Join us in this insightful episode as Steve Gregg dives into pressing theological discussions with callers from across the nation. We start with an engaging exploration of the theology around the millennium reign of Christ and the associated viewpoints of premillennialism versus covenant theology. This debate raises essential questions about the contradictions and complexities present within eschatological beliefs, provoking thought and deeper understanding.
SPEAKER 09 :
Good afternoon and welcome to the Narrow Path radio broadcast. My name is Steve Gregg and we’re live for an hour each weekday afternoon to take your calls. That’s why we do it live. So you can call in and we can talk about your questions, the questions you have about the Bible or the Christian faith. If you disagree with the host about something, you’re always welcome to call and talk about that. That is about the disagreement. We’ll be glad to talk to you. The number to call is 844-484-5737. That’s 844-484-5737. Some announcements about where I’ll be this coming week. Starting this Sunday, I have a speaking appointment in Petaluma, California. I don’t think I’ve been invited up there before. I’ve been to Petaluma years ago, but it would be good to be back there. But that’s happening this Sunday night. I’ll be in Santa Cruz on next Wednesday, not tomorrow, but the following. Santa Cruz, a meeting at the Pasatiempo Inn that evening. I’ll be in Monterey on Friday, the 20th, and in Morgan Hill on Friday, Saturday the 21st. I’m also speaking for Youth with a Mission. They have a school, a Bible school up in Boulder Creek. That’s, of course, for enrolled students only, so I’m only mostly trying to let you know about the open meetings for everybody. So through most of the week, I’ll be speaking in the Santa Cruz Mountains for Youth with a Mission, but I’m also booked in Petaluma, Santa Cruz, Monterey and Morgan Hill between Sunday and Saturday this coming week. And if you’re in those areas, feel free to join us. The information about each meeting, time and place, can be found at thenarrowpath.com, thenarrowpath.com under announcements. And by the way, there’s maybe a couple evenings still free if you’re in that area and want to book a meeting. get in touch with us quickly so we can get it announced. And that’s all you need to know about that right now. We need to go to the phones and talk to our listeners because the phone lines are full. So we’ll first talk to Chris in Norco, California. Chris, welcome to The Narrow Path. Thanks for calling. Hi, Steve.
SPEAKER 04 :
How are you?
SPEAKER 09 :
Good, thanks.
SPEAKER 04 :
I was able to see your debate with Joel Richardson and You guys were talking about the kingdom, but I wanted to kind of get into a little bit about the question regarding the thousand year millennia. And Mr. Richardson had brought up a point that I think it was kind of unfortunate the way he wanted to connect with the audience, but he had mentioned something about having depression. And if this was all that there was to look forward to, then what do we have to look forward to when Christ returns to raise and whatnot? And those of us that hold to more of a covenant theology position, um, might not necessarily agree with that. But any case, if that would be the point that most people that believe in a pre-tribulation rapture, then a tribulation, and then a literal thousand-year millennium, how do we reconcile the thought that there would be supposed sinners in that thousand-year literal reign when they don’t want to recognize that there is sinners now, what we believe is the kingdom that started when Christ came the first time up through this church age? How would they reconcile those two supposed contradictions?
SPEAKER 09 :
Well, I think your question is a good one for a premillennialist to think about. First, I want to clarify, you know, Joel Richardson, when I debated him, he is premillennial, but he mentioned that he’s quite disappointed if what we have right now is all that Jesus came to bring. And so he’s looking for a millennial reign where everything will be nice. Now, I just want to say, I’m looking for Jesus to make things nice, too, when he comes back. I just don’t look for a millennial reign. I’m looking for new heavens and new earth. So, you know, it’s funny for him to imply if he said, well, if this is all there is, it’s not great. I have two things to say about it. Well, this isn’t all there is. I don’t know of any viewpoint that holds that this is all there is, except maybe full preterism. But then, okay, that’s a false dichotomy there. But also, I was surprised that he said, if this is the millennium, this kind of sucks. Well, I don’t know. I mean, sure, we have hardship. Jesus said, in the world you’ll have tribulation. Be of good cheer. I’ve overcome the world. In me you have peace, he said. So, I mean, I wonder sometimes if people think the millennium, or I should say what Jesus accomplished at his first coming, is inconsequential. I think premillennialists often do treat it as if the first coming of Christ is not impressive. and they’re really excited about the second coming of Christ. Well, I’m excited about the second coming also, but the New Testament has much more to say about the first coming of Christ and what he accomplished, and that Paul had joy unspeakable and full of glory. Well, actually, it’s Peter who said that, but Paul said we have a peace that passes understanding, and both of those men were persecuted and beaten and imprisoned and things like that. So, I mean, I guess we could say life sucks, but what you’re saying, I think, is that He’s saying, well, you know, the problem is we’ve got bad people here, and there’s sinners here, so I’m looking forward to the millennium. But you’re saying, yeah, but according to premillennialism, there’s bad people in the millennium, too, because they’re going to rebel at the end when Satan is loosed again, and they’re going to make a war against the saints. So it’s not as if, you know, well, we’ve got bad people here, but we won’t in the millennium, to the premillennialist.
SPEAKER 04 :
Right.
SPEAKER 09 :
But I will say, what they… Well, it seems contradictory to me, too, because I believe that the Bible indicates that everything will be wrapped up and resolved when Jesus comes back. And what they have is a second coming that doesn’t resolve anything finally. It’s still a thousand years off before everything gets resolved, and it’s not really clear why that thousand years is needed. But what they would say, though, with reference to your objection, is that, well, yeah, there are sinners on the earth during the millennium, but… they are ruled over by Christ with a rod of iron. In other words, they would rebel and will as soon as the devil is released again, but they don’t because Jesus keeps a tight ship. He’s a law and order kind of a ruler kind of a thing. That’s what they’re saying. So they’re saying with Jesus here, he can keep things under control, even the sinners. But to me, it just means that they don’t believe that anything is finally resolved when Jesus comes back Whereas Peter says that when the Lord comes back, the heavens are going to dissolve, the earth is going to melt with a fervent heat, and it’s going to burn up with all its works in it. And he says we’re looking for a new heaven, new earth. Peter didn’t say we’re looking for a millennium. In fact, no one in the Bible mentioned a millennium except for Revelation 20. And the question is, of course, what is that talking about? It’s rather symbolic. I mean, we know it’s symbolic because it starts out with a dragon and a serpent. Well, a dragon and a serpent are not the same thing, and it really represents the devil. That’s a symbol for the devil. He’s not a dragon or a serpent. And he’s bound with a chain. Well, I don’t think you can bind a spirit with a literal chain. I think there’s some imagery here, just as there is through the whole book of Revelation. So, anyway, there’s really not much to support the premillennial view, but the objection you raised is one they anticipate. They say, well, yeah, there’s going to be sinners here the whole time. But they’ll have to behave themselves because Jesus has a rod of iron and he’ll knock them on the head or something if they disobey.
SPEAKER 04 :
Well, but Christ is reigning now at the right hand of the Father. I agree. That does not mean that the world is going to be… following his direction, just like you had mentioned previously in a debate, that a king could have reign over his country, but yet there are still people within the kingdom that are rebelling. So their argument for the literal thousand-year millennium could be used for our position that says he’s reigning now and there are still people rebelling. That’s right. You’re right. Yeah. Yeah, I’m not going to argue that, but we can on that. Yeah, and so I was just wondering how they try to reconcile that. What would be some of the scriptures they might use and what would be some of their thought process on having those two similar aspects, whether it be you believe in the reign of Christ starting when he first came or the reign of Christ starting in a literal millennium.
SPEAKER 09 :
I’ll tell you what their scriptures are. Yeah, the scriptures they use, of course, Revelation 20, which they interpret a certain way, which the church throughout most of history did not interpret that way, and we don’t have to, but they do. So if they interpret it that way, they’re going to have that picture in their head. The other thing, as far as I know, the only other scripture they really use is Isaiah 65. It’s around verse 25. Now, Isaiah 65, 17 says, behold, I make a new heavens and a new earth. So you think it’s describing the new heavens and the new earth, though they say it’s the millennium. And in the circumstances that are described in Isaiah 65, it says, you know, a child shall die at 100 years old, but the wicked being 100 years old shall be accursed. Now, they say, see, there’s wicked people there. This can’t be the new heavens and new earth. It must be the millennium. But see, that’s begging the question. That’s assuming that there is a millennium. No biblical writer prior to Isaiah and none until Revelation ever mentions a millennium. So that is the thousand-year reign. So that being so, they’re assuming a thousand-year reign before the new heavens and new earth. And they’re getting that from almost the last chapter in the Bible. which you can read the whole Bible and never read a thing about it until you get almost to the very end. And what you do have there is so symbolic, it can be understood different ways, and it is. But the point is made that they assume there’s a millennium before the new heavens and earth. So in Isaiah, although it says, behold, I make a new heavens and new earth, when it talks about a child shall die, a wicked man being 100 years old shall be accursed, they say, see, that must be the millennium because people are still dying, they’re still wicked people. I believe it’s symbolic. I simply, myself, I just believe it’s a figurative way of saying people will live forever. They’ll live a long time. You know, if they died at 100 years old, they’d like to be still infants. Not that they will literally die. Of course, that whole Isaiah chapter 65 is entirely, like most of the books of Isaiah, written in poetry. And so you’ve got to figure, okay, how come they’re using this imagery? But to take it literally without thinking that through, is, I think, a mistake. All right, I’ve got to take another call. I appreciate your call. God bless you, brother. All right. Bye-bye. Thank you. Bye now. Okay, we’ll talk to John in Newport Ritchie, Florida. Hi, John. Welcome.
SPEAKER 08 :
Yes, good afternoon. I consider myself to be a Christian. I’ve been baptized, and I go to church, but I feel I do not know Jesus or the Holy Spirit. Can you help me with that, please?
SPEAKER 09 :
Yes. Yeah, maybe. I hope so. Are you attending a church anywhere?
SPEAKER 08 :
Yes.
SPEAKER 09 :
Okay. Have they baptized you in water? You’ve been baptized, you say?
SPEAKER 08 :
Yes.
SPEAKER 09 :
I’m trying to remember all the things you said you did do.
SPEAKER 08 :
Okay.
SPEAKER 09 :
Okay. Well, you know, the Bible says, Jesus said, if you earthly fathers know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to those who ask Him? Now, if you are truly converted, if you’ve been born again, then you do have the Holy Spirit, though it may be that you’re not filled with the Spirit, because the Bible does talk about having the Spirit and being filled with the Spirit as two independent considerations. In Ephesians 1… Paul told the believers, he was writing to them, that they have been sealed with the Holy Spirit. That means that they have the Holy Spirit, and that’s like God’s seal of ownership upon them. It’s like having a wax seal with the signet of the king impressed in it. So you’ve got the seal of the Holy Spirit, which means you’re authentic if you’re born again. But then the same people he’s writing to four chapters later in Ephesians 5.18 says, now you need to be being filled with the Holy Spirit. So they have the Holy Spirit. But he’s not assuming that they’re automatically always filled with the Spirit. That’s something that’s kind of an obligation. You need to walk in the Spirit. You need to, you know, abide in Christ and in his word and in his ways. So, I mean, if you have been genuinely born again, and I can’t say you have or have not. I’m not arguing that you haven’t. I just don’t know. I don’t know you. But if you have been born again, then the Holy Spirit does dwell in you. Now, you might say, I don’t know the Holy Spirit. I don’t know Jesus. I just need to ask, what is it that you would see as the evidence that you know Jesus? What do you think it’s like to know Jesus?
SPEAKER 08 :
I’m not really sure. I hear people say that they’ve heard from Jesus and things like that. I just think that might be the case.
SPEAKER 09 :
Yeah?
SPEAKER 08 :
I feel I’m not in contact with Jesus, and I just feel I don’t know Jesus or the Holy Spirit. I don’t know how else I can put it.
SPEAKER 09 :
Sure. Well, you know, you’re very wise to say, just because I believe in Jesus or know about Jesus doesn’t mean I know him. I think a lot of Christians aren’t wise enough to notice that about themselves. They can tell you all the theology, but to know him, like you know somebody else, and for that to be a real relationship is something they’ve never considered or had. But on the other hand, one may get the impression that knowing Jesus will feel a certain way or will be experienced a certain way because of other people’s testimonies. And I know I did. For example, I was raised in a Baptist church. I’m pretty sure I was saved. I went forward at altar calls when I was young. I preached the gospel to my friends in junior high and high school. And I believed with all my heart everything in the Bible. In fact, I knew a lot of the Bible in those early years. But it wasn’t until I went to, my family moved and we started going to a church where there was a revival going on called the Jesus Movement. And I got baptized in the Spirit there, which is a biblical thing. And it changed my whole experience. But it didn’t change it in all the ways that some other people said it changed them. The reason I became hungry for the baptism of the Holy Spirit is because I met people who were, and they had a lot of zeal and excitement and joy and so forth that I really, I couldn’t really say that was my experience in my Christian life previous to that. And so I expected quite an emotional experience. I even expected I’d speak in tongues because so many of them did. But when I got baptized in the Spirit, I didn’t have a deeply emotional experience, and I didn’t speak in tongues. Now, since that time I have, but And I’ve had many emotional moments and times, but I’m just not as emotional a person as some of them were, I guess. I mean, God is personal, and he deals with each of us individually. And I think our own temperaments will, in some degree, dictate how we experience that. If you have total confidence in Jesus… then I’d say you know him. That is, if you’d say, I’d sooner die than displease him. I’d sooner die than disappoint him. Not because I’m afraid that he’s going to hurt me, but because I love him. I think loving him is really what is transformative. And the Holy Spirit, the fruit of the Spirit, is love. So, you know, if you love people and if you love God, that’s the best evidence that you really do know Jesus, even if your experience is not similar in some ways to what other people say theirs is. You never know. Yours might be more normative than theirs, or theirs might be more normative than yours. But the point is, it’s going to be different. You’re a different person. So I’m thinking that, have you been to our website, thenarrowpath.com? No, I haven’t. Okay. I’d like to recommend there our lectures. There’s a lot of them, like 1,500 of them. They’re all free. Everything’s free, so you don’t have to invest. You don’t even have to sign up. You don’t have to give us your email. We’ll never know you came or went. But the idea is that there’s a lot of very practical teaching there. For example, there’s a series called How can I know if I’m really saved? Or how do I know that I’m really saved? It’s only four lectures, but I think that could be helpful to you. There’s another series called Charisma and Character, which is about the normative experience of the Holy Spirit in the life of the Christian. It’s about the fruit of the Spirit and the gifts of the Spirit. There’s a series called Authority of Scripture, which I think could definitely build your faith. There’s a lot of resources, and they are free. And I just would like to encourage you. to go to thenarrowpath.com because my lectures are basically designed to help people deepen their walk with God. And I think the more you walk with Christ, the more you really know him. And so I’m not going to say that you don’t know Jesus. Like you said, I mean, I can’t tell you that you do or don’t. But it’s very possible that you actually know him at the level that you are prepared to know him in this moment, that you have come to know him but haven’t gotten very deep in your walk with him. I think that everybody can get closer to Jesus if they’re a Christian or not. If they’re not a Christian, I think they need to get close enough to actually become Christians. And if they are Christians, I think they can get deeper in their knowledge of him, too. And so I would like you to use our lectures for that.
SPEAKER 08 :
Yes. Okay, I’ll do that. When I pray, I ask Jesus to come into my life, and I guess I feel I should know something.
SPEAKER 09 :
Right. Let me ask you this. When you came to Christ, would you say that you repented of your past life?
SPEAKER 08 :
Yes, I think so.
SPEAKER 09 :
Okay, that’s good. So I believe that your belief in him and your repentance… And you were baptized, so it looks like you’ve taken every step that a person can take. I realize that people can do all those things and still have a minimalist walk with God, although that’s not desirable. But I think that if you listen to those lectures, I think you could get addicted to them. But there’s a book I wrote, and the audio book is free at the website. You can buy the book if you want to, but I don’t sell it. You’ll have to buy it from Amazon. But the audio book is free at the website if you go to thenarrowpath.com and click on the tab that says Books. You’ll see all of my books there. And the one I’m talking about is called Empire of the Risen Son. It’s about the kingdom of God. It’s about being a Christian. And just listen to it. I mean, you could buy the book if you want to and read it. I don’t sell books, so I don’t care if you buy it or not. But the point is that there’s actually two books, book one and book two, and they’re both free to listen to at thenarrowpath.com. Now, I mean, I could talk to you all day, and I would enjoy doing so, but I have a lot of people waiting. But the best I can do for you in giving you short shrift and hoping to be helpful to you over the long term is to start using those resources. I think it will really help you.
SPEAKER 08 :
Yes. Okay. I do appreciate your help. Thank you very much.
SPEAKER 09 :
All right. God bless you. Thank you. All right. And also, you know, to get to know Jesus, I would strongly recommend reading the Gospels a lot. And also, at our website, of course, I have my verse-by-verse commentary on the whole Bible, audio commentary. And that’s free also. So, I mean, if you want to go through the book of John, the book of Matthew, any book of the Bible, actually, but I would strongly suggest you do go through Matthew or John or one of these books where you get a good picture of Jesus. I think getting a better picture of him from the scripture is a key to knowing him better. in my opinion. So anyway, I hope those things are helpful to you, brother. I’m glad you called, and I hope you can benefit from those things. Gordon in Rockland, California. Welcome to The Narrow Path.
SPEAKER 06 :
Hi. My question has to do with a bit of biblical history. In the Bible study group I’m in, we’re in the latter part of Genesis, the story of Joseph in Egypt. But in Chapter 38, it breaks away from Joseph’s story and has a story about… Yeah, about Judah getting a wife and having kids, right? Yeah, and all of their misadventures. And it seems like that story covers… a lot longer time than just the time between where Joseph’s story breaks off in 37 and the time it picks up again in 39. So I’m trying to figure out how the timeline of Judah’s story lines up with the timeline of Joseph’s story. Can you enlighten me on that?
SPEAKER 09 :
I hope so. I hope so. Genesis 37 ends, the last verse, has Joseph sold into slavery. by merchants who take him to Egypt and sell him to be a slave in the house of Potiphar. Then there’s chapter 8, and then in chapter 9, verse 1, Joseph arrives in Egypt, and he’s sold to Potiphar. In other words, obviously, chapter 39, verse 1, resumes where chapter 37 left off, meaning that chapter 38 seems to be parenthetical. Certainly all the things in chapter 38 didn’t happen during the brief journey from the pit where Joseph was sold by his brothers until the time he got into Egypt. That would have been probably only a few days. And there’s years recorded in 38. So I think we have to understand chapter 38 as a parenthesis. Exactly where it fits in is not 100% certain, but it does say that at the beginning that Judah separated himself from his other brothers. There’s a possibility that he did this because he was disgusted with them selling Joseph. We know that Judah had Judah and Reuben were two of the brothers who had somewhat more sympathy for Joseph when the other brothers wanted to kill him or sell him. And Reuben in particular seemed to be on Joseph’s side. And Judah begins to shine a little bit later on in the story as the one who kind of is the spiritual leader of the brothers. And it may be that Judah just kind of in his heart didn’t want to be around those kind of guys anymore. And it says he went off to another place and he got a wife and had three sons and so forth. And so it’s possible that the story actually does occur after Joseph is sold in chapter 37. But, of course, it would be happening alongside Joseph’s stay in Jerusalem. Egypt, which begins to be recorded in chapter 39. So it’s kind of a parenthetical thing. Now, the time in Egypt that Joseph was there was, what, 15 years before he saw his brothers again? It’s hard to know that all those things in chapter 38 happened at that time. Unless, of course, Joseph’s sons were getting married at 12 years old or something like that. And that’s not an impossibility. We don’t know how much time it took. because the number of years transpiring there doesn’t know. But it’s possible that it all happened during Joseph’s imprisonment in Egypt. It’s also possible that the story began earlier, before Joseph was sold. So I’m not really sure. No one really knows for sure, but those are some suggestions. All right, you’re listening to The Narrow Path. We have to take a break here, and we will be back in about 30 seconds, so don’t go away. We are listener-supported. Our website is thenarrowpath.com. I’ll be back in 30 seconds, stay tuned
SPEAKER 01 :
As you know, the Narrow Path radio show is Bible radio that has nothing to sell you but everything to give you. So do the right thing and share what you know with your family and friends. Tell them to tune in to the Narrow Path on this radio station or go to thenarrowpath.com where they will find topical audio teachings, blog articles, verse-by-verse teachings, and archives of all the radio shows. You know listeners supported Narrow Path with Steve Gregg? Share what you know.
SPEAKER 09 :
Welcome back to the Narrow Path radio broadcast. My name is Steve Gregg, and we are taking your calls for another half hour, as we do for a full hour every weekday. and have been doing so since 1997. If you do the math, that’s been 29 years daily doing this program. And our website, thenarrowpath.com, has archives of radio programs going back many years, not to the very beginning. We don’t have all the recordings of the shows going back almost 30 years, but we have a lot of years there, a lot you can listen to there. Everything’s free at the website, so help yourself. Thenarrowpath.com is the website. And we’ve got callers, but we have a couple lines open if you want to call. The number is 844-484-5737. That’s 844-484-5737. So our next caller is John from Salyersville. Now, John, you pronounce it for Kentucky. How do you pronounce that city again? John, are you there? Oh, John has called a few times. He’s on my line right now, but I’m not hearing him. John, is your phone muted by accident? Oh, he just hung up. Okay. I guess he didn’t want to tell me how to pronounce the town, so he hung up. We’ll hear from you again, John. I’m sure we have several times before. Let’s talk to Jim in Palmer, Texas next. Jim, welcome.
SPEAKER 07 :
Hi, Steve. How are you doing? I really appreciate your ministry and the Exegesis that you had given that fellow that didn’t know if he knew Jesus. That was fantastic. Thank you. My question has to do with Luke 22, verse 16, where Jesus is talking with the disciples, and he’s talking about the Passover. My question has to do with verse 16, where he says, For I say to you, I will no longer eat of it until it is fulfilled in the kingdom of God. Now, I understand the first, until it is fulfilled. What’s he talking about?
SPEAKER 09 :
Yeah. Well, he says something like that. The wording is a little different in some of the different Gospels, but it’s very similar. In some of the Gospels, he says, I will not anymore drink of the fruit of the vine until we drink it together in the kingdom of God. But this is a little bit different. Although it’s probably the same statement paraphrased in Luke. Luke sometimes paraphrases things that are somewhat differently worded from Jesus in Matthew or Mark. Now, it is a reference to the Passover, it would appear. Because in verse 15, he said to them, with fervent desire, I have desired to eat this Passover with you before I suffer. For I say to you, I will no longer eat it, eat of it, that is the Passover, until it, the Passover, is fulfilled in the kingdom of God. Now, I believe that Jesus’ death and resurrection and certainly the ascension of Christ to the right hand of God where he sits reigning, I believe this is the coming of the kingdom to which he alludes. And he said, I won’t eat the Passover with you again until we’re in the kingdom. until it is fulfilled, he says. Now, what I think the meaning of this is, is that, you know, you guys and I have had Passover every year together. Before we knew each other, you had it every year with your families. Passover has been a regular part of your life every year. But before the next one comes, we’ll be in the kingdom. meaning the kingdom will have been, you know, have come. Jesus will be seated at the right hand of God, ruling over his enemies and over the world, as he said after he rose from the dead, that all authority in heaven and earth is given to him. And the Bible says in Ephesians 1 that God set him at his right hand, and all the principalities and powers and rulers are subject to him, it says. So Christ is ruling. Now, you know, and that happened. That happened in less than a year from the time he said this. So when he said, we won’t eat this Passover again until it’s fulfilled, I think the subtext there is that, you know, our people, Israel, have been eating this Passover for 1,400 years since the time of Moses. Every year we take this Passover. But also every year we’ve been looking forward to the kingdom coming. And guess what? This is the last Passover we’ll be eating before the kingdom comes, which simply puts an indecency upon us saying, you know, this is going to be in less than a year. And it was. It was only about a month and a half. So that’s what I think he’s talking about there. All right? Oops. It is filled.
SPEAKER 07 :
Jesus is the Passover.
SPEAKER 09 :
Yes, it says that in 1 Corinthians 5-7. Christ, our Passover, has been sacrificed for us.
SPEAKER 07 :
Okay. Well, thank you for everything. Appreciate your ministry. Thanks. Okay, Jim. Good talking to you, man.
SPEAKER 09 :
All right. Let’s talk next to, it’s going to be Jimmy in Staten Island, New York. We hear from Jimmy a lot. Hi, Jimmy. Hi, Steve. How are you doing?
SPEAKER 05 :
A woman called last night about the wrath of God being poured out on her son. I don’t know if you looked at it, but when Jesus was in the garden, he prayed three times for the cup to be taken from him. And Mark Tennant says, and they said unto him, we can, Jesus said unto them, you shall indeed drink of the cup that I drink of. And with the baptism, no, that’s the wrong one. He said, you know not what you ask, can you drink of the cup that I drink of? and be baptized with the baptism. And in Revelation 14.10, it says, The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation, and should be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and the presence of the Lamb. And I think in the Old Testament it talks about drinking the dregs of the cup.
SPEAKER 09 :
I hear you.
SPEAKER 05 :
But I just want to go off of that.
SPEAKER 09 :
You’re right. You’re right. There is the imagery. It goes back, I think, to Psalm 75. if I’m not mistaken, where it says that there’s a cup in the hand of the Lord and the wine is red and the wicked will drink of it down to the dregs and so forth. If I’m not mistaken, it might be Psalm 75 or it might be Psalm 78. But, yeah, that imagery is there. And then, of course, in Jeremiah, Jeremiah has a cup is handed to him by God and says, you go to the nations and make them drink this cup. and they’ll stagger, and they’ll be drunken, and they’ll fall, and so forth. The cup, obviously, is the cup of judgment, or one could say the cup of wrath. And, you know, when God told Abram that his people would be 400 years in a land that’s not their own, but they would come back and take the land from the Canaanites, God said, because the iniquity of the Canaanites is not yet full. as if they had a cup that wasn’t filled yet. This imagery seems to be, and I don’t think it’s literal, but I think it’s helpful, that it’s like God is assessing nations, and as they do evil, each one, their cup is filling up with the iniquity. And once it is full, yeah, yeah, yeah, and once it is, what, I’m sorry, go ahead.
SPEAKER 05 :
No, go ahead.
SPEAKER 09 :
Okay. And once the cup is full, it’s poured out on them in wrath. So that in Revelation 14, it says that he that worships the beast and takes the mark, you know, so forth on his forehead, it says we’ll drink of the cup of the wrath of God, which is poured out unmixed full measure into the cup of his indignation and so forth. So again, drinking the cup seems to be experiencing judgment, uh, In fact, Jesus probably was alluding to that image when he told the Jews in Matthew 23 that their fathers had killed the prophets. And everyone that sent to him, he says, now you’re going to fill up the measure of your father’s sins. Like, okay, the Jews have been filling up with their iniquities this cup, and by killing Jesus and pursuing his apostles, as Jesus predicts in that passage, they’re going to fill up the measure so that the judgment will be poured out on them, as it was in 70 A.D. So, I think you’re right about that image, and a lot of Christians have not really taken stock of that, as they probably should. Now, when Jesus said, Father, if it is your will, let this cup not be, let it pass from me. You know, he didn’t want to drink the cup. We could say that it’s the wrath of God that he was being required to receive in drinking that cup. And when Peter tried to save Jesus from his death, Jesus said, Peter, put away your sword, the cup that the Father has given me, shall I not drink it? Now, if we identify that cup as the wrath of God, then that would be an exception to what I said yesterday when I said I don’t know of any passage that says that the wrath of God came on Jesus using that terminology. But if the cup is equivalent to it, then we do have the wrath of God coming on Christ. Now, I will say that’s a big yes, because the cup could simply mean the sufferings that come because of sin. Not that God’s necessarily so much angry, but he’s got to settle the score. He’s got to empty the cup. And Jesus received it emptied into himself. But that might not mean that God was angry at him. I don’t know. Now, when Jesus said to the disciples, can you drink the cup that I’m going to drink of? It’s interesting that he suggested they will. you will drink of the cup and be baptized with baptism. I’m baptized with, but to sit at my right hand and my left hand is not mine to give. That’s my father’s choice, he said. So what does it mean that they will drink of the cup? Are they going to take the wrath of God on themselves too? I don’t think so, because by being followers of Christ, they escape wrath, as we do. But they did suffer persecution. So it’s possible that the cup that Jesus speaks about isn’t necessarily the wrath of God per se, that God’s angry, but rather that there’s suffering that comes upon them. Jesus had to accept suffering as a result of sin, you know, the sins of the world, not his sins. The apostles likewise had to face the anger of the world. It may be that the cup really is the wrath of the devil, which God holds back from being poured out until a certain point. And it’s not that God’s angry, but the devil, you know, there is such a thing as the wrath of man and no doubt the wrath of Satan, too. You mentioned something in Revelation. In Revelation 11, it says that when Satan is cast out of heaven, Revelation 11, it says, you know, woe to the inhabitants of the earth for the devil is cast down and he has great wrath because he knows his time is short. So… There is some ambiguity as to whether the cup refers to God’s specific wrath or simply the suffering that comes as a consequence of the world’s sins or whether it’s the devil’s wrath. I’m going to just say that’s an uncertain point for me, but I hear what you’re saying, and it sounds like it may say that the wrath of God was taken on Christ. So I appreciate you sharing that. That verse you were looking for with 75-8. Thank you, 75-8. Okay, good. That’s why I couldn’t remember if it was 75-8 or 78-5. It’s been a long time since I looked at it.
SPEAKER 05 :
And also suffering wrath, it says in Romans 6-6, knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him. We were buried with him in baptism, and we were raised with him vicariously. I don’t know if it’s vicariously or actually, but there’s language that says we experienced these things with him, but we didn’t feel what he felt. Something to think about. All right. Thank you, Jimmy. Have a blessed night.
SPEAKER 09 :
Great talking to you. God bless. All right. Let’s talk to Ben from San Diego, California. Hi, Ben. Welcome.
SPEAKER 02 :
Hey, thanks for taking my call. Yeah, I have a quick question. Well, it’s more of a hypothetical. So Acts 15, I’m wondering if you’re understanding this. Acts 15 is the model for how theological disputes in the church should be resolved? And B, if you were authorized to convene an Acts 15 council for that purpose, how would you bring together all Trinitarian Christians of goodwill despite denomination? I’ll just take my answer offline.
SPEAKER 09 :
All right, thanks for your call. Well, I think that Acts 15 does give us a great normative way for theological issues to be resolved that are controversial, and that is get the apostles together. Now, my problem is I don’t know that we have them here now. I know the original apostles were at this meeting, maybe not all of them, but a significant number. Peter was, and then, of course, Paul and James were later apostles. By this time, they were apostles, but they were not part of the Twelve. But it does say the gathering was of the elders of the church in Jerusalem and of the apostles. So some of the apostles were there, maybe all of them, for all we know. And they hashed it out. And what they decided on, they said, it seemed good to the Holy Spirit and to us that this is the way we should resolve this. So they felt that through their deliberations and through their hearing testimony and weighing things and no doubt praying about them and probably debating a lot more than is recorded there, they felt the Holy Spirit brought about resolution and what they could send off to God. The Gentile churches seemed good to the Holy Spirit and to them. That would be great. Now, one of the problems is we don’t have anyone in the church today that has the authority of those apostles. There are people today who believe that we have apostles today. And I’m not going to dispute it because there’s more than one kind of apostle in the Bible. Paul refers to his traveling companions as apostles of the churches in 2 Corinthians 8, which means they’re sent out by the churches. he would never call himself an apostle of the churches. He was an apostle of Christ. Apostle means one who’s sent out, like a delegate, like an official representative. And so Paul always referred to himself as an apostle of Christ. So did Peter. So would all the apostles, the original apostles. But their companions in ministry were sometimes called apostles of the churches. That is, they weren’t sent out by Christ personally, but they were sent out by the churches. And that’s not chopped liver there, you know, it’s something. But the thing is that we may have apostles of the churches today. We don’t have the apostles of Christ as near as I can tell. But it is the apostles of Christ who have the authority to write the scriptures. It is the apostles of Christ that would have the authority to decide these things and all other Christians be obliged to go along with it. And those apostles aren’t here. They’re the ones who are sitting on 12 thrones judging the 12 houses of Israel. They’re the ones who are the foundation stones of the New Jerusalem. There’s only 12 of them. But there are other people who speak with, let’s just say, through the Holy Spirit. One of the problems we have here is that Leadership in a church or even in a religious organization or in a denomination does not necessarily mean that a person has real spiritual authority. That is, that the spirit has raised him up and honors him. There are certainly lots of religious organizations and churches whose pastors and denomination leaders have so strayed from the gospel that it’s arguable they may not even be saved. much less authorities of spiritual authority. So, you know, what do we do? Well, I’m a typical Protestant in this respect, I guess. Catholics and Orthodox people would not agree with this. I think we just go by the Bible. And someone says, yeah, but all Protestants do that and they don’t agree about things. Well, then what do we do? we find the things that all people do agree about who are reading the Bible. All who believe in the Bible have a number of things that everyone in that category believes in. Jesus is the Son of God. Jesus is the Messiah. Jesus is Lord. People must believe. They must repent. They must be baptized. These are things that are not ambiguous in Scripture, although I have to say there are some groups that have gotten so far off they’ve been denied some of those things. But the truth is, These things are not the kinds of things that early Christians would dispute because they’re, in a sense, if you’re a Christian, those things are a given. But there’s lots of other things to dispute, but none of them are essential. Now, I’m not saying because they’re unessential, we shouldn’t try to figure them out. I’d like to figure everything out. I’m not really happy. I should say I’m not totally content or satisfied with what I know now. I have to be content. I know as much as I can right now because I’ve devoted my whole life to meditation on the scriptures and study and so forth, and I don’t know everything, but I’m not sure what more I could have done to get to know it. But, see, I believe that growing in knowledge of Christ, growing in grace in the knowledge of Jesus Christ, as Peter talks about in 2 Peter 3.18, that’s a progressive thing. I think we need to be lifelong learners. We need to start with the foundation of Christ. He is the Son of God. Now, I believe he’s God. Not all the early Christians did until, you know, even a century after Nicaea. Not all the Christians in the world believed he was God, but that came to be the standard accepted view, and I accept it. I believe Jesus is God. But the Bible doesn’t say you have to believe Jesus is God. It says you have to believe he’s the Son of God, that he’s God. the Messiah, that he is the Lord. And you have to surrender to him and repent of your sins and become one of his loyalists in his kingdom. He’s the king. That being so, I believe once we have those things under our belt, which is basically the gospel, and all true Christians, I think, believe those things, then we can discuss other things that aren’t essential for salvation. Let’s talk about eschatology. Let’s talk about soteriology. Let’s talk about some of these other fields of discussion. And we can learn. And that’s one of the great things about being a lifetime learner. You never have to get bored with the amount of things you already know because there’s so much more to know. There’s so much more to learn. Some people say, well, I think we’ll know everything when we go to heaven. I hope not. Because then I wouldn’t have anything more to learn. And there’s hardly anything more exhilarating, at least in this life, than learning from God. Learning about God. Learning, understanding things that I didn’t understand before. I love learning. I love being corrected. People who love truth, you know, that’s kind of their attitude. So, you know, I don’t think we all have to settle everything. Now, in Acts 15, they did have to settle the Gospels. The gospel was being challenged. That’s what Paul said in Galatians 2. He said the people who were the circumcision party were challenging the very gospel itself. He said he wouldn’t give them room for one hour lest the integrity of the gospel be compromised. What was at stake at that council was up till that point, or not to that point, but up till fairly late before that point, all the Christians had been Jewish. And Jewish people are circumcised at infancy, so all Christians were circumcised. And the question was, now that we’ve become Christians, our Judaism has reached its fullness. But what about these Gentiles? Gentiles were starting to get saved in large numbers, but they weren’t circumcised. And so the question was, do they have to become Jews, like proselytes? Do they have to get circumcised so they can be full-on Christians? Or do they not? Now, Paul and Barnabas thought they don’t. The apostles in Jerusalem hadn’t really thought much about it because their whole church was Jewish. The apostles in Jerusalem were not dealing with Gentile converts. So this had to be officially decided because some of the Christians in Jerusalem were following Paul around and telling his converts they had to be circumcised. And Paul said, no, you don’t. And the question was here. Is Christianity just another branch, maybe another step forward of Judaism, or is it something altogether new? And, of course, Paul said if anyone’s in Christ, he’s a new creation. Old things have passed away. All things have become new. Christianity is not just an improvement on Judaism. It’s not just the final brick on the wall of Judaism. It’s entirely new. It’s a new creation. God has made in himself one new man from Jews and Gentiles into a new man. And therefore, that’s what was at stake, is the gospel simply calling Gentiles to be Jews and to be Messianic Jews, like the Jewish believers were. Or is it calling them to something that’s unrelated to Judaism, something quite independent from it, so that they can ignore circumcision and the 613 laws of Judaism? That’s what they’re deciding, a big issue. That was decided for us by them. But there were still issues that had never been hashed out. and were undecided. And Paul, for example, in Romans 14, mentioned that in the Church of Rome, some Christians still were avoiding unclean foods, and even eating only vegetables, so that they could avoid it really. Others would eat everything. Some people would keep a day holy, probably the Jewish Christians, and others, no doubt the Gentiles, kept every day alive. Now, in other words, there were some… The issue of whether they had to become Jewish or not had been settled before this, but How much of the Jewish way of life had to be followed? The Jewish Christians wanted to follow more of it than the Gentile Christians did. And Paul just said, let everyone be fully persuaded in his own mind. I could tell you the right answer, but I’m not going to. Just learn to love each other. Just give liberty to each other. In another place, 2 Corinthians 3.17, Paul said, where the Spirit of the Lord is, there’s liberty. You want to keep the Sabbath? Do. Someone doesn’t want to? They don’t have to. They can keep every day alike. You want to eat kosher diet? Go right ahead. You don’t want to? You don’t have to. In other words, Christians disagreed about some of these things. And Paul said, listen, these are not hills to die on. Just love each other and give each other liberty. That’s more in keeping with the whole what Christ is about than enumerating rules to be followed is. All right, let’s talk to Andy in San Diego, California. Andy, welcome.
SPEAKER 03 :
Hey, Steve.
SPEAKER 09 :
Hey.
SPEAKER 03 :
Thanks for taking my call. Real quick, because I know we don’t have a lot of time. I grew up in a Word of Faith church in Hawaii, and I, in conjunction with Matthew 18, 8, and I think it’s 15, 19, they’d always pray they would bind the spirit of alcoholism and, you know, pornography and gambling. And one, how did they get to that? Why wouldn’t they bind the spirit of Satan? And what is the real interpretation of those two binding, you know, scriptures?
SPEAKER 09 :
All right. Yeah, I’m not saying there’s never a place for binding demons. There probably is. But these verses, which is the verses they usually base it on, are not really about that, in my opinion. Matthew 18 and Matthew 16 both are referring to whatsoever you bind on earth shall have been bound in heaven. Whatever you loose on earth shall have been loosed in heaven. Now, that’s how it reads in the Greek. The King James says whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven. What have you loosed on earth will be loosed in heaven, which makes it sound like you do the binding and the loosing and heaven will back you up. But actually in the Greek it says, what have you bind on earth shall have been bound in heaven. So you’re binding on earth the things that are already bound in heaven. You’re loosing on earth the things that are already loosed in heaven. Who is? The apostles. Both statements were made to the apostles when they were alone with Christ. Both of them actually are in the only two passages in Matthew that mention the church. Actually, the only two passages in any of the gospels that mention the church. You know, one is in Matthew 16 says, I’ll give you the keys to the kingdom. You know, and he tells Peter. And he says, upon this rock I’ll build my church. In chapter 18, he says, if they won’t hear these witnesses, tell it to the church. The only two times the church is even mentioned in the Gospels is in these two passages. And the apostles are apparently given special authority in the church. And he’s saying, whatever you bind on earth will have been bound in heaven. What I think he’s saying is, you have the authority to bind on earth what God has bound in heaven. You’re enforcing heaven’s decrees here in the church. Binding and loosing was a rabbinic term. It referred to whether a rabbi permitted a certain action or didn’t permit a certain action. And rabbis didn’t agree with each other about all that. But he’s saying, yeah, you Jewish people, you Jewish disciples, the rabbis have always been binding and loosing stuff. You apostles are not going to do the binding and loosing. You’re the ones who are going to be teaching the church what’s permitted, what’s not permitted. You’re going to be guiding the church in its walk with Christ. And what you say on earth… has got to align with what God says in heaven, but you will be. God will allow that, will make sure of that, so that the apostles’ authority, more than the rabbis’, would be heavenly in terms of what they said and what they forbade. Hey, I’m out of time. I wish I could go further on this, but we’re out of time. You’re listening to The Narrow Path. Our website is thenarrowpath.com. Have a good day. Let’s talk again tomorrow. God bless.
