Join us on Real Science Radio as we delve into the intersection of faith and science with Dr. Aaron Shoulders, author and passionate biochemist. Dr. Shoulders discusses the evidence he sees for intelligent design within the structures of DNA and proteins, challenging the prevailing narrative that random chance processes alone account for the complexity of life. Discover how Dr. Shoulders navigates his role as a staunch creationist in the secular academic environment of Colorado State University, maintaining his convictions without compromising his academic duties.
00:00:00 Intelligent Design and Language in the Cell
We don’t question if I come into a room and I see a piece of paper with text all over it that is, you know, a paragraph from like, say, Shakespeare or something like that. No one contests whether that came from an intelligent mind. We just assume that it did because we know. We know how language produces or it comes from an intelligent mind. Well, that’s what we find in the cell.
SPEAKER 04 :
Intelligent design and DNA Scholars can’t explain it all away Get ready to be awed By the handiwork of God Tune in to Real Science Radio Turn up the Real Science Radio Keepin’ it real
SPEAKER 05 :
Greetings to the brightest audience in the country. Welcome to Real Science Radio. I’m Fred Williams.
SPEAKER 02 :
And I’m Doug McBurney, Bible student, science geek. Fred, it is great to be back with you talking about real science right here on Friday. And this week we have with us Dr. Aaron Shoulders. He’s the author of Principles of Biochemistry. He’s been a follower of his Savior, Jesus Christ, since high school. And he’s deeply convicted that science and his faith are complementary rather than in conflict. Fred, in his discipline, biochemistry, he sees a great deal of evidence for the existence of a transcendent designer of all reality. Oh, I like that line. I got to take that line. a transcendent designer of all reality. Now, he got his bachelor’s in chemistry, then a master’s in biochemistry, and then just to satisfy his obvious interest in biochemistry, he went ahead and got a PhD in biochemistry from Colorado State University, where he is a professor. And Dr. Shoulders’ research is directed at the development of learning outcomes assessments, Fred. Dr. Shoulders, welcome to Real Science Radio.
SPEAKER 03 :
Well, thank you both. It’s very nice to meet you both and be on your show.
SPEAKER 02 :
Yes, yes. Now, real quick, before we get started, learning outcomes assessments. That sounds like the assessment of the outcome of a student’s learning, which if there are parents out there who are considering sending their kids to college, I think they would be happy to hear that that’s still a thing, that they assess the outcome. Can you tell us a little bit about that?
SPEAKER 03 :
Yeah, so the learning outcomes assessment is, I mean, it’s exactly what you said it was. So as a professor and as someone that teaches students, large amounts of students, teaching is pretty hard to do. So I have always been, especially as a scientist, a little bit uncomfortable with how I know that my students are learning what I hope that they’re learning. And if I’m going to change something, for instance, in a classroom, which takes a lot of effort, is that going to help my students or is that going to hinder my students? So I wanted to develop then some way to and my colleagues wanted to develop some way to assess our students learning. And so it turns out, I mean, we try and do that, of course, with exams and quizzes and assignments. And certainly those are. very important in the assessment of a student learning but they can also just be simply learning tools for students so the learning outcome assessment is something that there’s actually some protocols to develop i won’t get too deep into to the research but there’s there’s protocols to develop um different types of assessments And so we developed this protocol to give the tools to a fairly large audience or not large audience, but a larger group of researchers and teachers to develop an assessment that would take a relatively short amount of time, about three semesters to develop it. And the key is. with the development of these types of assessments is to ensure that your students are actually understanding the question and then answering based off of their knowledge for that question. So a lot of the development of the assessment goes into finding out what’s in students’ minds, how are they interpreting the question, and then answering that question based off of that so that you can actually measure response to the actual question rather than a misunderstanding of the question.
SPEAKER 02 :
Okay. Hey, I need one of those in my Bible study for my students. There you go. That sounds like a great idea.
SPEAKER 05 :
So, Dr. Shoulders, what’s the name of your courses that you teach at Colorado State?
SPEAKER 03 :
So, I teach a number of courses. One of them is a principles of biochemistry course. So Doug mentioned that I wrote an author of a principles of biochemistry. It’s actually textbooks and online textbooks. So that’s a large course. There are about 250 students a semester take that. And I’ll teach that a number of times throughout the semester. And then I teach essentially a course on metabolism. So it incorporates biochemistry too. And then I teach a senior seminar. I’ve taught labs before as well. But those are the courses I’m teaching right now.
SPEAKER 05 :
So you’re willing to come on to shows like ours. You and I met at the Rocky Mountain Creation Fellowship, and you gave a really great talk about Genesis. So I got to ask, how does that fly with you being in the secular university environment? How do you keep your job?
SPEAKER 03 :
You know, I think that at least at Colorado State University, I found a lot of favor there. So I do a really good job. So in terms of my job description, and that is teaching and educating students. So certainly there’s disagreement with the way I conduct my life and the things that are rattling around in my brain, so to speak. But for the most part, I have had a lot of actually respect and freedom from the colleagues that I have. Not that they don’t disagree, but they have respected me from that standpoint. So I’ve been blessed from that standpoint. Lots of students have complained that the university has called me into several offices and told me that they have a file of me. But they’ve never risen to the level of saying you’re going to lose your job if you don’t stop doing this.
SPEAKER 05 :
Well, it’s encouraging that there are some professors such as yourself who you know teaching at the major universities i i met somebody now this is totally anecdotal but at flat irons church it was a friend of a friend and she’s a professor at csu and one of the sciences and i want to say it’s in the same area you know molecular biology but i don’t remember distinctly and i don’t remember her name but she was a creationist it was encouraging to hear that you know both my kids went to colorado state to get their computer science degree and You know, they were brought up, you know, with the belief in, you know, biblical creation. And they were actually surprised how few people actually believe or ever heard that there’s anybody that would question evolution. You know, Ryan had mentioned one time he was in a class with… You know, one of those big classrooms, you know, the ones I think with, I don’t know, maybe 200 students. I don’t know how many big those classrooms hold, the big auditorium ones. And the teacher asked, and it was actually political science, and he asked, does anybody here question global warming? And Ryan and his friend were the only two that kind of both looked at each other. They both raised their hands. And so then the professor asked them, you know, why? And, you know, and they give a good answer more along the lines of, you know, there’s a lot more we need to learn and this and that. And they felt like the professor was kind of more on their side, actually. And this is a political science course. Over the course of the, you know, that course that year, they felt like, yeah, he’s actually, or that semester, they felt like he was probably on their side. But anyway, so, you know, it’s great to hear that, you know, you do have the freedom to teach these kids. And I know you’re probably not teaching a creation class, but at least the fact that, you know, it’s known that you’re a creationist and you’re able to, you know, do what you do there and interact with them. I think that’s awesome.
SPEAKER 03 :
I mean, from a standpoint of students, there’s definitely students that complain about, because every semester I introduce myself as a Christian and I explain what that means in terms of the gospel and the plan of salvation. And so there’s lots of students that complain about that, but I have probably more students, at least they interact with me that come and say, man, that was so encouraging. Thank you so much for doing that. So, and again, like I said, I mean, I had the freedom to do it. And at CSU, I think that if I were to start to teach intelligent design and teach creation in my biochemistry courses, then that might bring a little bit more thunder. Yeah. So.
SPEAKER 02 :
Yeah. Yeah. And so on that note, Just what you just said, how is it that you maintain relative academic freedom and a job in the secular university world, that really matches things Fred and I have heard from other Bible-believing creationists. who’ve maintained careers in the secular companies that you would think are kind of left-wing because of some of the crazy left-wing weirdness that they do. But these Christian creationist Bible believers maintain a position there because they do what you said you do, which is do a good job, which that’s hard to replace. And that’s something that Paul gave us advice on in his letters. He said to work with your hands and do a good job so that those who are without, those who are outside the body, have nothing bad to say about you. And so just a note for all the young folks watching, some encouragement from you, Dr. Shoulders, that you can maintain a career and be successful and have a positive influence on people both for their career and for the Lord, but you got to work hard and do a good job.
SPEAKER 03 :
Yeah, exactly. And I think that that’s part of being an ambassador for our Savior is to do everything as a fund to Him. And I mean, that’s exactly what Paul encourages us to do, that whatever your hand finds to do, do it as unto the Lord, not for men. And that’s the approach that I’ve taken. My students, even the ones that have complained about me for the most part, appreciate at the minimum, the job that I do and the care that I have for them as people. You know, that’s something that a lot of my students have recognized is that, you know, Dr. Shoulders really cares for his students and their success, which is true. And that’s true of all my students. And that’s consistent, of course, with my savior.
SPEAKER 02 :
Yeah. Amen. Good stuff. So I went and checked you out on RateMyProfessor.com. You already mentioned that you introduce yourself as a Christian to the class. According to one of the students who ranked you, you mentioned God on the first day of class. Is that right?
SPEAKER 03 :
Yeah, so that’s exactly right. So one of the things I do right at the very beginning of the class is I introduce myself, and I introduce myself as a Christian, a follower of Jesus Christ, and I say that I’m deeply convicted of the central tenets of our faith, and that is that God exists, and He created, and that He created in perfection, but mankind rebelled against Him and brought about the totality of human and animal suffering, and that God being a loving God has a plan to save us. And the cornerstone of that plan is in His Son, Jesus Christ, who came, who Died on the cross, rose from the dead, is coming back to set everything right. And then I say, and I believe those things for deeply personal reasons, but I also see evidence for them in history and in philosophy and in theology and even in sciences.
SPEAKER 02 :
Amen. So do you ever get like a giant amen from like the back of the room? That’s great.
SPEAKER 03 :
I’ve never gotten a giant amen. I’ll be honest with you. It’s probably the most uncomfortable. Every semester is probably the most uncomfortable feeling that you can have in a classroom. And that would include for myself and I think many of my students. And I think that that’s why they complain. I have lots of students, like I say, afterwards come up and say, I really respected that. Thank you so much. I’ve never had a professor do that. And I have developed really good relationships with a lot of those students, some of which continue today. And at the same time, I’ve had students, I think, drop the next day from the class and not even give me a chance. Some that stuck it through and really complained and said that, man, that’s terrible. And then I’ve had some that started off saying that, man, that’s terrible. And then at the end of the semester said, you know, you’ve really gained my respect. I wrote you off at the very beginning, but I stuck it out because I needed the class. And um you know i have a lot of respect for you as an individual and in your faith that doesn’t necessarily mean they agree but i mean i’ve even had students say you’re an enigma to me that that that you can profess those things And yet have such a firm grasp of science and biochemistry. Wow.
SPEAKER 02 :
Oh, that’s inspirational. It’s very courageous. And, you know, God’s word does not return void. It either convicts the humble or… or it exposes the proud and it never returns void. And the hardest thing in life, I love the way you said it’s the most uncomfortable thing because we can all relate to that. The hardest thing is to put it out there, especially in front of a class. In fact, let me read from one of the students who gave you a three out of five rating on ratemyprofessor.com. which apparently three out of five is pretty bad. Back in the day, that wasn’t so bad. But I think now if you get less than five out of five, I think if you’re a millennial, you get less than five out of five, you have to go into therapy. But he gave you a three out of five and he said, quote, I don’t really care or want to hear his opinion on what’s going on in Gaza or how he found God. And then he says, exams are hard. Anyway, so I would like to hear your opinion on what’s going on in Gaza, but that’s not really appropriate for this show. But maybe you could tell us briefly, were you raised a Christian? How did you find God?
SPEAKER 03 :
Yeah. So it’s interesting because I’ve never brought Gaza up in a classroom, so I don’t know where… And so there are things that are, I think, made up. Like, I’ve never brought it up. Right. I think there was one time right after October 7th that I made a post on an announcement post that said, you know, it’s heartbreaking to see what’s going on in the Middle East. That’s about it. And because it is, right? So anyway, but coming back to your question, yeah, I was raised a Christian. I was raised in a Christian home. And so I don’t think that I really own that faith until, like I said, in my high school years. So but yeah, and probably the greatest challenge that I as a young person had against my faith was I lost my brother. He was 19 years old. I was 15 at the time. Yeah. He drowned in a river at Yosemite. So that really kind of took my world and turned it upside down. Yeah. So I had to really struggle through a lot of that. But yes, I was raised in a Christian home and embraced that faith in my teen years.
SPEAKER 02 :
Wow. Well, one thing I’ve said for my whole life is I thank God. I try to thank God every day that from the time I remember being sentient, My mom and dad told me God was real. Jesus died for your sins. You’re a sinner. I heard the gospel from the time I could understand and comprehend reality. And I just thank God for that. And I’m sure it helped you get through that tragic situation. Thanks for telling us about that. Wow.
SPEAKER 05 :
Yeah, of course. Yeah. So, Dr. Shoulders, you mentioned earlier that you could get a little bit of hot water if you actually taught intelligent design or a creation class at CSU. But it’s interesting thinking about that because pretty much every professor across the globe, when they’re teaching molecular biology, they’re They have to teach intelligent design. They don’t mean to, but I mean, when you think of, for example, the genetic code, you know, if you’re talking about DNA, you’re already teaching intelligent design because you can’t have a code without intelligence. So how do those interactions go when you’re teaching on a subject, you know, such as genetics or, you know, the DNA, anything like that? How does that go in your classroom? Is there a different approach you take?
SPEAKER 03 :
You’re absolutely right, 100% right. You can’t teach biochemistry without really teaching, I think, the greatest evidence for an intelligent designer, and that is the genetic code and all of the machinery that decodes it, and the result of the genetic code, which is the structures of proteins, which are extraordinary, they’re sophisticated, they’re unique, extraordinarily unique. And they’re quite, quite rare if we think about what has to go into producing a protein structure that’s actually functional. So it’s interesting, I do take, I don’t know if I say I take a different approach, I definitely take an approach where I try and point to, and I’m actually developing more content to try and help students see The specificity of amino acid sequences that come from a genetic code that lead to these functional proteins that we talk about and the machines, the molecular machines that run the cell, So I try and point to those things. And I think for some students it’s interesting, but I think for the most part, the narrative that this all came about through random chance processes has been something that most students have been fed for such a long time that they just accept it as being true and they don’t think about it much beyond that. You know, so I try and point them to that, like I say, in ways that I can not get myself, let’s say, in hot water. while at the same time not compromising what i know to be true and believe and then i trust that the holy spirit can work in the hearts and the minds of my students and those that are really curious about it will come and talk to me about it so wow yeah man i mean his invisible attributes are clearly seen so even if you don’t have you know say hey you’re brainwashed on this whole random mutation thing
SPEAKER 05 :
Nobody will have any excuse because the intelligent design is so obvious. I think, and forgive me, Dr. Shoulders, if I forgot part of your presentation at Rocky Mountain Creation Fellowship, but I think one of the things you did was the staggering improbability of proteins forming by chance. Are you able to present anything like that? Because I guess that would be maybe even a little bit more obvious that that’s intelligent design. Or is that more left with just side conversations with students?
SPEAKER 03 :
It’s interesting because that’s some of the content I’m developing and putting in my textbook right now. So I’m right in the third edition of my textbook. And just talking about the percentage. So a protein will form a functional structure based off of the sequence of amino acids that it’s made of. And it turns out that the vast majority, I mean, the vast majority of amino acid sequences will not form a functional sequence. We’re talking like… 0.0 with like 90 zeros, 1% of amino acid sequences will develop a functional protein. So I’m going to start to talk about it. I haven’t actually ever presented it from that standpoint, the percentage. So we’ll see how that goes, you know, and we’ll see what conversations students have from that. But to try and just point out some of what you’re saying, I mean, I think Romans 1 is something that I’ve been really convicted of my whole life, but especially recently. And I think that the talk that you saw me give, Fred, was interesting. was essentially motivated by Romans 1, and that is that this is evident. And so we don’t have to have really sophisticated arguments for that, but we can have, you know, just a conversation about this, and it should become evident to all if they’re really seeking.
SPEAKER 02 :
Wow. I’m sure that your teaching style does sort out some of the seekers, and I’m sure you’ll be rewarded for that. You mentioned that most of the students that come into your class, they’ve heard… They’ve been, I don’t want to use the word brainwashed, because that’s a Christian thing. God washes our brain. But they’ve been indoctrinated into this idea that everything they’re about to learn in their molecular biology class all came together by chance, by accident, without any intelligent guidance. And one of the things I realized during the COVID episode was that Satan wants to have people hold in their mind and exercise in their daily life irrational thoughts, ideas, and actions. And it seems to me that the indoctrination of students into this idea of of no intelligent designer, no God, an atheistic worldview without any guidance from a supernatural creator, when they come into a class like yours, you almost force them to see the fact that what they’ve been taught is irrational. And I’m wondering, are you ever able to break through with that with individual students, whether in the classroom afterwards? Have you had good witnessing opportunities amongst your students? Or maybe you’re not allowed to say, I don’t want to get you in trouble.
SPEAKER 03 :
Yeah, I, yes and no. I think it’s, so there is kind of a strange dynamic between a professor and a student. I think a lot of my students, I would say the vast majority of my students, are somewhat intimidated by professors so on really any subject and i try and and cut that intimidation out of the knees i’m going to introduce myself as i’ve mentioned which i probably you know intimidate some students but i also introduced myself as captain america um so you know i like i in other words i i say you know you can call me dr shoulders you can call me professor shoulders because that works because they have these credentials but i prefer that you call me captain america or cap for short Trying to bring down that level of intimidation to just show them I’m a person that has interests in broader society and actually having fun and not just some brain in an office.
SPEAKER 02 :
Okay, so that helps me. One of the students who gave you a five out of five He called you Cap, and I was just, I was going to get to where that came from. Captain America. Okay, so why Captain America? What’s that all about?
SPEAKER 03 :
I don’t know. It started off a long time ago. I started off a long time ago that I remember I introduced myself and I said, you know, I’m trying to convince my kids to call me the Man of Steel. You can call me Captain America. love it and then i told and i tell my students like my wife calls me babe and sweets and that’s not okay for you to call me that you know so and i try and get them engaged that’s a lot of my teaching philosophy is to engage them on a personal level so that I can maybe have conversations with them outside of class. But coming back to your question, there have been opportunities where I’ve had witnessing opportunities, but they’re fewer than I would hope for, quite honestly, and they’re fewer than I would expect. So I just have to trust that the Lord is actually working in my classroom and allowing then… Other Christian students have those types of interactions and those types of discussions with their friends. And I know that’s happened like this last semester. I had a I had one student who was a Christian and said, you know, there’s this other student in your class and, you know, he and I are great friends. And I, you know, I’m really taking the opportunity and some of the things we’re learning and. And, you know, just hearing your introduction, that’s produced a lot of questions in him. And that student actually came and talked to me. And so there has been those opportunities, but they’re fewer than I would hope for, I’ll be honest with you. But I wonder if that’s because of the professor-student dynamic.
SPEAKER 02 :
Oh, yeah. I think that does have a lot to do with it. And then there’s the nature of witnessing itself, which it seems to me as I continue to study the Bible that… Literally, one plants the seed and one waters. And none of us, we’re not like salesmen. We don’t have to close the deal. We just have to do our part. And so, man, it’s really inspirational and encouraging that you’re doing your part out there in Secular University. Wow. Good stuff. Yeah. Thank you.
SPEAKER 05 :
So, you know, we’ve talked about students. Have you had interactions or discussions with your colleagues? Has this come up about your work? You know, your worldview, your viewpoint on creation as opposed to evolution?
SPEAKER 03 :
No.
SPEAKER 02 :
Okay. So you know how you can tell who’s winning an argument? Is that the other side never brings it up.
SPEAKER 03 :
Yeah. And I don’t know. I don’t know. Like, I wonder about that. And I wonder if that’s like. and maybe this is just my own insecurities. You know, I’ve wondered, maybe it’s because, you know, I haven’t been bold enough or I don’t know. I, and I wondered that my colleagues just assume that I believe the things that they believe and that this is my religion. That’s kind of off in my closet, you know, and they don’t, I don’t bring it to work with me. And, I don’t know.
SPEAKER 05 :
Well, I know there’s somebody there. I just wish I could. She was between the ages of 40 and 60, if that helps. There’s somebody at your school that is in the sciences related to your field. It could have been chemistry. I’m not exactly positive. I just know that she definitely was a professor at CSU. So before we go any further, Dr. Shoulders, we do a segment on our show. And what we do is I get to take advantage of a certain button on my panel here. So it’s now time to ask Doug the interesting fact of the week. Are you ready, Doug? This is more on anatomy. Oh, boy. And you have some experience there with your work in the medical field, but this one, we’ll see if… We’ll see if you can get this one. Are you ready?
SPEAKER 02 :
Okay. I know. Okay. Okay. Superior, anterior, posterior. All right. I’m ready.
SPEAKER 05 :
Okay. So what’s the only muscle in your body that’s attached at just one end? The only muscle.
SPEAKER 02 :
The only muscle that’s attached at just one end. So Fred, that’s the only muscle that’s attached at just… And I think our… Oh, it’s your tongue.
SPEAKER 05 :
Nope, that’s what most people think. It’s actually…
SPEAKER 01 :
Stop the tape, stop the tape. Hey, this is Dominic Enyart. We are out of time for today. If you want to hear the rest of this program, go to rsr.org. That’s Real Science Radio, rsr.org.
SPEAKER 04 :
Scholars can’t explain it all away. Get ready to be awed by the handiwork of God.
SPEAKER 1 :
Tune into Real Science Radio. Turn up the Real Science Radio.
