In this episode, Steve Gregg takes calls from listeners with diverse inquiries. From discussing the concepts of repentance for Giants in Genesis 6 to the theological implications of infused versus imputed righteousness, Steve provides clear answers and fosters an engaging, informative dialogue. With his longstanding expertise, Steve Gregg brings a fresh perspective to age-old theological debates and contemporary questions of faith.
SPEAKER 10 :
Good afternoon and welcome to the Narrow Path Radio Broadcast. My name is Steve Gregg and we’re live for an hour each weekday afternoon, including today. And the reason we’re live is so we can have real-time conversations with you and me and the rest of our audience. If you have questions about the Bible… or the Christian Faith, that’s pretty much the format of this program, has been for 28 years. We’ve been on the radio daily for 28 years, an hour a day, and we’re still doing it. And what we’ve done virtually every time we’ve been on the air is just open the lines and have people call in with questions about the Bible and the Christian Faith. Right now, a couple of our lines are actually open. So if you’d like to call right now, this is a good time to get through. The number is 844- 484-5737. That’s 844-484-5737. Now today, or I should say tonight, I’ll be speaking in Maple Park Church, which is a Lutheran church, in Linwood, Washington. And I’m going to be talking about a subject they asked me to speak on, making disciples of Jesus. So that’s my topic tonight at the Maple Park Church in Linwood, Washington. That’s going to be at 7 p.m. to 8.30. Tomorrow I’ll be in Kenmore, and that’ll be just a Q&A. It’s held in a home. You’re welcome to join us there if you wish. We’ll be also, before the end of the week, I’ll be in North Bend, Washington, Des Moines, Washington, Mercer Island, Washington. Those are the various towns I’ll be in for the remainder of the week. If you live near any of those places or want to join us for any of those meetings, go to our website, thenarrowpath.com and look under announcements and that’s where you’ll find the information about our meetings in Washington State for the rest of this week. All right, now we’re going to go to the phones and talk to, let’s see, our first caller today is John from Austin, Texas. John, welcome to The Narrow Path. Thanks for calling.
SPEAKER 04 :
Hello, Steve. Thanks for taking my call. I have two questions today. The The second one’s got a lot to unpack, and I thought I’d write it out. I wrote it on my computer, and it’s kind of a bit airy, so I’ll just do the first one and see what sort of time we’ve got, and ask the second. But the first question is this. I don’t know if you’re aware, but the scientists have done this thing where they split a person’s brain in half, and they separate the left hemisphere from the right hemisphere. It’s for people with severe epilepsy. They’ve done this. And then they’ve done tests on them, and these people seem to have two consciousnesses trapped in one body. And they’re able to communicate to the different consciousnesses. Now, the one that’s controlling the body seems to be in charge and has no sense or awareness of other ones trapped inside of them until they manage to communicate to it doing these experiments. And they do it by one example of experiment is because one hemisphere is attached to one eye and another is attached to the other. They’ll get them to look at a screen. and they’ll divide it down their eyesight, and they’ll show them two separate images, and they’ll ask the person, what image did you see? And they’ll just say the image they saw, which is on the right hemisphere. But then when they communicate and ask them to write it with their hand, their hand will draw, which is to the other hemisphere, their hand will draw what their other eye saw. And they’re shocked. They don’t know why they do that. Okay.
SPEAKER 10 :
So what is your question?
SPEAKER 04 :
So my question is this. Sorry, I’ve given that background. But my question is this. So In the Bible, there’s the dichotomous view and the trichotomous view. And obviously, some theologians believe that the soul and the spirit interchange, they’re just one thing, and they’re just mentioned interchangeably. And others believe there’s a distinction. And I was wondering, do you think in the way that the soul and the spirit are, maybe they are one thing, but one is more attached to the left hemisphere, and one is attached more to the right hemisphere. And they are one because they’re unified. But when you divide the brain, you’re actually seeing maybe, because they’re saying there’s two centers of almost consciousness in there. Do you think maybe we’re that would explain that?
SPEAKER 10 :
Well, I’m not sure that it would because I, first of all, don’t understand the physiology that was described. I mean, not that you didn’t make it clear enough. It’s just that that’s above my pay grade. I don’t understand those kinds of things. I’ve never studied them. So I really couldn’t answer. For those who are listening and don’t know what you mean by trichotomous and dichotomous, obviously the first one speaks of three and the second one of two, and it usually is referring to How many portions of the human being are there? Everyone agrees, of course, we have a body. And everyone agrees that we have a mind. But is the mind one unit, which the Bible sometimes refers to as the soul and sometimes as the spirit? Or is the mind made up or the inner man, let’s put it this way, is the inner man, the non-physical aspects of humans, is that divided into two actual different ones? Or are they one? Is there only one thing that is the inner man and one thing that’s the outer man? So we’d be dichotomous. We’d have an outer and an inner man. A trichotomous view is that we have the outer man, but the inner man has two parts, the soul and the spirit, and they’re separate from each other. The other view, the dichotomous say that soul and spirit are terms used interchangeably in the Bible. This is a, frankly, this continues to be a debate among theologians. It’s not as if having a certain amount of expertise in the Bible will answer this question for you. It’s more or less the way people interpret certain aspects of the Bible differently. Now, I have to say that what you described as the functions of the hemispheres of the brain, I have no idea whether one of them would interact with spirit and one with soul. That’s, I mean, you’re just asking if that sounds like a reasonable suggestion. If I knew, I mean, if I understood better really what’s going on there in the experiment, I might not even then know the answer to your question. But I don’t fully understand it, which puts me really out of, out of the loop as far as being able to answer. My thoughts about soul and spirit, whether they are distinct from each other or two different terms for the same thing, are generally speaking, I guess my general attitude is somewhat apathetic. Not that I wouldn’t be glad to know which one is true. But I don’t know that we have enough information to know which is true. And I tend to be a trichotomist. I mean, there’s a few verses that kind of lead me that way, but there’s other things that do suggest that the soul and spirit are used interchangeably. So I’m not really sure we have a united voice about that subject. But the other thing is I’m not sure what I would do differently. If I was a trichotomist or a dichotomist, I can’t see how that would change up. my spiritual life, my moral behavior, the choices I make, and things like that. It’s an interesting thing, and of course scientists are interested in looking into the nature of man, so are theologians, but that particular discussion To my mind, I mean, I’ve certainly looked into that over the years. And my conclusion is we really have an awful hard time making a decision between those two. And it would involve so much effort that I have to ask, is it worth the effort? I mean, what’s the payoff? You know, if I decide trichotomy is true or dichotomy is true, what’s the payoff for knowing that? And I don’t really know. I don’t think it would be that important for me to know. Maybe someone knows, you know, some important sense that I have not grasped. But in my Christian life, over the past 60 some odd years of being a Christian, nothing I’ve ever done or had to do has required some kind of a decision about that.
SPEAKER 04 :
Well, thank you. I was more asking for the fact that it just maybe has explanatory power for the phenomenal being. I understand. Maybe some critics might think that, you know, if you could divide a consciousness by dividing the brain, it might show that consciousness is just completely epiphenomenon of the brain. But… Have we got time for a second question, or do you want me to call back another time?
SPEAKER 10 :
Well, is it likely to be shorter than that one?
SPEAKER 04 :
No. Oh, it’s not?
SPEAKER 10 :
Okay. Maybe you could call tomorrow with that one then. My lines are full.
SPEAKER 04 :
Yeah, no worries. Okay. Thank you, Steve.
SPEAKER 10 :
Okay, John. Thanks for your call. Good talking to you.
SPEAKER 04 :
Sorry, I can’t help you.
SPEAKER 10 :
God bless. All right. Eleanor from Nashville, Tennessee is next. Hi, Eleanor. Welcome.
SPEAKER 07 :
Okay. Thank you. Excuse my voice. Yeah, it’s been a while. I called you several years ago when I was living in Temecula, and I asked you a question. So, and good to talk with you again.
SPEAKER 10 :
You know, your voice is kind of echoing my ear. Are you using a speakerphone?
SPEAKER 05 :
Yes.
SPEAKER 10 :
Maybe take it off speakerphone. It might be better.
SPEAKER 05 :
Okay.
SPEAKER 10 :
Oh, that’s much better. Go ahead. What is your question, Eleanor? Yes, what’s your question?
SPEAKER 07 :
Okay. I’d just like to say real quick what I think about John’s question, that I’ve always thought that when Adam fell and they disobeyed God, that the Spirit kind of died. But then when we believe on Jesus Christ, the Spirit is… comes alive.
SPEAKER 10 :
I have to say, that’s pretty much the teaching I was raised under also. And it could be true. It’s not possible to make that absolutely certain from any particular proof of text, but that’s not an unfamiliar way to look at it, and it could be correct.
SPEAKER 07 :
Yeah, to me it makes sense. Anyway, my question is, I’m involved Genesis 6 too. And I heard you this morning and you don’t really go along with that with the giant. But I’ve always been wondering about what people say, especially Baptists, that because people did not repent at the preaching of Noah that the flood came. But my question is then, and I believe that Giants are real. They’re found all over the world. What is your question? The government took away, they dug up and took away.
SPEAKER 10 :
Eleanor, what is your question for me, please?
SPEAKER 07 :
Oh, okay. Sorry. My question is then, well, how could they repent if they were giants since they were not totally humans?
SPEAKER 10 :
Well, that’s just it. You know, the Bible would not expect anyone to repent of being a giant or of any other immutable trait that they’re born with. Like, you know, you’re not sinful because your skin is a certain color or you’re a certain height or your eyes are a certain color or your hair color. I mean, those things are not moral issues. Now, there were Nephilim in the world, the Bible says in Genesis 6. and that probably should be translated giants. Certainly we know from the only other time that Nephilim are mentioned in the Bible, which is in the 14th chapter or 13th chapter of Numbers, that in the land of Canaan, the spies saw Nephilim there, and they said, we were like grasshoppers next to them, which suggests the Nephilim were very large compared to the Israelites. Now, That’s why I think we favor, most translations favor, the translation of giants for Nephilim. Although, whether they’re giant humans or giant something else, you know, would be another issue. Some people might think they’re giant dinosaurs or something. I don’t know. But the word Nephilim is simply not… easy to translate, but it’s not necessary to translate. Giants in the world are not a bad thing in themselves, unless they’re bad giants. And Genesis doesn’t really tell us that giants are worse than other people, or that giants have to repent of being giants. So it’s not really a problem. The Bible says… When God saw that wickedness was great on the earth and the thoughts and intents of men’s hearts were only evil continually. He didn’t say Nephilim’s hearts, men’s hearts. Now, if Nephilim were men, well, then that would include them. And God said, my spirit will not always strive with man. Again, he’s not talking about fallen angels here. He’s talking or half-breed human demons. He’s talking about men. The problem is men. The reason the flood came is because men were corrupted. And God said, I’m not going to strive with men forever. I’m going to give them 120 years before I wipe them out. And so there’s no suggestion in the Bible. that the Nephilim had to repent of being Nephilim, but if they were giants who were bad like the rest of mankind, then like the rest of mankind they should repent of their being bad. It’s a very different thing to say that the Nephilim are required to repent because they are somehow born from some… The Bible does not actually say that the Nephilim were born from the parents who were sons of God and daughters of men. It just says that the Nephilim were in the earth at that time when these marriages took place. In fact, it says they were in the earth in those days and also after these marriages took place, they were there. So he’s basically saying at the time these marriages took place, there were Nephilim in the earth, both before and after the marriages. So it does not suggest that the marriages produced the Nephilim. This is something that preachers like to put all kinds of imagination into. And most people follow, I should say most people who take this view, they follow the Book of Enoch. I think pretty much the first place the idea came up that these were angels, you know, mating with women. I don’t necessarily think that is what’s being described there. But the Book of Enoch said it. It’s not an inspired book. It’s just a book that someone wrote and claimed to be Enoch who wasn’t Enoch. So there’s no reason in the world to think that they’re. But that’s somehow the authorized understanding, just because the Book of Enoch had it. But it was very influential. And it influenced Jewish thought and early Christian thought, too. But, I mean, early Christian thought wasn’t always, you know, infallible. The Bible makes it very clear. Humans are not infallible, including the earliest humans or the earliest Christians. So, anyway, I would say there’s… Yeah, there’s no need to really think that God’s requiring giants to repent of being giants. All right, let’s talk to Kevin in River Rouge, Michigan. You know, I never heard of River Rouge, Michigan, Kevin, until you started calling, and now I notice you every time.
SPEAKER 01 :
Is there another person in River Rouge? Yeah, I took the screen. Go ahead.
SPEAKER 10 :
What’s the question?
SPEAKER 01 :
Yeah, I just first want to really compliment the Lord for having you on the air and teaching mostly because I was raised Catholic also, but the fact that the other day, yesterday, as a matter of fact, that guy that you talked to, he had mentioned the guy last Friday, I believe, talking about transubstantiation, different things in the Catholic faith, and being raised Catholic and everything, and now I’m a Christian. I thank you for saying that, really, when you come to the end of self yesterday, when you said that, I thought, well, that’s one question, but I have two questions. I’m not going to give them both because I don’t want to take up your time. I want you to first explain to the people in the hearing and for me the difference between Catholic teaching of infused righteousness and Protestant teaching, which began with the Reformation, of imputage. One is getting more of the Holy Spirit. The other is the Holy Spirit getting more of us. I’ll hang up and let you talk.
SPEAKER 10 :
All right. Thank you, Kevin, for your call. What is the difference between, let us say, imputed righteousness and imparted or infused righteousness? So imputed, generally speaking, is understood to mean sort of a legal decree. A person who is imputed righteous, that means it’s credited to them. that they are righteous. Someone gives them credit for it. They’re accounted to be righteous. Now, Protestant teaching, since the Reformation, has often suggested that being imputed righteous is totally unrelated to any infused personal righteousness of character or or any imparted righteousness where we actually become more righteous individuals in our behavior and in our interior life and so forth, like Christ. Donna from Everett, Washington. Welcome to The Narrow Path. Thanks for calling.
SPEAKER 06 :
Thank you for taking my call. What I’m calling about is the menorah. I was given, it’s real pretty, but I’m not sure it has a place in my Christmas decoration, so… Can you tell me a little about it and whether it’s okay?
SPEAKER 10 :
Well, a menorah obviously is the seven-branched candlestick that was modeled after the one in the tabernacle that Moses built. Right. And, of course, Jews have menorahs that they have and they display sometimes year-round, sometimes at Hanukkah or something like that. And it has become, therefore, one of the symbols of the Jewish faith. Now, Christians, of course, I would say have gone beyond the Jewish faith because we recognize Christ as the Messiah and the Jews don’t. However, having gone beyond it. We haven’t gotten to a place where we consider that things like the tabernacle furniture are bad things or evil things. It’s not like having a Buddha on your mantle or something like that, which represents a different religious system, a different concept of who God is. Now, I don’t think that the menorah necessarily has any relevance to the Christian. But I wouldn’t find the same thing objectionable about it as I would having some kind of a Hindu statue of the elephant god or something like that. So I don’t think you’re doing any harm having a menorah there.
SPEAKER 06 :
Okay. Well, thank you very much.
SPEAKER 10 :
Okay, Donna. God bless you. God bless you, too.
SPEAKER 06 :
Merry Christmas.
SPEAKER 10 :
You, too. Bye now. Bye. All right. Let’s talk next to… Craig from Spring, Texas. Craig, welcome to The Narrow Path. Thanks for calling.
SPEAKER 12 :
Hi, Steve. Good to talk to you again. Yeah. Hey, man, I’m still working through, you know, the stuff we talked about last time, you know, wrestling scriptures about our transformation, our walk in the spirit and, you know, exactly what that looks like practically. And, you know, Part of the thing that spurred us all on, I think I mentioned before, was, you know, I’m fellowshipping with some great new brothers in a home church here where I live. And it’s great, you know, that the Spirit’s there and there’s lots of love and all that. But they all seem to have this one kind of view of this subject that’s totally different than anything I’ve ever heard. And one of the kind of the linchpins is 1 John 3, 9, where it says, whoever is born of God does not commit sin. And I’ve always understood that. to mean practicing sin you know um but but they have they have this interpretation and it’s not like a absolute uh sanctification position where they believe they literally don’t but they believe they their true identity doesn’t sense that when it says whoever is born of god does not commit sin it’s talking about their their spirit man the seed of christ in them Well, it seems like that kind of comes from maybe a Watchman Nee kind of thing.
SPEAKER 10 :
I was just going to ask you.
SPEAKER 12 :
I’ve never heard that before.
SPEAKER 10 :
Yeah, I was just going to ask you if these people are in the local church and follow Witness Lee.
SPEAKER 12 :
Yeah, they’re not. No, not at all. They’re not. It’s just a homegrown, organic fellowship.
SPEAKER 10 :
Because it sounds like what you just described sounded a little like Watchman Nee to me. Let me just say that 1 John 3, when it’s talking about a Christian doesn’t sin… It is not talking about the spirit man doesn’t sin, although the outward man does. It is true, perhaps. that many times an outward man, our outer behavior will be sinful when our true in-depth desire is to be holy. I mean, the flesh lusts against the spirit, and the spirit against the flesh, and these two are contrary to each other, so we don’t always do what we want to do. As Christians, we do have an internal commitment to be holy and righteous and to not sin, but we also have a flesh and certain weaknesses and so forth, and so sometimes we do sin. And we know that we are really born of God because even when we do sin, we wish we didn’t and we hate it. We never really get the same enjoyment out of sin that an unbeliever would because our conscience is better.
SPEAKER 12 :
They correlate this passage with Romans 7, you know, Paul, the things I want to do and I don’t do. They say it’s just another… way of stating the same thing. But it isn’t.
SPEAKER 10 :
Right. I understand what they may think about Romans 7, and I’m not sure I disagree. They believe it’s referring to a real Christian, right? Or are they believing he’s talking about his pre-Christian life?
SPEAKER 12 :
No, no, like all of us.
SPEAKER 10 :
Okay, yeah. So Romans 7 and Galatians 5, 17 both talk about this struggle that Christians have. But John isn’t talking about that. He’s talking about the lifestyle of a Christian. We can see it all the way through this epistle. For example, he says in verse 3 of chapter 2, 1 John 3, 2, he says, Now by this we know that we know him if we keep his commandments. Now that’s an outward thing, keeping his commandments. He who says, I know him and does not keep his commandments is a liar and the truth is not in him. But whoever keeps his word, truly the love of God is perfected in him. And by this we know that we are in him. So it makes it very clear that it’s keeping God’s commandments. Now, there’s nothing in the book of 1 John that would suggest that keeping his commandments is merely an internal thing and not something outwardly. And you mentioned 1 John 3. He says in verse 7, Little children, let no one deceive you. He who practices righteousness is righteous. That’s an outward practice. Just as he is righteous. Now, what he’s saying is, yeah, Christians are, in fact, internally righteous. Christians are, in fact, even imputed righteousness by the blood of Christ and by our faith. But how do we know if we are imputed righteousness, internally righteous? Because we practice righteousness. Practice is outward behavior. So practicing righteousness is the proof that we really are righteous inwardly. And he says, “…he who sins is of the devil, for the devil sinned from the beginning.” It would be a very strange thing if John was saying, I’m only talking about sinning inwardly because outward sin isn’t of the devil. He’s not giving us permission to sin outwardly because we happen to be sinless inwardly. No, he’s talking about behavior. He says, For this purpose the Son of God was manifested that he might destroy the works of the devil. Whoever has been born of God does not sin, for his seed remains in him, and he cannot sin because he has been born of God. I think all the way through 1 John, he’s talking about the need for holy living. And holy living is seen as a proof that you really have the inward righteousness. So I agree that we have to be righteous inwardly, not only outwardly. But the proof that we are righteous inwardly is the practice of righteousness outwardly. But that practice is not perfect. There is actually… There are flaws and there are errors that we commit, and that doesn’t disprove that we weren’t righteous. It means that we were weak. Listen, I need to cut off here for a few stations are leaving us at this point. We’re going to go on for another half hour. The Narrow Path is listener supported. If you’d like to help us out, you can go to our website, thenarrowpath.com, and see how to do that and see all the free resources. If you’re staying with us for the next half hour, please stay tuned for 30 seconds, and we’ll be right back.
SPEAKER 02 :
The book of Hebrews tells us do not forget to do good and to share with others. So let’s all do good and share The Narrow Path with Steve Gregg with family and friends. When the show is over today, tell one and all to go to thenarrowpath.com where they can study, learn, and enjoy with free topical audio teachings, blog articles, verse-by-verse teachings, and archives of all The Narrow Path radio shows. And be sure to tell them to tune into the show right here on the radio. Share listeners supported The Narrow Path with Steve Gregg. Share and do good.
SPEAKER 08 :
This is the best of the Narrow Path Radio broadcast. The following is pre-recorded.
SPEAKER 09 :
Welcome to the Narrow Path Radio Program, hosted by Steve Gray. Steve is not in the studio today, so calls from listeners will not be able to be taken. In the place of the usual format, we’ve put together some of the best calls from past programs. They cover a variety of topics important to anyone interested in the Bible and Christianity. In addition to the radio program, The Narrow Path has a website. You can go to www.thenarrowpath.com, where you can find hundreds of resources that can all be downloaded for free. And now, please enjoy this special collection of calls to Steve Gray and The Narrow Path.
SPEAKER 10 :
Steve from Bellevue, Washington. Steve, welcome to The Narrow Path. Thanks for calling.
SPEAKER 13 :
Thank you for taking my call. Okay, I got some questions, so let me just ramble a little bit, and you can pick them out. So I understand there’s one rapture at the second coming, and the dead rise first, and then the others rise, and they’re all then judged, righteous and otherwise, right? Yes. And the righteous go to heaven, and the others go to hell, and I read your book on the three deals of hell. I like that. That’s good. So I’m okay to that point. So my question is… After the judgment, the righteous, they go to heaven. Do they go up in heaven or do they come down to the new heaven and earth? I don’t understand that term.
SPEAKER 10 :
Well, I don’t think we go to heaven after the judgment. I think that we’re caught up to meet the Lord in the air when he comes. And we return the rest of the way down with him. The church is like a welcoming committee coming to join him on his final descent. So he comes down, we meet him in the clouds, and he continues to come down with us too. And then, I believe, at that point comes the judgment. And after the judgment, those who are not thrown into the lake of fire are apparently all issued into eternal life in the new heaven and the new earth. So I believe that heaven is not really where we go when we die. Well, I take this back. I do believe it’s probable that when we die, we do go to heaven, but not permanently. We go to heaven to be with the Lord until he comes back. But at the time that he comes, I believe the dead are raised and the living are caught up to meet him in the air and do not go to heaven at that point, but come back down while he judges the earth. And then after the judgment, we who are saved will be with him in the new Jerusalem.
SPEAKER 13 :
Okay, so when you die, you say you go to heaven. So you’re going to be judged at that point then. Is that right?
SPEAKER 10 :
No, we’ve already been judged in that respect. I mean, if Christ is in us, if we belong to him, there’s nowhere that we can go except to heaven. We have eternal life. Now, the unbeliever doesn’t have eternal life, so I can’t say what happens to them when they die. Maybe they go black until they’re in the dark and asleep or something. I don’t know what happens to them. But the righteous have eternal life now, and God knows his own. He knows we belong to him, and we’re in Christ. And so we’re in Christ who is now seated in heavenly places, and when we die, our spirits, I believe, continue to be in him. and with him in heavenly places. Paul said he’s going to be, when he dies, absent from the body, but he considered that he’ll be present with the Lord. Now, the Lord is in heaven, so Paul felt like his spirit will be absent from his body, but it will be where Jesus is. That’s in heaven. But that’s before the resurrection. That’s when we die. The resurrection is on the last day of the whole world, and that’s when everyone rises again. And we who are spirits with Christ in heaven will come back with him, and he’ll raise our bodies, and we’ll live in those. Only they will be perfect bodies.
SPEAKER 13 :
Okay, so I was listening to some of your tapes, and you were talking about people in Hades. It’s not purgatory, but some sort of interim. That sort of confused me.
SPEAKER 10 :
Well, I was probably just expressing what the standard view is of most Christians. It’s not clearly taught in Scripture. But it is thought by most Christians that Hades is a generic place of the dead, which has two compartments, one for the lost and one for the saved. And before Jesus came, those who died lost went to the part of Hades that was for the lost. And those who died in faith went to the place in Hades which was for the saved, which was called Abraham’s bosom or paradise. Now, you might remember Jesus said to the thief on the cross, today you’ll be with me in paradise. And many, probably most Christians believe that when Jesus died, he and that thief went to this place, paradise, which is one of the compartments of Hades. Not an uncomfortable one, but still a place of waiting. Now, when Jesus rose from the dead, the Bible says he led with him a host of captives. And some believe this refers to those who had been in the… paradise in the better part of hades yeah in paradise and that they went with him to heaven and that since that time since christ has according to hebrews 10 made open a new and living way into heaven itself which was not available to man before now that when we die we just go to heaven we don’t go to hades but the loss the loss would still go to hades because they’re they’re not going to heaven right okay
SPEAKER 13 :
And I know you said this, but so at the second coming, there’s a judgment of whom?
SPEAKER 10 :
Of everybody. But in our case, I mean, we’re going to stand judgment, but we read of it in some of the parables of Jesus when the master leased out or left his property to his servants and told them to occupy until he comes. When he came back, he had them give account of what they had done with his stuff. And those who had increased his goods by proper usage were rewarded in some measure, depending on how much they had increased it. So there were degrees of privilege and of reward given out to people depending on the degree of faithfulness they had had. Even those who received a lesser reward were still saved, and there probably was never any question about that. The question is, what would be their reward? So I think that When we die, God already knows if we’re his or not. It’s not like there has to be a judgment to decide that. The judgment of works has to do with rewards. Jesus said he’s going to come in the glory of his Father and his holy angels in Matthew 16 and 27. And he said he’ll reward everyone according to their works. And that’s what he’s going to do with the judgment.
SPEAKER 13 :
Okay, so that’s what’s going to take some time, because I’ve heard you say other people claim it’s going to take days and days to evaluate that. It seems to me you can just do it instantaneously, but that’s my small thing.
SPEAKER 10 :
I’m with you. I think he can probably do it fairly instantaneously. Hey, my lines are full, so I need to take some more calls, but I hope that’s helpful.
SPEAKER 13 :
It is helpful. Can I just, just one little side? So, you know, many people with all this pre-trib and stuff, I mean, when those people, when they believe in that previous rapture, where do those people go? Where do they think they go?
SPEAKER 10 :
Well, they believe that when the rapture occurs, they’ll go right to heaven and they’ll stay there. Well, some of them say that we’ll stay in the clouds and have the marriage supper of the Lamb there. But I think the average pre-tribulationist believes that when Jesus comes back at the beginning of the tribulation, that he’ll take the church up back into heaven. And that’s where they believe the wedding feast of the Lamb will take place there. And that will be seven years. And at the end of seven years, he’ll come back with them to judge the world. So they place a seven-year gap between the rapture and the actual second coming of Christ, although the Bible always says it will take place at the second coming of Christ. So they don’t really have very good biblical evidence for their position.
SPEAKER 13 :
Steve, thank you again.
SPEAKER 10 :
All right. Good talking to you, Steve. Thanks for your call. Bye now. All right. Our next caller is Aaron from Virginia. Aaron, welcome to The Narrow Path. Thanks for calling.
SPEAKER 05 :
Hey, I’ve got a quick question for you. So I would consider myself a replacement kind of guy, replacement theology kind of guy. But I was in Romans 11 today, and it seemed so clear to me, even as a replacement guy, that Romans 11… seem to support the dispensational view you know it’s like I’m coming back to Israel you know like I’m a hard in Israel for a time but then I’m coming back to them so then I went to your teaching on Romans 11 just to see what you thought about it and it seemed like you were saying all Israel be saved is just his way of saying the church will be saved because all Israel yeah all Israel is the olive tree he just before he says all Israel be saved he
SPEAKER 10 :
he tells us about the olive tree, okay, in Romans 11. Now, the olive tree is Israel. It always was in the Old Testament and the New Testament. You know, in Jeremiah 11, 16, Jeremiah referred to Israel as an olive tree that has branches broken off. Now, that’s the very image that Paul uses in Romans 11, beginning at verse 16, an olive tree with branches broken off. Now, the difference was in both cases, Israel is the olive tree, but in In Jeremiah’s case, the branches were broken off was a reference to Jews who had been carried away into captivity in Babylon. And the branches that were left on were those who were still in Israel at that time. But Paul takes the same image and changes it just a bit in that, although he probably sees it as the same concept spiritually, is that the olive tree is Israel and some branches have been broken off. But this is worse for them than just being in captivity in Babylon. They’ve been broken off. from God because of their lack of faith. He says, because of their unbelief, they were broken off. Now, if they’re unbelievers, they’re not saved. So, those who were… Go ahead. Okay.
SPEAKER 05 :
I was going to say, it seems like you’re saying, when he says all Israel will be saved, you think that’s saying all of the church will be saved. Right. It seems like an unnecessary statement. Why would Paul say, all saved people will be saved? You know, it’s like we already know.
SPEAKER 10 :
No, no, he’s pointing out. Okay, you have to start the discussion where Paul starts it back in Romans 9. Romans 9, 10, and 11 are one fluid discussion with no breaks. In chapter 9, at the beginning, he introduces the issue of the fact that God had made promises to Israel, had a covenant with Israel. But… Most Israelites are not believers, and therefore it seems like God hasn’t saved Israel as his covenant promises would seemingly require him to do. And so Paul is raising the question, why is this? If God has made a covenant with Israel to save them, why are most Jews not saved? And he answers it initially in verse 6 of chapter 9. They are not all Israel who are of Israel. In other words, God did make promises to Israel to save them, and to keep covenant with him. But not everyone who’s descended from Israel is Israel. God made a promise to a certain Israel, but it doesn’t include everybody who’s Jewish. And Paul points that out by saying Abraham had two sons, only one was chosen, Isaac. Isaac had two sons, only one of them was chosen, Jacob. Now this is not about salvation, this is simply talking about God selecting who’s going to be Israel. Now, Israel was not saved in the Old Testament, except from Egypt. They weren’t saved by being Jewish. But when Jesus came, he came to save the true Israel. Now, in the Old Testament, it was made very clear. God considers Israel, the ones to whom his covenant applies, to be those who are of the faithful remnant. Not every Jewish person. And Paul’s not making something up here when he says they are not all Israel, who are of Israel. He’s pointing out exactly what the Old Testament says. If you look at Psalm chapter 50, it says, he’s addressing, first of all, his righteous remnant. And he says in Psalm 50, verse 55, no, verse 5, excuse me, gather my saints together to me, those who have made a covenant with me by sacrifice. Okay, so he’s saying I’ve got righteous ones, I’ve got saintly ones who have made a covenant with me by sacrifice. But then 16, verse 16, 11 verses later, It says, but to the wicked, God says, what right have you to declare my statutes or to take my covenant on your mouth, seeing you hate instruction and cast my words behind you? Now, these are Jews. He’s not talking to Gentiles. He’s talking about those who have no right to do what they are doing. That is, they were taking his covenant on their mouth. But like Isaiah said, these people draw near to me with their mouth, but their hearts are far from me. He’s saying, you’ve got no right to claim my covenant. You’re wicked. You’ve rejected my words. So the psalmist himself argues that Israel is made up of covenant Jews who are faithful and Jews that were not faithful to the covenant, whom God owes nothing to. And that’s where Paul is going.
SPEAKER 05 :
Right. So if you and I both agree that there can be wicked people in Israel, which we both agree with that, that God can… Say, I’m not obligated to whatever. But are you saying that you don’t think in the Old Testament God had a covenant with ethnic Israel?
SPEAKER 10 :
Yeah, but it wasn’t a covenant of salvation. The covenant he made was with Abraham. The Abrahamic covenant was that through his seed, all the nations of the earth would be blessed. Now, what does that mean? Well, Paul tells us what it means in Galatians 3. He says that seed is Christ. And through Christ being preached to all the nations, all the nations are being blessed. So through Abraham’s seed, all the nations are being blessed. And so that promise is true.
SPEAKER 05 :
Isn’t it the fulfillment part of it? Like the New Testament part of it? You say you think that was in the Old Testament he was talking about Christ.
SPEAKER 10 :
Yes, that’s what Paul said, yeah. Paul said, I can quote him here from Galatians 3.16. He said, Now to Abraham and his seed the promises were made. Then he says, now, it does not say seeds, plural, but seed, singular, which is Christ. So Paul tells us what God said to Abraham and said he didn’t mean seeds, plural. He didn’t mean the whole nation of Israel. He meant one seed of Abraham, which is Christ. So when God made a promise to Abraham, it was a promise that he would bring the Messiah through him who would be his seed. Now, when God brought the Jews out of Egypt, or Israel out of Egypt, the nation, he brought them to Mount Sinai. And he put a finer point on the covenant. He made it clear that they as a nation could be the ones through whom this fulfillment would come. But he said, if you obey my voice and keep my covenant, then it will be so. This is in Exodus 19.
SPEAKER 05 :
But how could that could be if Jesus was the land flame before the foundation of the world? It’s like they could have made it.
SPEAKER 10 :
Well, no, no, no, they couldn’t. No, they couldn’t be the Messiah. They couldn’t be the Messiah, but they could be the ones through whom the Messiah will come. See, and they were. That’s what Israel was chosen for. The nation of Israel was chosen to bring the Messiah into the world because that would be the fulfillment of Abraham’s dreams and the promise made to him. But God told the nation of Israel that they could be a special nation themselves if they keep his covenant. Now, that was conditional. And that’s why the psalmist says to the Jews who aren’t keeping his covenant, you’re not my people. Don’t take my covenant on your lips. You see, the Old Testament, if you read the Old Testament promises in the prophets, they’re made to the remnant. They’re not made to the whole Jewish race. They’re made to the faithful remnant. Ahab or Manasseh, wicked Jews, they were wicked. They broke the covenant of God. Judas Iscariot, Caiaphas broke the covenant of God. They are not the true Israel. The true Israel are the faithful remnant. Now, when Paul’s talking about that in Romans 11, what he says is that The olive tree, which is Israel, has had some branches broken off. He means the ones who are unbelievers. They’re not of the faithful remnant. They’re not covenant keeping. Christ made a new covenant with Israel, and most Jews don’t keep it. They don’t follow Christ. And so they’re done. They’re cut off. Now, they’re not necessarily permanently done. They can come back, but they have to come back on the same terms as anyone else. Faith in Christ. But then Paul said, after those unbelieving branches are cut off, he says, now, and Gentile branches have been added on. So what does the tree Israel have? It has branches. What are the branches? Jews and Gentiles. What distinguishes these Jews and Gentiles as being part of the tree? Faith in Christ. The unbelieving Jews were cut off because they didn’t have faith in Christ. And the Gentiles who were added were added by faith. So, in other words, the tree that’s called Israel is no longer to be identified with any particular race or nation. It is identified with faith. The Jews who have faith, they’re part of it. The Jews that aren’t, don’t have faith, are not part of it. The Gentiles who have faith are part of it. The Gentiles who don’t have faith are not. Israel is now the community of faith made up of Jews and Gentiles. That’s exactly what Paul goes through when he talks about the olive tree. I don’t know how anyone could miss it, although I have to say I missed it for a while, but I don’t know how I did. And at the end of that, he says, and in this way, all Israel will be saved. By all Israel, he means all the olive tree, including the Gentile part of Israel. You see, not all the Jews will be saved. That’s never stated anywhere in Scripture. But all Israel will be, and Israel, not all are Israel who are of Israel. Israel is the believers, Jew and Gentile, who are now part of the olive tree. That’s Israel. And all that Israel will be saved. So what he’s actually telling them is that, essentially, that Israel, in fact, the promise has been kept. God has made a new covenant with Israel. He has saved Israel. But you have to understand who he means by Israel. It’s the believers. And by adding the believing Gentiles to the believing Jews, in this way, Paul says, all the true Israel is being saved. So that’s what Romans 11 is about.
SPEAKER 05 :
So you’re okay with when God said, Abraham, I’m going to bless everybody through your seed. You’re okay with everybody in the Old Testament missing what he was talking about, basically. Because nobody in the Old Testament probably knew he was talking about Jesus.
SPEAKER 10 :
Well, we don’t know what they knew. I mean, there was indeed a progressive revelation. He didn’t mention Messiah in that passage, but later on, he did talk about the Messiah. And to the prophets, the idea of who the Messiah was developed even more thoroughly. By the time of Christ, there were lots of ideas about the Messiah, but the Old Testament had spoken a great deal, and Jesus came and fulfilled what the Old Testament said. So, I mean, yeah, the fact that many Jews were wrong, sure. I mean, many Jews are wrong now. Why couldn’t they be wrong then? You know, in fact, I mean, many Christians are wrong, for crying out loud. So, I mean, if Christians can be wrong and Jews can be wrong, anybody can be wrong. And, you know, am I okay with the idea that most Jews were wrong? Well, I mean, it would be nice if they weren’t, but it doesn’t pose any challenges to my faith to acknowledge that most Jews were wrong then just like most Jews are wrong now.
SPEAKER 05 :
It’s been a pleasure. I appreciate the conversation.
SPEAKER 10 :
Okay, Aaron. Thanks for your call. Good talking to you. Bye now. Okay, we’re going to talk to Jason from San Bernardino, California. Jason, welcome to The Narrow Path. Thanks for calling.
SPEAKER 03 :
Hey, Steve. Hey, just piggybacking on the last call, can you tell me what basis you would have or what would be your argument for saying that the Mosaic Covenant would be bilateral as opposed to unilateral?
SPEAKER 10 :
Yeah, well, because God said so. That’s the main reason. When God made that covenant, is it in Exodus chapter 19 and verse 5? And it starts out with the words, if. Now, the words if means this is conditional, right? And so he brings them to Mount Sinai, and he says them in verse 4. Let’s start there. Now you have seen what I did to the Egyptians, how I bore you on eagles’ wings and brought you to myself. Now therefore, if you will indeed obey my voice, and if you will keep my covenant, then you shall be a special treasure to me above all people, for all the earth is mine. And under those conditions you shall be to me a kingdom of priests and a holy nation. These are the words which you shall speak to the children of Israel. So God made this conditional promise to them. If you keep my covenant, if you obey my voice, you’ll be my holy nation. You’ll be my special people. You’ll be my kingdom of peace.
SPEAKER 03 :
Have you ever heard dispensationalists try to argue that that only affects their ability to enjoy the promises of God rather than their entitlement to the covenant itself?
SPEAKER 10 :
Well, see, people can make verse mean anything they want to if they’re trying to prove a presupposed theory. But this is pretty much clear cut. I mean, there’s nothing in here that says that they could be his people and enjoy it more if they’re obedient than if they’re not. Actually, you can see if you go to Deuteronomy chapter 28 that God gives them, again, this very conditional statement that he’s going to curse them in every conceivable way if they break the covenant. In fact… He says that, he says in verse 63, Deuteronomy 28, 63, he says, It shall be that just as the Lord rejoiced over you to do you good and multiply you, so the Lord will rejoice over you to destroy you and bring you to nothing. And you’ll be plucked off the land which you go to possess.
SPEAKER 03 :
So did Israel violate the terms of the covenant such that it would not render the covenant in effect in your opinion?
SPEAKER 10 :
Did they ever keep it?
SPEAKER 03 :
Right. I mean, like, is it a valid contract at this point being that one party seems to have constantly violated it?
SPEAKER 10 :
Yeah. Well, whenever whenever there’s two people make a contract and one party doesn’t hold up his end, then the one who’s just and who’s faithful has the right to nullify the contract or not.
SPEAKER 03 :
And you believe that applies to God as well. Oh, absolutely. Absolutely.
SPEAKER 10 :
I mean, think of marriage. Think of marriage. God used that. He used his own relationship with Israel as an illustration for marriage, didn’t he? I mean, of himself. Where was that? Well, he did that in Jeremiah 3. He did that in Hosea chapters 1 through 3. Okay. And in Jeremiah 31 verses 33 and 34, he did. So he considered that to be like a marriage contract. Now, if a man is married to a woman and she cheats on him, she’s broken the contract. Are they divorced? Not if he doesn’t want to be. He can forgive her. He can give her another chance. And she can keep cheating, and he can keep giving her more chances. If the time comes where he says, okay, no more chances, this is it, we’re divorced, then he’s got every right to do so. But he has the same right to forgive if he wants to. And that’s how God was behaving in the Old Testament time. He said, okay, you break my contract, but I’m going to extend your opportunities to still be saved. If you repent. Then he said, you killed all my prophets. I’m going to still not divorce you. But then, when the son came, read the parable at the end of Matthew 21. After they killed all the prophets, they also killed the son. But before God sent the son, he said, last of all, he sent his son. In other words, he sent them a whole stream of prophets that they killed and persecuted, but he had one more chance he was going to give them. Last of all, Jesus said, he sent his son, and they killed him too. Then Jesus said, so what’s going to happen to them? The answer was he was going to miserably destroy those wicked men and lease his vineyard out to others who will bring forth the fruits of it. And so Jesus said in verse 43, Therefore the kingdom of God is taken from you and given to a nation that will bring forth the fruits of it. So it was taken from Israel and given to somebody who would bring forth the fruits of it. Now, who is called the holy nation now? Well, read 1 Peter 2, verses 9 and 10. He’s writing to the church. He says, You are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, a holy nation. The very things that God said Israel would be if they were obedient, well, that’s not them anymore. It’s now the people of God who are followers of Christ.
SPEAKER 03 :
So why is it so important for dispensationalists to make these distinctions and to try to pigeonhole it in this way? I mean, what’s at stake for them, ultimately?
SPEAKER 10 :
Well, I don’t know what’s personally at stake for them, but with reference to their system… It’s important for them to argue that the Jewish promises, the promises God made to the Jews, have not really been fulfilled yet and have to be fulfilled in the end times or in the millennium. And so their argument is that there are promises God made in the Old Testament that the Jews have never realized.
SPEAKER 03 :
Isn’t there a passage in Joshua that says all of these good promises have been fulfilled or something like that?
SPEAKER 10 :
Yes, there is.
SPEAKER 03 :
That’s not…
SPEAKER 10 :
Well, all the land promises certainly have been. Joshua makes it very clear at the end of the book that God had given them every bit of land that he promised them, and nothing had failed to be true. But there were other promises besides land. But those promises that the New Testament teaches, those promises are fulfilled in Christ. They have to do with righteousness and peace and joy in the Holy Spirit.
SPEAKER 03 :
Any particular passages you would cite as critical to where the New Testament says those other things besides land were fulfilled in the church or in Christ?
SPEAKER 10 :
Yeah. Romans 14, 17 just said the kingdom of God is not food and drink. It is. And by the way, the kingdom of God is what was promised to the Jews in the Old Testament. He said it is righteousness and peace and joy in the Holy Spirit. Those are the things God promised in the prophets through the Messiah, that he’d bring righteousness to his people, peace to his people, rejoicing to his people. Those are the things you’ll find again and again. in the promises of the Old Testament concerning the Messianic kingdom. And so what Paul says is, well, those things exist now in the Holy Spirit. That’s the kingdom of God. He said it’s not what you eat or drink. The kingdom of God is righteousness and peace and joy in the Holy Spirit. And, of course, he’s talking about Christian experience since those things are the fruit of the Spirit, and the Holy Spirit is the possession of the Christians. So that would be about as much as we can talk about now, but there’s tomorrow if you want to call back. Good talking to you. You’re listening to The Narrow Path radio broadcast. My name’s Steve Gregg. You know, we’re a listener-supported ministry. We buy the time on the radio. Someone just told me the other day, they thought, oh, I thought you guys got paid to be on the radio. Well, some people might, but I don’t. We have to buy the time, and that’s how you get to hear us every day. If you’d like to help us pay for the radio time, we don’t have anything for sale. We get it all through the mail from people like you. If you’d like to send money, you can, or just send encouragement. You can write to TheNarrowPath, P.O. Box… 1730 Temecula, California, 92593. Or go to the website. You can do it from there, too. That’s thenarrowpath.com. Thanks for joining us. God bless you.
