Join us in this enlightening episode as we delve into the much-debated topic of the pre-tribulation rapture. Steve Schwetz and Dr. J. Vernon McGee offer insight into theological arguments surrounding this doctrine, unraveling misconceptions about its origins and biblical basis. Throughout the episode, Dr. McGee sheds light on the role of women in church settings, emphasizing how historical misinterpretations have led to widespread confusion. The conversation also addresses the miraculous nature of the star that guided the wise men to Bethlehem, along with a host of listener questions exploring theological nuances.
00:00:00 Introduction to the Pre-Tribulation Rapture
The pre-tribulation rapture is an event that is anticipated by many evangelical Christians today. However, there are many who doubt the validity of this doctrine, saying that it came from the prophecy of a young girl during a tongues meeting and propagated by Dr. C.I. Schofield. Join us to find out what the Bible has to say about the rapture and when it will occur.
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of foundation ye saints of the Lord is laid for your faith in his excellent word what more can he say than
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This is Steve Schwetz welcoming you to another edition of the Question and Answer program with our Bible teacher, Dr. J. Vernon McGee, who for over 30 years answered the many questions of his listeners. So why don’t you pull up a chair and open your Bible and prepare yourself for the wit and wisdom Dr. McGee brings to the teaching of God’s Word. A listener in Eagle Springs, North Carolina starts today’s program by saying, I recently heard a sermon from 1 Corinthians chapter 14. The pastor said that women were commanded to be silent once, but men were commanded to be silent twice in the same passage. Why is this never explained by others who preach on this subject?
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I’m reading now, beginning here at verse 28. He said, But if there be no interpreter, let him keep silence in the church, and let him speak to himself and to God. And that doesn’t mean in an unknown tongue. That means if there’s a man there that’s a foreigner, and he’s speaking in a tongue nobody can understand, why he’s to keep quiet. Actually, all through this section, the word unknown tongue is not there, it’s just tongue, that’s all. And it means not an unknown one because somebody is to be there to interpret it. Now, if there’s no interpreter there, then the man is to keep silence. That’s good. I’m glad this lady found this out. That’s very excellent. And twice men are told to keep silence and women are only told to keep silent once. I’m going to read verse 29 now. Verse 29 Let the prophet speak two or three, and let the other judge. Verse 29 If anything be revealed to another that sitteth by, let the first hold his peace. And may I say to you, to hold his peace would be to keep his mouth shut. So that it’s quite interesting here that Paul is urging silence, not speaking in tongues. Now he goes on here, and I think I should read this to be fair to the man. For ye may all prophesy one by one, that all may learn and all may be comforted. and the spirits of the prophets are subject to the prophets. For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints.” In any way you want to interpret this, you’ll have to interpret it that what is said in church has to make sense. If it doesn’t, it has no place in worship at all. For God is not the author of confusion but of peace, as in all the churches of the saints. Now he says, let your women keep silence in the churches, for it’s not permitted unto them to speak, but they’re commanded to be under obedience as also saith the law. Now what does it mean when it says women are to keep silence? It means they are not to speak in tongues in the church. It doesn’t mean that women can’t get up and speak in church. My, how this verse has been abused in the past. And you would think that women, you know, just didn’t have a chance. Well, believe me, they do have a chance. And I never shall forget when I first became pastor at the Church of the Open Door, that one of the missionary women came home and I had learned from the director of the mission that she had done an outstanding piece of work out on the mission field. And you know that nothing had been said about that. And she was to give a report and she was going to stand down on the lower platform. And when I got her to come up on the upper platform, she said, shall I stand at the pulpit? And I told her, I said, you have as much right at that pulpit as I do during this missionary conference. In fact, I’m not sure about what you’ve got more right than I have, because you can report from the mission field. And I think she felt very comfortable when she got up there to give her report, a very modest, humble missionary, and she gave a marvelous report. And she said to me afterward that she had been told that women are to keep silence in the churches, and she felt that she certainly ought not to stand at the pulpit. Well, I told her that had nothing in the world. I said, if you got up and started talking in an unknown tongue, I’d have got you down from there in a hurry because that’s what Paul’s talking about. He’s not talking about women being able to speak in church. And I want to say that I believe that women have a right to speak in church. Now, may I say, I do not think women should be ordained in the church as elders are ordained as ministers. I’ve been against that from the beginning.
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Now, this listener heard a Bible teacher say that the theory about the pre-tribulation rapture of the church came from a young girl who prophesied during a tongues meeting and that Dr. Schofield, who was writing his commentaries on the Bible, picked it up and propagated it. He went on to say that the early church did not believe in two comings of Christ, one for the church and the other for judgment reign of Christ. She says, could you please explain these comments?
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And I’m very happy to do that because there are several things said here that are actually totally inaccurate. And I happen to have some firsthand information. Now, the book that this one is referring to, that Dr. Schofield, in writing his, not commentaries, but actually the notes on the Schofield Bible, took it up and propagated it, and then he got it from this woman. And may I say to you that the man who wrote that book, before he wrote his book, because he quotes me in his book. He called me up one morning while I was still pastor of a church in downtown Los Angeles and I was on the way in and I cut him off very well, just cut him right off because I had an appointment at the church And I didn’t have time to argue theology, and certainly not with him, on the telephone. And sure enough, I knew it would come out. I’d be misquoted. And he gave an entirely wrong interpretation of the things that I had said. And it was so brief that he did string it out quite a bit. And if he was inaccurate in that, I knew he could be inaccurate in quoting others. And I happen also to know that Dr. Schofield did not get his idea from a woman. And by the way, this girl you talk about actually was a witch. And Dr. Schofield probably never even heard of her at all. It doesn’t seem to have occurred to the man who wrote the book and this TV personality that Dr. Schofield might have gotten his from the Bible. And the very interesting thing, he didn’t write a commentary. These are notes that he puts in his Bible. And therefore, it would seem to me you ought to give him credit for getting his notes from the passage of Scripture that it is under and that he didn’t get it from this woman. And certainly he did not. And unfortunately, there are few people that pick this up, and apparently this TV personality has. Now, he has made a statement, and I know he made this statement because I was listening to that very program. In fact, I was listening to a newscast, and when they put on the commercial, I generally go around and see what’s on the other channels and this was on another channel. So I stayed with it until he explained this in a very casual way. In fact, a very casual way. And he mentioned the fact that the early church did not believe in two comings of Christ. And I want to say that I do not believe in two comings of Christ. I do wish these people would get the rapture accurate. The coming of Christ where it says that his feet are going to touch the Mount of Olives and that this same Jesus that you’ve seen going to heaven is going to come in like manners you’ve seen him go. That’s not the rapture of the church at all. The rapture of the church, he doesn’t even come to the earth. The rapture is not a coming of Christ, it’s a going of the church. It’s the church leaving the earth and it meets Him in the air. Now how far up, I don’t know. But we happen to know there’s a lot of space out there. And I’m of the opinion that the church is going to travel a long ways before it meets the Lord Jesus. That’s not the second coming of Christ at all. The second coming is when He comes to establish His kingdom. And it hasn’t anything in the world to do with the rapture.
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A Canadian listener writes about a booklet he read that said that Jesus could have sinned when he was tempted by Satan in the wilderness. He said, Could one who holds such a doctrine be held to the standard of 2 John and be labeled as one who does not hold to the doctrine of Christ?
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Very frankly, I do not imagine that he holds this as being an important doctrine, whoever you’re referring to. I had this question up some time ago, and I’ll give you my abridged edition as the way that I understand it. The person of the Lord Jesus Christ is a person that is the most wonderful that’s ever been on this earth. He was both God and man, and He was not any less God because He was man, and He was not any more man because He was God. The humanity that He had was a perfect humanity. And he could not sin. Absolutely, he could not. Now, of course, the second question that follows is a natural one. Then why was he tempted? He wasn’t tempted to see if he would fall. He was tempted to prove he could not fall. That was the purpose of the testing. Now, the illustration that I use, and I’ll give that and then pass on to another question, is when I was a boy in West Texas, we were on a branch line of the Santa Fe that came down from Amarillo down to Sweetwater, Texas. And we lived in a little place called Burnham. And now don’t look for it because it’s not on the map anymore. Burnham disappeared. It didn’t make it. All of us that were there, we finally left. We waked up and left. But it was right on the east fork of the Brazos River. And that Brazos River, in wintertime, you could float a battleship in it. But in summertime, there wasn’t enough water in it to rust a shingle nail. It was really up and down. Well, the Santa Fe had a bridge across it. One year, we really had a rain. We had rains. and it washed out the wooden bridge of the Santa Fe. So they came in and they put up a steel bridge. It took them a long time to do it. And then one day we heard two engines whistling. And in Burnham, the whistle of one engine was an event. And believe me, the whistle of two engines was really some event. So all of us that lived in the town of Burnham, we rushed down to this new railroad bridge, for that’s where the whistling is coming from. Well, all 27 of us went down and one of the more brazen citizens, he went up to the engineer there that had built the bridge and he said to him, What are you doing? And the engineer said, We’re testing the bridge. And this citizen of our little town said, What’s the matter? You think it would fall down? And this engineer said, Of course it will not fall down. We are merely proving and showing that it can’t fall down. You see, the purpose of that testing of that bridge was not to tear the thing down or to cause it to fall in. The purpose of the testing was to prove that it was the kind of bridge that the Santa Fe said it was. And after that, all of us citizens, when we left Burnham finally, why, we could ride on the Santa Fe over the bridge and feel perfectly at ease that it wasn’t going to fall down. Now, I have a Savior today who was tempted in all points, but sent apart. He could not sin. And I thank God for that.
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Now this listener in Largo, Florida has a question about the star the wise men followed as recorded in Matthew chapter 2. She says, It would seem to me that the star the wise men followed must have been only a few hundred feet above the home of Jesus to find it. Is that right? And I have trouble with your calling it a western star. Could you explain?
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All right, let’s come back to this and if we can look at actually at the geography of this entire incident, I think that we’ll understand what I meant by saying it’s a western star. You understand that it has been called an eastern star. There’s a poem about the eastern star. There is, I think, a song about the eastern star. Well, my point is that it ought not to be labeled an eastern star. Now, whether it was a hundred feet or a hundred light years above the earth, I’m not arguing that point at all. I’m saying that these men were in the east. They were east of Jerusalem, east of Israel. And personally, I frankly think that some of them came from as far away as India and maybe China. And they were a couple of years getting there, as we’ve indicated in our Bible study. And they apparently met at a certain place and there were, I think, probably around 300. Now, what direction did these men come? when they came to Jerusalem from where they were. Well, they traveled west. Why did they travel west? Because for them, they saw the star in the west. I don’t care how many feet you want to put it above the earth, they came west. because it was in the west. And instead of calling it an eastern star, to be accurate, it should be called a western star. Now that’s the only point that I was making at that particular juncture. The second thing that apparently I did not make clear, or at least you did not get it, that I consider the star supernatural and I think I went into this that always at Christmas time somebody comes forward, generally an astronomer, that this must have been the star they saw because at this season of the year Venus is very bright or two stars are in conjunction and they shine out and all that sort of thing. Well, to me that’s just perfect nonsense because that’s not what the Bible is saying. The Word of God, whether you believe it or not, is saying it’s a supernatural star. Now, that star brought them to Jerusalem, and at Jerusalem they did not know where to go. And so they asked there, and old Herod called in the scribes, and the scribes knew the Scriptures, it’s going to be Bethlehem. Now, these wise men still are not sure, but when they came out, and started toward Bethlehem, the star appeared. And I’m confident at that time, the star was close enough to indicate to them. Now, to tell the truth, the star, I think, just brought them to Bethlehem. And I’m of the opinion that they wouldn’t have to go from house to house. There was a public place there, the inn, where you could get information. And the innkeeper could have very well said, well, there’s a couple out There in the cave, back of the inn, where we keep the cattle, they’re spending the night there, and we understand a baby’s been born there. That could have happened like that. Or it could be, as you have said, that it just stood there. a few hundred feet above the place. And I’m willing to accept that. But the point is that it was a Western star, and that seems to have troubled you. And we must understand that at the beginning, when they saw the star, it was in the West. Because if it had been in the East, they would have ended up in China.
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We now turn to a question from a listener in Highland Heights, Kentucky. He says, If the church is raptured, as stated in 1 Thessalonians 4.13-18, and the saints who had died were raised from the dead, the first resurrection, how can the tribulation saints of Revelation 20 have a part in this first resurrection?
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I’m turning to the 20th of Revelation where it says in verse 4, And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them. And I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God. and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads or in their hands. And they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years, and the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished.” This is the first resurrection. Now, we have an order of resurrection given to us in 1 Corinthians 15, and I’d like to turn to that and read that in your hearing because I think it’ll help us with that. After Paul, in 1 Corinthians, sets forth the resurrection, and I think an unanswerable argument that you can’t explain the presence of the church in the world, You can’t explain the zeal of these men that were cowards before and ran for cover, who are now brave and are standing out and preaching the gospel without the resurrection. And Paul now concludes this by saying in verse 20 of 1 Corinthians 15, he says, But now is Christ risen from the dead, And he become the first fruits of them that slept. For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. For as in Adam all die, even in Christ shall all be made alive. That is, those that are in Christ. But every man in his own order, Christ the first fruits, afterward they that are Christ that is coming. Now that’s the rapture. So there’s an order of resurrection here. And if you keep reading on down, you will find out that after the thousand years, why, death is to be destroyed because the last ones are raised in judgment. And the tribulation saints, They are saved and they are part of the first resurrection. There’s an order in resurrection. Fact of the matter is, Daniel 12 indicates that immediately after the tribulation that the Old Testament saints are raised. That’s part of the first resurrection. And there’s an order, as Paul says, afterward, they that are Christ’s, it is coming. So that it’s very important to see that. And therefore, the resurrection of the saved is the first resurrection. The resurrection of the lost is the second resurrection.
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Finally, we come to a question from a listener in College Place, Washington, who says, Would you please explain the difference between the terms sin and transgression, as used in 1 John 3, verse 4?
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And I’d be very happy to do that, and he gives me a verse of Scripture to use, and that is 1 John, the third chapter, and the fourth verse. And I think probably I ought to use that. Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law. For sin is the transgression of the law. Now, you see that difference between transgression and sin is simply this. Before God gave the Ten Commandments, Cain killed his brother Abel, and God did not execute him at all. In fact, God more or less protected him. Wasn’t it wrong to kill his brother? It certainly was. But there was no law that said anything about it. And when the Ten Commandments were given, God says, thou shall not kill. And now, that’s a sin, not only sin, but a transgression. But sin was not a transgression until a law was given. Let me give another illustration of that, and this one not from the Bible. When I was a pastor in Nashville, Tennessee, There was a corner by the church where the public walked across the grass. And finally, they put up a fence there, but they put up a sign. And it says, do not walk on the grass. Now, before the sign is put up, it was wrong to walk on the grass. But it wasn’t a transgression because there’s nothing said about it. It was wrong, but now it’s not only wrong, but you’re breaking a law that makes it a transgression, you see. There has to be a law before sin becomes a transgression, so that sin and transgression can be the same. They are similar, but they are not identical.
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Well, we come again to the end of another question and answer program. We hope that you were stimulated to learn more about today’s topics. To help further your understanding on these issues and many others as well, we have numerous books, booklets, and CDs by Dr. McGee. Many of these items are listed in our resource catalog or by going to our online bookstore. Now, don’t forget to join us this week during the Through the Bible radio program heard Monday through Friday on this station. The Bible bus keeps rolling along chapter by chapter through the whole Word of God. Notes and outlines for each study are available online as a free download or ask to be on the mailing list for the printed booklet version. To receive a copy of our resource catalog or to be placed on the mailing list, give us a call at 1-800-65-BIBLE anytime and leave a voicemail with your name, address, and the call letters of the station. Or if you’d like to speak to one of our staff members, they can be reached Monday through Thursday from 6 a.m. to 3 p.m. Pacific Time. Our online bookstore can be located when you find us on the web at ttb.org. Or you can simply write to Questions and Answers. For those in the U.S., Box 7100, Pasadena, California, 91109. In Canada, Box 25325, London, Ontario, N6C 6B1. Don’t forget to also join our fan page at Facebook.com slash TTB Radio.
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Until this time next week, we hope and pray that our God will answer all your questions and solve all your problems.
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