In this enlightening episode of The Good News, Angie Austin is joined by Dr. Cheryl Lentz to discuss the timeless lessons found in Jim Stovall’s book, ‘Wisdom of the Ages.’ Cheryl shares her profound insights on the narrative style of the book and its unique take on discovering wisdom through a series of characters from different walks of life. The conversation delves into how wisdom can be sought through continuous learning and how perspectives shape our understanding of life’s truths.
00:00:05 Introduction with Angie Austin and Dr. Cheryl Lentz
00:00:18 Discussion on Jim Stovall’s Book Wisdom of the Ages
Welcome to The Good News with Angie Austin. Now, with The Good News, here’s Angie.
SPEAKER 05 :
Hey there, friend. Angie Austin and Dr. Cheryl Lentz, the academic entrepreneur with The Good News today. The Good News with Angie Austin and Cheryl today. Hey, Cheryl.
SPEAKER 01 :
Hey, hey, hey, how are you?
SPEAKER 05 :
I am doing well. So I knew that you knew my mentor, Jim Stovall, that you knew his work, and you recently read one of his books, and you absolutely loved it. So I want to know which one, because we’re going to discuss it today, and I’m sure Jim will be thrilled to hear this.
SPEAKER 01 :
Absolutely. Well, I know Jim because he wrote the foreword for one of my books and I wrote in one of his. And so any opportunity I get to see, I saw one of his books out there and I had to pick it up. And I couldn’t put it down. I literally had to move meetings because I wanted to finish it. It’s called Wisdom of the Ages. And it was done, let’s see, this was done quite a while ago. So I’m a little behind. It was in 2000. But I’ll tell you, it was fascinating, the style he wrote it in, which I’ll explain in a minute. and how his point was, but you have to tell me if I have to do the spoiler alert, because I really don’t want to tell your listeners about it. They got to get a copy for themselves, because the ending is a little surprising.
SPEAKER 05 :
Okay, so give us as much as you can. But I think for, you know, I think for the benefit of people listening, because some of them won’t be able to get the book, let’s just go for it and give them as much as they can. Okay.
SPEAKER 01 :
Well, the way he writes this is what’s called a business allegory. So he set this book And like the the old English setting. So there’s a king and there’s, you know, the minions of the court and there’s the whole castle and the whole, you know, set a whole lot many centuries ago. But the premise was to be able to introduce the king is on the quest and he wants to leave his legacy behind. And so the king is on the quest for the wisdom of the ages, hence the title. And so they bring in a member of each category and each of them is a vignette, meaning, you know, a three to five page chapter on the search for wisdom. And they look at it from the point of the merchant, the soldier, the poet, the farmer, the physician, the teacher, the parent, the historian, and on and on. And they go through like 15 different versions. And it’s really unique to see wisdom from that point of view. When you’re looking at the educated, the physician, the doctor, the historian, the You know, and the teacher and their humility that they bring and the stress the king has with trying to find that one thing, right, that one thing that he could carve in like a byline that he could do for, you know, on his tombstone that says this king did this and here’s how we discovered the wisdom of the ages kind of thing. And it was just fascinating, particularly as a leadership professor, to be able to see because we have something called postmodernism where everyone is correct from their point of view. And so if you look at everyone’s unique point of view, banker, town crier, which I thought was hysterical, the hunter, the laborer, the scientist, the judge, the elder, I mean, it was really fascinating in there. And then the ultimate was, and this is going to make me cry, Jim did such a good job, is the final chapter when the king is, you know, can’t sleep for a couple of days. He’s reviewed all these people who came to the court and made their big flamboyant speech to the entire nobility, if you will. And then a young girl on the final day comes into his chambers in front of everyone and she gets in trouble because she’s not supposed to be there. And out of the mouths of babes comes the wisdom of the ages. And I will only read a line from it, but wisdom is in the seeking and always seeking wisdom and you shall have it. And so the point isn’t in the what you know But in the seeking of how and where you find it and the fact that you’re always seeking for it, regardless of your perspective. I darn near cried, Angie. Such a young girl could have that level of wisdom, which was the point. And the young shall lead us, the young shall teach us, the young shall discover the secrets of the way. And I just think that it’s just way to go, Jim. I was amazed by this book, truly.
SPEAKER 05 :
You know, he always jokes that he writes books he can’t read and he makes movies he can’t see because he’s blind. And I just find him to be so wise, but also to place value in all people of any level. you know, that there’s no, he’s wealthy and successful and has run, you know, created the narrative television network. And he’s got a lot of employees and many of them have been with him. I think like the, the newcomer has been there like 20 some odd years. Like he keeps them for decades and all of his employees, their homes are paid off. He’s made sure that, you know, that they’re successful. They get great vacations. They make really good money. There’s some kind of profit sharing that he has in place. I mean, And it’s a highly lucrative place for people to work because he values them so much. But there’s zero turnover. And I can see.
SPEAKER 01 :
But that’s the whole premise of this book is to be able to be happy where you are. And it’s the whole life is a journey, not a destination. If you ever get there, you’re in the wrong room kind of thing. And I just watch this in there. But the ending with that young child, it just chokes me up every time I think about it, because children see it through such simplistic eyes. they get at the age of nine that most of us are still seeking at the age of 57 and more. And I think that’s fascinating.
SPEAKER 05 :
You know, maybe it’s a lesson to you and me today because I know you and I both are affected by the cold and the clouds and where we live. You’re, you know, in the Chicago area. I’m in the Denver metro area. And even though I get more sunshine than you do, I definitely get my mood gets affected by the winter, the cold and the clouds. And it’s not my happy time of year per se. And maybe it’s kind of a lesson to us because you and I were discussing that in the break before we started the program that, you know, Certain places, like I’d like to be in California in the next few years because I like to walk and I feel when it’s cold and we don’t have sidewalks in our neighborhood, I don’t get out and walk. And then if the weather’s bad, I’ve got to drive to the gym to walk. But then I don’t have a car that’s good in the snow. So then I stay in the house. And then does that help me feel any better? You know what I mean? So I feel like I’m trapped in this. What is that negative self-fulfilling prophecy? I don’t feel so good today. Yes. And then I don’t do anything that’ll make me feel better. And then, you know, blah, blah, blah. I mean, I’ve even taken to getting like groceries delivered. I work from home, you know, and I’m not getting out to the gym as much when the weather’s bad because I don’t have, I guess it’s all wheel drive or whatever, you know, so I don’t want to slip around. So maybe this is a wake up call to us. And I’m telling you, I had one, Cheryl, the other day when I interviewed two retired friends that I met, gosh, 10, 12 years ago. They retired in Hawaii, but then they decided to start. They went to India to help out after the tsunami, and they were helping with rice. The town leaders, the village leaders said, oh, don’t waste the rice on the widows. We don’t even want them here. They don’t have any value. Don’t give them rice. And so they realized that these widows, they don’t remarry and that they have no value after their husbands die. And if they have children, then those kids also suffer because they don’t have a father. And then they’re left put aside in society as being worthless. And so in the last little over a decade, they’ve built over 400 houses for widows in India. And it definitely was a wake up call for me. that like what do i need to do do i need to volunteer for meals on wheels do i need to um start um my friend he does coaching for special olympics do i need to do some work with arc with my favorite ambassadors doors who are differently abled like the best way jim stovall always tells me when you’re feeling blue or you’re in a funk is to get to do something for someone else and that totally pulls you up by your bootstraps and after talking to margie and don cook with hands on houses i was like Get a grip, Angie.
SPEAKER 01 :
I’ve had that same conversation with me. That’s why I do my gratitude journals, sometimes both in the mornings and in the evenings, just to remind myself how fortunate I am. And so life is good. You and I should be in a quest to make it better, not that it isn’t good for us. And we’re very, very fortunate and lucky in the lives we have led. But the fact is we’re still searching for for looking for where our happily ever after may be. And I think it’s okay to be able to look because this wisdom of the ages, it’s in the seeking that you shall find. And it’s okay to seek that. And it’s okay for us to find where we are most happy. It’s just I think in the how that we do that, that may be something that you and I struggle with because I think society tells us, well, we shouldn’t have those things, particularly as women and particularly as a single woman for myself. And I just don’t want to settle for that. And I so vehemently disagree. Happiness is where you find it. So I choose to be happy. But yeah, in the wintertime, I need a little bit more motivation.
SPEAKER 05 :
Well, and you and I’ve talked too about that. You didn’t expect to be. single at this point in life you lost your best friend dog you know and just recently and um you had uh you don’t have your own children but you for a while were having um foreign exchange students live with you these are things that have drastically changed in your life that you did not expect at this certain point and those are things we really have to adapt to and like come up with this new plan do we write out the plan do we start figuring out the future plan you know, so that we aren’t wasting months or years. And for me, it’s generally, even though it’s, you know, December now, for me, generally January and February are the two months that I have a harder time functioning in the cold in, you know, my environment. And that’s when we’re leaving actually in like two weeks because it really helps me to get outside and exercise. And so, and that’s what I did in California. I exercised every day. It really gives me that little boost in my spirit. It makes me a better functioning person.
SPEAKER 01 :
Yeah, you realize that, Angie, that’s fantastic. Some people don’t even know and then they don’t know. And that’s where we’re struggling with is what is the answer for us to be our most happy? Because we’re happy where we are, but can we do a little better? I think we can.
SPEAKER 05 :
Jim told me that no one was more depressed, Jim Stovall, because we’re talking about him. No one was more depressed than Jim Stovall when he was a young man who planned on playing NFL football, who was an exceptional athlete, who was told he was going blind, was in this little like 10 by 10 room in the back of his parents’ house, like just not even wanting to continue with his life, knowing that he was going to go blind and he had like no hope. And he I mean, now, if you think about the life that he’s built with that writing over 60 books and he’s working on his ninth movie, employing so many people coming up with a narrative television networks that people who are blind or have difficulty seeing can watch slash listen to movies, you know, and know what’s going on on the screen. And television shows, I mean, really, it’s genius. And I’ve asked him, do you think you’ve maybe had a better life or done more because you lost your sight? And I’ve never once heard him say like, oh, poor me, or yeah, what a bad shake that I received. And his grandmother has him had him do what you do and he still does it. And whenever he would go to her, his grandmother to complain, she’d say, I’ll listen to all your complaints after you write your golden list, which is the 10 things you’re thankful for. And that’s what you’re basically doing every day.
SPEAKER 01 :
Exactly. Because I think it’s a matter of perspective because remember you and I have talked about either the glass is half empty or the glass is half full. I disagree. Fill the glass. Yeah. And people don’t think of that choice. and we always think of this dichotomy, and so I have to, that’s part of my role as a teacher, and why I love the purpose of teaching, is to be able to help students see what’s already there, and sometimes I have to do that mirror for myself, because I get caught up in the, oh, woe is me, and it’s cold, and it’s windy, and I’m ever forgetting myself going, it’s a matter of perspective, because we just talked about, right, I came, I was in California, and it was 60 degrees, and yet For them, it was cold. For me, it was four degrees in Chicago. It was a heat wave. So it’s all relative.
SPEAKER 05 :
Yeah, but I said, was it chilly? And you’re like, well, it’s in the 60s. But you’re like, it’s four degrees here in Chicago right now.
SPEAKER 01 :
So four. So it’s all relative to where you’re at. And I think if we can choose to decide what we see and what we focus on, I think that’s the secret. Because if I focus on things that are funnier or things that I’m not doing well today, I get on the phone and I’ve got calls and I plan and I dance and I got a message from Coldplay on Alexa today, and I’ve been amused by it ever since because I’m one of their top listeners today. And who knew, right? And I’m just ticked off by a little quote from Alexa of all places, you know? That was funny.
SPEAKER 05 :
Oh, my goodness.
SPEAKER 01 :
It’s just what we choose to see, and I think that’s the choice. Some people would not think it’s a funny thing. I choose to find happiness because first you’re happy, then your circumstances change. Most of us decide that first our circumstances change, then we’ll be happy. It’s not that way.
SPEAKER 05 :
You know, I just think that I love talking to you. You know, you and I will meet hopefully in California. I’ll be there hopefully within the next two years. I just have to let my husband know that’s the plan. But we’ll finally get to meet after, you know, 10 years of being friends on the radio, which has been such a blessing. I want to make sure that people can find you. Give us the name of the book again that you’re speaking about today, Jim Stovall’s book, and where we can find you and your work as well.
SPEAKER 01 :
The book is Wisdom of the Ages. And I also find it fascinating that if you’re really good, you can see that Jim put his phone number in there. And I would love to ask Jim how many people have actually called. Oh, a lot.
SPEAKER 05 :
And they email him, too.
SPEAKER 01 :
Oh, I love it. You can find me at Dr. Cheryl Lentz dot com or Dr. Cheryl Lentz at Gmail dot com. Call me anytime. I love to chat.
SPEAKER 05 :
Excellent. Merry Christmas, my friend.
SPEAKER 01 :
Merry Christmas to you. Take care.
SPEAKER 03 :
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SPEAKER 05 :
Burlington is listening to the mighty 670 KLT Denver. Hey there, friend. Angie Austin here with the Good News. And joining me is author and pastor Aaron Rios. His book is Spirit and Truth, Reclaiming the Heart of Worship. Welcome, Aaron. Thank you so much for having me. What an honor. So give us an overview of your book, Spirit and Truth. Kind of put our toe in the pool.
SPEAKER 04 :
Absolutely. Well, I’m sure as you’re aware, charts right now and culture is inundated. There’s a grand worship movement. Probably it’s unprecedented. it’s uh it’s available i went to a starbucks and worship music was playing so it’s out there and so the intention and the heart behind this book really is to take a step back and to consider to ask some probing questions because i really believe that god wants his people to reclaim a heart of true and genuine worship i’m reminded of an instance visiting the florida keys i was telling you i’m originally from florida and i visited the florida keys Quite a few times, there’s a pier down in the Keys, if you’ve ever been there. It’s known as the Sunset Pier, if I recall. And almost every evening, people will gather if it’s a nice night and if the sky is clear, and people will watch the sun just fall off the face of the earth. It’s a beautiful, breathtaking sight. And as the sun is setting, it’s the most amazing thing I’ve ever witnessed. People will just collectively just sigh and applaud as the sunset goes down. It’s so beautiful. And I sat back and I observed that moment, and I recognized something, is that worship and celebration seems to be an innate response from people. something’s built in us. And that really influenced this book because I know it’s when I came to church and I began to sit in worship services, sometimes people are very engaged. Other times people are playing on their phones or drifting off. And so my heart behind this book was, God, what are you looking for? What does the Bible have to say about true worship? And I discovered it went far beyond music genre.
SPEAKER 05 :
And so that one, that particular one that you’re talking about, that pier, I’m just curious, that’s in Key West, right? The one that, Sunset Pier? Yeah.
SPEAKER 04 :
Yeah, that’s in the Keys.
SPEAKER 05 :
I’m obsessed with the Keys. So just if you’re listening, just so you know, he’s not in the Florida Keys anymore or in Florida anymore. He’s up towards Boston. And so you’re a pastor of a church as well. So just tell us a little bit about you. Give us a little background because you’ve got an interesting story regarding your kids going right now as well.
SPEAKER 04 :
Oh, my goodness. Yeah, it’s kind of an unusual story. So You know, I gave my life to the Lord back in 2009. And prior to that, I was in a band. I was trying to make it happen in the music industry and all that stuff. And so when I gave my life to the Lord, we had two children. And that quickly grew to five after that. I have five daughters, and we have a sixth one on the way. It’s a boy. Very excited about that. Didn’t expect that. I began to serve the Lord in Central Florida, really, just right out of the bat. God got a hold of me. It was a pretty miraculous encounter with Jesus, really. It’s just incredible. And it happened in my home. And then from there, I felt this just urge to just get involved. I felt like, you know what, I had this encounter with Jesus, and other people need to know about this. And so I took a direction towards missions. It was not expected. I remember Haiti had an earthquake. Yes. And I just felt compelled when I saw that earthquake. I said, I’ve got to go. So I called my record label up at the time, and I said, I want to go on this mission trip. And they thought I was out of my mind. And they were like, hey, that’s great. But God had another plan. And through that, I actually ended up parting ways with my record label and found myself on the mission field. And for several years, yeah, I investigated missions. And little did I know, step by step by step, as I backed away from music entirely and just began to pursue missions and how I can serve in the church, I found myself eventually leaving Florida after 36 years to step in as a worship pastor in western Massachusetts in a town I could not pronounce.
SPEAKER 05 :
Now, in terms of worship music, why do you think that music has such an ability to reach people’s hearts? I see that like the teens, my daughter’s going to a Christian camp. One of my, I’ve got three teenagers in high school, is going to a Christian camp. And I’ve always wanted that for my kids because I see the worship sessions really get into the hearts of young people, people in general, when they attend these big functions and they’re listening to music. Why so much power in that? Yeah.
SPEAKER 04 :
I mean, I think it goes without saying, music has such an entrancing power over people. I think music does the same thing that good food and good conversation can do. Again, being from Florida, we have a lot of soul food in Florida. Or if anyone’s ever been going through a rough time and they say, you know what, I just need to consume a pint of ice cream right now. There’s something, I think, intrinsic with things that can stimulate our soul. think we find comfort i think we find connection i think we find relief and so it goes without saying i mean come on we’ve got soul music right and so if someone is feeling excited they put on a certain kind of music if someone’s feeling down on and on so i think it goes without saying that music has a capacity to reach an inner person and so i think that’s where it starts and i think god designed us that way i think he he designed us to be able to respond a certain thing. So that’s a great thing, but I think also that could be a challenging thing if we don’t really investigate that and really kind of put that through the lens of Scripture.
SPEAKER 05 :
Now, in your book, Spirit and Truth, talk about what you’re teaching us in Spirit and Truth, Reclaiming the Heart of Worship.
SPEAKER 04 :
Yeah, thank you. Well, I think the first thing I want to say is that I’m not prescribing a worship methodology. I’m not trying to tell people how to play an instrument I’m not trying to tell people, you should do it this way. I’m actually going back, and I’m looking at a couple of things that I found in Scripture, and this is what I’m really pushing and considering in the book, is that we don’t confuse, perhaps even going back on the whole soul stimulation, you know, soul stimulation for the presence of God, you know? I think that worship is really like the design that God has put in us. So I’m looking at A couple of different instances in Scripture, and even where I get the title from Spirit and Truth, that comes from John chapter 4, where Jesus takes a journey into a city, a town called Samaria, and he encounters somewhat of an unlikely person in this journey. He finds a woman sitting by a well. Some of your listeners might be familiar with that story in John chapter 4. It’s really fascinating because Jesus is a rabbi. And so he’s traveling through a region that most Jewish people, especially rabbis, they would have circumvented. They wouldn’t have gone through Samaria because they just didn’t really get along with that people group in that time. But Jesus marches right into Samaria, and it’s very intentional. It seems like he was intentionally hoping to meet this woman. And when he encounters this woman in John chapter 4, she has a little bit of some scandal in her life, I think. But he has this conversation with her. And the point of that conversation is really interesting. He brings a message to redirect her back to worshiping God. And I found that so fascinating because everything that’s in that journey, I believe it’s relatable. For instance, how often we take the longer road, like the Jews of that day would have went around Samaria because of kind of some religious preoccupied with some religious rules. And that’s a very wearying journey, and I think sometimes if we’re not careful, we can actually make our spirituality very wearisome. Jesus goes through unfamiliar territory, and I think sometimes Jesus calls us into unfamiliar territory. But the message, the kind of climax of that message is God is spirit, and those who worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth. And so that’s really the premise of where we’re jumping off with this book.
SPEAKER 05 :
I love your enthusiasm for, you know, worship. And I can see why you, you know, took a position and moved across country to do that. Obviously, that must have been scary for you. Now you’ve got the sixth kid on the way and you’ve left, you know, your childhood basically state and where you’ve always lived. How did you, did you really feel God’s prompting you to do that? And how did you face the fear of really just uprooting everything to move? I mean, outside of Boston, it’s so different from Florida. I mean, let’s be honest.
SPEAKER 04 :
Oh, my goodness. Well, Angie, if you want me to be, like, really kind of tell you how it was, I wasn’t looking for any type of an opportunity. I was just step by step trying to be obedient with those little inner promptings and circumstances that were beginning to unfold. But, you know, what actually happened is I went into this season of real intense prayer and dedication. I was really wanting to hear from God. I’m like, God, what do you have for me? What’s your plan for me? Because I was working a job with a religious organization at that time, and they were gently relieving me of my job. They gave me about a six to eight month window where they said, we’re going to be kind of phasing out your position here. but we’ll help you find a new job. And I saw that as an opportunity to trust God. Yeah, it was wild. In fact, this happened in October, and I knew we were getting around the holidays. I certainly don’t recommend this, but I actually didn’t tell my wife until after the holidays because I just wanted to enjoy the holidays. Now, again, I don’t recommend it, but I did tell her in January after the holidays kind of weighed down, and I said, okay, listen, we’re going to have some changes here. So now we’re into 2015. And I told her, I said, but let’s pray. I really believe God’s going to do something. And then over the course of the next couple of weeks, I got a random call from a pastor that I had crossed paths with. And in a short season, he’d spoken to my life. But he called me. He said, Brother Aaron, I’m calling you from Massachusetts. We’re looking for a worship pastor. And I just knew it was this ordained moment that I was like, this, it was such a confirmation in my heart. And within 30 days, we packed up. And we moved. Complete uncertainty of what the future would have, but knowing that I really believed God had ordained my steps. And so here we are.
SPEAKER 05 :
Now, in terms of being a worship pastor, and I love that story, by the way, do you feel like the pressure to entertain, like how do you balance that entertainment versus really trying to get people to embrace the Lord and have a relationship with the Lord?
SPEAKER 04 :
Yeah, there’s no doubt. I think I could take the liberty and speak for many musicians. Like we take this pleasure in what we do. That’s a good thing because I don’t think God calls us to be miserable in our labor. So it’s great when you can do something out of your gifting or your talent. That’s a great thing. I don’t think it’s wrong to take joy in that. But I also try to navigate. And when I work with teams, I try to encourage teams and have them consider this. Kind of two things. Number one, I say, hey, look at these platforms. And there’s so many beautiful churches. And a lot of churches are inundated with glorious and beautiful worship setups. I mean, drums and keyboards and lights and all the bells and whistles. It’s a beautiful luxury. But I also like to encourage teams like, hey, about 80% of what you’re seeing on this platform is not for the pastor. It’s for the worship team. Like, the churches have invested this. I realize not all churches look like that, but just kind of in that general sense. Perhaps most pastors could do fine with just a little microphone. So consider this platform. What an honor, what a privilege, and you want to steward this really well. And I don’t think a lot of people involved in worship teams really take a moment to consider, like, wow, look what’s been provided. And then the second thing is, what is the duty of the worship team? Is it important that we get a congregation to sing? Absolutely, but I think it’s more important that we prepare the hearts of people to receive the Word of God. In other words, the worship team is really working as a conduit to help kind of till hearts, so that hearts can receive the seed of the Word. So there has to be this cooperation and intentionality of, I’m here to serve the pastor, if there’s a structure like that. But really, I’m here to support this ministry that, honestly, the most important thing that we do is there has to be the ministry of the Word. And so helping worship teams realize, really, like, this is really your role, and this is a biblical role that we find as well.
SPEAKER 05 :
Well, I’m excited to have you on again after you have that next kid, because I think your life could probably be in Instagram, you know? Yeah. Instagram following you could get with that. That is so crazy. Five girls and a boy. What an exciting time in your life. Give us your website, would you, Erin Rios?
SPEAKER 04 :
Absolutely. It’s AaronRios.com. And, Angie, just for your show, I put up a promo to anyone that’s interested, offering 10% off on Spirit and Truth, Reclaiming the Heart of Worship, just for your listeners.
SPEAKER 05 :
Awesome. Well, thank you, Aaron. It was a real pleasure to have you on the show, and I’m looking forward to having you back.
SPEAKER 04 :
Thank you so much. God bless you. You too.
SPEAKER 02 :
Thank you for listening to The Good News with Angie Austin on AM670 KLTT.
