Join Steve Gregg as he delves into the intriguing concepts of partial preterism and the fulfillment of biblical prophecies. Engage in a profound discussion on how these interpretations differ from full preterism and futurism. Discover how understanding the historical context of prophecy can enrich our reading and comprehension of biblical texts.
SPEAKER 1 :
Thank you.
SPEAKER 09 :
Good afternoon and welcome to the Narrow Path radio broadcast. My name is Steve Gregg and we’re live for an hour each weekday afternoon, taking your calls. If you have questions about the Bible or the Christian faith, I would be glad to talk to you. You can call in here. Right now I’m looking at what appears to be an open switchboard, meaning I don’t think there’s any calls waiting, unless something’s not showing up on my screen, as it should. It’s a very unusual situation, but it happens from time to time, which is your opportunity to Since almost every day, we have to end the program with still people waiting to go on. We usually have more calls than we can actually take in the hour. Right now, I’m looking at all open lines, and if you want to get through this, this is a pretty good time to do it. If you call right now, the first several to call will certainly be on the program today. The number is 844-484-5737. Once again, the number is 844- 484-5737. And so we’ll be glad to hear from you anytime in the next hour, but this is probably one of the most opportune times to get through, probably in the whole hour. We’ve got some people calling in, but we still have some lines open. All right, I just want to make some announcements. I realize that I’ve been talking about this all week, but that’s kind of what I have to do. I’m away from home. I’m in Texas. I’ve been speaking in Texas for the last five days or so. I’ve got maybe another five days, six days. I think five days before I head home again. And I’m speaking tomorrow night, that’s Wednesday, and Thursday in the Houston area. Thursday night, I will be speaking, I’m sorry, Wednesday night, I’ll be speaking in Brookshire, Texas. And on Thursday night, I’ll be speaking in Friendswood, Texas, both of which are near Houston. And that’s all I’m going to be doing in the Houston area. The next three nights I’ll be speaking in the Dallas area. And if you’re in those areas and want to join us for our meetings, you’re certainly welcome to do so. You want information about time and place? Well, that’s what you’ll find at our website. Go to thenarrowpath.com and then click the tab that says Announcements, and you’ll find everything you need to know. and we’ll be glad to see you any of these nights while I’m still in Texas. The next two nights, not tonight, but tomorrow and the next night, I’ll be in the Houston area, and then the following three nights in the Dallas area, several different places. All right, we’re going to talk to Ryan from Linwood, Washington, first of all today. Ryan, welcome to The Narrow Path. Thanks for calling.
SPEAKER 07 :
Hi, Steve. So I just have a comment, and my question is, if you could just talk about it. And that’s – sorry, give me just one second. So partial preterism, you know, amillennial, optimistic amillennial partial preterist, that’s what I believe after, you know, weighing all the evidence, you know, and learning from you and stuff like that. And I find that it’s just also an extremely rich experience, It’s like the most rich experience of studying the Bible. I feel like you get the most out of it. It’s the most satisfying. And I was just wondering if you could talk on that subject.
SPEAKER 09 :
All right. Thank you.
SPEAKER 07 :
If you know what I’m trying to say.
SPEAKER 09 :
I think so. Yeah. Thank you.
SPEAKER 07 :
And I’ll just listen on the radio. All right. Good talking. All right.
SPEAKER 09 :
Partial preterism, most of my listeners probably know what that means. There may be new listeners or some who just don’t know what that means, so I’ll tell you. Partial preterism is to be contrasted with futurism and also with full preterism. Now, this can get confusing, but the word preter in Latin means past, so it’s the opposite of future. Futurism is one way to approach prophecy. You see certain prophecies in the Bible and you say, well, these have not been fulfilled yet, so their fulfillment must lie in the future. To reach such a conclusion about any prophecy is to take a futurist interpretation of that prophecy. Now, a preterist interpretation of the same, let’s say, the same prophecy would be to say, no, I think that one was already fulfilled in the past. In other words, we know that the prophecies of the Old Testament were thousands of years ago predicted. And the question is, have these prophecies been fulfilled in the meantime? Now, my answer is, some of them have. And I think, frankly, all Christians believe that some of them have. Because, obviously, there’s prophecies that were about the Babylonian exile, which took place 500 and 600 years before Christ. There’s lots of prophecies about things like the fall of Edom or the Philistines or the Moabites, which these are extinct people. We know they were fulfilled in the past. So if you read any given prophecy in the Bible and say, well, that’s clearly been, or I interpret that to have been fulfilled in the past, you are taking a preterist approach to that particular prophecy. If you say, no, I don’t think it was fulfilled in the past. I think it’s going to be fulfilled in the future. Well, then, in many cases, you’re not very knowledgeable, but that’s okay. None of us knows everything. And you are, in that case, taking a futurist approach. You’re saying, okay, this prophecy has a future fulfillment as opposed to one that is now already past. Now, there’s partial preterists and full preterists. And this has to do with the way they take the whole body of prophecy in the Bible. The full preterist… believes that every prophecy in the Bible was fulfilled in the past. They usually would say, with the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 AD, the last of them were fulfilled, and they don’t believe there’s any future predictions to be fulfilled. This is called full preterism, because it means the full body of Scripture, of prophecy in Scripture, has been fulfilled in the past. Now, I don’t believe that is a viable position, though many people hold it. It’s a growing position. It arose in the 1970s, pretty much. And it’s grown, especially with the coming of the Internet, a lot of websites about it. And they would argue that there’s no future prophecies to be fulfilled. That is, when you read about the second coming of Christ, that already happened in 70 AD, they would say, spiritually. The resurrection of the dead, they say that already happened spiritually in 70 AD. The new heavens and the new earth, well, that already happened. The final judgment, that already happened. Everything that most Christians believe remains to be fulfilled in the future, the full preterist says, no, everything has already happened, including that. And things that, you know, when you read the prophecies, you say, well, that certainly hasn’t happened. They would say, well, it did spiritually or in some other sense. So the full preterists are a very small minority of Christians, and their view is quite at odds with historic Christianity of every stripe. I mean, when we talk about historic Christianity, we could include Roman Catholic, Eastern Orthodox, Coptic, Protestant of all denominations. All Christianity of the past believed that there is a future second coming of Christ and that some prophecies remain to be fulfilled. the full preterists are, in terms of, you know, church history, are heretical. You know, their views are, you know, they part company with the rest of the whole body of Christ. Everybody before 1970, let’s say, was wrong as far as they’re concerned, and they alone are right. This kind of attitude, you know, is to me very dangerous. So I would warn against full preterism. But on the other hand, Every Christian is a partial preterist. And partial preterism just means that part of the prophecies, some of the prophecies, not all of them, have been fulfilled in the past. Now, I don’t know of any Christian who doesn’t believe that. For one thing, most Christians believe that Jesus fulfilled in his first coming, in his lifetime, hundreds of Old Testament prophecies that were about him. So those are past. When we Christians read those, if you read an Old Testament prophecy about the Messiah in Isaiah… Every Christian says, well, that was fulfilled. Jesus came. He’s fulfilled that prophecy. So Christians take a preterist approach to those kinds of prophecies, whereas, say, Jews who are not Christians would say, no, those are still in the future. The Messiah has not come yet. So, you see, when we talk about futurism or preterism, we have to take it case by case. There’s, let’s say, thousands of prophecies in the Bible, at least hundreds. Some of them have been fulfilled in the past. Some of them have not. And the partial preterist is one who says, some have not. But why wouldn’t we just use the word Christian then for a partial preterist? Because the partial preterist, at least those who are identified by that name, usually mean that there are some prophecies that most Christians today interpret in a futuristic way, which in fact shouldn’t be taken in a futuristic way. And often they’re talking about the book of Revelation. talking about the Olivet Discourse in Matthew 24. A number of prophecies about judgment are seen not as the final judgment, not the end of the world, but really about 70 A.D. Now, I’m a partial preterist in that sense. And our caller was saying that it’s enriching to see the Bible that way. What he means, I think, is to say once you start studying the Bible and you recognize the times in which it was written The things that were about to happen in the days of Jesus and the apostles, which they spoke about a number of things that they said were about to happen. Some of the things, of course, in Matthew 24, Jesus said this generation will not pass until these things occur. And in Revelation, there are many references in Revelation to the things in that book would happen soon. these things are about to take place, it sometimes says. Time is near. So, you know, there are places in the Bible that we have typically thought, oh, this is probably talking about the end of the world, but where the Bible itself says it was not going to be about the end of the world, it’s going to be about something happening soon from their point of view. And we’re talking about the point of view of Jesus and the apostles. And, of course, the destruction of Jerusalem happened within their generation, just as Jesus predicted that it would. So, when we read the Gospels and the New Testament, we recognize that some of those things, even things that lots of Christians have perhaps mistakenly applied to the end of the world and the future second coming of Christ, a lot of those things are not predicting that. They’re not talking about that. They’re talking about something that was much closer and which did occur. And therefore, we would take a preterist view of those things. But Unlike the full preterist, a partial preterist recognizes that some things still are future. The end of the world has not occurred. The new heavens, the new earth, the resurrection of the dead, the final judgment, the second coming of Christ, those things have not occurred. But it’s easy enough to see how people make mistakes because sometimes things that are not the second coming of Christ are spoken of in language that which we’d call apocalyptic language, which sounds like it’s the end of the world kind of stuff. And this is where a deeper study of the language of the Jews in a prophecy has yielded a lot of help. And the partial preterist view has long roots in history. I mean, the full preterist view is brand new. But the partial preterist view about, let’s say, The Olivet Discourse, Matthew 24. The idea that Matthew 24 is talking about the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 AD, I mean, that’s affirmed by Eusebius, the earliest church historian after Luke. Eusebius, writing in 325, said that the things that Jesus said in the Olivet Discourse were about 70 AD. And of course they are. It’s obvious to see that. Jesus predicts the destruction of the temple. And they decide to say, when will this be? And he tells them. This generation won’t pass until they come to pass. And certainly it’s one of the most accurate, specific, time-sensitive prophecies that Jesus gave, which happened exactly within the time frame that he said. I don’t know why any Christians would avoid that conclusion when it’s obviously true. The early Christians recognized it was true. And it’s one of the best testimonies of the inspiration of Christ’s prophetic powers. Anyway, it’s exciting to be able to read the Scripture and not have to explain things away. Like many people explain away, Jesus saying, this generation will not pass, or Revelation saying, these things will shortly take place. And in doing so, I would say an honest person has to feel a little awkward, a little uncomfortable. Like, okay, I’ve got to get some kind of explanation of this to make it not mean what it says. And it’s always nice when you get a place where you say, wait a minute, I don’t have to make it mean something different than what it says. I can just make it at face value. And that is a relief. And I think that probably is the subjective feeling of enrichment that our caller was talking about. Let’s talk to Ben in Vancouver, B.C. Ben, welcome to The Narrow Path. Thanks for calling.
SPEAKER 02 :
Yes, sir. Thanks for taking my call. I promise I’ve got an easy question, actually. I’ve got family and friends who are more and more getting interested in the lord but they’re not at the i would like to come to church or take your you know copy of your bible are there any ministries tv programs especially if some of them are older and they like going to the tv like tv programs that you trust because most of them i don’t anymore when i got saved right this is your day with benny and was kind of cool i’m not keen on him anymore at all so just any sort of programs especially sort of that you would trust, because I trust your judgment on that kind of thing, and so much out there is just so European weird.
SPEAKER 09 :
Well, I can’t really recommend any, not because there aren’t any. There might be some very good ones on there, but I don’t watch Christian television. I do listen to Christian radio some, obviously, and I think that Christian TV features… more glitzy kinds of presentations, usually of the word of faith kind of type of Christianity. At least the major Christian networks that have been around longest on TV are pretty much controlled by word of faith people, the health and wealth gospel people. And, you know, I just have no interest in watching them. But I know that these stations also have programs on by people who are not of that view. But I just don’t know who’s on there. So I can’t recommend anything on Christian TV. And by saying that, I’m not saying there’s nothing on there that I could recommend. It’s just saying that whatever may be on there that I maybe could recommend, I don’t know what’s on there because I haven’t seen it. So I’m afraid not. People are getting their religion from TV. I guess maybe it’s better than nothing if the religious ideas they’re getting are okay. Unfortunately, religious TV is very dominated to a very large degree by the Word of Faith movement, health and wealth gospel. But on these same stations, I’m pretty sure you’ll find some people who are buying program time who aren’t of that view and may be very good. I know that… Like Charles Stanley, for example, I think is on Christian TV on these stations. If I’m not mistaken, I know he’s dead now, but when he was alive, I know he was on there. But I like Charles Stanley. I don’t agree with some of his theology, but I would certainly say I would have no objection to a non-Christian watching Stanley and getting their views of Christ from him. Anyway, yeah, I’m sorry I can’t do much about it. recommending TV programs only because, you know, I don’t watch it. I don’t know what is on there. So I can’t necessarily help you on that.
SPEAKER 02 :
Okay. All right, sir. Well, thank you, Eddie. I appreciate it.
SPEAKER 09 :
Okay, Ben. God bless you. Thank you. It might be better to recommend some podcasts to them, but if they’re an older generation like me, they may not be accustomed to listening to podcasts a lot. But I would think you’d find some good podcasts, I would expect, sooner than you’d find good programs on Christian TV. Again, not that they aren’t there. I just am not familiar with them. Mike from Effingham, New Hampshire. Welcome to The Narrow Path. Thanks for calling.
SPEAKER 06 :
Hi, Steve. Thanks for taking my call. And just quickly, blessings on your ministry and your family. Thank you. And your resource on the web, narrowpath.com, is outstanding. Thank you.
SPEAKER 09 :
You have to have the word thenarrowpath.com or you won’t get to our website.
SPEAKER 06 :
I’ve been through many of your lectures in topical and verse-by-verse. So, yeah, it’s great when I can get reception. I’m out here in New Hampshire in the trees. Great. That sounds beautiful. Yeah. We spoke last week briefly because time was running out. And you recommended, I had been baptized at birth as an infant, and you recommended to get rebaptized. My only concern was, I look at that from a different, or I’ve thought about it a lot, and I’m afraid of the slippery slope of works righteousness. I mean, if I’m thinking subconsciously that that act is going to guarantee me you know, a work that I did that’s going to earn my salvation. So that’s where I’m kind of conflicted.
SPEAKER 09 :
Would that idea not apply equally to trusting that your infant baptism saved you? I mean, obviously, you know, the whole issue of baptism is not a works issue in the Bible. It’s simply a matter of obeying a command of God. And disobeying a command of God is a work, but of the type that it’s not going to go well with anyone in the judgment. You know, when we’re judged, we’ll be judged by our works. Yeah, we’re going to be judged by our works, the Bible says. And so, you know, if God looks at our works and says, oh, I see you did what I said. At least you attempted to. That’s what you were aiming at. I think it’ll go much better for us than if he says, well, I didn’t do what you said because I was afraid I’d trust in my works. Well, you know, well, why would you trust in your works? I mean… Baptism is not a good work. Well, I mean, it’s an act of obedience, but the Christian life is supposed to be full of acts of obedience. So, I mean, I don’t see how being baptized would encourage an attitude of works righteousness. I mean, let’s put it this way. If you’re going to avoid obeying all the commands of God because you’re afraid that will lead you to feel, you know, have an attitude of works righteousness, then you’re going to live an ungodly life. And that won’t go well. No, we are called to obey Christ. Now, if I obey Christ, I guess I could be, if I didn’t know the Bible very well, I could be thinking, well, I’m going to be saved because I did all these good deeds. Well, I don’t think the Bible says I’m going to be saved because I did all these good deeds. But if I am saved, I will do good deeds. That’s very clear in Scripture. By grace you’ve been saved through faith. And that not of yourselves, it’s the gift of God, not of works. lest any man should boast, but we are his workmanship created in Christ Jesus for good works, which he has foreordained that we should walk in. So Paul, that’s of course Ephesians 2, verses 8 through 10, Paul says we’re not saved by works, but he says we are saved for good works that God has foreordained for us to walk in. So I would never say, well, I know God has commanded me to do this thing, but I fear very much that if I obey him, I’ll give myself credit for a work’s righteousness. Well, just don’t. I mean, you have to obey. Obeying Christ is not really optional because coming to Christ means you’re surrendering to him. It means he’s your Lord. He’s your king. His word is your duty and mine. I mean, that’s what it is to be a follower of Christ. We’re saying, okay, from now on, my agenda is gone. My dreams are on the floor. I’m here to follow Christ’s agenda and do what he says. And that’s what it means to have a king. That’s what it means to have a Lord, is you obey. Remember, Jesus said, why do you call me Lord, Lord, and you don’t do what I say? It just was like cognitive dissonance, he thought, to have that kind of speak that way and not act that way. You know, the whole Christian life is an act of obedience, and baptism is an act of obedience. In fact, it’s one of the easiest ones. You know, there’s a lot of hard things Christ causes, including to be faithful unto death, to love our enemies, you know, to fight the spiritual warfare against flesh and the devil in the world. There’s hard things in the body of Christ in the Christian life, but baptism is one of the easy things. So, you know, I would say that any suggestion that obeying God on the matter of baptism is going to lead to bad consequences would as easily apply to obeying God about anything. You know, loving your neighbor. I guess I better not love my neighbor because I might think of myself as righteous because I’m doing it. Well, you know, I have to think that the Protestant message has sometimes downplayed good works to the point where we almost feel embarrassed or afraid to have good works. I literally was raised in a church, or at least in an evangelical environment as a child, where we got the impression that if we try to do good works, it’s offensive to God because we can’t do works that are good enough to save us. So the very attempt to do so is offending the grace of God. What a strange convolution of the Bible that is. No, good works please God if they’re done with an intention to glorify God. And a converted person is a person whose heart has been converted so that they want to please God and realize that, well, for me to please God means I do what he says. So, you know, being patient with somebody or loving somebody who’s, you know, abusing me or something, these are things that if I do it, I do it because… That’s what God wants me to do, and I want to please him. But I don’t, you know, I mean, I live my whole life that way, but it doesn’t in any sense make me have any inkling of an attitude that my works are good enough to save me. It’s just that good works are not optional. They’re what the king commands. So baptism is that way too, and that’s what I would suggest being aware of. If Christ says to do something, well, Do it. Don’t worry that, oh, maybe I’ll congratulate myself for doing it. Well, why would you do that? Why not just congratulate Jesus for giving you good instructions and for you to walk in? That’s what I would suggest. But, yeah, I’ve heard people express, you know, if we have to be baptized, then we’re saved by works. I don’t get that. That’s like saying, if I have to obey Jesus, then I’m getting my religion skewed. No, obeying Jesus is what being a Christian means. He’s your Lord. He’s your king. Obeying him is your job description. What else are you going to do if you’re a Christian? So, I mean, I would try to put that spin on it different so that you wouldn’t fall into that kind of, I guess, confusion about it. Hey, we’ve got a break coming up. I appreciate your call. We’re only halfway through the program, by the way. We have another half hour, so don’t go away. But at this point, we’d like to let everybody know who’s listening that this program doesn’t have any commercials because we don’t have any sponsors. We also don’t have anything for sale. We sell nothing over the air. We sell nothing at our website. And we sell nothing anywhere else either. We are listener supported. And we pay… Well over $100,000 a month to radio stations so that we can be on the air. And the money comes from people, I guess, who wish to see the show stay on the air. If you do, you might want to help us. If you do, you can write to us at The Narrow Path, P.O. Box 1730, Temecula, California, 92593. Or you can do it from our website, thenarrowpath.com. I’ll be right back. Don’t go away.
SPEAKER 01 :
The Narrow Path is on the air due to the generous donations of appreciative listeners like you. We pay the radio stations to purchase the time to allow audiences around the nation and around the world by way of Internet to hear and participate in the program. All contributions are used to purchase such airtime. No one associated with The Narrow Path is paid for their service. Thank you for your continued support.
SPEAKER 09 :
Welcome back to the Narrow Path Radio Broadcast. My name is Steve Gregg and we’re live for another half hour taking your calls. We have one line open. If you’d like to join us right now, the number to call is 844-484-5737. That’s 844-484-5737. 484-5737. I know I say that a lot slower than you might think. It always concerned me when I listen to talk radio, Christian and secular, when the host gives out the notes. You know, 844-484-5737. And, you know, I can’t listen as fast as they talk sometimes. And if I want to call in… I just have to, I’m out of luck because I didn’t catch all those numbers. That’s why I’m kind of slow in delivering. We actually want people to call in. We actually want people to get through. So the number is 844-484-5737. All right, and our next caller today is Carolyn from Seattle, Washington. Carolyn, welcome to The Narrow Path. Thanks for calling.
SPEAKER 11 :
Hi, thank you, Steve. I have a very trivial, silly, inconsequential question for you, but it came up during our Resurrection family get-together Sunday. Talking about the red heifer happened to be unblemished and perfect, and Jesus had to be unblemished and perfect. So do you think Jesus lived a very boring childhood, being the son of a carpenter? that he had to be careful not to get any broken bones or scars?
SPEAKER 09 :
Well, I think that the fact that an animal that was sacrificed, whether it was the red heifer, which, by the way, the red heifer didn’t have to be sacrificed very often. It was burned to ashes, and the ashes were put into a concoction of holy water that was used to sprinkle water. like the tabernacle and the furniture, when it was first ordained. And I don’t think they had to repeat that. Many people who want the temple to be rebuilt and reestablished in the modern times, they’re talking about, oh, we need to have a red heifer for that. But let’s just say animals in general that were offered on the altar or sacrificed, or even the Passover, which was not sacrificed but was eaten by the family, All these animals were told they had to have no bones broken, they had to have no spot or no blemish and so forth. But I think all the perfection of the animal, which was physical, all those, of course, are physical descriptions since an animal can’t have a spiritual description. I think they’re typological. I think they’re emblematic for spiritual things. And so it had to be a perfect animal. Jesus had to be a perfect man. But the perfection of a man is not in his musculature or the fact that he’s never broken a bone or that he’s got no cavities in his teeth or that he hasn’t gotten bald. I mean, that’s not the kind of thing that makes a man perfect. The perfection that God is concerned about is, of course, moral perfection, spiritual perfection, a perfect heart. And therefore, the perfection of any animal that had to be offered, insofar as we see it as a type of Christ, speaks of Christ’s perfection, but not his physical perfection. So when you say when he’s a carpenter, could he never have broken a bone? Because that would disqualify him because an animal with a broken bone couldn’t be sacrificed. I don’t think that would be the case. Though, on the other hand, there’s no reason to believe that he necessarily would have broken any bones. I mean, lots of people don’t. So, you know, I would be perhaps of the opinion he probably never did break a bone. But if he did, I don’t think that would be disqualifying in the sense you’re talking about.
SPEAKER 11 :
Okay. Thank you. I appreciate that.
SPEAKER 09 :
Okay, Carolyn. Thanks for your call. Bye now. All right. Let’s talk to Lorenzo in Huntington Beach, California. Hi, Lorenzo. Welcome to The Narrow Path.
SPEAKER 08 :
Hi, Steve. Shalom. Thank you. I’m calling about Jesus’ baptism. We’re in… the Gospel of Mark leading up and even now our pastor on Resurrection Day focused on his baptism. Now we know that Jesus left his glory. He was separated from the Father physically as he took on human I took on the humanness and he always went to the Father for his direction and as he fulfilled his ministry to preach the gospel. But when it came to John the Baptist, the pastor said that he needed to be filled with the Holy Spirit. And we know that the dove is symbolic as well. What is your take on Jesus being filled with the Spirit in order to fulfill his ministry?
SPEAKER 09 :
Yeah. Well, yeah, the Bible specifically says that the dove that was seen coming down and resting on the head of Christ at his baptism was the Holy Spirit. I mean, the Bible says the Holy Spirit came down in the form of a dove. So, yeah, the Holy Spirit had to come upon Jesus. Well, there’s a number of aspects to that. One is that numerous Old Testament prophecies about the Messiah… including Isaiah 61, verse 1, and many others, refer to him having the Spirit upon him. Isaiah 11 speaks about this, and Isaiah 61, verse 1, talks about how the Spirit of the Lord was upon him. Now, to have the Spirit of the Lord upon somebody in Old Testament times meant usually that they were a prophet, maybe a king. The Holy Spirit would come upon certain individuals, in the case of prophets, the Holy Spirit would then enable them to receive revelations and to prophesy and so forth. And Jesus came as a man, as you say, he emptied himself of his divine privileges, and therefore he lived under the same kind of weaknesses and handicaps as we do. I mean, the very fact that he died means that he had taken on our mortality. God is not mortal. So in order for Jesus to die, he had to shed some of his privileges, some of his attributes as God, like immortality, in order to die for us. We know that God can’t be tempted with evil, the Bible says in James. And yet Jesus was tempted in all points like we are, yet without sin. So, I mean, Jesus obviously was subjected to things, weaknesses, human weaknesses. We know that he himself said he was not omniscient, though God is. Jesus said he didn’t know the day or the hour he’d come back, but he said, my father does, but only my father. I said, I don’t. The angels don’t. I don’t. So Jesus clearly was not omniscient on the earth. And, you know, how then did he do the things he did? Well, he did them, I think, more or less the same way that the apostles later did. The Holy Spirit came upon them, and Jesus said to them, in Acts chapter 1 verse 8 you will receive power when the Holy Spirit comes upon you and you’ll be my witnesses and they did and they worked miracles too and had many of the same things that Jesus did Jesus came as a man with human handicaps and operated as we are expected to do through the power of the Holy Spirit and he even said so in Matthew 12 Jesus said if I through the Holy Spirit am casting out demons then the kingdom of God has come upon you uh he it says in acts chapter one that jesus through the holy spirit gave instructions to his disciples so he was operating through the gifts of the holy spirit just like his apostles later did and and we do uh so yeah he his humanness was genuine humanness we don’t know exactly what his subjective experience as a god become human would be like I mean, how was he feeling about that? What’s that like to be? Well, we probably will never know since he was a unique case. That’s the only time in history that God has taken on human nature and been one of us. And no one else ever has, so no one else can ever know exactly what that’s like for him. But he was, in fact, the creator God, the word of God, who was God and God. But he took on human flesh, and obviously one of the features of taking on human flesh is taking on human weakness. God is omnipresent. He’s everywhere at once. When Jesus became a man, he wasn’t everywhere at once. He was wherever he was, but nowhere else, just like us. He can only be one place at a time. That’s why he had to walk places to get from one place to another, just like we do. He couldn’t just be there. You know, he didn’t have all knowledge, you know, so forth. So the Holy Spirit was absolutely necessary to him, as he is to us, to empower him. And it’s interesting that Jesus, though he was God in the flesh from childhood, from infancy, he didn’t do any miracles as a child. He didn’t do any miracles in the first 30 years of his life. But then when the Holy Spirit came upon him at his baptism, His whole remaining three years was just a bunch of miracles and stuff.
SPEAKER 08 :
Living in the power, you would say.
SPEAKER 09 :
Yeah, living in the power of the Holy Spirit.
SPEAKER 08 :
Right. Steve, the way we draw the line would be that he didn’t need to be born again, which some churches try to preach that, but I don’t believe that.
SPEAKER 09 :
That he didn’t need to be born again or that he did need to be born again?
SPEAKER 08 :
Correct. He did not.
SPEAKER 09 :
Well, I don’t think he did. No, I don’t think he did either. Amen. Yeah. All right, brother.
SPEAKER 08 :
Thank you very much.
SPEAKER 09 :
Thanks for your call. Brian in Colorado Springs, Colorado, welcome to The Narrow Path.
SPEAKER 04 :
Hi, Steve. Thank you. I have a couple questions, maybe the first one I’ll ask, and then I was just thinking, do most folks who hold a dispensational view and see – have trouble seeing a spiritual, quote-unquote, spiritual Israel in the New Testament. Do they think that Jews and Gentiles alike right now in the church age, or however you want to say that, are under the new covenant?
SPEAKER 09 :
Well, the dispensationalists have had more than one view among themselves about the new covenant. There are some dispensationalists who believe there’s a new covenant for Israel that is still future. and a new covenant for the church that is already. Now, in doing this, they’re making up things that aren’t in Scripture. Jeremiah did say there’s going to be a new covenant, but he didn’t say there’s going to be a new covenant and then another new covenant. You know, I mean, as far as we know, the new covenant is one new covenant. And Jesus indicated that he had established this new covenant with his disciples in the upper room. He said, this cup is the new covenant of my blood. Now, here’s the thing. Dispensations say, well, the new covenant… some of them say there’s a new covenant for the church right now and there’s a new covenant for Israel. Well, which was the one that he established in the upper room? All the people in the upper room were Israelites, including Jesus, and he’s sitting there with the leaders of the faithful remnant of Israel and making this new covenant with them. Isn’t that making the covenant with Israel? I mean, when Moses was involved in the giving of the old covenant, There were 70 elders that went up on the mountain and had a covenant meal at the time of establishing the old covenant. And Jesus with his disciples, they were the leaders of the new faithful remnant of Israel. And he made a covenant with them at the covenant meal. You know, I mean, how is this? How would this not be him making the new covenant with the house of Israel? He certainly was offering it to the whole house of Israel. The fact that they wouldn’t all come into the covenant. It was an issue, but that’s on them. That’s not his failure to bring it. But these people who were the remnant of Israel in the upper room with whom Jesus made the covenant, they also were the church. So this is him making the new covenant with the church, who happens to be the same as the faithful remnant of Israel. And for the first probably maybe decade or more, we don’t know, the church was all Israelites. The faithful remnant of Israel was exactly the same as the church. It’s just that Gentiles were allowed to come in later on. But he didn’t have to make a new covenant with the church when the Gentiles came in. He already made the new covenant with their Jewish founders. So there are other dispensationalists who believe that the new covenant has not come yet. They don’t believe there’s two new covenants, one for the church and one for the Israelites. there are dispensations who believe the new covenant has not occurred yet, and it’s only going to be with the house of Israel and the house of Judah, as Jeremiah worded it. But then they have a bit of a problem because that makes Jesus disingenuous. He’s telling his disciples he’s making the new covenant with them. And Paul… who was, you know, the apostle to the Gentiles, certainly a church leader, he said that he, in 1 Corinthians 3, he said, I’m a minister of the New Covenant. So, you know, the truth is, I don’t think any of the dispensational treatments of the New Covenant are scriptural. And even they think that, I mean, you find it dispensationalist. One is going to think a certain way about the New Covenant. Others are going to think a different way because, like I said, some think it hasn’t happened yet. Others think it just happened for the church because there’s another new covenant. I mean, obviously, they don’t even agree with each other. But that’s because neither of the views that they bring up, neither of those views actually agree with Scripture. So dispensations have to work that out among themselves, but they’ve got a problem with that.
SPEAKER 04 :
Okay, yeah, it’s hard to…
SPEAKER 09 :
to nail that down. Okay, Brian, I appreciate your insight. Thank you. Okay, Brian, thanks for your call. Rick from Phoenix, Arizona. Welcome to The Narrow Path.
SPEAKER 05 :
Hi, Steve. Love your show. I enjoy listening to it all the time. The question for me today is, did Jesus ever heal someone of drug or alcohol addiction, wine addiction as it applied back then? I don’t see anywhere in there. where he takes a person who’s a knocked-out wino and picks him up and says, be healed, or there’s no interaction between him and people that are unconscious because they’re drunk or something like that. And what does that tell us about how we should deal with people today? Because a person whose will is taken from them they’re not able to exercise their will to receive Christ, although they might call on him. But your thoughts about that, and I’ll get off the phone. Thank you.
SPEAKER 09 :
All right. Thank you for your call. Well, we don’t know if Jesus ever encountered a man passed out drunk. I mean, we only have a few days of his life actually recorded for us. And we’re told by John, at the end of the Gospel of John, that these are only a few things recorded by what Jesus did. John said if everything Jesus had did was recorded, the world itself couldn’t contain the books. So we know that Jesus did a whole lot more than the few things that are recorded. Though much of what Jesus did was carried on also by the apostles later on. And Paul, writing to the Corinthians, who were his converts, he had planted that church and converted these people. He said in 1 Corinthians 6, verse 9 do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God do not be deceived neither fornicators nor adulterers nor adulterers nor homosexuals nor sodomites nor thieves nor covetous nor drunkards which would be what an alcoholic is nor revilers nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God but then he said this in verse 11 such were some of you but you were washed you were sanctified you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the spirit of our God so He said some of the Corinthian Christians, before they were Christians, were alcoholics. They were drunkards. And he says some of you were that, but now you’ve been saved. You’ve been washed, sanctified. Notice he doesn’t say you’ve been healed. Because the Bible does not treat drunkenness as if it’s a disease that needs to be healed. It’s a behavior. Now, we might say, well, don’t you realize that people who are addicts, it may be showing up in their behavior, but But they have no control over it. Well, then it’s a bondage. It’s a spiritual bondage. They need to be delivered from it. It’s a very different kind of thing than a sickness. Now, I’m not saying that people who have drunk too much alcohol don’t have physical symptoms and even go through physical withdrawals. I mean, I know about delirium tremens and so forth. That’s because they’ve compromised certain organs of their bodies and their body chemistry and so forth for a long time with this toxic substance. And Just like you know some people if they give up sugar they they go through withdrawal You know if they just ate too much sugar in their lifetime their body is adjusted to it The same thing may be true if you give up meat or something in some cases or coffee I know if I give up coffee get headaches So if you put you know too much of something in your body and it’s adjusted to it and you stop putting that in obviously your body has to go through an adjustment and But that doesn’t mean that the condition from which you’re recovering was a sickness. It was a behavior that compromised your body in many respects. But it was a behavior. And the Bible never speaks about drunkenness as a sickness to be healed. And therefore, no, I don’t believe Jesus ever healed an alcoholic. But he probably converted a lot of them. And if he did, then they’d be like these people that Paul’s talking to, that Paul later converted. A lot of them were drunkards, but they’re not anymore because they’re living in the victory and deliverance from their sins that the gospel provides. So there’s a difference between a sin and a sickness. A sickness is something that you catch or that happens to you. A sin is something you do, okay? Now, I realize some people have sinned in certain ways so much that they feel like they can’t stop it, and therefore they almost feel like it’s a sickness now. Well, it’s not like other sicknesses which happen to you apart from your own actions. It is simply, it can be a bondage. Sin is bondage. And the Bible indicates that before we come to Christ, we are slaves of sin. Not everyone is a slave to the same sins. Some people are slaves to the sin of drunkenness. Some are slaves to the sin of greed or some other kind of thing. But I know there are people in bondage to alcohol and drugs. And I know that their bodies… are often compromised in certain ways from their adjustment to these foreign substances, that it’s not easy for the body to do without them immediately. And there’s withdrawal and things like that. But the fact that there’s physiological dependency on a behavior… doesn’t mean that that behavior is a sickness. It means that many sins cause physical harm. If you’re a womanizer, if you’re a fornicator, you may get AIDS. You might get gonorrhea. I mean, okay, your sin has caused a sickness or has threatened your health, but still fornication is not a sickness. It’s a behavior. It’s a sin. And once you stop doing it, then you may have to deal with things that you did to your body that may damage you, may even kill you. You may still die after you’ve repented. But God’s not going to judge you for your sicknesses. He’ll judge you for your sins, of course, because he’s never forbidden us to get sick. You can’t forbid someone to do something that it’s not really their doing anyway. But he has forbidden us to sin. And so we’re responsible for that. So my answer is I don’t believe Jesus healed alcoholics. I believe that he probably converted some, probably delivered some from their sin of alcoholism. Okay, let’s go back to the phones now and talk to Patty from Bayville, New York. Hi, Patty. Welcome to The Narrow Path.
SPEAKER 10 :
Hi. Hi. My question is praying to the saints in Deuteronomy 13. In Deuteronomy 13, God says if somebody has you pray to something else other than me, he might let it come to pass to test you. So I tell my friends, you really shouldn’t pray to saints. There’s only one mediator between God and man. Is that what Deuteronomy 13 means? Yes.
SPEAKER 09 :
Well, I don’t think it’s specifically that. It may apply as an extension of the concept. Deuteronomy 13, the first three or four verses, says if there arises a prophet or a dreamer of dreams and he gives you a sign or a wonder, and the sign or the wonder that he gives actually comes to pass, meaning maybe he predicts something will happen and it does, it really does, you might think, oh, this guy’s a real prophet. But then the law says, well, don’t mistake him for a real prophet if he also says, let’s go worship other gods that you have not worshipped. So he’s basically saying, look out for idolatry and don’t be deceived or drawn or seduced into idolatry by some false prophet who gives you signs and wonders that actually are impressive and actually come to pass. Now, so it’s a kind of a different… focus than what you’re talking about. Now, I don’t believe in praying to saints simply because I don’t see any reason to pray to anyone except God. I don’t even pray to Jesus because he said to pray to your father.
SPEAKER 10 :
Father, that’s what I tell them. Jesus didn’t say if you’re caught in a storm, pray to Jonah. Pray to David if you’ve got a big battle. He said pray to the Father.
SPEAKER 09 :
Right, exactly.
SPEAKER 10 :
Well, that’s it. I was brought up Catholic, but I just felt like when I got saved, I felt like the Holy Spirit opened my eyes and told me not to do that anymore.
SPEAKER 09 :
Well, good. That’s great, because he led you correctly. Because, first of all, I don’t have any reason to believe that any of the saints even know I exist. If we’re talking about the saints who’ve died and gone to heaven, why should they be bothered with knowing I exist? And why should my troubles continue to become their troubles? I believe when a Christian dies and goes to be with the Lord, their troubles are over. Why should they be bothered with mine, you know, especially since I don’t need them to be. I’ve got God, just like they did. When they were on earth, they had God. I’m on earth, I have God. And I’ve been told by Jesus to pray to God. So I do. And, you know, even if I thought the saints could hear me, and even if I thought they could do something for me, why would I go to them instead of God? That doesn’t make any sense. I think people who advocate prayer to saints suggest, well, the saints have this, you know, they’re better than we are. and therefore they have some pull. And especially if we’re talking about Mary, she’s got a lot of pull. And, you know, she has pull with Jesus. And if I need something from God, I can talk to one of his best friends in heaven, or even his mom, and then she can talk to Jesus, or they can, and then Jesus can talk to God, and maybe I’ll get something. Why go through all those middlemen? Jesus said, go to God. He actually said this in John 16. He said, I don’t say that I will ask the Father for you. He loves you. You talk to him yourself. Pray to the Father. And Jesus never told us to pray to anyone else. And, I mean, even if it was permissible to pray to other people, or even if there was some possible benefit that could be had from it, would that be superior to talking to God? I just, I do not understand the mentality. Except I suspect, I don’t know, but I suspect that that mentality betrays a thought that God really doesn’t want to be bothered with me. And that maybe if his son prevails… upon him maybe God will overcome his reluctance to help me and say okay for you Jesus I’ll do it but then maybe Jesus is reluctant too and so maybe his mom has to kind of get in and persuade him or one of his best friends up there like the saints you know that whole attitude is tragic it’s so sub-Christian because what Christianity does is restores our relationship to God like the prodigal son came home to his father and had a direct relationship with him Only those who seem to underrate that would even be the slightest bit interested in talking to Jesus’ mother, you know, or a saint. Why? When you go to God yourself. I feel so sorry for people like that because I’ve enjoyed a relationship with God. for over 50, probably 60 years now. And I just think, boy, I wish that for everyone. And everyone can have that. If they come to Christ, become his followers, then they’ll be born again and God will be their father. They can talk to him like a child to a father. I’m out of time. You’ve been listening to The Narrow Path. We are a listener-supported ministry. Our address is The Narrow Path, PO Box 1730, Temecula, California. 92593, our website, thenarrowpath.com.
