Broaden your understanding of biblical concepts as Steve Gregg engages with listeners on topics that continue to shape Christian thought. Examine the stark differences between biblical meditation and Eastern practices as Steve emphasizes keeping one’s mind attuned to the word of God rather than emptying it. Engage with real-life applications of theology as the implications of church discipline and the questions on divorce tackle both spiritual and everyday life concerns. Rounding off with interpretations of prophetic writing and a look at the amillennial view on rapture, this episode serves as a foundational piece for anyone seeking depth in their
SPEAKER 1 :
Thank you.
SPEAKER 04 :
Good afternoon and welcome to the Narrow Path radio broadcast. My name is Steve Gregg and we’re live for an hour each week the afternoon so that you can call in with your questions about the Bible or the Christian faith if you happen to have any and if you’ve been reading your Bible you do because you can’t read the Bible without having questions pop up. Well you can call and we can talk about them here if you’d like or you can call to disagree with the host if you see something differently. You’re not a Christian or maybe you’re a Christian who sees some point differently and would like to balanced comment, feel free to give me a call. You’re always welcome to do so. The number here is 844-484-5737. That’s 844-484-5737. It looks like our lines are full at the moment, but try in a few minutes and you may find that a line has opened up. We’d love to talk to you if we can. A few announcements about this weekend, including tonight. I’ll be speaking tonight in San Jose. I’m going to be speaking on the subject of biblical interpretation by genre. Now, that may sound very boring to anyone who’s not interested in studying the Bible, but most people who aren’t interested in studying the Bible aren’t interested in this program anyway, so that’s fine. But if you’re interested in studying the Bible in a way that you can actually understand it, we’ll be talking about principles of understanding and interpreting the Bible correctly. That’s tonight at 7 o’clock. It’s going to be held at the Central Christian Church on Meridian Avenue in San Jose. The actual address is found at our website. You can find it there, Central Christian Church in San Jose, tonight at 7. Tomorrow night, I’ll also be in San Jose, this time at 6 o’clock in the evening, at the Family Community Church on Piercy Road. And I’ll be talking about the Kingdom of God in the Q&A. after that tomorrow night so i’m in san jose tonight tomorrow in santa cruz tomorrow from two o’clock to five p.m this is the second annual santa cruz bible challenge as the hosts or the sponsors have referred to it and uh this is a place where you can ask me any question uh of course you could do it on the show too but you can bring your non-christian friends if you’d like we would like people who have unanswerable questions about the bible or challenges And if you have some unbelieving friends who have questions, urge them to come tomorrow from 2 o’clock p.m. to 5 o’clock p.m. in Santa Cruz. That’s going to be held on 7th Avenue at the VFW Hall. And then Monday, that’s Sunday, by the way. And then on Monday, I’m going to be speaking way up in Ukiah at the Trinity Baptist Church in Ukiah. And I think that’s just going to be, oh, yeah, I’m going to be talking about abiding in Christ, what it means to abide in Christ. And there will be a Q&A there, too. So that’s what’s happening this weekend. And I just want to make sure you all know because I won’t have another day on the air between now and then to tell you about it. All right, now we’re going to go to the phones and talk to some of these callers. Our first caller today is Michael calling from Denver, Colorado. Hi, Michael. Welcome.
SPEAKER 01 :
Hi, Steve. Thank you so much for taking my call. It’s great to talk with you again. And thank you as always for your, you know, thoughtful assessments. Every show means a lot. And so I just had a quick question, then I’ll take my answer off the air. And this is, it’s kind of a broad question, but so I wanted to ask about like certain parts of the Bible that could be considered stream of consciousness writing, like Ezekiel, for example, you know, certain parts of it that seems like, you kind of almost stream of consciousness where he kind of says whatever came into his mind and he wrote that down. And I just wanted to ask you, like, do you feel certain parts of the Bible are more stream of consciousness type writing?
SPEAKER 04 :
When you say stream of consciousness, of course, you’re talking about the subjective experience of the prophet who’s writing as opposed to, well, I don’t know if you’re thinking in terms of like automatic writing. I think not. It sounds like you’re thinking otherwise than that. there’s kind of an occult idea of someone going into a trance and a being speaking through them, a spirit guide or God or somebody speaking through them, and that they’re not really choosing what they say. And, of course, the Bible does not indicate that any of the books of the Bible were written that way. All the books of the Bible were written by, as it says in 2 Peter 3, 20, holy men of God who were moved. by the Holy Spirit. But what does it mean they were moved by the Holy Spirit? Well, it’s not entirely clear. I mean, if I feel a strong urge within me to do something that strikes me as the guidance of the Holy Spirit, I might say I’m moved by the Holy Spirit. But that’s obviously Peter saying something much more significant than that. Paul, of course, tells us in 2 Timothy 3 and verse 16 that all Scripture is given by inspiration of God, which is a King James expression. Actually, in the Greek, it means God breathed. God breathed out the scriptures for us, as it were. But he breathed them into the hearts and minds and spirits of individuals who were trusted individuals. And these prophets and apostles were the ones who wrote the books. And they very much each had their own kind of mental activity going on, I’m sure. And I don’t know exactly, when you talk about stream of consciousness, it almost sounds like you’re thinking that maybe they have a little sense of something that God might want to say, and they just kind of start rambling on anything that comes to their mind. I don’t think that’s how it happened, but I’ve never been a prophet nor an apostle, and therefore I’m not aware of what is really happening. in their heads when God is, you know, inspiring them. And it probably isn’t the same for all of them. For example, Daniel or Ezekiel, they talk about visions they’ve had, and they’re obviously writing about the visions after they’ve had them. They’re talking in the past tense. I was by the river Uli, and I saw such and such, or this was the first year of Darius, and I saw this vision. He’s obviously writing it afterward. And obviously the vision is the inspired thing. God inspired this message through this vision. And the man writes about it later. Now, I don’t know if he’s writing about it just from a good memory or if something supernatural is gripping him while he’s retelling the story. I personally suspect that these guys didn’t need to have some supernatural aid in retelling the story of the visions and dreams that God gave them. It would seem any competent person could do that adequately. But on the other hand, there are times when they begin to speak as oracles. They say, thus says the Lord, and they speak in the first person as if they are God speaking. The same prophets sometimes do that. Isaiah has visions, and he also has these kinds of oracles. So does Ezekiel. And the prophets in general. So, I mean, they have a variety of experiences. And I don’t think I’ve had any of the experiences that they have had, which makes it really impossible for me to… describe exactly how much their personal minds were thinking things up and to what degree they were, you know, God was kind of like streaming something through them. God said to Miriam and Aaron in Numbers chapter 12, verse 6, God said, Hear my words now. If there is a prophet among you, I, the Lord… make myself known to him in a vision. I speak to him in a dream. He says, not so with my servant Moses. He is faithful in all my house. I speak to him face to face and even plainly and not in dark sayings. And he sees the form of the Lord. So, I mean, prophets are one way. Moses is another way. Moses apparently had a more perfect revelation than even the prophets did. But God spoke to the prophets, he said, in visions and dreams and dark sayings. What do these say? What are these experiences like? I honestly don’t know. But I’ve never had the impression, and maybe I’m wrong, but I’ve never had the impression that the prophets just kind of went off and started preaching a sermon just off the top of their head and it was something that was just their own thoughts as opposed to something God was giving them. I’m sure that these men in private conversations spoke many things that God wasn’t giving them. They weren’t inspired every time they opened their mouth. But when they gave oracles and said, thus says the Lord, I think there was something special going on. Exactly what that was and how that felt to them, I just have no way of knowing, I’m afraid. I appreciate your call, and thanks for joining us. We’re going to talk to Alan in Bradford, Connecticut next. Alan, welcome to The Narrow Path. Thanks for calling.
SPEAKER 03 :
Well, that’s close, Steve. It’s Branford, like Raisin Bran, George, but that’s all right.
SPEAKER 04 :
Oh, okay. I have to say my Branford, Connecticut, is that what you’re saying? That’s it. Okay, go ahead. I thought I said it.
SPEAKER 03 :
Well, thanks, folks, for your many decades of study and having a voice to answer our question. Now, my question is this. From Revelation 11, verse 18… It says at the end of the verse, I will destroy those who destroy the earth. Now, is that destruction because of moral destruction of the earth, spiritual destruction, environmental destruction? Can you elaborate on that?
SPEAKER 04 :
That is difficult because the word earth in the Greek is also the same word for land. And there are certain parts of Revelation that I think are referring not to the earth as the globe, but as the land of Israel. The term the land is often a shortened term for Israel. And much of Revelation, I believe, is about the destruction of Israel in 70 AD. Though, in my opinion, this verse is not about the destruction of Israel. I think this is one that does talk about the end of the world. So that being so, you know, these people who destroy the earth probably does not refer to the destruction of Israel but of the world. Now, is that talking about environmental destruction or is it referring to moral destruction? It doesn’t specify. It certainly is wrong to destroy the world environmentally because obviously God gave us stewardship over the earth. When he made the earth, he put mankind over it to manage it. And if you’re given something, like if I give you my car to take care of for me while I’m on a trip away from home and you trash it and you run it into a brick wall and you don’t put oil in the engine and stuff, I mean, then I would hold you responsible for that. And so God gave us the earth to steward. And if we destroy it instead of taking good care of it, I would think that that would be something to answer to God for. Now, the reason that I’m not sure if that’s what’s referred to here is because God also speaks, for example, in the Old Testament of the Jews defiling the land by their sins, by their idolatry, and especially by shedding innocent blood. God said that defiles the land. And I’m not sure if he’s talking about them destroying the world in that sense, defiling the world like that, morally, like you suggested. And it could be that because people have certainly done that. But if I had to fall more on one side than the other, I think I’d go for the environmental aspect here. There’s been a bad stewardship of the earth, and God’s going to punish those who have wrecked his earth. All right. Thank you, Brad. I mean, yeah. Okay. Brantford was the town he was from. Okay. Let’s talk to Tom from Lewiston, Maine. Hi, Tom. Welcome. Welcome.
SPEAKER 06 :
Nice to you. Appreciate you. Hey, I’m doing another kind of a deep dive on meditation. And do you have, do you believe that, you know, it’s good to have like an apologetic answer to people who, and Christians who think that Eastern meditation is a way to grow spiritually rather than You know, biblical meditation where I’m thinking and dwelling on the scripture instead of trying not to think.
SPEAKER 04 :
Right. Well, Eastern meditation, such as you’d find in Hinduism and Buddhism and such, and Eastern cults, is a very different thing than what the Bible means by meditation. Because the Bible does speak frequently of the need to meditate day and night on the word of God. And it feeds you and it nourishes you and it waters you and it makes you fruitful and so forth. Now, if I’m meditating day and night on the Word of God, then I’m not going to have much time to empty my mind because I’m specifically trying to fill it with something of value. Now, the Eastern Meditation… is more an attempt to empty the mind. The idea is that, you know, you empty your mind and the universe or something will fill the void with insights, you know, which insights, by the way, when people claim to have them, they seem to be very similar to the insights they have on LSD or something like that. But I don’t know if you really can empty the mind, but if you did and you create a vacuum, I don’t think that’s a safe thing because I believe there are other forces out there besides you, that like to put thoughts in your mind. In fact, your friends would be glad to do so. Your friends share their opinions all the time. The only reason you don’t agree with everything your friends tell you or people tell you or that you hear online or that your teachers tell you or your parents, you don’t agree with everything they say because you’re keeping your mind turned on and you’re thinking and you know some things and you’re evaluating and discerning. what you hear. Now, the idea of Easter meditation would appear to be to get rid of all that discernment, get rid of everything you already assume, empty your mind as much as possible, and just let any thought flow in. Now, in addition to people who have bad ideas suggesting their thoughts, which they probably won’t be while you’re meditating because you’re probably in a quiet place, I believe there’s also demonic forces, and I believe people have been deceived by demons. So I would certainly not be one who would… think that Eastern meditation is of any value. It might even be a danger. Because, again, we’re supposed to be meditating on the Word of God. And Paul said in Philippians 4, famously, in verse 8, a lot of Christians know this verse, Finally, brethren, whatever things are true, whatever things are noble, whatever things are just, whatever things are pure, whatever things are lovely, whatever things are of good report, if there’s any virtue and if there’s anything praiseworthy, meditate on these things. In other words, he’s telling you what to meditate on. He’s telling you what to put into your mind to think about. Now, meditation just means to ruminate on something, to think about it a lot, to… so that you’re gleaning from it more insight. And with the Bible, with the Word of God, with good things, there’s always much to gain by that kind of meditation. It’s the opposite thing of what’s called meditation in Eastern religions. And it seems to me it has a totally different object in view. And so I would use your meditation.
SPEAKER 06 :
Thank you, sir. I appreciate you.
SPEAKER 04 :
If a wife is in physical danger in her home, or if the children are in physical danger in their home, I believe that a wife is justified in taking the children and finding a place of safety. Now, is that grounds for divorce?
SPEAKER 09 :
They should separate or at least find a safe place and try to work things out.
SPEAKER 04 :
That’s what I believe.
SPEAKER 09 :
And if the individual that’s committing the physical abuse isn’t willing to take the necessary steps to change, then it would be apparent that divorce may be appropriate for the safety, welfare of whether it’s female or male and the children.
SPEAKER 04 :
Yeah, I’d put a finer point on it than that. Suppose there is physical abuse. Most likely, in most cases, it would be the man abusing the woman, although it can be the other way around. But let’s say a man is abusing his wife physically, and she’s in danger. She feels that she and the children are in danger. She leaves, goes to her parents’ house or to a safe house of some other kind. And so she separates from him. Now, let’s say he has never committed adultery or done other things that would be clearly grounds for divorce. Well, then I don’t think she should divorce him. Now, on the other hand, suppose he never gets better. He remains dangerous. Perhaps he’s a violent criminal. Maybe he’s even got other victims of his criminal behavior. But he never commits adultery. Does she have no grounds for divorce? Well, what I would understand the Bible to teach is this. Remember Jesus said in Matthew 18, if your brother sins against you, go to him. If he repents, you have won your brother. If he doesn’t, take two more. If he doesn’t repent, take it to the church. If he doesn’t repent, then let him be counted as a heathen or a tax collector to you. So, This woman is not without recourse. If her husband is behaving sinfully, and certainly beating his wife is a sinful behavior, then he needs to repent. And if he doesn’t repent, then you go through the steps of church discipline that Jesus described. If he does not repent at any of those levels, then Jesus said you consider him to be a heathen. Now what does that mean? If he’s now recognized to be a heathen, and she’s a believer… Well, then what is she? She is a believer whose husband is not content to dwell with her. Now, some of you might say, well, he’s content to dwell with her. She’s not content to dwell with him. She doesn’t want to get beat up. Well, a man who’s beating his wife up is not content to dwell with her as a wife, because that’s not a wife. That’s a punching bag. If he’s not content to be a husband, and he’s a non-believer, and she’s a believer, then it seems like that’s the condition that Paul describes. where the woman would not be under bondage in a case like that. I mean, it may sound like there’s a lot of complexities, but it’s really relatively simple principles. You keep your covenant.
SPEAKER 09 :
This person is looking for a way out.
SPEAKER 04 :
Yeah.
SPEAKER 09 :
For a non-biblical or using the Bible to try to justify their wrong. And they know it, but they say the Lord said something. And how should we apply that to people? Should we… do those steps if we know someone’s in a situation like or you know a divorce situation or leaving their husband or wife I do I do think so with them and try to get them on the right track and if they do we go to get another brother yeah I think so in first Corinthians 5 Paul said if anyone claims to be a brother that is a Christian
SPEAKER 04 :
and yet they’re a fornicator or an adulterer, and it gives a long list of things. Then he says, don’t even associate with them, don’t even eat with them. Now, a person who leaves their spouse is a covenant breaker, unless they’ve got grounds for leaving. If they remarry or get involved with someone else, then they’re an adulterer too. Now, if a person claims to be a Christian, and they’re doing these things that are sinful, they’re covenant breakers and adulterers, then certainly I think any Christian who cares about them should confront them gently, you know, caringly. You know what Paul said in Galatians 6.1. You know, brethren, if any of you are overtaken in a fault, you who are spiritual, restore such a one in a spirit of meekness, you know, considering yourself, lest you also be tempted. So, in other words, you confront them, but you don’t do it in a caustic, accusatory, condemning way. You go to them gently. You go to them entreatingly. You try to persuade them to recognize the error of their way and to do what’s right. If they don’t do it, then you go through the other steps.
SPEAKER 09 :
So then you get another brother or sister.
SPEAKER 04 :
That’s what Jesus said.
SPEAKER 09 :
But if they still refuse to talk to you, then you go to the leader.
SPEAKER 04 :
Yeah. Now, see, a lot of churches today don’t want to obey Jesus about this. I mean, Jesus gave extremely clear teaching about this. I mean, it’s not ambiguous at all. But I’d say eight out of ten churches refuse to do this. I mean, you can show them what Jesus said, and they just say, I don’t care. We’re not going to do that here. That’s just because the churches are in absolute rebellion against their head. They claim to be the body of Christ, but they’re not holding the head. They won’t do what Jesus said. And therefore, they’re not worthy to be called churches at all. And the church leaders who refuse to do what Jesus said should be thrown out of their position because they are not following Christ, nor are they leading the sheep to follow Christ.
SPEAKER 09 :
But they’re not because the members are going to uphold them. Because nobody’s perfect. That’s the famous phrase, nobody’s perfect. So they let them keep doing what they do.
SPEAKER 04 :
Right. When you talk about church discipline, people always come up with that. You know, well, nobody’s perfect. We’re not going to kick everyone out of the church because they’re sinners. No.
SPEAKER 02 :
Steve is not in the studio today, so calls from listeners will not be taken. In place of the usual format, we have put together some of the best calls from past programs. They cover a variety of topics important to anyone interested in the Bible and Christianity. And now, please enjoy this special collection of calls to The Narrow Path.
SPEAKER 04 :
We’re going to go to the phone lines now and talk to Ryan from Kansas City.
SPEAKER 07 :
Good to talk to you again, Brother Steve. Appreciate it. A few months ago, you had given an enlightening discussion on the concept of sola scriptura. And I’m trying to recollect some of the details. I just thought I’d call and ask you quickly again… You’ve mentioned some parts of that idea or that tradition that you did subscribe to and other parts that perhaps you felt like were not biblical or were good for an evangelical Christian to subscribe to. Would you mind commenting perhaps afresh on what Sola Scriptura is and if you feel like it’s a practice we Christians should be engaging in? And I appreciate that.
SPEAKER 04 :
Well, I do agree with Sola Scriptura as I understand it. Luther, of course… is famous for having brought up the idea of sola scriptura as a part, and contrasting from what the Roman Catholic approaches, the Roman Catholics felt like the scripture and church tradition equally are authoritative in determining what Christians should believe and do. Luther said, no, only the scriptures are authoritative in that respect. And sola scriptura means only scripture. Now, I agree with him. I agree that scripture alone carries the authority that we must recognize and follow in faith and practice. So if the Bible doesn’t teach something to be true, I don’t feel obligated to believe it, even if the church tradition says it’s true. If the Bible doesn’t say I’m required to do a certain thing, I don’t think I have to do it, even if the church tradition says I do have to. So sola scriptura simply means that not tradition and scripture, but just scripture. are the final authority for Christians in all matters of faith and practice. Now, what that doesn’t mean, it doesn’t mean that God never communicates His will other than through Scripture. Certainly, every Christian has the Holy Spirit, and the Bible says as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the children of God. We know many things from other sources other than Scripture. For example, we learn things from science. We learn things from experience. We know things from having been there and seen it with our own eyes. we know people that are not mentioned in Scripture but who are real in our lives. There’s lots of things we know that we don’t know them from the Scripture. But with reference to the distinctives of Christian practice and worldview, there’s no more authoritative source than the Scriptures on this because the Scriptures were written by the prophets and apostles that Jesus and God chose to reveal His will to mankind. So, The Scripture is entirely unique, a unique authority. And on the matters about which it speaks, it speaks above the authority of all others. Now, church authority, church tradition, would be at a lower rung. There may be something positive to be said about some church traditions if they’re not unscriptural traditions. But if they are not taught in Scripture, and they’re only taught by an organization or church leaders… I don’t consider that they carry the same authority as the Scriptures. That’s how I understand soul of Scripture. It doesn’t mean we don’t know anything except what the Bible says. We know many things from other sources. But when it comes to knowing about God and God’s will and the truths about God and things that are distinctive of the Christian worldview and ethics and so forth, the Bible speaks with a voice that stands above all other authorities, including others. Church authorities. And so that’s what is meant by Sola Scriptura.
SPEAKER 07 :
Okay, that’s very helpful. So you’d say it’s Luther’s opinion against tradition being as authoritative as Scripture. Would you also say it has to do with the so-called magisterium of the Church that kind of interprets what the text would mean?
SPEAKER 04 :
Yeah, that’s what the tradition of the Church to the Catholic is. What the magisterium, the College of Bishops, and the Pope, whatever they officially decide to be true, becomes the church tradition for the Roman Catholic Church. And Luther, of course, was a Roman Catholic. He was a monk. But he objected to this, and he felt like, no, we should go by only what the Scripture says. The magisterium and popes and so forth don’t have the same kind of authority. And that’s why he got kicked out of the Roman Church, because he took that position. Gotcha.
SPEAKER 07 :
Okay, that’s very helpful. I’m seeing a rise of new apostles and prophets who are claiming to be the new magisterium for the evangelical church and interpreting the Scripture. I just think the Holy Scripture is very helpful to show through the wheat and the tares there. I appreciate it, Steve. Amen.
SPEAKER 04 :
Okay, thanks, Ryan, for your call. Clifford from Novato, California. Welcome to The Narrow Path. Thanks for calling.
SPEAKER 08 :
I have a question about James, too. Unfortunately… I’m going to a church where the preaching pastors preach the message, and then I got in a discussion with one of the other elders that is an elder at the same church, and they disagree on the meaning of James 2, specifically in verse 14, where it says, What good is it, my brothers, if a man claims to have faith but has no deed? Can such a faith save him? Now, the two opposing views on this is that, and I want to get your advice on what you think it is, but, you know, he believes in sola fide. So faith alone is what saves us, or they both believe in sola fide. But one pastor says it’s our faith that saves us, but it’s our works that justifies our faith. Now, the other elder is saying that he disagrees with that. And he says that it’s not talking about like where it says, can such a faith save him? Well, he says he’s not talking about salvation there. He’s talking about can it save us our physical life or something like that. I never heard that before, but I wanted to get your opinion on it.
SPEAKER 04 :
Well, first of all, the second man whose view you just expressed seems to be really kind of, If you’re representing his statements correctly, he seems to be really kind of out in left field. I mean, there’s certainly nothing in the Bible in this passage that talks about your faith saving you from physical death or physical harm anyway.
SPEAKER 08 :
I’m sorry to interrupt you, but he also, it’s not just his opinion, but he gave me a book from Zane Hodges, which is called Absolutely Free.
SPEAKER 04 :
Yeah, Zane Hodges. Zane Hodges, I would toss that book, frankly. Yeah, Zane Hodges is an antinomian. I believe that absolutely free in his book, I believe he basically is coming against what he would call lordship salvation.
SPEAKER 08 :
Right. The subtitle is A Biblical Reply to Lordship Salvation.
SPEAKER 04 :
Right. And, of course, lordship salvation is simply biblical salvation. The Bible teaches that if you confess that Jesus is Lord, you’ll be saved. So, you know, when Jesus… is acknowledged as your Lord, then he becomes your Savior, because that’s when you’re saved. Paul said that in Romans 10, 9, and of course there’s nothing in the Bible to refute that anywhere. Now, see, the issue here is that the first pastor you mentioned, apparently, believes that good works and obedience to God are a proof of your faith. That sounds like a proof, and that would be true, and that’s what James very clearly says. James says, show me your faith without works, and I’ll show you my faith by my works. In just a verse or so after that. So the idea is that you show that you have faith by your works. And that’s because if you do have faith, you’ll have works. Just like if you have life in your body, you’ll have a heartbeat. You can look at a corpse and say, you know, he looks alive to me. Well, I say, well, let’s check his heartbeat. There’s no pulse. Okay, then I’d say, however alive he looks, he’s dead, because he has no pulse. If he had life in him, the evidence of life would be vital signs. And what I believe that James is saying, and what Paul would say too, and every biblical writer would say, Jesus said it too, that if you have a genuine relationship with God, if you have eternal life, if you have the life of Christ in you, there are vital signs. And among those vital signs are are going to be seen in the way you live your life. Now, Jesus said, if you love me, keep my commandments. So that’s Jesus saying it. Paul said, what matters to God is a faith that works through love, in Galatians 5.4. And James makes it very clear that a faith that doesn’t have works is a dead faith. But none of these people are talking about your faith as something that preserves you in life, you know, against physical concerns. It’s talking about salvation. in terms of being in a relationship with God. Your relationship with God is seen in the way you live.
SPEAKER 08 :
But the second pastor and also Zane Hodges would argue that you’re against sola fide and that it’s… Well, why would he say that?
SPEAKER 04 :
Why would they say that?
SPEAKER 08 :
Well, I mean, as far as you’re including works.
SPEAKER 04 :
Well, yeah, the Bible includes works everywhere. Any doctrine that doesn’t include works isn’t a Bible doctrine. Do you know every… Every place in the Bible that speaks about the judgment says that the judgment will be a consideration of people’s works. Jesus said that in Matthew 16, 28. He said the Son of Man will come with his holy angels with him, and he’ll reward everyone according to his works. Jesus said when he comes, he’s going to separate the people like sheep from the goats, and he’s going to look at their works. I was hungry, and you fed me. I was naked, and you clothed me. You go into eternal life. I was naked, you didn’t clothe me. I was hungry, you didn’t feed me. Well, you go to the eternal fire. Paul made it very clear that judgment is by works. If you read Romans 2, verses 5 and following, it says that Christ will render to everyone according to their deeds, and it goes into detail about that. James, of course, talks about the need for works. Peter, in 1 Peter 1.17, says if you call God Father… who without respect of person judges everyone according to their works without partiality, past the time of your journey here in fear. In Revelation, the books are opened at the judgment, and everyone is judged according to his works. Paul said that Jesus will come and give everyone what they’ve done in their body. There’s not one writer in the New Testament that speaks of the judgment as being anything other than a judgment of people’s works. Now, why would that be? If we’re saved by faith, why would we be judged by works? The reason is because if we are saved by faith, the proof of it will be in our works. Now, you know, and if we say we’re saved by faith, but we don’t have those works, then we aren’t really saved by faith because we really don’t have that faith. I mean, again, I mentioned it a moment ago, Galatians 5, 6. Paul said in Christ, circumcision doesn’t count for anything and uncircumcision doesn’t count for anything. But what counts with God is, he said, a faith that works through love. Now, he didn’t say a faith plus works. He said a faith that works. Okay? And that’s what James is talking about. James is not talking about having faith plus works. He’s talking about having a faith that works. The works are what is generated from faith. Like fruit is generated from a fruit tree. If you say, that tree in my front yard, that’s an avocado tree. But it doesn’t ever bear any avocados. In fact, maybe it bears something entirely different. Maybe it bears oranges. well, then you’re going to say, well, that’s not an avocado tree. And if someone says, well, you can make it one by, you know, stapling up some avocados on some of those twigs there, then you’ll have an avocado tree. No, you don’t. You don’t add fruit to the tree to make it a fruit tree. If it is a fruit tree, it produces the fruit. You don’t make your faith genuine by adding artificial works in a legalistic way to your life. If you have a genuine salvation… those good works will be generated from your life because you will have a new life. And a new life is, you know, God says he writes his laws on your heart and in your inward parts so that your heart is emanating obedience to God. See, Zane Hodges and Charles Ryrie and a few others like them have argued that you don’t have to have any good works to be a good Christian. And that just doesn’t agree with any writer of scripture. It certainly doesn’t agree with Jesus either. Jesus said, he that hears these words of mine and does not do them is like a foolish man who builds his house on sand.
SPEAKER 08 :
Right.
SPEAKER 04 :
But he that hears these words of mine and does them is like a wise man who builds his house on rock. And what happens? The man who builds his house on sand, it collapses in the judgment. The man who builds his house on rock, he survives the judgment. What’s the difference between building your house on sand and building your house on rocks? It’s when you hear what Jesus said and you do it or you don’t do it. Jesus never gave instructions just to interrupt the silence, just because he thought it was too quiet, and so he thought he’d give out a few commands. He gave commands to be obeyed, because he’s the Lord. Zane Hodges doesn’t insist that people must recognize Jesus as Lord, in which case he teaches a gospel that’s contrary to anything Paul or Jesus or Peter or James or the writer of Hebrews or any other biblical writer. No biblical writer teaches that you’re saved by faith apart. from any kind of change in your life. Faith that is a saving faith changes your life. A faith that doesn’t change your life is not a saving faith. That’s why James says, you know, the demons also believe and tremble.
SPEAKER 08 :
What he’s saying is… Like James says, what good is that faith?
SPEAKER 04 :
Yeah, what good is that faith? He’s saying the devils have a certain kind of faith too. Obviously, it’s not the kind that saves anyone because it doesn’t change the way they live. And anyone who says they have faith and the way they live hasn’t changed doesn’t have that faith. Now, if Zane Hodges says, well, now you’re adding works as a necessity. No, I’m not adding any works. I’m saying you need to have that faith. If you have that faith, those works will be there. Just like if you have life, you’ll be breathing and your heart will be beating. There will be the evidence of life. There will be vital signs. Good works are the vital signs that show that a person is saved. They don’t save them. One could argue that breathing and heart beating makes people alive and therefore generate life, but I don’t think so. I think it’s the fact that we’re alive that makes the heart beat and makes the breathing take place. Obviously, if you stop breathing, your heart stops beating, you’re going to die, but it won’t start up again unless you come alive again, because presence of life in you has evidence. Presence of eternal life has evidence, too, and that’s in person’s works. When Zane Hodges says, but then that’s not sola fide. Well, where in the Bible does it say we’re supposed to determine who’s right and wrong by some appeal to some Latin phrase, sola fide? Sola fide says faith alone. That is, we’re saved by faith alone. Well, maybe we are saved by faith alone.
SPEAKER 08 :
That’s what you’re saying, that James contradicts. If you interpret it the way what you’re saying, then it contradicts what Paul is saying. By faith alone it saves us.
SPEAKER 04 :
Wait, wait, wait. No, no, no. I just showed you. Paul said the same thing.
SPEAKER 08 :
I agree with what you’re saying. I’m bringing up their argument because I’ve been dealing with both of these elders and I’m trying to sort through their arguments. It makes sense what you’re saying. I want to know how to… You’re bringing up a lot of good points for me to talk with this elder.
SPEAKER 04 :
If they think that faith without works will save… then they’ve got to go against what James said and against what Paul said and against what Jesus said and against what the writer of Hebrews said. Look at Hebrews 11. It talks about all the people who had faith and who were saved by faith in the Old Testament. It says, by faith they, what? By faith Noah built an ark. Why? Because God told him to. He obeyed God. By faith, Abraham left his homeland. Why? Well, because God told him to. By faith, these people obeyed God. That’s the point. As you go through the Old Testament hall of faith in Hebrews 11, what you see is these people who had faith, it says, by faith they did something. And what they did happened to be what God told them to do. So because they had faith in God, they obeyed God. And that’s the point the writer of Hebrews is bringing up. But there simply is no writer in the New Testament, least of all Paul, who says you can be saved by faith if you have no works. When Paul talks about works in a negative sense, he’s talking specifically about the works of the Jewish law. And by that he means the ceremonial law. He’s talking about circumcision. He’s talking about keeping festivals. He’s talking about keeping the ceremonies. Because whenever he’s talking against works, he’s talking against Judaizers. And the Judaizers were the ones who were trying to say, yes, okay, you can be saved by faith, but you still have to get circumcised. You still have to eat a kosher diet. You still have to keep the Jewish festivals. You still have to be a good proselyte to Judaism. And Paul said, none of those works matter. You’re saved by faith without any of those works. You know, that’s what Paul’s getting at in those few places where Paul seems to say something negative about works. He’s not talking about good works generally, which is basically a shorthand way of saying good behavior, good dealings. Listen, let me show you what Paul says in Titus. Take these verses down and show them to your friend. Paul wrote Titus, right? And it talks about certain wicked people. In Titus 1, 15 and 16, it says, To the pure all things are pure, but to those who are defiled and unbelieving, nothing is pure. Even their mind and their conscience are defiled. They profess to know God, but in works… They deny him. Okay?
SPEAKER 08 :
Titus 1.16?
SPEAKER 04 :
Well, yeah, that’s Titus 1.16. In works, they deny him. So by disobeying God, they prove that their profession of knowing him is false. But then look down in chapter 2, verses 11 and 12. It says, For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men, teaching us. that denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly in this present age. What teaches us that? He says the grace of God teaches us that. And then look at what he says about Christ in verse 14. Titus 2.14, he says that Christ gave himself for us that he might redeem us from every lawless deed and purify for himself his own special people zealous for good works. Okay, doesn’t sound like Paul’s against good works there. Then in chapter 3, verse 1, Titus 3, 1, Paul says, Remind them, meaning the Christians, to be subject to rulers and authorities, to obey and to be ready for every good work. I mean, it’s like Paul’s again and again saying that we should be, look at Titus 3, 14. Paul says, And let our people also learn to maintain good works. To meet urgent needs. So, I mean, Paul’s not against good works. There’s six times in these three chapters Paul says that Christians should have good works and that people who profess to know God, but their works deny him because they don’t have good works. He says they’re deceivers, they’re wicked people. So, I mean, Paul never had a doctrine that you can be a Christian without good works. What he taught was you’re saved by faith, not by having done enough good works. but that the faith that saves you is a faith that works through love. Let’s talk to Craig from Roseville, California. Hi, Craig. Welcome to The Narrow Path. Thanks for calling.
SPEAKER 05 :
Hi, Steve. Thanks. I had a question. On the amillennial view, how much time is there between the rapture, when the dead rise first and then the living follow, and the second coming, when he comes in all his glory and sets his foot upon… the Mount of Olives, how much time in between? Because on the dispensational view, there’s basically the seven years. I was curious on the all-millennial view of how much time.
SPEAKER 04 :
Right. The all-millennial view sees essentially no time in between. It’s the same day. Now, there might be minutes between or something like that, but Jesus said he will raise his people up on the last day in John 6.40 and also John 6.44. In John 6.54, actually several times in John 6, Jesus speaks about his people and says he will raise them up on the last day. Now raising them up I take to mean the resurrection and the rapture because Paul puts those in very close proximity in 1 Corinthians chapter 15 and in 1 Thessalonians chapter 4. Both places he speaks about the dead shall be raised and then he talks about the living being changed or caught up to meet the Lord in the air with them. That all occurs, apparently, on what Jesus called the last day when he raises them up. Now, there’s different theories of an alternative sort that have arisen in reasonably modern times. You’re right. The dispensationalist usually places seven years between the rapture and the actual physical second coming of Christ to earth. There are some mid-tribulations who place three and a half years as the interval between. And then there’s pre-wrath rapture people who place a shorter time. shorter than three and a half years in between. But the Bible doesn’t really place any period of time in between, really. John 5, 28 and 29, Jesus said, the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear his voice and come forth. Those who’ve done good to the resurrection of life, that’d be Christians. Those who’ve done evil to the resurrection of condemnation, that’d be the non-Christians. Now, the non-Christians are raised on the last day also. According to John 12, 48, which says, you know, he that rejects my words has one who condemns him or judges him. The words that I’ve spoken unto you will judge you in the last day. So in the last day, the wicked will be judged by Christ’s words. And in the last day, the righteous will be raised, Jesus said. So we’ve got the resurrection of the righteous and the wicked on the same day. In fact, John 5, 28 says in the same hour. So, you know, I don’t know the exact number of minutes between But anyone who places more than a day in between seems to be going beyond what the Scripture’s language would authorize.
SPEAKER 05 :
It doesn’t give you enough time to get your hair done or anything before coming back down.
SPEAKER 04 :
No, it doesn’t. It doesn’t give us any time at all like that. Well, the idea of the rapture in the Bible, unlike that in dispensational theology, is of a meeting the Lord as he’s descending. As he’s descending… we go up like a welcoming committee from earth to meet him in the air and to descend the rest of the way with him. This is actually the word that is used in 1 Thessalonians 4, where it says we, in verse 17, we shall meet the Lord in the air. The word meet is a word that’s used two other times in scripture. One is Matthew 25, 1, where it says the ten virgins went out to meet the bridegroom. Now, if you know the Jewish bridal customs, they were going out to meet him, to accompany him the remainder of his journey. He’s coming from wherever he is to the bride’s house. And these people are at the bride’s house, and they’re going to go out and meet him like a welcoming committee and accompany him on the last leg of his trip. That’s what the word meet means. Also, we have the same word used in Acts 28 when it says that Paul, who was shipwrecked in Malta, actually walked north to Rome, And the Christians in Rome heard that he was coming and they went out to meet him. Well, again, going out to meet him meant going out to welcome him and to accompany him on the final leg of his journey into Rome. So meeting, this particular word meet, which is used three times in scripture, always means to go out as a welcoming committee, as it were, to meet somebody who’s on a journey and to accompany them on the final stage of that journey. So as Jesus is coming from heaven to earth, we, the church, will go up to meet him. in the air, and to continue with him on the final stage of his journey back here. Okay. Thank you. God bless you. You’ve been listening to the Narrow Path radio broadcast. My name is Steve Gregg. We’re on Monday through Friday at this same time, and we continue some of these discussions, and we have new discussions day by day. If you’d like to help us stay on the air, we are listener-supported, and we do buy the time on the radio stations that we’re on. If you’d like to help us pay for that time and stay on the air, you can write to The Narrow Path, P.O. Box 1730, Temecula, California, 92593. Or go to our website, thenarrowpath.com. You can donate from there or take any of the resources that are all free at thenarrowpath.com. Thanks for joining us.
