In today’s episode of Family Talk, Dr. James Dobson sits down with Paul and Sandy Coughlin to explore the intriguing and often misunderstood concept of being a ‘Christian Nice Guy.’ The conversation delves into the societal pressures and misconceptions that men face in distinguishing between being ‘nice’ and being truly ‘good.’ Paul shares insights from his book, discussing how nurturing masculinity God’s way can have profound effects on families and communities.
You’re listening to Family Talk, the radio broadcasting division of the James Dobson Family Institute. I am that James Dobson, and I’m so pleased that you’ve joined us today.
SPEAKER 01 :
Well, welcome to Family Talk. I’m Roger Marsh. Have you ever felt like being the nice guy has actually held you back in life? Like your desire to avoid conflict has actually kept you from standing up for what’s right or even from being the leader your family needs? Well, on today’s edition of Dr. James Dobson’s Family Talk, we’re exploring a provocative topic that challenges conventional thinking about what it means to be a godly man. Our guests in studio are Paul and Sandy Coughlin. Paul is the best-selling author of eight books and a nationally recognized expert on bullying prevention. In fact, his anti-bullying curriculum is used all across North America and all around the world. You might have seen him on Good Morning America, ABC’s Nightline, or as a contributor on Fox News. Well, today here on Family Talk, we’ll be focusing on Paul’s groundbreaking book called No More Christian Nice Guy, which makes a crucial distinction between being quote-unquote nice Nice and Being Good. Sandy Coughlin is a successful blogger who shares her perspective as the wife of the self-described recovering nice guy. Together with Paul, she co-authored Married But Not Engaged. Love that title. And it was a book designed to help couples navigate the challenges when husbands struggle with passivity. The Coughlins have three adult children and make their home in Central Oregon. So let’s listen in now to this fascinating conversation with Dr. James Dobson on today’s edition of Family Talk.
SPEAKER 04 :
You know, God created two sexes, not one, and it works best when the two are distinct. And those temperaments, those characteristics of the personality that are identified with masculinity and femininity should be preserved. And we’re going to talk a little about that today. In my book, Love Must Be Tough, I wrote a little bit about that. And I did it again in bringing up boys. And now another author has come along and has expanded on those observations and taken them to their logical conclusion. And I have his book here in front of me. It’s called No More Christian Nice Guy. And the subtitle is When Being Nice Instead of Good Hurts Men More. Women and Children. And we’re going to talk about that because the title is provocative and requires some explanation. And that’s what we’re going to do today. Paul Coughlin is the author of this book. And his articles have appeared everywhere. in numerous publications, including Today’s Christian Woman, New Man Magazine, Passage Magazine, and Crosswalk.com. He’s been interviewed by C-SPAN and the New York Times, American Family Radio, and the Moody Broadcasting Network. Paul, it is really good to have you here.
SPEAKER 02 :
It is a pleasure to be here. Thank you very much, Dr. Dobson.
SPEAKER 04 :
You’ve apparently kind of been tracking me kind of closely.
SPEAKER 03 :
You’ve quoted me rather generously through your books. I think I’ve quoted you more than any other author.
SPEAKER 02 :
I’m a big fan of what you do.
SPEAKER 04 :
Paul also considers himself a recovering nice guy. There is a biographical connection here somewhere. This is the first time that Paul has been here along with Sandy, his wife. And I’m delighted that they have come, especially to talk about a book that I find very provocative and interesting. Speaking of Sandy, she’s here with us, too. There was such an overwhelming response to No More Christian Nice Guy that these two folks decided to write a book for the wives of these men entitled Miracles. Married but Not Engaged, Why Men Check Out and What You Can Do to Create the Intimacy You Desire. We’re going to talk about both those books in some detail today. So Sandy and Paul, well, I’ve already welcomed Paul. Sandy, I’m glad that you came along as well.
SPEAKER 05 :
Thank you, Dr. Dobson.
SPEAKER 04 :
Did it surprise you what the response to this first book has been?
SPEAKER 05 :
Because I live the life not really, we kind of expected that we would get the response that we did, and sure enough. So we’re excited to be able to help people.
SPEAKER 04 :
Well, you’re also a full-time mom.
SPEAKER 05 :
Full-time mom.
SPEAKER 04 :
Got three kids.
SPEAKER 05 :
Three kids.
SPEAKER 04 :
Ages.
SPEAKER 05 :
Work at home, 14, 12, and 10.
SPEAKER 03 :
And the 10-year-old’s a baby.
SPEAKER 05 :
10-year-old’s a baby.
SPEAKER 03 :
Spoiled rotten.
SPEAKER 05 :
Spoiled rotten.
SPEAKER 02 :
But Dr. Dobson, she could run the house. She could. She’s like Sandy. They are a spitting image of each other. Same temperament, very assertive, vivacious, active, sympathetic people.
SPEAKER 04 :
Well, you’re going to have adolescence all over the place before very long. Are you ready for that?
SPEAKER 05 :
Well, we’ve been listening to your tapes.
SPEAKER 02 :
On the long trips, yeah. Oh, you betcha. You betcha. One of my oldest boy, well, I guess I can go ahead and say this isn’t too bad. What we do is, I don’t know if you advise this or not, we don’t tell them that the tapes are coming up. We get into the car and we’re going to have a long trip and we say, hey, we really want to talk about some stuff and And this guy’s really got it down. So let’s listen to him. You’re sneaky is what you are. We’re shrewd as serpents. And so what did he do? He took all the pillows. He was in the passenger seat. He was wondering, why am I in the passenger seat?
SPEAKER 05 :
And mom sat in the back.
SPEAKER 02 :
And so he put all the pillows. He made this little fortress around himself because he just didn’t want to talk about it. It wasn’t you. It was adolescence. Yeah. And it was one of the best trips we ever took. The pillows came down. We had some great conversations. Because, of course, we would stop it and then just talk about our own experiences without putting anyone down or anything. And I think he’ll remember that for the rest of his life, I’m sure.
SPEAKER 04 :
Well, you’re talking about the tape series, Preparing for Adolescence. Many people don’t know that that was recorded not for your use but mine. My daughter was 13. My son was 8. And Danae was going into adolescence, and I felt the need to tell her some things that were coming that she didn’t know. And so I wrote and then recorded that series just for her and then later for Ryan. And the people at our church heard about it and said, could we use it for our junior hires? And so I allowed them to do that. And the word began to spread and people started saying, I want a copy of that. And that’s when it was then published and released. So it’s still out there all these years later.
SPEAKER 02 :
Outstanding resource.
SPEAKER 04 :
Well, I find the story of your son interesting because when he put the pillows over his head, what he was actually saying is, I’ve been had. He thought this was going to be a fun trip, and all of a sudden he got it. Well, let’s talk about your book. You acknowledge that men should be good but should not be nice. And I’m sure many of our listeners are saying, what in the world is the difference between the two?
SPEAKER 02 :
And that’s a great question to ask and they should ask it. It’s the difference between enabling really and being a redemptive force for good in this world. For example, you have a relative and that relative is unable to make their rent payment and you are asked to pay it for them. You soon discover that the reason why your relative isn’t making the house payment is because your relative is addicted to drugs. Well, a nice person who wants to alleviate discomfort will go ahead and pay the rent for that person. But the good person will come along and say, well, you know, the reason why you’re not making the rent is that you’re making really bad choices with your life. And so the rent really isn’t the issue. It’s your drug addiction. That’s the problem. So I’m going to help you. You don’t need money for the rent. What you need is rehabilitation. I’m going to pay for that. And usually if the person on drugs is unrepentant. hasn’t hit rock bottom yet, they’ll probably tell them to hit the highway. Well, that’s okay. A good person is willing to do that. A good person is willing to enter into conflict for redemptive purposes. A nice person doesn’t have it in them. Ask yourself this fundamental question of the people who you think are the nicest people you know. Do they ever stand up to injustice? In most cases, most of the time, the answer is no. They don’t have the moral courage or the backbone to do it. My book deals with the fact that what we often call niceness is really fake. It’s fear and passivity in disguise. It is a vice disguised as a virtue. And you’re linking that to masculinity primarily. Yeah, because it’s so painful for men. We are very much expected to be the one who goes out there and slay the dragons. And that makes sense and that’s the way it should be. What if you don’t have that temperament? What if it doesn’t exist as it did for me at one time? What do you do? Usually you beat yourself over the head and you just quietly submit to the rhythms of life and you just fade into the background and get under the radar of life. But what happens to your life? It falls apart. You think that by avoiding conflict, You’re going to get to the abundant life Jesus has for you. You’ll never get there.
SPEAKER 04 :
And you feel, and I’m inclined to agree, that this is taught in the scripture, but people often miss it. In my office a few minutes ago, I was decrying the use of the phrase little Jesus meek and mild. I never found it that way in the scripture. I don’t find him that way in my personal relationship with him. Jesus was a strong, strong man. He was also a man of great compassion. Absolutely. And so how do you fit the two together?
SPEAKER 02 :
His compassion gave him part of that strength. This is not a either-or situation. Jesus could be incredibly tender. For example, how he dealt with children and women in his time was simply revolutionary. People did not do that the way he did. At the same time, he could be incredibly tough, calling an entire group of people brood of vipers, fit for hell, children of the devil, hypocrites. Those aren’t terms of endearment. Those are tough words. Those can get you in a lot of trouble in life and apparently got him into a lot of trouble. But Jesus did – Yeah, driving the money changers out. With a whip, no less. And what we forget is he made the whip himself. That was not a spur-of-the-moment thing. It was premeditated. We’re told that in the Gospel of John. So Jesus’ toughness – was done for a reason. He wasn’t showing off the way many of us do. He didn’t get mad or outraged for small, petty reasons the way we often do, like if our cable bill goes up $3 a month. Well, that outrages us. We’re not talking about petty things here. We’re talking about things of eternal consequences, of groups stopping people from coming to God’s love and acceptance and salvation, from people… putting heavy burdens on others and not willing to lift those burdens themselves. And we see this often in our own lives. Christian men, if they want to be like Jesus, have full authority. They’re fully authorized to be both tender and tough, just depending on what virtue calls for at the time.
SPEAKER 04 :
Sandy, Paul talked about the fact that he is a recovering nice guy. Did you know him when he was a nice guy and maybe not a good guy?
SPEAKER 05 :
I did, Dr. Dobson. I knew him as a nice guy, but I didn’t know at the time because when I got married, I just thought all guys should be nice guys. But what I didn’t know was that fear was really driving Paul, and I didn’t understand that.
SPEAKER 04 :
Fear of rejection?
SPEAKER 05 :
Well, I didn’t know what the fear was at the time. We teach our kids about fear, false evidence that appears real. For Paul, it was how he grew up, situations when he grew up that it just really caused him to be a passive person.
SPEAKER 04 :
Did that bother you in the early days?
SPEAKER 05 :
It did. It did. It bothered me in the early days and it caused conflict between us because I would find myself walking on eggshells around Paul and I didn’t know why. It was very frustrating because he wasn’t clear on his wants and his needs. And then another biggie would be he would dismiss my feelings.
SPEAKER 02 :
Yeah.
SPEAKER 04 :
Not the proudest moments of my life.
SPEAKER 05 :
Yeah.
SPEAKER 04 :
You know, I have seen this so many times and I don’t know if I can put it into words. I think you’ve done it better than I can. But I think many divorces come right out of this factor where a woman wants a man that she can look up to. Absolutely. But one who won’t look down on her.
SPEAKER 05 :
Mm-hmm.
SPEAKER 04 :
That is the combination. And if a guy is kind of wimpy and he doesn’t defend the family and he lets his wife run over him at times when he should stand up and say, you know, this is not right and I’m not going to support you in that. There is a place for being a strong man and a strong father. And the moment you say something like that, and I bet you’ve had it from people who think you’re talking about running roughshod over your wife and abusing your kids and you’re mean and unloving and uncaring because you’re strong. That’s not what we’re talking about.
SPEAKER 02 :
Well, I tell you what, they have a video camera in my home. It’s just not my nature necessarily to be that way. But you’re right. I mean the biggest criticism I get – there’s two groups that largely criticize me but it’s rare – is I call them the 60s holdout. They’re still holding on to the love of the one you’re with, Peter, Paul and Mary, folk singer thing where there’s no conflict and you’re not supposed to do this, you’re not supposed to do that. No boundaries. It’s crazy the things they say to me. And yeah, they see it as a license, I guess, for men to be abusive. There is no way you can read my book and argue by the end of it that it’s an excuse to be a jerk. I mean, I defend Fred Rogers in this book and I go after pro wrestling. So I don’t know how someone can say that. I guess if they judge it by the cover, I suppose.
SPEAKER 05 :
Well, I think I first saw it in the workplace with Paul. He wouldn’t stand up to his boss.
SPEAKER 04 :
Were you talking to him about that when you observed that and saw it? Yes.
SPEAKER 05 :
I’m defending him, but our book goes into what a woman should and should not do if you’re married to a nice guy. And so we would have conflict with each other because I would be, you know, I was more the vivacious one in the marriage world.
SPEAKER 02 :
Yeah, passive guys often marry vivacious women. Art people marry their people. And it’s real funny on television, but it’s not funny in real life, I can tell you that.
SPEAKER 05 :
So for an assertive woman, you know, when you have a passive man, talk about frustrating. And so we call it the bazooka of shame. Paul and I call it that. I would pull out the bazooka of shame. It would be so easy for me when he wasn’t doing what I thought that he should be doing to pull that out and let the words fly. And for a nice guy, what that does, it pushes them deeper down into their nice guy ice cave.
SPEAKER 02 :
Even there he wouldn’t defend himself. Wouldn’t defend himself. Well, because as a nice guy, you don’t think you’re allowed to defend yourself. That’s one of the huge things. She talked earlier about fear. That fear comes from someplace. It’s not what God wants for us. He wants to give us a spirit of power and self-control. This is what Paul wrote to Timothy. So this is not what God wants for men. He doesn’t want this for his men. But when you have fear in the driver’s seat of your life, you’re never going to get to the abundant life Jesus has for you.
SPEAKER 04 :
Amen. Paul and Sandy, tell us how the definition of masculinity has changed because this has something to do with those 60s that you were talking about and the feminist movement and what impact it has had on men and on culture at large.
SPEAKER 02 :
Well, men have been marginalized. We have been told we’re disposable. It wasn’t really funny, but remember the statement in the 90s that men were simply sperm donors? Yes. We were basically reduced to our ability to – in the creation of life and then we weren’t needed as fathers. Now, information that used to be on the radical fringe when I was in college, there was this idea that actually – Two women could raise a child, particularly boys, better than a traditional family of a husband and wife. Now, back then in the 80s, we laughed at that idea. You’re not endorsing that, obviously. Oh, absolutely not. Back in the 80s, that was an idea that was on the radical fringe. Well, today it’s a best-selling book. And so not only have we been told that we all – has been needed from us is sperm in the donation process. of the creation of life, and then from there, go ahead and take your hands off of kids. Now we’re being told that we are bad. We do it worse than if two women were to raise a child. Even when the statistics tell us otherwise, University of Virginia has some great work put out by a man named Brad Wilcox, who clearly shows that that the influence of a father and a mother just can’t be beat, and that men, or rather fathers, have a unique connection with children, a unique ability to grow them into successful adults that wouldn’t be there otherwise.
SPEAKER 04 :
One of my observations that I probably will do some more writing about one of these days, but through the late 60s and the 70s, and the 80s and into the 90s, the feminist movement was telling the world and the world seemed to believe that males and females are not different except for the ability to bear children, that everything else is culturally induced and everything is biased in the way boys are raised versus girls and so on. And so that’s what we believe. Then new medical technology came along that allowed us to look at the brain without opening the skull because it was very difficult to get for that. And they found that the brain of a woman lights up in a different place than the brain of a man with the same stimulation. And then from there, it’s gone on to be demonstrated that males and females are vastly different in brain structure and in behavior and thought patterns and many, many other inabilities. Now, The feminist movement should have at that point said, whoops, we made a big mistake. We’ve been telling you something that’s wrong all this time. We apologize. We’ve misled a lot of people. No, what they did is they made a little shift and now they say men and women are far different now. And women are better.
SPEAKER 02 :
Yeah, there you go.
SPEAKER 04 :
And men are nothing. Men are jerks. Men are stupid guys. And you just watch television, and that comes through in every commercial and every sitcom, and it makes me sick.
SPEAKER 02 :
And it makes a number of people sick who don’t come at life from a more conservative perspective. We have a lovely older couple that we are friends with, and they’re not conservatives necessarily. But they look at how men are, particularly the woman, the wife, looks at how men are portrayed in the media and she can’t stand it. And why can’t she stand it? Because her grandchildren are seeing this and they’re getting this. It’s not even a subtle message anymore that they are buffoons. So why don’t you just give up? Why don’t you just give up?
SPEAKER 04 :
What you are really saying in this book, I think, is that masculinity is God’s design and it’s different from femininity and it’s being assaulted. Absolutely. And it has a very important place in culture and in the family. And even for Christians who have this image of Jesus as being kind of a wimp.
SPEAKER 03 :
Yeah.
SPEAKER 04 :
are teaching that to their boys, and as a result, boys don’t know how to lead.
SPEAKER 02 :
Absolutely. And, you know, a lot of us have masculinity, Ron. You know, we have this machismo culture, right? It says, well, being a man is that you have to kill something. Or, you know, in Christian circles, being a man means is that you somehow turn into a pacifist. I’ve never understood that. We are neither pacifists or jihadists. We are active warriors of light in a world that’s at war with truth. That’s the fact. That’s what the Gospels tell us. So both camps need to change their definition of what it means to be a guy. Being a guy means you’re emotional. Being a guy means you love people and you hurt for them and you weep with those who weep. It also means that you protect people when they need to be protected. Yeah, and stand up for righteousness. Absolutely.
SPEAKER 04 :
The title of the book is No More Christian Nice Guy by Paul Coughlin. And the subtitle is When Being Nice Instead of Good Hurts Men, Women, and Children. It hurts everybody. And then Paul, you and Sandy wrote the second book, which is sort of a sequel. I haven’t quite figured that out. But it’s Married But Not Engaged, telling a woman primarily how to deal with a passive relationship. man and how to encourage strength within him. And Sandy, I want to hear a whole lot more from you next time on this subject. Paul and Sandy, thanks for being with us and thanks for the work you do. It’s interesting stuff because I happen to agree with it.
SPEAKER 02 :
Thank you.
SPEAKER 04 :
Good to have you on the program today.
SPEAKER 01 :
The difference between being nice and being truly good cuts right to the heart of biblical masculinity. You’ve been listening to Dr. James Dobson’s Family Talk, featuring a challenging conversation Dr. Dobson had with his guests, Paul and Sandy Coughlin. They’ve been discussing what it means to be a godly man in today’s culture. and not just a Christian nice guy. Now, if you’d like to revisit any part of today’s program with Paul and Sandy, remember you can find it when you go online at drjamesdobson.org forward slash family talk. And while you’re there, be sure to check out Paul’s book, No More Christian Nice Guy, along with the book that Paul co-authored with his wife, Sandy, the follow-up called Married But Not Engaged. You’ll find both of those resources and more when you go to drjamesdobson.org forward slash family talk. Now, speaking of strengthening men and fathers, if you’re a father looking to lead your families with greater purpose and confidence, we invite you to sign up for our Strong Dads email series. In today’s culture, your children need guidance, strength, and godly leadership now more than ever before. The Strong Dads email series provides practical tips and timeless biblical wisdom to help you step into your God-given role as a husband and father. To sign up for the free Strong Dads email series, visit drjamesdobson.org. Well, the conversation we heard today reminds us why biblical truth matters so deeply for our families. In a world that seeks to redefine marriage, to confuse our children about their God-given identity, and to diminish the value of human life, your partnership here at Family Talk helps us stand firm. Your tax-deductible donation, whether $25, $50, $100, maybe even $500 or $1,000, will have twice the power to strengthen marriages, support parents, and raise godly children thanks to a special dollar-for-dollar match each day during the month of June. So take advantage of this limited time opportunity to double your impact by making a secure donation online at drjamesdobson.org. And when you give a gift of any amount today, we’ll be happy to thank you for that contribution by sending you a copy of Dr. Dobson’s powerful book called Your Legacy, along with the companion DVD. In these challenging times when culture seeks to destroy our children’s faith, this resource shows you how to build an unshakable spiritual heritage for your children. You can request your copy of Dr. Dobson’s book, Your Legacy, along with the companion DVD when you make a donation of any amount online at drjamesdobson.org. You can also send your donation through the mail when you write to Dr. James Dobson’s Family Talk, PO Box 39000, Colorado Springs, Colorado. The zip code 80949. Well, I’m Roger Marsh, thanking you for spending some time with us today. Be sure to join us again next time for part two of this compelling conversation about Christian nice guys in modern culture. That’s coming up on the next edition of Dr. James Dobson’s Family Talk. This has been a presentation of the Dr. James Dobson Family Institute.
