don’t think to say within yourselves we have Abraham for our father. God can, from these stones, raise up children for Abraham. So it’s very clear that it doesn’t matter who your parents are, who your ancestors are, what race you are. If you are faithful to Christ, you are a child of Abraham. And that’s what it says in Galatians 3. It says, therefore, those who have the faith of Abraham are the children of Abraham. So being Abram’s seed, being Israel, it’s simply being faithful to God. And in this era, that means faithful to God by being faithful to Christ.
SPEAKER 01 :
Okay.
SPEAKER 02 :
Thank you very much. Thank you very much. Joshua from Phoenix, Arizona. Hearing a lot from you lately. Now, Joshua, you’re a Roman Catholic. Is that correct?
SPEAKER 05 :
Yeah.
SPEAKER 02 :
All right. I always appreciate your calls. Go ahead.
SPEAKER 05 :
Yeah, yeah. I appreciate talking to you, too. Even though we have, you know… we’re not in full communion, it is nice that we can talk and discuss this. So, you know, I’ve been reading a lot into this, the idea of like church history, like heresies and all this stuff. And I’ve been thinking, there’s this, I’m not sure if you’re familiar with this, but the Lutherans, the Calvins, even going even before that, the Donatists believed that the Catholic Church preserved the true faith up until a certain point. And then they said up until the third, fourth, fifth century, they were corrupted and they fell away. And that’s like the idea of why the Reformation ended up happening. The Catholic Church ended up taking up creating these falsehoods. But what I’m concerned about, I guess, is that it seems to be the case not just with the Reformers, But it’s also even in, I believe the Islamic religion has the same idea. This idea of corruption.
SPEAKER 02 :
So there’s this idea that… The Muslims believe that the Bible, the New Testament itself was corrupted by the church. Yeah.
SPEAKER 05 :
So there’s this, I guess there’s this idea going around. But I guess my question to you is are you kind of in that same position? Do you think that there was a Catholic Church in the beginning that had the truth, or do you think it was just, it wasn’t the Catholic Church? Where’s your position on that?
SPEAKER 02 :
Yeah, well, the word Catholic is a generic word for universal. And yeah, there was one universal church, one Catholic Church from the time of the apostles onward. But the Catholic Church just means the universal body of Christ. Now, the body of Christ is comprised of those who have been converted to become followers of Christ. He is their head. They are members of his body, and they follow the head. So these are people who take the lordship of Christ seriously and follow him. They are people who have the spirit of Christ, just like all the members of your physical body have the same spirit, your spirit. The human spirit is the same for every member of the body, including the head. So if somebody has the spirit of the head, shares the same spirit with all the rest of the body parts, and is following Christ, that’s pretty much all it takes to be part of the body of Christ. Now, you’re thinking of the Catholic Church in terms of an organization which has a certain structure, maybe like a corporation. It’s got a top-down flow chart from Peter’s successor to maybe the successors of the other apostles or whatever. and then down through. Jesus never said he’s going to set up an organization like that. He has a body. The church is an organism. It’s the physical embodiment of Christ, and it’s made up of everybody who’s a true follower of Christ. Now, many of these followers are in Christian organizations, including the Catholic Church and including the Eastern Orthodox Church and the Coptic Church and the Protestant churches of various types. There are Christians who really are followers of Christ and have his spirit in all of these organizations. But you’ll also find in all of these organizations, there are people who don’t know Jesus from a hole in the wall. They don’t know him at all. They’re not following him. They’re maybe cradle Catholics. Some cradle Catholics do meet Christ and follow him. Others just remain identified. with the Catholic organization, but never have any contact really with Christ himself and are not Christians. So the church is made up of the total number of Christians in the world. You don’t find it meeting in one building somewhere in town. It’s a spiritual fellowship. It’s defined by spiritual characteristics. But any time you meet somebody who is following Jesus faithfully, You’ve met someone who’s part of the church and part of the Catholic Church. That is the universal worldwide church worldwide. There’s this this fellowship of people. They don’t they don’t all know each other, of course, or meet each other. They don’t even have all the same beliefs about everything and the same practice of everything. But if they’re following Jesus. There’s no way to not be part of the body of Christ if Christ is your head. And so that’s what I see. So was there a Catholic Church? Of course. There’s always been a Catholic Church. But what you’re talking about is the Roman Catholic Church. Now, the Roman Catholic Church is defined by those, you know, the universal churches that follow the Roman pontiff, the Bishop of Rome. Now, the Eastern Church doesn’t follow the Bishop of Rome. But they’re still Christians if they know Jesus. Protestants don’t follow the Bishop of Rome, but they still know Jesus if they follow him. Catholics can know Jesus. And whether they follow the Pope or not, they’re not being saved by following the Pope. They’re saved by following Christ. So, I mean, you might be a Christian as far as I know. But if you are, it’s not because you’re in the Catholic Church or the Roman Catholic Church. If you’re a Christian, it’s because you’re a follower of Jesus. Because that’s what a Christian always has meant in the Bible. So that’s my understanding of it.
SPEAKER 05 :
Okay. Yeah. I mean, because the idea that I was trying to get at was that, you know, you have heresies springing forth. So I would think that there are some teachings. You know, Scripture comes a little later on, but I would think that there’s some moral teachings. There’s some understanding, basic understanding of Christianity in the early centuries. And then you have people teaching something different. So, to me, I was just kind of looking at that.
SPEAKER 02 :
And then also, I was reading… Well, let me comment on that, if I could. Because you mentioned Scripture came a little later on. No, the canon of Scripture was formalized later on. But every book that’s in that canon of Scripture was in the hands of the church from the days of the apostles. Because these books were written by apostles. The original apostles. So, in other words, while not all churches… had all of the books in their hands because they didn’t have printing presses. They couldn’t mass produce them quite like we can now. But every one of the Gospels, the Book of Acts, all the epistles, they were in the church. They were recognized. I mean, a few of the epistles, there were some questions about them, but all the major books of the New Testament pretty much were recognized by the church throughout the world from the first century. Now, you know, when it came to saying, well, let’s nail down an exact list of which books belong and which ones don’t, that wasn’t done until almost 400 A.D. But the early church had the apostolic writings from day one. And more than that, from day one, they had the apostles themselves preaching in the churches. So once the apostles died… Fortunately, they had left their writings, so we know what they’ve taught. And so the later generations of Christians could follow the apostolic teaching because they had their writings. It was later that the church formed into sort of like a corporation, a corporate organization with like a CEO at the top and a board of directors kind of thing. And almost all churches today operate with some measure of that kind of organization. But that’s not what Jesus did. He didn’t set it up like that. The people who followed Christ and followed the apostles had access to all the scriptures, and maybe with the exception of two or three books that they weren’t sure about, but not the most important books in the New Testament, like I’m going to talk about Jude and 2 Peter and a few things like that. But you don’t need those books to live as a Christian. So the scriptures didn’t come later. It’s just the formalized canonization of the scriptures came later. Some people say, well, the Catholic Church gave us the New Testament canon. Well… Okay, first of all, the New Testament canon was well-determined before there was a Roman Catholic Church, because in the days of the councils where the Catholic Church did make some decisions about what belongs and doesn’t belong in the Scriptures… they were not yet submitted to the Pope of Rome. That came at least a century later. So it wasn’t Roman Catholic, it was just the church, just bishops of the churches throughout the world. They weren’t under the Pope of Rome yet. And they did, of course, make decisions about what books belonged, but the books they chose were the ones that the church had never lacked. So, in other words, you’re right, there are heresies, and heresies, I think, can be identified by their disagreement with what’s written in those books. You know, if people do not follow the apostolic teaching, whatever it is they’re teaching that’s contrary to it is heretical. Now, you might feel, because Catholics sometimes do, that if you hold a view that’s technically heretical, you can’t be saved. And that’s a Catholic attitude. You know, if you don’t hold the views we hold on everything, if you hold some views that we think are heretical… even though the apostles didn’t say they’re heretical, and Jesus didn’t say they’re heretical, but our group says that. We had a council in the 6th century, and they said that’s heretical. So now you can’t be a Christian if you don’t agree with what this council said. Jesus never set up those kinds of councils. He never did say… doctrines beyond those which he and the apostles taught are going to become mandatory for people to believe. That’s an organizational thing that developed. I don’t go along with that. So I agree with you, there’s a lot of heresies. Heresy meaning a false teaching. Some heresies are damnable heresies, the Bible says. For example, if somebody says, okay, I just got a revelation from God that it’s okay for us to sleep with each other’s partners, each other’s spouses. Well, that’s a damnable heresy because adulterers will not inherit the kingdom of God. So, you know, there are doctrines that will kill you spiritually. There’s others that there’s no reason to believe they’ll kill people.
SPEAKER 05 :
Yeah, I guess I’ll just leave it with this quote. As a Catholic, I feel this quote hits a lot of Catholics, and I’m sure a lot of Catholics listen to you. So this quote is by Fulton J. Sheen. He was a bishop in the 19th to 20th century. I remember. He said, there are not a hundred people in America who hate the Catholic Church. There are millions of people who hate what they wrongly believe to be the Catholic Church, which, of course, is a different thing. Go ahead.
SPEAKER 02 :
I was just going to say, I doubt that anyone who regularly listens to this program hates the Catholic Church. I mean, I should say, no one I know, no Christian I know hates Catholics. Now, some people might hate the organization, which is different than the people. I mean, there’s lots of churches, organizations. I think the way they’ve organized is abominable, but the people in them, I don’t have any animosity toward. I think that Some people don’t recognize that you can love Catholics and not really love the institutional church because you’ve seen damage the institution has done to people.
SPEAKER 05 :
Yeah, that’s what he’s getting at, the idea. It’s not so much the people, but it’s just the teachings and what they stand for. And I think that’s something I look forward to talking to you in the future with, Steve.
SPEAKER 02 :
You’re always welcome.
SPEAKER 05 :
All right. God bless you.
SPEAKER 02 :
Always welcome. Okay. God bless you. Thanks for calling. Okay. We’re going to take a break here, and then we have some more calls to take in the next half hour. And you’ll have opportunity to call during the next half hour. And if we can, we’ll try to get you all into the half hour. We may not be able to get to everybody. That’s usually the case. I want to just say that I’m going to be in Tennessee all next week. I’m speaking in places like Pelham, a little tiny place conservatively maybe an hour or less south of Nashville. I’m going to be in Englewood, which is closer to Chattanooga. I’m going to be in Churchill. which is closer to Knoxville, I think, and also Talbot near Knoxville. Those are the places I’m speaking. If you want to see those places, you can go to our website, thenarrowpath.com, and look under announcements. And those are all coming up next week. You’re listening to The Narrow Path. We are listener-supported. If you go to our website, you can see how you can support us if you want to or not. Just take our resources. We’ve got them there. They’re free. Our website is thenarrowpath.com. I’ll be back in 30 seconds, so don’t go away.
SPEAKER 03 :
We highly recommend that you listen to Steve Gregg’s 14 lecture series entitled, When Shall These Things Be? This series addresses topics like the Great Tribulation, Armageddon, the rise of the Antichrist, and the 70th week of Daniel. When Shall These Things Be? can be downloaded in MP3 format without charge from our website, thenarrowpath.com.
SPEAKER 02 :
Welcome back to the Narrow Path Radio Broadcast. My name is Steve Gregg, and we’re live for another half hour taking your calls. Our lines are full at the moment, but if you want to try a little later to get on, the number is 844- And I just want to mention, among the places that I’m speaking in Tennessee, one of the places I’m speaking is a little tiny town in an out-of-the-way place. Last time I was there, we got a big crowd there. Obviously, they weren’t all locals. Some of them drove some distance to be there. At this point, our hostess tells us they haven’t gotten many RSVPs for this time, so they don’t know how many to expect. But if you’re thinking about it, coming to the Church Hill, Tennessee meeting, which I think is going to be like a week from now, Thursday, if I’m not mistaken, you’ll need to call to get the address and stuff, and the hosts are eager to hear from you so they know how many people to expect. Again, you go to my website, thenarrowpath.com, look under announcements, and all the contact information you need will be there. All right, we’re going to go back to the phones now because we’ve got our lines full and talk to Zen from Beaverton, Oregon. Hi, Zen. Hello. Hey, turn your radio down, please. We’re going to go back to the phones now because we’ve got our lines full. Yeah, when you call, you’re supposed to be on the phone. Okay, I’m going to have to hang up on that. Okay, just let me say call back if you want. I’ll be glad to take your call if we can get to it. But when you’re waiting to be put on the air, don’t leave your phone. on the idea that I’ll listen on my app or on the radio, and when Steve calls my name, I’ll run back to the phone. Well, by the time you hear me call your name on the radio, I’ve been waiting for you for 20 minutes or 20 seconds or so, and that’s why just now anyone listening heard the last 20 seconds of the radio show that they’d already heard. because there’s a delay. So you have to stay on the phone. If you’re not there, I can’t wait for you. Time is short and expensive, and we have a lot of people waiting. So if you want to call back, feel free to do that. The number is 844-484-5737. If you get online and you’re on hold, stay at your phone, please, or else we may have to not get your call, even after you’ve waited a long time. Samantha from Saco, Maine, or Saco, Maine. Hi, Samantha. Yes. Hello. Hi.
SPEAKER 1 :
Hi.
SPEAKER 04 :
So I have a question about divorce, and I know, obviously, there’s many cultural differences about divorce between now and when the Bible was written.
SPEAKER 02 :
Well, I have to say, we got a real bad connection. It’s making a lot of noise, but… Go ahead and just give me your question because we may not be able to listen to the noise on the line for long. I’ll still answer. Go ahead.
SPEAKER 04 :
My question for you is about divorce. Yes. And what is your question? It doesn’t want to reconcile if you’re separated and they’re not filing a divorce because they don’t want to reconcile. I guess what is your view on filing for divorce yourself?
SPEAKER 02 :
Well, I’m not saying it can’t be done. If there’s grounds for divorce, you can file for divorce, and you’re not sinning. I never, or almost never, I don’t know if I’ve ever encouraged anyone to file for divorce. It may be that if your spouse is essentially divorced, they’re living with someone else, and they’ve just never formalized it, then I think filing for divorce makes sense, just because by filing, you’re not getting a divorce. Your spouse is already divorced. Divorced you just doesn’t want to go through them, you know Paperwork, whatever. I don’t think there’s anything wrong With going through the paperwork to formalize a divorce that already exists now So if that’s your case or whatever then I’d say yeah, I it depends. I I don’t know why Every person is separated from some other person. Everyone’s got different reasons and The truth is there’s not many valid reasons for a husband or wife to separate and divorce. There may be more reasons to separate than there are to divorce because sometimes situations in the home are fairly intolerable, possibly even dangerous. And it may be necessary for the safety of one party, one of the spouses and maybe the children. to separate just for physical protection, live in a safe place until things can get better. I don’t think that everyone who probably should temporarily separate, I don’t think they all have grounds for divorce. Grounds for divorce in the Bible are if your spouse has been sleeping with somebody else and broke the covenant that way. You know, they maybe have left, remarried, shacked up, or just had some affairs. If they’re still married to you, they’ve broken the covenant. I’d say that you have grounds for divorce in a case like that. The other case I know about from the Bible is in 1 Corinthians 7, and that’s if your partner is not a Christian and you are. Then it’s possible if they want to leave you to let them go. And basically, if they end the marriage, if that’s their intention, you don’t have to keep the marriage going. That’s what Paul said. If they are not willing to dwell with you. let him go, Paul said. That’s in 1 Corinthians 7, verses 12-15. So, let’s just say, I mean, you didn’t give me much detail, I don’t want much detail at this moment, but if it’s your husband you’re talking about, if he’s left the home, if he doesn’t want to be in the marriage anymore, then I have to assume he’s not a Christian, because Christians don’t want to break their vows, and anyone who leaves their spouse without good reason has broken their vows. And basically, I don’t believe that a person can leave their marriage vows wrongfully without at the same time, in the same action, leaving Christ. Why? Because I don’t think, some people may think otherwise, but I understand people, Christians are people who follow Christ. And as soon as you say, well, I don’t care what Jesus said. I know he said I can’t divorce. I know he said I have to be faithful until death. I know he said I have to love my wife as Christ loves the church, and I have to submit to my husband as the church to Christ. I know that he said that, but I don’t care. I don’t care what he said. I don’t want to do what I want to do. That person is saying, I’m not a follower of Christ anymore. Don’t call me a Christian. Now, they might still call themselves Christians for whatever self-serving reasons, but they’re not. They’re not what the Bible calls a Christian. You cannot violate your marriage vows. unrepentantly, and be a follower of Christ. It’s like riding two different trains going different directions. You can’t do it. So, you know, if your husband has left you, so I don’t want to be a Christian, I don’t want to be your husband, and it becomes especially clear if he’s, you know, shacked up with someone else or doing something like that, then you definitely have grounds for divorce. And that’s the kind of thing that Paul said. If the unbeliever departs, let him go. Now, I don’t know because your phone was too noisy for me to ask a lot of questions and wait for your answers, but maybe your husband claims to be a Christian, and I don’t know why he left. Maybe he thought he had grounds. I don’t know. But I will say that if a person divorces or abandons their marriage vows, without grounds, and has no intention of coming back and fulfilling them, that person is not a Christian no matter what they call themselves. Because they don’t care what Jesus said. And nobody who doesn’t care what Jesus said is a Christian. You’re a Christian if you say, Jesus is King, Jesus is Lord, it’s no longer I, but Christ, His will, not mine. I bear my cross, I follow Jesus, that’s what a Christian is. I deny myself. Now, people who leave their spouses when there’s no grounds for it, They’re abandoning that commitment. They’re not following Jesus. And unless they come back, or at least wish they could, try to, they’re just not what the Bible calls a Christian. I realize that some people say, oh, that’s a little harsh. Yeah, sometimes what Jesus said sounded a little harsh to people. Sometimes people said, whoa, these are hard words. Who can hear it? But that didn’t prevent him from saying them. And, you know, when Jesus says words that are hard to take, it’s not because he wants to make enemies. It’s because somebody has to say it because it’s true. And if it makes him unpopular, if they crucify him for it, well, that’s the cost of telling the truth to people. People need the truth. And many churches won’t tell the truth. Many churches don’t want to lose somebody who puts something in the bag every week or something. They don’t want to hold to the standards of Christ because, frankly, it’s extremely unpopular to do so. But, honestly, followers of Christ want to follow Christ. They find it difficult sometimes, but they want to do it. And if your husband left, doesn’t want to do that, then he’s not a Christian, no matter what he calls himself. But I don’t know your husband. I can’t say that man definitely is not a Christian because I don’t know what he would tell me about his commitment to Christ or why he’s not in the marriage at the moment or whether he’d come back. But your answer, your question seems to be if he doesn’t want to come back, if it’s essentially been determined the marriage is over and he made that decision, he’s not open to it, Is it wrong for you to file for divorce? If he’s made the choice and if he’s divorced you in his heart and in his actions and in his commitment, I don’t think that formalizing it with a piece of paper makes much difference because that is – I don’t think it’s necessarily wrong to get a decree of divorce in a case like that. It’s just decreeing to be so what is obviously so. That’s my opinion. Not everyone has the same ideas about those, as you said, but that’s how I would see it. Now, if you’re interested in a more full teach about divorce and remarriage, I have a – lengthy and detailed article examining all the relevant scriptures. At our website, you can just read it from there, download it if you want. If you go to thenarrowpath.com, there’s a tab there that says Topical Articles. These are articles that were published in magazines previously. that I wrote. And so under topical articles, there’s one on divorce or marriage, which I think you’ll find very comprehensive, more than I can be here. All right, we’re going to take a call next from Tom, and also in Maine. Two calls from Maine in a row. Hi, Tom.
SPEAKER 09 :
Hi, Steve. As they say in Texas, I appreciate you.
SPEAKER 02 :
Thank you. I hear that they do have some clear phone lines in Maine. That’s good to know. You’re very sharp.
SPEAKER 09 :
Yeah, yeah. Thank you. So going back to Roman Catholicism, I’m sure you heard this last fall the Pope said when he was in Indonesia that he compared all the different religions to languages and that basically, you know, they all lead to the same God. My question is, is that, I mean, does somebody need to preach the gospel to the Pope or will that actually send him to hell?
SPEAKER 02 :
Well, I don’t know this pope personally. Everything I’ve heard about him makes me have doubts that he knows the Lord. And, you know, some people say, well, wouldn’t Catholics be offended by you saying that? Well, they might, but most Catholics agree that there have been popes who didn’t know the Lord. there’s been a long string of popes, and some of them were fornicators and adulterers and liars and so forth. And the Catholic Church, its official position is that some of their popes have not been spiritual people. Didn’t know the Lord. They believe the institution is God-ordained, so that sometimes in that institution there’s some unworthy people, but the institution is still valid. But I think many Catholics have questions about this present Pope. The more conservative Catholics tend not to like him much. And much of what I’ve heard him say I didn’t like either. So I think he’s just a liberal. I think he’s just a liberal theologian. His health is pretty bad. I don’t think it will be bad for the church for him to pass on to his reward, whatever that may be. I’m not going to say he’s going to hell because I don’t know. I’m not the one who makes those decisions.
SPEAKER 09 :
I wouldn’t wish that on anyone.
SPEAKER 02 :
No, nor would I. I have no animosity toward the Pope, but it does concern me that someone who is supposedly the spiritual head of so many millions, billions of people is so careless.
SPEAKER 07 :
Isn’t he supposed to be purple, though?
SPEAKER 02 :
No, the infallibility of the Pope doctrine, many Protestants have misunderstood that. The Church does not teach that the Pope in his private life is infallible. It doesn’t mean that, you know, talking to him over dinner, he could never say something that’s untrue. They believe that whatever is decided ex cathedra, ex cathedra literally means from the throne, but from the seat. There are times when councils… bishops get together and so forth, they hammer out some theological point, and if it’s confirmed by the Pope and so forth, it is considered that his official declaration about such a thing is infallible. He can’t go wrong on it. They believe that as an individual he may go wrong. In fact, that’s what Catholics have often said to me when I’ve said, you know, what do you think about all these popes in history that were just monsters of iniquity? And they don’t deny it. They just say, well, thankfully God… providentially made sure they didn’t make any decisions ex cathedra during their time as popes because they weren’t worthy of it so I mean they would say the popes are fallible men but when they’re acting in an official capacity decreeing doctrine that God preserves them from making any mistakes of course I don’t agree with them at all on that I’ve never seen a pope yet that didn’t make any mistakes
SPEAKER 09 :
I know, but I’m – are you there?
SPEAKER 02 :
Yeah.
SPEAKER 09 :
I’m just saying, man, when he goes on live video all over the world and says that what Jesus said was a lie, that’s just incredible to me.
SPEAKER 02 :
Yeah, I don’t defend him. I’ve got no defense to offer for him.
SPEAKER 09 :
Yeah.
SPEAKER 02 :
All right.
SPEAKER 09 :
I have friends that are Catholics, and I don’t know how to talk to them about that.
SPEAKER 02 :
Well, you can just tell him he’s mistaken. Just read the Bible. You know, the Pope is mistaken. And by the way, I think many Catholics would say they don’t agree with that particular statement because he didn’t make it ex cathedra. The Pope often says, expresses certain opinions in speeches he gives and in just different offhand remarks in interviews or whatever. And it is not considered by Catholics that everything he says is correct. They don’t believe that he’s infallible when he does that. Again, it has to be much more of a formal declaration that the bishops have kind of deliberated on and so forth. So when he says something like that, he’s just showing he’s not that, he’s a heretic. Thanks, Steve. Thank you. Okay, our next caller is Renee from Victoria, British Columbia. Hi, Renee. Welcome.
SPEAKER 06 :
Hello there.
SPEAKER 02 :
Hey.
SPEAKER 06 :
Hey, God bless you.
SPEAKER 02 :
Can you hear me? Yes, thank you.
SPEAKER 06 :
What is your question? Greetings from Canada. I’m a 67-year-old man this week and I have been I have been paralyzed since birth. That’s 67 years. I have a wonderful life. I’ve had the best life a human being can have. This is not as much of a theological question as it is a question from the heart. I’ve loved my Heavenly Father since I was 17 years old. That’s 50 years of a wonderful life. And I just want to know how you understand… Healing. I want to know how you understand, like, if God is light and in him is no darkness, neither shadow of turning, then I believe it’s the adversary that, and of course, circumstances that cause these things in people’s lives. I mean, who sinned, me or my parents, right? Right.
SPEAKER 02 :
Well, let me answer that because we have very many minutes left. My understanding of healing is that God can heal any disease and sometimes does. He’s healed lepers. He’s raised the dead. He’s given sight to the blind. He’s opened the ears of the deaf. He’s made people who are paralytics, you know, jump and leap and so forth, but not many of them. We don’t read in the Bible of very many cases like that. We know that when Jesus came, he did more in an intensive period of time than probably has been done in any other intensive period of time. But God has times when he heals and he has times when he doesn’t. But you say, well, God is light. I think you’re implying, why would he allow sickness? Why wouldn’t he heal all the time? Well, God always will do the thing that he sees as truly the best thing, both for his children and for his kingdom generally. Now, fortunately, people who are his children, they care more about his kingdom than they care about their own circumstances anyway, because that’s what being a Christian is. You’re not about yourself anymore. You deny yourself and take up your cross and follow Jesus. I’m just saying that’s a generic way that we have to understand what a Christian is. You know, a Christian has to recognize that whatever God’s doing is going to be ultimately best for me, and it’s also going to be best for his kingdom. And if what’s best for his kingdom is very inconvenient or disappointing or painful for me, well, I’m in. I’m all for the will of God. Not my will, but yours be done. And that’s what Paul said. You know, he had some tormenting thing he called the thorn in his flesh. He said it tormented him. And he three times asked Jesus to take it away from him, to heal him. He said, the Lord said, my grace is sufficient for you. My strength is made perfect in your weakness. And Paul says, oh, okay, now that I know it that way, I’ll rejoice in this. I’ll rejoice in my infirmity, because when I’m weak, I’m strong. In other words, Paul definitely wanted to be healed, and it was tormenting to be ill, but As soon as he knew, oh, this is what God wants, this is what God says is best, I’m in. I’m in. And that’s the Christianity toward all things. But it also illustrates that God doesn’t always heal and doesn’t always intend to heal. He always heals when he intends to, I think, if people have enough faith. I don’t know. I don’t think that God’s will is always to heal. even though his will is always the best for us. I mean, there’s more ways to suffer besides being sick. That’s one very significant way to be suffering. Many people who are never very sick have other forms of sickness, like horrendous marriages to endure. or the loss of their children, you know, or horrible things like that. I mean, people can suffer horrendous things without ever having a sick day in their life. And so life is full of suffering. Job experienced all these ways. Job had painful sickness. He lost all his finances in a single day. His children seemed to have been killed, ten of them in one day. You know, the man had just about every way a man can suffer. It hit him in a couple of days total. And He didn’t like it. He didn’t like it at all. But he said, well, the Lord gives and the Lord takes away. Blessed be the name of the Lord. And he said to his wife, should we receive only the good things from the Lord, not the bad things also? And this is an attitude of a man who never even owned a Bible. None of it was written in his day. He was not even a Jew. But he was smart enough to know that God is kind of in charge of these things. And God is good. So even if what God does is painful for me, God would not do it unless he thought some good would come from it to me. And Job even understood that. Job said, when he has tried me, I shall come forth as gold. You know, this is going to be good for me. It doesn’t feel like it now. I can’t even see how it will be, but it’s going to be. I know I’ve been through some trials. Nothing quite on the level of being paralyzed from birth. That’s a horrible thing to have to endure. Although, of course, since it’s been from birth, I know you clearly are used to it. But it doesn’t make it any less desirable to feel like I wish I could do everything physically others could do. I know that. But what the Bible teaches is this life is not the period of time that things are supposed to always go our way. Some people are in prison and tortured in third world prisons for 30 years. That’s not the way they want their life to go. You know, some people, again, they have, let’s just say they have handicapped children to take care of all their lives. That wasn’t what they planned on. But anyone who’s a Christian can say, well, this is not what I planned on. But apparently it’s what God planned on. And, you know, God’s ideas of what’s good for me, I’m going to trust those more than I trust my ideas of what’s good for me. There’s a great poem that was put to music by Phil Kege called Disappointment, His Appointment. It’s a great song and poem. A lady wrote it, and I think Phil Kege was at a Christian camp, and he saw it scrawled on the bathroom wall by somebody, but It’s called Disappointment, His Appointment. You can find it online. But it goes like disappointment, his appointment, change one letter. Then I see that the thwarting of my purpose is God’s better choice for me. It says his appointment must be blessing, though it may come in disguise for the end from the beginning, open to his wisdom lies. And there’s more verses like that, but it’s a powerful song. It’s all biblically, theologically true. But the idea is everything’s a disappointment to me. I can accept it as God’s appointment. If it’s God’s will, you know, I’ll suffer. The Bible indicates we’re supposed to be suffering in this life. Our light afflictions, which are but for a moment, work for us an eternal weight of glory. You know, let me just say, I could talk for the rest of my life about this subject because it’s such a big one in Scripture. But I’d suggest to you a lecture series on our website you can listen to called Making Sense Out of Suffering. And I really think that people who are going through handicaps and suffering and so forth could benefit a great deal from understanding the scriptural truths that are in there. It’s called Making Sense Out of Suffering. If you go to thenarrowpath.com, you’ll find it there under Topical Lectures. It’s four lectures, but I think you’d find it worth listening to. And your call was worth us hearing, too. I appreciate the fact that you exhibit the grace of God and you’re rejoicing in tribulation, rejoicing in your disability. That glorifies God. And sometimes, I don’t know about your situation, but sometimes that’s what God has it for, that people who are suffering, that they trust him. They’re a tremendous encouragement. And maybe even a shame, bring shame to people who complain over lesser things, you know. God uses you. And I hope he may heal you if it’s his will. But if he doesn’t heal you, then it’s because he’s going to use you in this situation for the time being. But it’s not eternal. We’re all going to be shedding these bodies before very much longer, and then we’ll have bodies that don’t have these problems. God bless you, brother. It’s good to talk to you. Have a good afternoon. Let’s talk to Lorenzo from Huntington Beach, California. Hi, Lorenzo. Welcome.
SPEAKER 08 :
Well, Steve, I always learn something when I listen to you. I didn’t know Joe wasn’t a Jew.
SPEAKER 02 :
No, he was before Abraham’s time. Well, not before Abraham’s time. No, he was before Moses’ time. He wasn’t descended from Abraham. Probably Edomite. But go ahead. We only have a couple minutes.
SPEAKER 07 :
You were talking yesterday about God, and I thought you said repent, but you probably said relent. Do you remember that conversation yesterday? Yes.
SPEAKER 02 :
I said repent.
SPEAKER 07 :
Did God repent about his decision?
SPEAKER 02 :
Yeah, I said repent because that’s what the King James Version says. The New King James says relent. Yeah, it says, you know, God, when Nineveh repented, God repented of the evil he said he would do. And in Jeremiah 18, God said, if I say I’m going to destroy people, if they turn from their evil ways, I will repent. The word, the idea of God repenting is kind of shocking to people, so the New King James and most modern translations change it to relent. But it is indeed the same word that is translated repent elsewhere in the Old Testament. So it does say God repents, but the word repent does not always suggest repenting of sin. Repent means to turn around. To change direction.
SPEAKER 07 :
Do a 180.
SPEAKER 02 :
Yeah, do a 180. Gotcha. So it doesn’t mean that God was doing the wrong thing. And fortunately, he repented before he went to hell or something. But he never does anything wrong. But he has promised that he will respond to our repentance and so forth. And then he will turn from the course that we would have faced from him.
SPEAKER 07 :
It’s just my Western teaching, you know, Western American teaching that That’s all that I can tell you.
SPEAKER 02 :
Amen. Amen. I’m out of time. Thank you for joining us. You’re listening to The Narrow Path. We are listener supported. If you want to help us out, go to our website, thenarrowpath.com. Take anything you want for free, or you can donate there at thenarrowpath.com.
