In this compelling episode of Washington Watch, guest host Jody Heiss dives deep into a series of pressing issues confronting both national and international spheres. From the political ramifications of the Southern Poverty Law Center’s controversial listings to the Calvary Chapel San Jose’s landmark fight for religious freedom, listeners gain exclusive insight into the legal and constitutional challenges facing faith-based organizations today. The episode also addresses the political complexities of healthcare reforms in America and explores current tensions in Syria that could have significant implications for regional stability and US foreign policy.
SPEAKER 02 :
from the heart of our nation’s capital in Washington, D.C., bringing compelling interviews, insightful analysis, taking you beyond the headlines and soundbites into conversations with our nation’s leaders and newsmakers, all from a biblical worldview. Sitting in for Tony is today’s host, Jody Heiss.
SPEAKER 01 :
Decade later. When on September 9th, 2025, one day before Charlie Kirk was assassinated, the SPLC’s Hate Watch newsletter singled out Charlie and Turning Point USA by name, labeling them dangerous extremists. And as with FRC, in the aftermath of Charlie’s assassination, there have been no retractions, no accountability, and no acknowledgement of the risks inherent in branding mainstream political figures as existential threats.
SPEAKER 06 :
That was Congressman Chip Roy literally moments ago at a hearing on the Southern Poverty Law Center’s efforts to silence conservatives and Christian Americans for their beliefs. Welcome to this December 16th edition of Washington Watch. I’m your host today, Jody Heiss, filling in for Tony Perkins. Thank you so much for joining us today. All right, the House Rules Committee takes up a bill to extend COVID-era Obamacare subsidies. Joining me here momentarily will be North Carolina Congressman Mark Harris with insights on the health insurance issues that are now facing Congress. Plus, a little bit later, Bob Tyler will be joining us to break down the Calvary Chapel San Jose case before the U.S. Supreme Court. This case is challenging over $1.2 million in COVID lockdown fines that the church faced. And here’s a quote. If the SPLC is truly concerned about stopping hate and violence, then it should drop the gun. Well, that quote came from Tony Perkins moments ago at a Capitol Hill hearing. The House Judiciary Subcommittee held a hearing on the Southern Poverty Law Center’s influence on federal civil rights policy, including claims that the group has targeted Christian and conservative Americans and literally tried to suppress their free speech and association rights. And joining me now is Washington Stand reporter Casey Harper, who has been following today’s stories. Casey, let’s start with this one. What are some of the key takeaways from today’s congressional hearing regarding the Southern Poverty Law Center?
SPEAKER 09 :
Thanks, Jody. Well, lawmakers and witnesses examined the SPLC’s influence on government, media, and schools, questioning whether its hate group lists unfairly target conservative and Christian organizations, which has long been an accusation. Now, Tony Perkins, a family research counsel, told the committee that the SPLC’s listings have fueled threats and even real-world violence. He pointed to the 2012 terrorist attack on FRC headquarters. Here’s what he had to say during his testimony.
SPEAKER 07 :
If we want a freer, safer, and more just society, we must reject the SPLC’s practice of ideological blacklisting and ensure the government agencies, media outlets, corporations, and schools stop outsourcing moral judgment to an organization that has long abandoned neutrality and morality. Thank you.
SPEAKER 09 :
Witnesses also highlighted the SPLC’s large funding, national reach, and its materials even being used in classrooms, which raises concerns that such labeling chills free speech and political participation. And now alongside Tony Perkins, Andrew Seifer of Turning Point USA, Tyler O’Neill of The Daily Signal, and Amanda Tyler of the Baptist Joint Committee for Religious Liberty, voiced strong concern over the SPLC’s anti-Christian and anti-conservative rhetoric. The hearing concluded with calls for Congress, corporations, and educational institutions to stop relying on SPLC designations and to protect Americans’ rights to freely express their beliefs without intimidation or marginalization, Jody.
SPEAKER 06 :
Extremely important hearing there, Casey. Thank you very much. In fact, Tony Perkins, even this moment, is trying to head this way from that hearing there in the Capitol. And hopefully he will be able to join us with some additional insights here in a little while. But Casey, moving on to some other important topics that I know you’ve been following. We’ve got a California church is taking its fight over the COVID era worship restrictions that they experienced. They’re taking it to the Supreme Court. We’re talking in Calvary Chapel, San Jose. Why is this such an important case and one that could have some national impact?
SPEAKER 09 :
Yeah, Jody, I think there’s real opportunity for precedent on this case. So what are the details? Well, Calvary Chapel San Jose and its pastor, Mike McClure, are asking the U.S. Supreme Court to take a look at more than $1.2 million in fines imposed on them for holding those in-person worship services during California’s strict COVID lockdowns. Now, the church argues it was unfairly punished, while many secular activities were freely allowed to continue under much less restrictive rules. Now this case raises key constitutional questions about religious freedom, government authority during public health emergencies, and whether imposing massive fines for worship violates the First Amendment. A Supreme Court decision like this could shape how states regulate religious services in future crises, Jody.
SPEAKER 06 :
Wow. Well, thank you for that as well, Casey. All right, listen, by the way, we are going to have Bob Tyler, who’s the president of the Advocates for Faith and Freedom. He’ll be joining us to go a little bit deeper into that topic as well. But if I can, Casey, switch to some international news. Police are revealing new evidence right now. including some terrorist-related material as it refers to and relates to the anti-Semitic attack that took place near Bondi Beach. As we all know, 15 people were killed in that brutal attack there in Sydney, Australia. But what’s the latest that you’re hearing? And is this message of anti-Semitism, the dangers of it, is that resonating globally, particularly now during Hanukkah?
SPEAKER 09 :
Well, Jody, police say the suspects had traveled to the Philippines last month, a trip now under investigation. And new evidence suggests that this attack was inspired by the Islamic State.
SPEAKER 15 :
I also confirm that the vehicle which is registered to the younger male contained IEDs, but I also confirm that it contained two homemade ISIS flags. We continue to work through the motive of this tragedy and we’ll continue to do so. And I think it’s really important that our investigators continue to be given time to do that.
SPEAKER 09 :
Now, to your question, Jody, the new evidence reinforces that this was a targeted anti-Semitic terrorist attack on a Jewish holiday. Now, the violence has sparked global concerns, particularly in New York, where police visibly increased security at synagogues and Jewish sites amid fears of copycat or related threats during this holiday, Jody.
SPEAKER 06 :
Yeah, I mean, you’ve got to anticipate the possibility of something like that happening. It’s just incredible.
SPEAKER 09 :
Well, if you don’t see the anti-Semitism at this point with these attacks, I’m not sure that you’re capable of seeing it.
SPEAKER 06 :
Yeah, I totally agree with you. Well, Casey, let me ask you this. If we can switch back to some domestic news. One of the big issues taking a lot of oxygen out of the room right now, of course, is this whole thing with healthcare, really health insurance. I know we’ve touched on it a little bit, but does it appear to you that some of the negotiations there are breaking down?
SPEAKER 09 :
You know, Jody, I think for all the negotiation, for all the hullabaloo, the government shutdown that was over these ACA subsidies, they still haven’t been able to reach a deal. And they have that December 15th deadline. You know, these ACA subsidies are expiring and millions of Americans are going to see their health care premiums rise next year. Now, I think it’s important to note that. Some of the framing on this is not exactly fair because people are characterizing it as if Americans will be forced to pay thousands and thousands of dollars more for their premiums. And, you know, some will may be facing that, but they can also, if the price goes up on one product, you might shop elsewhere. So it’s not as if, you know, Obamacare subsidies or that Obamacare is the only health insurance available to everyone. It’s just been that these prices have been artificially lowered by taxpayers like you, Jody, and me, who have been keeping these premiums lower. And so when that expires, we’re gonna see these premiums raised. It’s hitting the affordability crisis, and so far there’s no deal.
SPEAKER 06 :
Well, Casey, thank you so much. You set the stage perfectly. Appreciate, as always, you keeping us abreast on these items. And I want to go now to the latest on this battle over health care, over health insurance, really. Joining me now to discuss this is Congressman Mark Harris. He, of course, represents the 8th Congressional District of North Carolina. Congressman Harris, thank you for joining us.
SPEAKER 14 :
Hey, Jody, it’s great to be with you.
SPEAKER 06 :
Okay, listen, dealmakers all over the place, both chambers all over seem to be making some last-ditch efforts right now to try to extend the Obamacare subsidies. What are you hearing? What are you seeing right now?
SPEAKER 14 :
Well, I think that what we’re actually going to see is what really needed to happen. And that was the Democrats set this into motion. And frankly, we knew that it wasn’t sustainable. And you’re going to see these subsidies, basically the COVID era subsidies expire the end of December. I do think Republicans are working tirelessly to try to come up with a plan. We’re going to take a vote this week on a healthcare plan that’s going to really focus on several things. One, folks being able to buy health insurance through their associations and forming associations, which I think is going to be very important. And then there’s going to be some more that’s going to go into these sort of choice accounts that folks are able to get through the places they work and for businesses to be able to help their employees by basically giving them some money that they would be able to go out and purchase and shop for their own. And I think you’re going to see some of that happen. There’s really a series of ideas that Republicans have have really supported for some time. And now we’re finding ourselves in a situation where Obamacare is doing exactly what we predicted it would do. And that is collapse on itself if you’re not continuing to fund it. So I think that. Ultimately, what I’m understanding, Jody, is that we’re going to still have Obamacare in place unsubsidized in the COVID era premiums. They’ll still be subsidized in some way. But we’re going to offer Americans an alternative so that they can have the opportunity to have more control of their health care and their spending. So I think when it’s all said and done, people are going to be glad that it’s happened. But I think it’s going to take some time to get there.
SPEAKER 06 :
It’s going to take some time and probably a little pain to get there. What about Congressman Harris, the Hyde Amendment, the no tax dollars going for abortion with all the discussion debates that are negotiations taking place? Is the Hyde Amendment going to stand?
SPEAKER 14 :
I think the Hyde Amendment is going to stand. I’m very thankful that folks have been committed to that here, and we’re not willing to do anything different. So if you’re going to be able to be on that plan, the Hyde Amendment is going to be in place and is going to protect us from putting federal money toward abortions. That’s my understanding at this point of where we are.
SPEAKER 06 :
Well, keep it up. That’s a biggie. All right. If I can, we’ve got less than two minutes to go here. Some other news. The House Judiciary Committee subcommittee, of course, had a hearing today on the Southern Property Law Center. I’ll be discussing that a little bit more as the program unfolds. But wanted to get your thoughts. I know you were there. What did you think? What were the highlights of the hearing?
SPEAKER 14 :
Well, I was grateful for the hearing, Jody, grateful that our chairman of the subcommittee, Chip Roy, had assembled us to do this. I thought the president of FRC, Tony Perkins, did a phenomenal job of relating exactly the experiences that FRC had gone through and just really it exposed. And that was so important to expose what the Southern Poverty and Law Center is really all about. And it really exposed them that they are really trying to stop Christians. And I mean, we had folks there, not only FRC, but you also had folks there from Turning Point USA. They played such a pivotal part, unfortunately, the SBLC did. Even in the assassination of Charlie Kirk, you could easily make that link. And then, of course, you all know what happened at FRC as a result of SBLC’s dangerous, dangerous statements that they put out there.
SPEAKER 06 :
Thank you so much, Congressman Mark Harris. We always appreciate you coming on. And I will say it was an honor to be with you and others last night there in the meeting. Always good to see you. Thank you for joining us on Washington Watch.
SPEAKER 14 :
Thank you, Jody. It’s always a pleasure.
SPEAKER 06 :
All right, friends, don’t go anywhere coming up. We are going to have a special guest who will be joining me to dig deeper into today’s hearing on the Southern Poverty Law Center. So you don’t want to go anywhere. Stick with us. We’ll be back in just a few moments.
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Hello, I’m Tony Perkins, and I want to invite you to join me for Stand on the Word, a daily journey through the Bible, 10 to 15 minutes a day. That’s all it takes. And in no time, you’ll have finished the entire Bible. And along the way, we’ll learn how to apply God’s truths to the world in which we live. As we’re about to start a new year and as our nation is about to celebrate 250 years, there’s never been a better time for a fresh start in the Word of God. To join us, text BIBLE to 67742. That’s BIBLE to 67742.
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Looking for a trusted source of news that shares your Christian values? Turn to The Washington Stand, your ultimate destination for informed, faith-centered reporting. Our dedicated team goes beyond the headlines, delivering stories that matter most to believers. From breaking events to cultural insights, we provide clear, compassionate coverage through a biblical lens. Discover news you can trust at The Washington Stand, where faith and facts meet every day.
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For over 4,000 years, the Jewish people have had legal, historical, and biblical ties to the land of Israel, especially the heartland of Israel, Judea and Samaria, which much of the world still calls the West Bank. To Israelis, Judea and Samaria is far more than a name. It’s the center of their ancestral homeland where nearly 80% of the Bible’s events took place. Abraham purchased property in Hebron, Jacob in Shechem, Joshua made an altar on Mount Ebal and led the Israelites into a covenant before God. On Mount Gerizim, overlooking Shechem, Jesus talked to the Samaritan woman at the well about worshiping neither on Mount Gerizim nor in Jerusalem, but in spirit and in truth. Judea and Samaria is nearly a quarter of Israel’s current land mass, not a small strip of land on the Jordan River, but a vital and strategic part of the nation’s identity. The October 7th massacre, launched from Gaza, shattered the illusion that giving away territory brings peace. Gaza, which was once seen as the cornerstone of a two-state solution, became a launchpad for terror. Today, only 21 percent of Israelis support a Palestinian state. Trust in a two-state solution has all but collapsed. The Middle East is changing. Iran’s grip is weakening. New alliances are forming. But Western countries and some U.S. officials still chase the mirage of a two-state solution. History speaks clearly. The 2005 Gaza withdrawal, backed by the U.S., led not to peace but to a terrorist regime. Judea and Samaria are 24 times larger than Gaza, deeply woven into Israel’s geographic and spiritual fabric. To surrender them would not bring peace. It would invite conflict and existential danger. Family Research Council stands with Israel’s rightful claim to sovereignty. It’s time for America to do the same for history, for justice, and for lasting security in the Middle East.
SPEAKER 06 :
Good afternoon. Welcome back to Washington Watch. Thank you so much for joining us. I’m Jody Heiss filling in today for Tony and appreciate you joining us as well. All right. Just a couple of hours ago, a subcommittee of the House Judiciary Committee held a hearing on the disgraced Southern Poverty Law Center, specifically the way it’s been targeting Christians and conservative Americans. And among those who testified was an executive VP of Charlie Kirk’s Turning Point USA, Tyler O’Neill. Literally, he wrote the book on the SPLC. But in addition to him was our very own Tony Perkins. He was at the hearing. He testified. And he is joining me now just literally coming in from the Capitol to discuss this. Tony, thank you for joining me. Thank you for rushing over here. Well, thank you, Jody.
SPEAKER 07 :
I know I’ve never seen it from this side. It’s a different view. It’s a different view. It’s a different view.
SPEAKER 15 :
It actually looks pretty good.
SPEAKER 07 :
Well, I feel like we need some musical chairs to change seats here. Well, thanks for filling in because I could not have testified today before the Constitution Committee had you not been filling in for us.
SPEAKER 06 :
Well, let’s start with what you shared.
SPEAKER 07 :
Well, it really was focused on the Southern Poverty Law Center kind of connecting the thread from what happened here in August of 2012 when we had a gunman come in our building to kill us, shot Leo Johnson, who was able to stop him. Through to 2017 when our friend, my former Louisiana colleague, Steve Scalise was shot at a congressional baseball practice. He had been labeled by the Southern Poverty Law Center. And then, most recently, Charlie Kirk, also labeled by the Southern Poverty Law Center and assassinated there on that college campus. Of course, we were labeled in 2010. We were the first to be labeled. Of course, now there’s dozens and dozens of Christians in conservative organizations. But, Jody, what was most ironic, I should say, is that the Democrats on the committee complaining that the Republicans were having this hearing and that this would marginalize, intimidate and silence the Southern Poverty Law Center and civil rights organizations that want to speak out. Duh. That’s why we’re here. That’s exactly what the Southern Poverty Law Center is doing. And my point was they have every right to do that. The issue is not what they say or the fact that they have a map. It’s who uses the map and amplifies their voice. The government should not be using an advocacy organization that has a left wing ideology or a right wing, for that matter. It should be a neutral, peer reviewed criteria for elevating a standard of what they call as a hate group.
SPEAKER 06 :
So is that the message you hope sticks with this subcommittee? I do.
SPEAKER 07 :
So there’s really three levels of this. And people don’t realize how the Southern Poverty Law Center has utilized the federal government using it. The media uses them as some type of arbiter, you know, to use the sports analogy. I said, you know, they’re like a player but a referee and the announcer. And they’re the ones blowing the whistle on the other side when they don’t like what they’re saying. And so they’re not only at the federal government, they’re at the state level. We actually have law enforcement that has utilized their list. And most frightening, Jody, is that they have a curriculum that they’re putting into public schools. It used to be called teaching tolerance. They’ve changed the name of it now. But their ideology is being used in our public schools Again, supposedly to be this neutral viewpoint on these issues when, in fact, it’s a leftist ideology.
SPEAKER 06 :
Yeah. Unbelievable that they could even call teaching tolerance. I mean, their view is anything but. So what was your feel, Tony, of the members of the committee? What was your take on how on both sides of the aisle, how they were receiving the information? Well.
SPEAKER 07 :
First off, on the Republican side, it was, frankly, for a subcommittee, it was well attended. It was a long, we’ve been up there for a couple hours. The members were well informed, asked, I think, good questions. You’ve been there before. Most of the members, especially when we look at the Democratic side, are not there to gain any information. In fact, a couple on the Democratic side were making statements totally unrelated to the topic just because it was a platform for them to attack the Trump administration.
SPEAKER 06 :
Right. Right. Yeah, that’s that’s unfortunately try to get the bullet point and get a sound bite that the news. So was there any media in attendance and what do you hope the media?
SPEAKER 07 :
Well, I think there was some. We’ll see what kind of media comes from it. But again, I think the bottom line message was that. the SPLC is not a neutral arbiter. It should not be seen as a referee of what is hate speech or what is not hate speech. But the reality is it’s not about the speech. They say they’re trying to stop violence. Well, none of the conservative groups that they’ve labeled have ever advocated for violence. And there is no consistent definition. There’s no objective definition of what hate or anything else based upon what they label exists. It’s all subjective. It’s all ideologically driven. It’s not based upon behavior. I mean, if organizations are out there advocating for violence or engaging in violence, sure, label them. But that’s not what’s happening here. These are just people they’re ideologically opposed to. And corporations use this. So it’s government uses it. Corporations use it. The media uses it. And what it does is it chills speech. It marginalizes conservative organizations so that the left can advance their agenda.
SPEAKER 06 :
Yeah, absolutely. You know, it’s just amazing to me how the lack of definition, I think that’s an excellent point. There has to be definitions. Right. Objective. Objective definitions. So we’ve only got a little over a minute left here. What needs to happen from here? Where’s… Where do we go from here?
SPEAKER 07 :
Well, I think first off, again, I want to be very clear that this is not saying that the Southern Poverty Law Center does not have a right to speak. They do. But government and the media and the corporations should not facilitate an organization that characterizes law abiding citizens and organizations in ways that suggest violence against against them. Like Floyd Corkins coming into our building and shooting one of our people is somehow justified or that the assassin of Charlie Kirk is justified because of the views that Charlie Kirk or Turning Point USA or the Family Research Council espouses. So if we’re to come together as a divided nation, we need to have dialogue. conversations. We can differ on the opinions, but we have to have the conversation. The SPLC stands in the way.
SPEAKER 06 :
Absolutely. Well, Tony, personally, all of us here at FRC and across the country, thank you for taking this stand and for being a voice right now for this incredibly important issue. And thank you for rushing. I won’t ask how fast you were… On the way over here, but thank you so much. All right. Thank you, Jody. Merry Christmas. You look good in that chair, by the way. Thank you. All right, friends, stay tuned. Much more Washington Watch coming your way. A very important case developing in Southern California, the churches, what they went through during the COVID pandemic. So stay with us. We’ll be back right after this break.
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What is God’s role in government? What does the separation of church and state really mean? And how does morality shape a nation? President John Adams said our Constitution was made only for moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other. Join Family Research Council for God and Government, a powerful series that explores the connection between biblical principles and the American government, equipping you with truth to engage in today’s most pressing debates. We’ll uncover the foundations of our nation’s history and why it’s relevant for today. Join us to defend God’s plan for government because faith and freedom were never meant to be separate. You can view the course at prayvotestand.org slash godandgovernment or on the Stand Firm app.
SPEAKER 03 :
The book of Hebrews says that the Word of God is living and active, sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing to the division of soul and of spirit, of joints and of marrow, and discerning the thoughts and intentions of the heart. Stand on the Word is Family Research Council’s journey through the living and active Word of God. Follow the plan starting January 1st. Spend 10 to 15 minutes a day reading God’s Word, and over the course of two years, discover that the Bible is one big story, a story of many words pointing to the Word, the One who is the same yesterday, today, and forever. because the Word is alive and His name is Jesus. Find the Bible reading plan and daily devotionals from Tony Perkins at frc.org slash Bible. Join us as we stand on the Word.
SPEAKER 06 :
Well, good afternoon. Thank you so much for joining us today on Washington Watch. I’m Jody Heiss filling in for Tony, at least partially filling in for Tony. It was an honor to have him as our previous guest, but thank you for joining us as well. All right. If you have been tuning into Washington Watch over the past few years, there’s no doubt that you recall a case that we’ve been following for quite some time. It pits a church in San Jose, California against government officials who want to punish the church for holding large maskless gatherings during the COVID-19 pandemic. Well, that case may very well be headed now to the U.S. Supreme Court, which recently received a formal request to intervene. And here now to discuss this is Robert Tyler. He’s the president and chief counsel of Advocates for Faith and Freedom. He has represented Calvary Chapel senior pastor Mike McClure in this whole case. Bob, welcome back to Washington Watch. Thank you for joining me.
SPEAKER 05 :
Good to be with you again, Jody. Thank you for having us and presenting this case, which is so important.
SPEAKER 06 :
It really is extremely important. So we probably have some who are watching, listening right now who may not really know the details of this. So why don’t we start there? If you would, just give us some of the initial details of the case regarding Calvary Chapel, San Jose, and why was the church targeted to start with?
SPEAKER 05 :
Well, five years ago, it’s hard to believe that it’s been five years, but let’s not forget that five years ago, we were in lockdown, particularly here in California. Californians were told, you can’t go to church, you can’t worship, you can’t sit down in a service, you can’t sing, you can’t raise your hands, you can’t lay your hands on people, you can’t take communion, you can’t be baptized. These were things that were going on in California. In this month, five years ago, Pastor Mike McClure and the church had a restraining order that we were fighting off. Pastor Mike was being brought up on contempt charges in December and again in January, five years ago. And so we fought. And Pastor Mike convicted in his heart saying, this isn’t right. We have a First Amendment law. and we have a right to worship and the government can’t come in and tell us that you cannot pray with someone and lay hands on them, especially when at the time, people were not mass dying from COVID. They were dying from suicide. Kids were being abused by their abusers, locked in homes. It was a horrible time. And so Mike is standing and continues to stand, and we’re standing with him five years later. And last Friday, we filed a petition with the U.S. Supreme Court because the California court system has failed us, and they issued $1.2 million in fines, upheld those fines because the county of Santa Clara has fined this church and the courts agreed to uphold those fines. Although they started out at 4 million, we got them down substantially. But here we are today and a church is being fined. It’s not much different than what we’re seeing in South Korea right now, where you have just a lot of craziness going on over there with this new president over there. We got to be careful here in the United States.
SPEAKER 06 :
Yes, we do. So let’s unpack this a little bit further. The petition that you just referenced that you filed with the Supreme Court asking them to resolve some urgent constitutional questions. Unpack that a little bit further. What specifically are the constitutional issues at stake here?
SPEAKER 05 :
What’s at stake is the fact that under the free exercise clause of our United States Constitution, Back in 1990, Justice Scalia actually gave us this pretty bad interpretation of the Free Exercise Clause. And we’ve had some development positively. And frankly, if the California court had applied the law as the U.S. Supreme Court gave us some interpretation back five years ago, and California courts applied it properly, we wouldn’t be here today. But they didn’t apply it that way. And basically what it was, it said, look, you can’t go around and allow Costco to remain open and liquor stores and, you know, these places where you can have people go and, you know, nude dancing and all these other places that are open, not allow churches to remain open. And we’re saying the same thing. And here, they’re trying to say, well, this is about masks. You have to be wearing masks. And Pastor Mike’s saying, look, I’m a pastor. I’m not the mask police. If people want to come in and worship, we allow them to come in and worship. And so we’re saying that the government shouldn’t have the right to be able to step in and dictate how people are worshiping.
SPEAKER 06 :
Bob, let me just, let me stop you there. We’ve got less than a minute. Great, great answer there. But one other question. This is not just about a single church in California. This could potentially have much further reaching implications. Real quickly, is that true? What’s the case there?
SPEAKER 05 :
Yeah, you know, what we’re asking for is we’re actually asking for the court to take another look at this, how the court analyzes free exercise and actually go back to how it used to look at the free exercise clause even before it did in the early 1990s, when actually the free exercise clause meant much more. It had so much more strength to it. Because in the early 1990s, the court really weakened the free exercise clause. Now, and basically what happened is they weakened it so that government had a lot more leverage over churches and the free exercise of religion. We’re trying to give the leverage back to the free exercise of religion and take it away from government.
SPEAKER 06 :
Thank you, Bob Tyler, President and Chief Counsel of Advocates for Faith and Freedom. Incredibly important case. Thank you for breaking that down for us here on Washington Watch. Thanks, Jody. All right, and Merry Christmas to you as well. All right, coming up, friends, we’ve got a lot happening in Syria and elsewhere around the world. We’ll break that down for you right after the break, so stay with us.
SPEAKER 11 :
At Family Research Council, we believe religious freedom is a fundamental human right that all governments must protect. For years, Islamist militants in Nigeria have targeted Christians and other religious minority groups with brutal violence. Since 2009, 52,000 Christians have been slaughtered. A staggering 89% of Christian martyrs in the world today are from Nigeria. The first Trump administration declared Nigeria a country of particular concern, a designation reserved for countries whose governments engage in or tolerate religious freedom violations. However, this designation of Nigeria was quickly reversed by the Biden administration. Following consistent calls from FRC President Tony Perkins and other religious leaders across the U.S., President Donald Trump has responded.
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Christianity is facing an existential threat in Nigeria. Thousands and thousands of Christians are being killed. I am hereby making Nigeria a country of particular concern.
SPEAKER 11 :
This is a huge step forward for the protection of Christians in Nigeria as well as religious freedom across the world. While this opens the door for the U.S. government to pressure Nigerian leaders to protect vulnerable Christians, it is only the beginning. We must continue to pray diligently, work strategically, and stand firm for the protection of religious liberty across the globe.
SPEAKER 07 :
In times like these, we need something solid to stand on. That’s why I’m inviting you to join me on January the 1st for Stand on the Word, a daily journey through the entire Bible. Each day, we’ll read God’s Word together, discuss how to apply His truth to our lives, 15 minutes that can transform your year. Join me and thousands of others as we stand strong by standing on the Word of God. Text BIBLE to 67742. That’s BIBLE to 67742.
SPEAKER 03 :
Should a Christian support Israel? That question has become one of the most emotionally charged issues of our time, both in the world and within the church. Family Research Council President Tony Perkins offers a clear biblical and prophetic answer. In his latest book, he examines Israel’s past, present, and future through the lens of Scripture, revealing why support for Israel is not rooted in politics, partisanship, or cultural sentiment, but in the unchanging promises of God. Drawing from Genesis to Revelation, Tony Perkins demonstrates that the ultimate rationale for a Christian’s support for Israel is spiritual. Should a Christian Support Israel invites believers to see beyond headlines and ideologies, returning to the foundation of God’s Word to understand His heart for His chosen people and the blessings that flow when we stand with what He has established forever. Text the word Israel to 67742 for more information.
SPEAKER 06 :
Good afternoon. Welcome back to Washington Watch. I’m Jody Heiss filling in today for Tony. Thank you so much for joining us as well. Now, before I get to my next guest, I got a couple of quick action items that I want to put your way here. Of course, we’re coming to the end of the year, and I want to encourage you now to make an effort to strengthen your biblical worldview as we enter into 2026. And one of the best ways I know for you to do that is join us, the FRC team, as well as thousands of other believers across the country for our Stand on the Word two-year chronological journey through the entire Bible. Listen, we all know, take a little bit of time every day in God’s Word, it will transform your life. It will transform your family. It will transform your year. That’s why we’re doing it. We ask you to come along and join us. And for you to find out more details, just go to frc.org slash Bible or simply text the word Bible to 67742. Last quick thing I want to put your way is also as we approach the end of the year, Of course, our nation’s 250th anniversary is right around the corner and right in the middle of so much of what’s going to be taking place next year is Family Research Council. We’re going to be protecting the principles that our country was founded on, and we’re asking you to help us keep that message alive and effective. Right now, through the end of the year, through December 31st, every dollar you give to FRC will be doubled. We are so grateful to this special challenge match that has been provided for us to offer this. So, listen, now is your time to double your impact, and we ask you to come along with us to get more info on how to do that. Text the word AMERICA, AMERICA, to 67742. And thank you in advance for helping us out. Okay, let’s jump into this last segment. Syria’s Interior Ministry says that five people have been arrested for their connection to Saturday’s shooting that killed two different Iowa National Guard members and a civilian interpreter. The Interior Ministry has also described the gunman as a member of the Syrian Security Force who is suspected of sympathizing with the Islamic State terrorist group. Now, while details are certainly still emerging, but what’s come out so far has raised a lot of questions about the extent of violent extremist ideology among the Syrian interim government’s armed forces. Saturday shooting also reminds us of the security threat that the Islamic State continues to pose and joining me now to go deeper into all of this is once again FRC’s president Tony Perkins and our own Travis Weber as well. Gentlemen, thank you all for joining me once again for this. We got a lot that’s happening and going on here around the world, particularly with with. So Tony, let me kick it off with you and let you get us started. How would you address this?
SPEAKER 07 :
First off, this is not unlike some of the things we saw in Afghanistan, where we see this radicalization that is within the ranks of those that we’re trying to work with that we want to normalize relationships with. I think we’d have to understand that the very foundation of the Islamic world it’s going to raise questions. We have to approach it very, very carefully. And I would also say this. This is why members of Congress were raising questions about lifting the sanctions on Syria. The administration wanted to lift those sanctions. This was a big debate in the recently passed Defense Authorization Act, the NDAA, because removing the Caesar Act, which would remove these sanctions, really removes a lot of the economic leverage that we have over Syria. Their point, my point, I agree with them, is that, all right, let’s see action first. Let’s see the Syrian president. Let’s see the Syrian forces begin to protect the minorities, the Druze, the Christians that are being killed in Sueda in the southern part of Syria. And I think this is more evidence that we have some serious problems there.
SPEAKER 06 :
Yeah, absolutely. So with that, I know, Travis, you keep up so much that’s happening internationally on this. So as Tony was just sharing, terrorism is becoming more and more a problem. And the ties with Syria in all of this is an issue that has to be addressed. So there’s a lot of work to do.
SPEAKER 08 :
There is. And, you know, I think, Jody, as we reflect on what’s happening here, we cannot escape the importance of looking underneath at a society’s foundation and core and its people and its culture in terms of understanding where it is and where it will go. We cannot avoid that. We can’t escape it. And for decades, the over secularization of the West has inhibited our ability to diagnose and understand issues of religion overseas, whether Islamic radicalism, religious freedom for all people. And now in this case in Syria, I understand President Trump wants to move into a new era with the new president of Syria. You know, he’s coming to the U.S. He wants to move ahead. We have a reality, though. That reality is the history and foundations of Syria and of the people and the ideologies at play there. The Syrians are diverse. They’re not all the same makeup. But we can’t avoid addressing things like what’s leading this person to kill U.S. service members.
SPEAKER 07 :
Well, and you also have the history of the president there in Syria who was a terrorist. And so how aggressively will he pursue those elements within his own ranks? And this is, we were talking about this earlier today, very similar to the situation we see in Nigeria. The Nigerian government is not persecuting Christians. They’re just not tolerating it. They’re allowing it. They’re allowing the Muslim, the Fuluanis, they’re allowing Boko Haram to operate with almost impunity. And so it’s the issue of how aggressive is the Syrian government. And I understand they’re fractured. I understand that the infrastructure there is poor. But this is going to be a good case study to see how aggressive they are.
SPEAKER 08 :
I think we need to see concrete plans and evidence of progress on human rights and religious freedom. You know, Tony, we know the history of the Northeast government, Kurdish-led area in the Northeast that was at war with Assad. That area helped the United States defeat ISIS. And they’re currently still holding many, many ISIS prisoners, fighters, and their families. They’re still in jails controlled by the forces in this Kurdish area of Northeast Syria, which under the new regime, the new regime, plan being brokered, in theory, they’re supposed to unify certain aspects of that with the central government. But with the central government’s ties to jihadism, historically, what do we think is going to come? We need to approach that very clear eye.
SPEAKER 07 :
And their attachment to Turkey. Right. Because Erdogan has targeted the northeast portion of Syria because he does not like the free counsel there and the work that has been done to really create… probably the strongest place outside of Israel for religious freedom in the Middle East.
SPEAKER 08 :
Yeah. And Tony, I think this, you know, we reflect on the Middle East, you know, who is seeking to promote advanced freedom? Israel. In a sea of nations which are different stages of or different you know, levels of their engagement with this concept. Some are just very, very hostile. And sometimes it’s the culture more so than the government. But we cannot escape the fact that Islam is prevalent in all of these nations. And I think for us in the U.S., this is important to bring to light because we have to, we cannot avoid, a society is not just a matter of some deals, some things on paper, which are important to move us ahead, but we can’t stop there. We have to go further to dig deep to the foundations and say, what THAT MAKES A TRUE JUST SOCIETY.
SPEAKER 06 :
THERE’S SO MANY OBSTACLES FROM EVERY PERSPECTIVE WITH THE NEW GOVERNMENT COMING IN AND ALL THESE OTHER THINGS. I MEAN, THE PEOPLE OF SYRIA OBVIOUSLY ARE NOT OUT OF THE WOODS THEMSELVES WITH ALL THIS, BUT NEITHER ARE CHRISTIANS WITH THIS. SO WHAT ARE YOU HEARING in relation to the Christians in Syria?
SPEAKER 08 :
So I think, Jody, this is interesting because it’s such a diverse group. You have traditional Orthodox believers who have their own kind of even within Eastern Orthodoxy, different churches within Eastern Orthodoxy, you’ve been there for many, many years, right, and had a certain status under Assad that was, you know, maybe tolerated or left alone that, you know, jihadists are not going to take the same approach to them. On the other hand, you have this Kurdish run area in the Northeast, which featured or had some of those older churches, but you had Muslim background converts, more evangelicals, and you have other denominations in between. And this is not even dealing with the other minorities in Syria. So you have a big spectrum of minority communities. There are differences of view and opinion. among those communities based on their own experiences and based on what they think is going to achieve freedom and religious freedom for them. So I think we have to listen to them, but we need to advocate for religious freedom for all of them in the best way we can.
SPEAKER 06 :
Fascinating discussion, gentlemen. I want to thank you for joining us for this. I also want to get a congressional perspective on all of this. And joining me now to go further from that perspective is Congressman Marlon Stutzman, who is one of the first, in fact, one of the first members of Congress to actually visit Syria and meet with the country’s new president there after the fall of the brutal Assad regime. He represents the 3rd Congressional District of Indiana. Congressman Stutzman, welcome back to Washington Watch. Thank you for joining me. Jody, great to be with you. Thanks for having me on. Well, listen, we’re in the midst of an incredible discussion about what’s happening in Syria with the attacks that have recently taken place. Let me get your take on what’s happening there in Syria and what needs to be done to help resolve this issue.
SPEAKER 04 :
Yeah, well, first of all, thanks for putting attention on this particular issue, because the reason that I got involved, I have Syrian Americans that live in Indiana in the Midwest that have become very good friends. Of course, I have missionary friends in Syria, a lot of Christians that are there. Syria is very diverse in its population, and we want to make sure that every group is protected. And that’s why this moment in time is really unique, because Syria has been under the Assad family regime for over 50 years. Now that Assad is gone and al-Shar is the president, we want to be sure that this is an opportunity that we don’t miss, that we can not only stabilize Syria and be sure that the people there that are wanting freedom and stability have that opportunity, but it’s also a way to help stabilize the region. And, of course, with it being on the northern border with Israel, we want to make sure that we get this right. And President Trump is the strongest leader and negotiator since Ronald Reagan, and he has met with President al-Shara, the new leader there, He has a very checkered past. And I believe that President Trump is going to be the difference-maker to be sure that the next leader of Syria doesn’t allow for these events to happen that happened this last weekend, where several Americans were killed.
SPEAKER 06 :
And that checkered past is indeed was concerning and waves a red flag to many of us. Now, I mentioned a while ago that I think I did that. But you have been there personally. I mean, you have visited Syria. What from your perspective, from what you saw, are some of the major obstacles that they have right now?
SPEAKER 04 :
Well, the major obstacle is extreme Islam, the jihadist movement that is in the Middle East. That is the biggest hurdle. You know, as we saw even the attack on Israel back in October of 2023, it came from the Gaza Strip with Hamas and their group of people that they had convinced to attack Israel. As I learned more, we know that Hamas actually wanted Iran and Hezbollah and the Houthis to join with them in that attack. There was supposed to be a coordinated effort. Thankfully, that fell apart. But, still, at the same time, over 2,000 Israelis were killed because of just the attack from Hamas. So this hatred is the problem in the Middle East. And that’s what I believe why we need to be involved and put pressure on the new Syrian government, that that sort of thought And that sort of action needs to be terminated. It needs to be extinguished, that we need stability for all the people in Syria. Many people there, of course, want it. But these foreign fighters and these jihadists that are there continue to be the problem.
SPEAKER 06 :
So I think you bring up an interesting point. I think the next question is, therefore, how do you deal with hate? What do you think our country needs to be doing right now? What would you think this administration needs to do to resolve this potential conflict?
SPEAKER 04 :
Well, I mean, I personally believe, Jody, that a belief in God and a belief that life is a gift from God is how we find our way to respecting one another, even if we have a different opinion on religious views. I believe that Jesus Christ is my savior and his words taught us all to love one another. And that’s where we as Christians in this moment from America, have this opportunity to stand for life, to stand for respecting one another, and to show that we can agree to disagree. America, we are the example of that. And that’s why it’s important even here in the United States that religious freedom be protected, that free speech be protected. I think that’s the fundamental foundation that Syria needs to build their new government on are those rights that we are going to allow people to believe how they choose to believe, and we’re going to respect that, rather than putting people to death for disagreements. I mean, just like Charlie Kirk was assassinated for his beliefs here in America, that’s why this is such a critical issue, that we protect religious freedom, we teach it to our children, We help our communities understand that, while we have differences, we can believe that we all have the right to life, that we have the right to our constitutional rights, that those need to be fought for every day. And I hope that that’s the message we can send to Syria.
SPEAKER 06 :
I hope so too. Do you see less than a minute we have left here? Do you see the will in Congress and in the White House to tighten the screws on Syria to help guide them through this?
SPEAKER 04 :
yeah i do i really do and you know when i visited back in april there’s a lot of poverty there there’s a lot of destruction there that happened from the assad regime i mean he just destroyed his country you know whether it’s an electric grid or whether it’s gas stations at work nothing nothing really works there at all so it’s it’s been completely demolished so that’s why i still believe we need to to lift the sanctions, to move forward, to help the Syrian people. And then we need to really be sure that the al-Shara government follows what President Trump and many of us want to see happen in Syria, to build a relationship with Israel, join the Abraham Accords in the long run, and be a strong, consistent place that is going to stabilize the Middle East and not be a place where terrorism can flourish.
SPEAKER 06 :
Thank you so much, Indiana Congressman Marlon Stutzman. I also want to thank Tony Perkins, president here at FRC, and Travis Weber, vice president for policy and government affairs. That’s all the time we have for today. I want to thank you so much for joining us on this edition of Washington Watch. Hope you have a fantastic evening. We’ll see you next time right here.
SPEAKER 02 :
Washington Watch with Tony Perkins is brought to you by Family Research Council. To support our efforts to advance faith, family, and freedom, please text GIVE to 67742. That’s GIVE to 67742. Portions of the show discussing candidates are brought to you by Family Research Council Action. For more information, please visit TonyPerkins.com.
