In this thought-provoking episode, Steve Gregg examines the nuanced interpretations of election in Calvinism and addresses contemporary church issues through callers’ real-life scenarios. Tune in to hear Steve demystify the tough questions arising from scriptural interpretations and everyday challenges, including how believers can act righteously amidst a society that often disputes Christian values. As always, the discussion remains open, inviting listeners to question, understand, and draw personal conclusions.
SPEAKER 1 :
Thank you.
SPEAKER 04 :
Good afternoon and welcome to the Narrow Path radio broadcast. My name is Steve Gregg and we are on each weekday at this time for an hour, during which time we are live on most of these stations so that you can call in and you can ask questions about the Bible, about Christianity and things on your mind like that. Or if you have a different viewpoint from the host and want to talk about that, feel free to call in about that. Right now I’m looking at a switchboard that has one open line. If you want to call right now, you can get it. The number is 844-484-5737. Again, that number is 844-484-5737. And I’ll try to make this brief. I’ve been making this announcement all for the last couple weeks. Starting day after tomorrow, Friday night, I’m going to be beginning an itinerary of speaking. It’ll be 11 nights and 11 days in different locations in Michigan, Indianapolis, Indiana, and in Illinois. And if you live in any of those areas, there’s several locations in Michigan. Grand Rapids will be the first of them this Friday night. And there are others. And if you live in those areas and want to join us for any of those meetings, you can learn everything you need to know if you just go to thenarrowpath.com. That’s thenarrowpath.com. And under the tab that says Announcements, you’ll find all that information. All right. We’ll go to the phones now and talk to David in Natick, or Natick, probably, Massachusetts. Hi, David. Welcome.
SPEAKER 07 :
Hi, Steve. Thanks for taking my call. I was curious about this, where God changes his mind. Sometimes in Scripture it shows if he was going to do one thing, then does something different. I’ve heard different theologies say, oh, he doesn’t change his mind. So there was one that I think I was going through, Isaiah, with your whole topical lecture series. And I saw that when Hezekiah was sick, and Isaiah told him that you will die from this, get your affairs in order, but then he prays and cries, and then God sends Isaiah back and says, I’m going to add 15 years to your life. So it definitely seems like God changes his mind, or, you know, but… I see some people say, oh, he doesn’t change his mind. He already knew that he was going to pray. Could you kind of elaborate? I don’t see a problem with God changing his mind on certain circumstances, whether it be repentance or prayer. But I’ve been hearing certain theologies say that, you know, he doesn’t change his mind. His plan is always there and Doesn’t change.
SPEAKER 04 :
Well, he certainly changes his announcements. So if that reflects a change of mind, then he changes his mind, too. The question is, did he know that this was going to happen this way? Did he know that when he told Hezekiah he’s going to die, that Hezekiah would pray and give God a reason to extend his life for 15 years? If so, I don’t know. God might have spoken the same way. yet knowing exactly what’s going to happen and intending for it to happen that way. I mean, this is one of very many cases in the Bible where God says he’s going to do something, and then somebody changes. Like when Moses talked God out of destroying the Israelites when they made the golden calf. God said, get out of my way. I’m going to go wipe them all out, and I’ll make another nation out of you that’s greater than them. And Moses interceded for them. And God said, okay, I’m not going to do it then. Likewise, when Jonah said, 40 days and then I will perish, and the people repented, and God says, okay, I’m not. Now, interestingly, in the story of Jonah, and a very similar passage in Jeremiah 18, verses 7 through 10, it actually uses the word that God repented. And, of course, it even says that in the flood story. In Genesis 6, that God repented that he made man, and he was deeply grieved. So, I mean, all of these things look like God is changing his mind. In fact, the very word repent suggests a change of mind. Now, however, generally speaking, every time we read of God changing his mind, it’s reflective of a change of behavior. The reason he was angry or upset and repented that he’d made man is because man had changed his behavior to become wicked. from the way that God first made him. There’s either a change of behavior or someone’s praying. You know, somebody is ceding. And the Bible makes it very clear, especially in Jeremiah 18, verses 7 through 10, that God will typically do that. If he says he’s going to bless someone and they go bad, he’ll repent of the good he said he would do them. If he said he’s going to destroy people and they turn and do good, he said he’ll repent of the evil he said he’d do. So, God speaks of it as a general policy of his. Now, what that means, of course, he’s an interactive God. Now, what we have trouble with. is how God operates in or outside of time. Well, we know he operates inside of time because there’s a time before he does a certain thing on the earth, and there’s a time after that. So he’s operating within time. Some people think he operates outside of time. Now, this is basically a philosophical idea. The Bible doesn’t say it, but many Christians have argued, C.S. Lewis being famous for it, that God lives outside the realm of time. and he lives in eternity, and he sees the future as clearly as he sees the past or the present. Now, we don’t know if this is true. The Bible doesn’t say that about God, but it could be true. We do know that God is able to predict things that would otherwise be unpredictable, which suggests that he knew they were going to happen before there was any indicator they were going to happen, and that suggests something. You know, God’s foreknowledge of events. But there’s different ways even to understand that. Because one could argue, in most cases at least, when God says this is going to happen, he’s referring to something that he is himself going to do. And he knows that he’s going to do it. So it’s going to happen. Although, of course, there are times he says something will happen and he won’t do it because the people will change. So, you know, did God… Did God literally change his mind? Yeah. Exactly. Almost everything God says is going to happen is conditional, and he doesn’t change in that respect. That’s his policy all the time. Now, does he change his mind for the same reasons we do? When we change our minds, it’s because we thought one thing was true, and we got new information that we didn’t have before, and we changed our mind about it. But the idea that God gets new information suggests there’s information there. about the future that God does not have access to yet. And when he gets that information, then he changes his mind. I’m not sure that when the Bible talks about God changing his mind, that it is saying that he’s like us in that respect, that he got some new information. It may be. I don’t know. I mean, the Bible doesn’t explain how he knows the future. But it may be that he got some new information. Or it may simply be that he has a policy and he never changed that policy. That, you know, when people pray or repent… he reverses course. And he may or may not have known that that was going to happen. You know, if he knows all future things, then he knew all that was going to happen. He knew that Moses would intercede and that he would then recant on what he said himself. He knew that Nineveh would repent and that God would recant on the damage he said he’d do. Others would say, no, he didn’t know. And when he saw that they repented, then he changed his mind. Maybe, you know, there’s an awful lot of Well, I think people who want to be insistent on one way or the other about this are claiming to have much more expertise in a subject that none of us has any expertise about than they legitimately could claim. Like, what is going on in God’s head at any given moment? What does he know?
SPEAKER 02 :
What does he not know?
SPEAKER 04 :
Yeah, well, if you’re going to tell me you know those things, I’m going to say, wow, you operate at a higher pay grade than I do or any other human being I know, you know, who has known the mind of the Lord, you know, who has been his counselor. So all I can say is if God says, if he predicts he’s going to do something good, he will reverse that if the person he was favoring goes bad. And if he says he’s going to do something, give a penalty, Well, he’ll recant that if the people repent. And also we see cases of people. Now, in Hezekiah’s case, the case you brought up, he didn’t repent, but he did pray. And God answers prayers also, whether it’s, in that case, a man praying for his own self or Moses praying for Israel or, frankly, anyone else interceding. God doesn’t always answer every prayer. But he is entitled to. And sometimes he may put people in a situation to inspire them to pray, to get them to look to him. you know, God would like us probably to look to him more often than we naturally do. And sometimes it may take a certain threat or something that we sense to get us to pray. Maybe, you know, so I mean, who knows? We can’t really know how God is, you know, understanding things because we’re not at his level. So I’m just happy to know that if he tells me something’s going to happen that has to do with my behavior, that if I don’t If I don’t blow it, then that’s going to happen.
SPEAKER 07 :
Yeah.
SPEAKER 04 :
Yeah.
SPEAKER 07 :
Okay. Well, that’s good. Yeah, I just see the, well, God doesn’t change. He says it doesn’t change, so that means that everything that he ever said is going to be, you know.
SPEAKER 04 :
There is a doctrine that came into the church some centuries ago, I guess, called the impassibility of God. I don’t know if you’re familiar with that term, the impassibility. It means God has no emotions and no passions. I don’t know where that doctrine came from. It didn’t come from the Bible. It certainly did not come from the Bible. Because the Bible, God always describes himself as having emotions and passions. Now, it may be that those are, someone would say, well, that’s anthropological language. Well, maybe so. But We don’t know that it is. In any case, there’s nothing in the Bible that says God has no passions, has no changes, that he doesn’t get angry at things and isn’t happy about certain things. I mean, the Bible always describes them as if the opposite is true. But people who believe in the impassibility of God, that would be a function of his never changing. Now, to say that God never changes, what does that really mean when we say that? It’s not based on very much scripture. It’s based largely on Malachi, you know, Malachi chapter 2 or 3, where God says, I am the Lord, I do not change.
SPEAKER 07 :
Do not change, right.
SPEAKER 04 :
Yeah, therefore, you know, you are not consumed, O Israel. In other words, the reason you haven’t been consumed is because I’m consistent, he’s saying. And I’ve made promises I’m keeping, so I’m consistent. But when he says, I do not change, that’s not an absolute statement. It’s like when we put together a systematic theology statement. We’re looking to make absolute. We want to make absolute statements about God just because we feel like it’s a little too far. Yeah, we feel more comfortable having some absolute propositions to make. But then we go looking for proof text for them and we’ll pick out proof text that are, you know, sound like they’re saying what we want to say. But a lot of times they’re not saying everything.
SPEAKER 07 :
Ignoring the stuff that it shows the opposite.
SPEAKER 04 :
Yeah. Yeah. So, I mean, if you ask me, does God change his mind? Well, he certainly does. He does change course. He certainly does change his announcements. Did he know he was going to do that in advance? So it’s not really a change of mind at his level, you know, that it was planned all along. It’s going to go this way and nothing has changed in that respect in his mind. But certainly from our perspective, he certainly does.
SPEAKER 07 :
And that’s why the Bible describes it that way. He definitely had a plan, and then he added 15 more years, and it seemed just out of compassion.
SPEAKER 04 :
Yeah, and I mean, that simply, of course, is of a piece with the whole teaching of Scripture that God answers prayer. Some people say, you know, God doesn’t change anything, it just changes you. I don’t know if you’ve ever heard that, but there’s people who think that pretty much everything’s already been ordained by God. And so whatever I ask God to do, he’s either going to do it or not going to do it because that was going to happen or not anyway because it’s all preordained. I don’t believe that. But some who do would say, well, then why do we pray? Well, we pray because it doesn’t change anything because that’s all determined. But it changes you. Well, my position is if it changes me, it changes something. I mean, was I predetermined to have that change in me or not? You know, I mean, you can’t say prayer changes nothing if it changes you. If it changes you, it might change a lot of other things, too. Who knows? Change.
SPEAKER 07 :
Well, it definitely changed him. He became 15 years older.
SPEAKER 04 :
That’s right. Exactly. All right, brother. I won’t keep you then, but thank you, though. Okay, good talking to you, David. Bye now. Take care. Bye-bye. Okay, let’s see. Mark from West Hartford, Connecticut. Welcome to The Narrow Path. Thanks for calling.
SPEAKER 09 :
You’re welcome. Steve, I just have three kind of questions. They’re quick. I hadn’t prepared a question, but the first being with the website that you have, and I use the verse-by-verse teachings as I read through the Bible. Fantastic. I’ve said it before. But in Psalms, you don’t have – or I can’t find – any verse-by-verse teaching from Psalm 90 to 97.
SPEAKER 04 :
That is probably true. That is probably true. You know, when I did the Psalms, it was many, many years ago, and I don’t remember which year recorded them because I taught the Psalms many different years in our school. And sometimes I took the Psalms in topical groups or groups of a certain type, a genre of Psalms, because there are different genres of Psalms. Other times I try to go more through the book. and I haven’t really examined what we have posted. What we have posted is the teaching through Psalms I did some year or another at our school, and I apologize. I’m pretty sure that I have been informed that there are Psalms that are not included in it, and it’s made me want to redo the Psalms and make sure we get them all done.
SPEAKER 09 :
Okay. Yeah, I was just wondering if it was somewhere else, and I was missing it or couldn’t find it. That’s all.
SPEAKER 04 :
Probably not. Yeah, if the thing says I know of, yeah.
SPEAKER 09 :
Okay. And the next question is concerning a friend of mine who’s, we’re in Connecticut, and he’s going to, his church is sponsoring a person that’s coming over, a great Danny. Oh, my goodness. He’s a prophet. He says he’s a prophet.
SPEAKER 04 :
I don’t know any prophets named Danny, yeah.
SPEAKER 09 :
Yeah, okay.
SPEAKER 04 :
Daniel, there’s Daniel the prophet.
SPEAKER 09 :
I know Daniel the prophet. I mean, modern-day prophets. I was just wondering if you heard anything. But obviously I should have wrote down the name, which I didn’t, and I apologize for that if I think of it real quick. And my other question is we’re in Connecticut. New England is probably the weakest faith people in the country.
SPEAKER 06 :
I know.
SPEAKER 09 :
It is terrible. But anyways, is there any time that you ever come to the East Coast or upwards anywhere near New England?
SPEAKER 04 :
I’ve only really, yeah, very rarely, but I’ve only taught in Connecticut once. I’ve been in Connecticut passing through a few times. I’ve taught in Massachusetts over the years. But I do have a good pastor friend in Connecticut who’s excellent. And I led him to the Lord back in 1975. I had the pleasure of leading him to the Lord. He was a hippie, but he’s been a pastor for, you know, 50 years or something, almost. But let’s see here. Where do you live? Are you anywhere near New London?
SPEAKER 09 :
Well, it’s a small state, so yes.
SPEAKER 04 :
The reason I ask is because my friend is the pastor of Calvary Chapel in New London, Connecticut, and he’s He’s a great guy. I mean, I don’t know everything about him because he lives across the nation from me, but he’s a zealous and godly and God-honoring and biblical guy. You know, he has had me teach one time in his church just because I’ve only been one time in his town. And, you know, I think he’d invite me again. Even though he’s a Calvary Chapel pastor, usually Calvary Chapels don’t invite me, but he happens to be a convert of mine, so he usually is open to me.
SPEAKER 09 :
Okay, I’ll seek him out and see if I can contact him. I got the name of the guy. It’s Denny Kramer. Don’t know it. Okay, all right. I just thought I’d throw it out there. All right, well, thanks for your time. I’ll call you back when I have a prepared question, but thank you for your information on this show. Okay, Mark.
SPEAKER 04 :
Thanks for your call. Bye-bye. Bye now. Jim in Sacramento, California. Hey, Jim, you’re calling a lot these days. How are you doing?
SPEAKER 11 :
Getting ready to go to the cardiologist tomorrow, I got an observation. Dr. Nesbitt, professor of mathematics at Cal Davis, wrote a book, Seven Dimensional God. In that book, he suggests that time is three-dimensional like space is. And so I’m in Sacramento. If you’re in Temecula, if I wanted to travel from Sacramento to Temecula, I would be changing timelines from Sacramento to the timeline of Temecula.
SPEAKER 04 :
Well, not really. We’re in the same time zone. I mean, if you look at your clock there in Sacramento, it’s exactly… 2 o’clock and 22 minutes and 43 seconds, just like it is here. I understand there are three dimensions of time and three dimensions of space. And then he says seven dimensions. I suppose he’s saying that God is in another dimension that’s outside both of those, correct?
SPEAKER 11 :
Well, what he actually suggests is that our illusion of progressive time is just that, and that the real truth is that every single, Second is, in fact, simultaneous with every other second.
SPEAKER 04 :
Well, let me just say this, Jim. That is an impractical truth, if it’s true. If it’s true, it’s an impractical one. In other words, it’s one that we never would ever have to know, and it wouldn’t change anything.
SPEAKER 11 :
He suggested that’s why the Scripture says that Jesus is the Lamb of God slain before the foundation of the world. According to him and according to some of my Catholic friends, the cross is an event that is still occurring.
SPEAKER 04 :
Well, okay. Let me just say, Jim, that is a very esoteric, what should we say, theory. If it is true, we have absolutely no way to prove it. If it’s not true, we have absolutely no way to prove it. If it’s true, it makes absolutely no difference in our lives. If it’s not true, it makes no difference in our lives. In other words, people can come up with really wild things like that. And if they’re true, well, we’ll never know. And if they are, it won’t change anything about the way we live. But, yeah, I appreciate the fact that people are thinking those kinds of things. I’ve heard theoretic things like that before. All right. Thank you for your call, bro. Let’s see here. Michael from Inglewood, California. Welcome to The Narrow Path. Thanks for calling.
SPEAKER 06 :
Hey, Steve, can you hear me okay?
SPEAKER 04 :
I’m on Bluetooth. I can, yeah. I didn’t get the drive. It’s a little muffled. I have to say it’s a little muffled, but, yeah. I mean, go ahead. I’ve heard you so far. Go ahead.
SPEAKER 06 :
Okay, so it was kind of a far drive for me, but I wanted to ask how was theology Thursday last week?
SPEAKER 04 :
I didn’t count the people, but it looked like, you know, someone told me there were between 50 and 60 people there. That’s pretty good at a pizza parlor. Yeah, it went well. People seem to enjoy it.
SPEAKER 06 :
Okay. That’s good to know. I’m going to still try to make it one day. Great. You have a question? Thank you very much. Is that all? I just wanted to know how it went.
SPEAKER 04 :
Yes. Okay. Okay, Michael. Thank you for your call. All right. Let’s talk to Jackie in Ridge, New Hampshire. Jackie, welcome.
SPEAKER 10 :
Hi, Steve. Can you hear me?
SPEAKER 04 :
Yes. Go ahead.
SPEAKER 10 :
Okay, Steve. Hi. So I know you’re not Catholic, and I’m not either, but I just wanted to know what your opinion was on annulment, and could I tell you a little bit about my background?
SPEAKER 04 :
Well, we don’t have very much time before we have a hard break. Okay.
SPEAKER 10 :
I’ll make it real brief. Okay, go ahead. Married 35 years, have two grown children. was in an abusive verbal, emotional, and physical relationship, and I finally divorced him, and now he wants an annulment, and I just want to know, I mean, I have two grown kids.
SPEAKER 04 :
On what grounds would he seek an annulment? Why doesn’t he just want a divorce?
SPEAKER 10 :
Oh, well, we’re getting a divorce, but because he’s now Catholic all of a sudden, you know, he hasn’t been For 30 years, now he’s real Catholic, and he’s got the boys going to Catholic church. I brought them up Christian, and now he’s saying he wants an annulment. He can get the annulment without me, but I’m just wondering.
SPEAKER 04 :
I can’t imagine why the Catholic church would grant him one. I mean, first of all, unless you lied to him about your circumstances before you were married to him. I don’t know why they’d grant it. I mean, I would think the only time an annulment would make sense is if people entered into a covenant and one party was totally deceiving the other one as to, let’s just say they’re being single, let’s say they secretly had another family, or there were other things that would have prevented you from marrying them if they had not deceived you about them. I think annulments generally are granted when there’s been some deception at the outset of And, you know, other than that, it’d be a divorce. But, of course, Catholic Church doesn’t allow divorce, as I understand it. So they’ll go for an annulment instead. But that’s to me, that’s just playing with words. I mean, if they want him to be free from the marriage, then they should just grant a divorce because that’s what it is. He made you guys had vows. You had a legal marriage. You had a family. You have children. You know, an annulment would more or less suggest, I don’t know what the Catholics say, but an annulment would suggest you never really were married. Which means your children were not born to a married couple. They were born outside of marriage. And it’s absurd. It’s absurd. Now, I really can’t imagine that the Catholic Church would grant him that since there’s absolutely no grounds for it. You can’t just leave a marriage that you’ve been in for 30 years or whatever and say, okay, church, would you grant me an annulment because I’d like to pretend I never was married. I don’t think the church does it that way. Maybe he’s Does it look like they’re going to grant it to him? I mean, is there some indication?
SPEAKER 10 :
Well, we just got divorced, and then he said, would you be open to, I’m going to ask for an annulment, and would you, you know, be open to that? And then I’m thinking.
SPEAKER 04 :
I would say no. No, I’m not open to it. I’m not open to it. There’s no grounds for an annulment. I didn’t lie to you. I mean, if you lied to me, then I deserve an annulment.
SPEAKER 10 :
He lied to me. He pretended he was a born-again Christian, went to church with me for two years, and then I married him, and then forget about it.
SPEAKER 04 :
Yeah, well, that’s happened to a lot of people. You’re not seeking an annulment, and he has no grounds to seek one either. I think if he was seeking one, it would be on the grounds that he could claim that you deceived him, though you didn’t. So, no, I mean, he’s divorced. That’s about as far as anyone could go, I think. I appreciate your call. We’ve got to take a break, but we have another half hour coming up. Don’t go away. The Narrow Path is listener supported. You can write to us at The Narrow Path, P.O. Box 1730, Temecula, California, 92593. Our website is thenarrowpath.com. I’ll be back in 30 seconds. Don’t go away.
SPEAKER 01 :
We highly recommend that you listen to Steve Gregg’s 14 lecture series entitled, When Shall These Things Be? This series addresses topics like the Great Tribulation, Armageddon, the rise of the Antichrist, and the 70th week of Daniel. When Shall These Things Be? can be downloaded in MP3 format without charge from our website, thenarrowpath.com.
SPEAKER 04 :
Welcome back to The Narrow Path radio broadcast. My name is Steve Gregg, and we’re live for another half hour, taking your calls. If you’ve got questions, disagreements about things with Christianity, the Bible, me, any of that, you’re always welcome to call in and bring those up for conversation. The number to call is 844-484-5737. I’m looking at a board that has a few lines open right now, so if you want to get in, you can if you call quickly. 844-484-5737. Our next caller is Nick from Minnesota. Hi, Nick. Welcome to The Narrow Path. Thanks for calling. Thank you.
SPEAKER 05 :
Thank you, Steve. Second time calling. I really appreciate your channel. But I have a question today about blasphemy and just how prevalent it is in our culture. And yet, you know, we want to be the salt of the earth by correcting people on this dish. And yet, it’s so prevalent, it seems like it could be really easy to be castigated as sort of the religious wingnut. And I know there’s some hills to die on and some not to. I want to know how to kind of deal with that. But then I want to also ask regarding when a Christian in the workplace sins against you, but they’re from a different church, and then you go to a different church, they go to a different church, how do you deal with that? And have you seen that where it’s a little bit hairy working with two different churches regarding a sin?
SPEAKER 02 :
Right.
SPEAKER 05 :
And then would you say maybe it’s only good to escalate it to that level across to some other path?
SPEAKER 04 :
You’re cutting out. Are you there? Hello? Your voice cut out. I don’t know if your phone cut out or not. Can you hear me? I hear you now, yeah.
SPEAKER 02 :
Can you hear me?
SPEAKER 04 :
Yeah, you’re back now. You’re cutting out. Bad. Mm-hmm. Third question.
SPEAKER 05 :
So have you seen it work out well in two believers that are different churches where they go to the other pastor and try to work out the sin? Or like I’m thinking in terms of Matthew where there’s an exhalation process and is it better to not deal with it
SPEAKER 04 :
Okay, you keep cutting out. You keep cutting out. I’ve got your two questions. You’re cutting out, so I’ll just go ahead and hang up, and we’ll talk to you about your questions, okay?
SPEAKER 02 :
Okay, thank you.
SPEAKER 04 :
Your phone is terribly connected, yeah. Okay, thank you, Nick. All right. Blasphemy, when you hear people who are not Christians, blaspheming. Should you stand up to them about that? Should you say, hey, how dare you blaspheme? This is a point that Christians in a society like ours have to face a lot. Not just blasphemy, but there’s all kinds of fornication going on. There’s drunkenness going on. There’s lying going on. Blasphemy goes on. All these things are going on in our society. Now, in the Jewish society, under the law, these things would have caused, at least many of them, would have caused a person to be put to death. In other words, there were civil laws against these things. And the reason was… Because Israel was a nation that was founded on a covenant with God. And a covenant has stipulations and promises. And God made certain promises to Israel and made stipulations on them being in covenant with him. They agreed to them. It’s like a marriage covenant. And therefore, you know, the Jewish society had laws to enforce these commandments of God. But They were not enforced on people outside the Jewish community. Only the Jewish nation had this covenant relationship with God, and these laws were enacted to preserve that covenant and its stipulations. Now, that’s a bit analogous to a couple being married or a couple having children, that within their household they can make rules, but they can’t make rules for people next door. about their household, you know. So, you know, that’s how it was. Israel had their rules, had their special relationship, just like a man has a special relationship with his wife and children, and his household, he’s over. But those rules, you know, they may be good rules that everyone should follow, but, you know, the man of the house doesn’t have the right to enforce them on the others. So we are, as Christians, we’re sort of the analog of Israel. We are the people with the covenant with God. We’ve entered in the new covenant. We’re followers of Christ. Now, Paul said that if somebody in the church commits certain kinds of sins, I’ll give you a list of them. He says, now I’ve written to you, 1 Corinthians 5.11, I’ve written to you not to keep company with anyone named a brother, meaning a Christian in the church, who is a fornicator or covetous or an idolater or a reviler or a drunkard or an extortioner. Don’t even eat with such a person. He could have had lots of things on that list, including blasphemer, which is the question I thought. He said if a person is called a brother and does those things, then he should be put under church discipline. But he says earlier, two verses earlier, he says, I wrote to you in my epistle not to keep company with sexually immoral people. which is what he said in the verse we just read. But he says in verse 10, yet I certainly did not mean with the sexually immoral people of the world or with the covetous or extortioners or idolaters, meaning of the world, since you then have to go out of the world. So in other words, you have some obligation to maintain standards within the family, within the household of God. But we don’t have the power to maintain the same standards outside the family of God. They’re out in the world. And so Paul said in verse 12 of the same chapter, this is 1 Corinthians 5, for what have I to do with judging those who are outside the church? But don’t you judge those who are in, but those who are outside God judges. So he’s saying the misbehavior of people who are not Christians is not really our problem. Making them Christians is our assignment. But you don’t make someone a Christian by going up and telling them they can’t blaspheme. They’re not really under our jurisdiction about those things. Now, when they become believers and they are brought into the body of Christ, then the standards of the body of Christ can be imposed upon them and on all Christians. And there can be discipline or excommunication or whatever of people who are in the family of God, as Paul said, but behave in ways that are not okay, which means that when you go to work or you’re out somewhere else and somebody is blaspheming, this is offensive to you and your conscience. But if they’re not a Christian, they don’t answer to you. If they’re not a Christian, God judges them. We don’t judge them. Now, that doesn’t mean we can’t speak to them about it in a nonjudgmental way, Because, I mean, that’s how we are light in the world. We’re a conscience to the world. And when people don’t have any conscience toward God, and they find out that we do, they begin to think, whoa, maybe what I’m doing is wrong. And so there might be a time when you say, you know, I’m sorry to interrupt you, but I find it really offensive when you speak about God that way. Because I’m a child of God. You know, I’m a follower of Christ. And I would really, really appreciate it. If, you know, around me, you wouldn’t do that. Now, you can’t make them do it. And if they say, well, how about this? They start cursing God in your face, then then walk away. There’s nothing more you can do. There’s certainly every reason as a Christian, if the opportunity arises and if you can be gracious about it, to communicate with people outside the church when they’re doing things that offend God to, you know, you’re not to be so much their judge. But their instructor, you know, and say, apparently there’s some things, you know, that you’re not aware of. And I just thought I’d make you aware of them. This is really offensive. It’s offensive to God. It’s offensive to me. It’s offensive to all decent people. So, you know, which maybe could you be more considerate of that fact? That’s not the same thing you would do as if they’re in the church. If they’re in the church, Tony, then you have to say you can’t do that as a Christian. You’ve got to stop that. If you keep doing it, there is such a thing as church discipline. Now, have I ever heard of a case where church discipline of people in one church worked out well when the issue is between someone from a different church? That is to say, Jesus said, if your brother sins against you, go to him yourself and work it out. If he hears you, that’s great. If he doesn’t, go with two. And if he doesn’t hear them, then take it before the church. And if he doesn’t hear the church, then let him be like a pagan or a tax collector. Of course, that’s Matthew 18, verses 15 through 17. Now, how do you work that out when there’s more than one church and they don’t all have the same convictions? In other words, if a man, let’s just say he steals something from you and he’s a Christian, supposedly, but he goes to a different church than you do. And you confront him, and he says, leave me alone. I don’t care about that. And so let’s say you take two, and now it’s time to take it to the church. Well, I guess you’d have to take it to his church since they’re the only ones that he would be concerned about. So, you know, you go to his pastor or whatever and bring it up. Then it’s in the court of that pastor or that leadership group, maybe if you could talk to the elders about it, of his church. Now, you might not be able to. Maybe you wouldn’t have access to it, but you could try. I’ve sometimes told a true story about a friend of mine whose wife left him and she was living with another man. And she was going to a church. It wasn’t the church my friend went to, a different church. And she was, you know, she was actually serving in that church and living in adultery. And my friend went to the pastor of that church and said, you know, this woman, he gave her name. That’s actually my wife, and she’s living in adultery, and you’ve got her serving in this church. And the pastor actually just said, well, we don’t practice church discipline here. So, you know, what do you do? If the leadership is going to disobey Christ, you can’t make them obey. You can just say, okay, well, the church I go to is going to practice this. I mean, in other words, we’re not going to let her come if she chooses to come back to this church. and live that way, well, this church won’t let her do it. But we can’t stop some other church from doing it. God will judge them. I mean, obviously, the Bible says that the leaders of the church have a greater condemnation, a greater judgment, stricter judgment they’ll face. And it’s one thing if an ordinary Christian disobeys God. It’s inexcusable. But if church leaders disobey God, that’s very condemnable. They’ll face a much stronger judgment. once you’ve let them know there’s not more that you can do. There are things they can do and that they should do. But if they say, well, we’re not going to do it, even though God tells us to do it, well, then, of course, they’re rebelling against God. They may not see themselves doing it. They’re just ignoring God, which is rebelling against him. When he’s told you to do something, you say, no, I don’t think I’ll do what you said, God. That’s rebellion. And so I would just say stand far away from that leader, you know, because that person – is as much worthy of church discipline as the person you’re trying to deal with. So you can’t make everyone change. You can’t make anyone change, really. You can do the right thing and associate with people who are determined to do the right thing. But when you find people who won’t, sometimes you just have to grin and bear it, unfortunately. And God will settle the scores. That’s what God does. Eventually. All right. Sorry to hear about that situation, of course. Robert from Round Rock, Texas. Welcome to The Narrow Path. Thanks for calling.
SPEAKER 08 :
Hey, thanks for taking my call. I just got a question on Calvinism. I always hear the word elect or election in there, and I was… wondering uh does that mean the saved and unsaved and or uh i don’t know because they seem to think that god has already predestined a lot of people to be already saved and just some people that are not so i just wanted to know how they’re how are they using it and i’ll take my answer off the air
SPEAKER 04 :
Okay. Okay. Yeah. Thanks for your call, Robert. Well, the word elect in the Greek New Testament is the same as the word chosen. I mean, the verb form elect means to choose. And the adjective elect is chosen. Okay. So this has to do with choosing. Now, you say, does this have to do with choosing people to be saved and people to be lost? Well, it depends on various things. There’s different ways it is used. Sometimes, you know, it’s meant somebody’s chosen for a special thing. If Jesus chose two disciples to go off and get him a donkey to ride into Jerusalem on, his choosing them for that doesn’t have anything to do with their being saved or not. He chose them for a mission. When he was in the upper room with the twelve, he said, you have not chosen me, but I have chosen you. and ordained you to go out and bring forth fruit. Now, he’s not talking about he chose them to be saved. They were already part of a group that are called the disciples before he chose them to be apostles. The apostles were chosen out of a larger group of disciples. All the disciples were saved, but he chose the 12 to send them out, the Bible says, and to bear fruit as they did. So he says, I have chosen you, but he doesn’t mean I chose you out of the devil’s people to be one of my people. He’s saying, I chose you out of a larger body of believers to have this special function of apostles. It’s, in other words, a vocational choosing. And sort of like, you know, when you’re in junior high and at recess and they’re going to choose off apostles. just for a short time of teams to play softball, and, you know, they pick their teams. Well, someone’s chosen to be on a certain team, but that doesn’t have anything to do with their destiny or anything like that. That just has to do with being part of that project and part of that game. Now, there is such a thing as being chosen in the connection of being chosen to belong to Christ, or I should say chosen in Christ, I should say, which does involve salvation. It doesn’t just involve being called to do a certain ministry. It means being called to be in the family of God. But, see, there’s two views about that. The Calvinist view is that God… before time began, knew all that would be saved. I should say he knew all that would exist. He knew all who would ever be born, and he chose some of them to be saved, and he chose some of them to be lost, which means that every person who had been born already before they were born were chosen by God to be saved or to be lost. And if they were chosen to be lost, they simply are not There’s no possibility from the day they’re born until the day they die. There’s no possibility of them being saved. Whereas if they’re chosen to be saved, there’s no possibility of them being lost. So free will has nothing to do with it. This is just everyone’s destined from before birth to be a certain way. That’s not what the Bible teaches, but that’s what Calvinism teaches on this subject of being chosen for salvation. What the Bible says is that we are chosen in Christ. Paul says that in Ephesians 1.4, that he chose us in him. That is, we are chosen as part of being him. In him, Paul says in Ephesians, we have a lot of things. We’re accepted in him. We are seated in him in heavenly places. We are righteous in him. We are chosen in him. What this means is he is all those things. And because we are in him, all those things are true of us too. So we died with him or in him. We rose with him or in him. And we’re seated in heavenly places in him. And we’re chosen in him. What this means is he is. He died. He rose. He’s in the heavenly places. He is righteous. He’s accepted. He is chosen. And we’re in him. So because we’re in him, all those things are true of us. He has chosen all who are in him. But it doesn’t say anywhere that he chose some to be in him. He chose them. We are chosen because we are in him. It doesn’t say he chose us to be in him. That is a choice we make. And it’s very clear that we make it because God holds us entirely responsible. You can’t be held responsible for something you didn’t choose, that you had no choice about. There’s just no way you can be responsible. I mean, just by the very meaning of the word responsible. You’re not responsible for things that you don’t have any power over. The word responsible means able to respond. And if you’re not able… to do something, then you’re not responsible. So it’s that easy. So we are responsible to believe Christ. We are responsible to repent and to become followers of Christ. But when we do make that response, and we are the ones who choose that, God responds or that decision and places us into the body of Christ. And now we’re in Christ. And now we are part of the chosen. He’s chosen. And we are part of him. So in him we’re chosen. And so Paul does speak about the church as being the elect or the chosen ones. Because in him we are. Now he’s not saying that God chose some to be in Jesus and chose some not to be. That choice is ours. And it’s always placed upon the hearer to repent and to believe. There’s never any suggestion that God’s going to make you do that or make you not do that. It’s always put on you, and the responsibility is always on you. So, obviously, I decide if I’m going to be in Christ, and I’m even commanded to remain in him. Abide in me, Jesus said. And, by the way, I’m warned that if I don’t abide in him, it’s going to go badly. Jesus said, if anyone does not remain in me, he’s cast forth as a branch, and they wither and they burn him. So, I mean, obviously, this is all on me. I’m in him. I have to remain in him. If I don’t remain in him, there’s consequences. This is all on me. But in him, I mean, when I am in him, I am in the vine, the chosen vine. I’m one of the chosen branches because the whole vine is chosen and all its branches with it. But branches can be broken off. And although the vine and all the branches in it remain chosen, the branches that aren’t in it anymore are not. So there’s this individual responsibility to be in Christ and to remain in Christ. And then there’s God who has made a choice to save and to glorify all who are in Christ. whoever’s in that group. So that’s how the term is used in the Bible. And I hope that’s helpful and clear. Let’s talk to Maurice from Sacramento, California. Hi, Maurice. Welcome. Hello, Steve.
SPEAKER 03 :
Hi. Hi. I called before. You know, okay. You probably remember me from last time.
SPEAKER 04 :
I don’t. No, I don’t remember, but just give me your question because we’re near the end of the program.
SPEAKER 03 :
Sure. Yeah, yeah. So, I mean, the hot topic today is, you know, I’m Christian from Palestine originally. I remember now, yes. Now you remember. And the question is, like, you know, you hear evangelical pastors talking about the claim that the right of this state of Israel to the land of Palestine or even the greater Israel. Is there anything in the New Testament or anything in the whole Bible that gives it this claim of validity? And the other question is that if Christians give the right to the land to the Israelis today, Doesn’t this actually give them the right to kill people, displace them, starve them, as we see these days happening? I mean, the church chooses to look away these days. But the truth is, we have to answer these questions.
SPEAKER 04 :
Let me answer that, if I could. God, when he called Abraham, said that he’s going to give the land to Abraham’s offspring. Well, of course, Palestinians are Abraham’s offspring, too. at least if they’re Arabs, and I think they are if you go back far enough. They’re probably from Ishmael, and he’s Abram’s offspring. But, of course, as time went on, God clarified more and more it’s going to be Isaac and then Jacob and the 12 tribes. He was giving them the land, but it was conditional. He made it very clear it was conditional. He said in Exodus 19 when he called them out of Egypt, In verse 5 and 6, if you obey my voice and keep my covenant, then you’ll be my special people, and I’ll do all these things for you. He gives a long list. And he also said to them about the land, that he was giving them the land. But even that was not unconditional. He said to them in Leviticus, chapter 18, beginning at verse 24, he said, do not defile yourselves with any of these behaviors that the Canaanites do. For all these nations are defiled, which I am casting out before you. The land is defiled, therefore I visit the punishment of its iniquity upon it, and the land vomits out its inheritance. You shall therefore keep my statutes and my judgments, he says in verse 28, lest the land vomit you out also. when you defile it as it vomited out the nations that were before you. So it makes it very clear. The Canaanites did very wicked things. God made the land vomit them out. He says, Israel, I’m going to put you in there now, but if you do the same wicked things they did, then I’ll make it vomit you out too. In other words, you don’t have some kind of unconditional grant here. If you are keeping my covenant, if you’re obedient to me, if you’re running your lives and your country the way I’m telling you to, then you can stay. But if you don’t, you’ll be out too. And he said something very much like that in Deuteronomy 28, beginning at verse 15. He said, to observe carefully all his commandments and all his statutes, which I command you today, that all these curses will come upon you. And he lists a very long list of curses. And in verse 63, one of those is, in Deuteronomy 28, 63, it shall be that just as the Lord rejoiced over you to do good and multiply you, so the Lord will rejoice over you to destroy you and to bring you to nothing. And you shall be plucked off from the land which you go to possess. So God said if you’re disobedient, you’ll lose the land. You don’t get it unconditionally any more than the Canaanites got it unconditionally. Now, I don’t believe the Israelites are obedient to God right now. They reject Christ, and most of them even reject God. They’re not a religious nation. They’re a secular nation, and many, many, many of them are atheists. probably as many atheists as there are observant Jews. And there’s even, like, a lot fewer Christians than that. So this is not a nation obeying God. And therefore, according to Scripture, there is no promise to them if they’re disobedient. So I don’t see, I mean, I honestly don’t mind there being a nation of Israel as long as they don’t oppress other people. But they do oppress other people. And, you know, you ask if they do have a grant to the land. Do they have a right to do the things they do to the Palestinians, the terrible abuses? Well, no. I mean, God always said to them, do not oppress the stranger in your land. This was back when he was assuming they were being good. This one he’s assuming the land was actually legitimately theirs because they were behaving. He said, make sure you don’t oppress the stranger within your land because you were strangers in Egypt. And so in answer to your question, There was a conditional promise. They did not keep the conditions, and they were driven out of the land. Many of them are back there, but they haven’t changed. So we can’t assume that there’s some kind of divine mandate, contrary to what God said, that they somehow get the land now. And if they did, they should not abuse anybody in it. So they’re very disobedient on almost all counts. Sorry I’m out of time. You’ve been listening to The Narrow Path. Our website is thenarrowpath.com. Thanks for joining us.
